Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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richisawesome said:
Oh god

Just hooked up my Wii to my XRGB via RGB SCART (pal systems have rgb out). It's not pretty.
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Yes, no 480p via RGB Scart. And the XRGB is mostly a 240p processor. Gamecube looks all wibbly too.

Just use component (dterminal adapter), or go straight to the TV and and let the TV do the scaling?

I found my TV did a better job with the Wii, except for the XRGB's scanlines looking nice.
 
Tain said:
Very frustrating to see a complete lack of coverage on this. I honestly can't imagine it has much less lag than using vsync on a Windows emulator (and most will be stacking that on HDTV lag), but I'd love to see actual test results.
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sixteen-bit said:
Fudoh posted some impressions. I hope this leads to more.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=116536598&postcount=904
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Ouch, yeah, sounds terrible.

I'm always shocked at how so many retro fanatics can't tell when they're playing with horrible input lag. If I play Mega Man on a laggy emulator I play so much worse and I can tell how my timing is completely off, no-death runs become nearly impossible.



Lettuce said:
Yeah the NESRGB is a thing of beauty!. Fit them to about 6 NES systems now, and the picture quality is outstanding.....

i86GvSxPlYmvT.JPEG


If anyone in the UK is wanting the mod done i can offer my services
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Beautiful. Are you doing these mods on PAL systems? I'm in Europe, but I'm a bit torn on whether I'd want the mod on an NTSC or PAL NES. More than half of my carts are PAL. It's just difficult and expensive to get my hands on NTSC carts for the most part, although I'd love to just be done with PAL, but what can I say...
 
jarosh said:
Beautiful. Are you doing these mods on PAL systems? I'm in Europe, but I'm a bit torn on whether I'd want the mod on an NTSC or PAL NES. More than half of my carts are PAL. It's just difficult and expensive to get my hands on NTSC carts for the most part, although I'd love to just be done with PAL, but what can I say...
Click to expand...

I'm in a PAL land, and I went with NTSC. I didn't see the point in forking out for the RGB mod if it was still going to be plagued by slowdown and bordered screens. With the lockout pin cut, most of my PAL games still work anyway, and for those that don't, I got an Everdrive.

I've never played NES so much in my life since I took that plunge.
 
jarosh said:
Beautiful. Are you doing these mods on PAL systems? I'm in Europe, but I'm a bit torn on whether I'd want the mod on an NTSC or PAL NES. More than half of my carts are PAL. It's just difficult and expensive to get my hands on NTSC carts for the most part, although I'd love to just be done with PAL, but what can I say...
Click to expand...

Aren't there region-free and 50/60Hz mods for the NES?
 
jarosh said:
Beautiful. Are you doing these mods on PAL systems? I'm in Europe, but I'm a bit torn on whether I'd want the mod on an NTSC or PAL NES. More than half of my carts are PAL. It's just difficult and expensive to get my hands on NTSC carts for the most part, although I'd love to just be done with PAL, but what can I say...
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Don't do PAL man, very few games were adjusted for PAL on the NES, most were just the NTSC roms running too slow, and will then run correctly on an NTSC system anyway.

Khaz said:
Aren't there region-free and 50/60Hz mods for the NES?
Click to expand...
No, the PAL NES is a much bigger change from the NTSC one than most PAL consoles (which usually use basically the same parts underclocked). PAL NES has a different PPU I believe, and a different timing crystal.
 
jarosh said:
Beautiful. Are you doing these mods on PAL systems? I'm in Europe, but I'm a bit torn on whether I'd want the mod on an NTSC or PAL NES. More than half of my carts are PAL. It's just difficult and expensive to get my hands on NTSC carts for the most part, although I'd love to just be done with PAL, but what can I say...
Click to expand...

I would strongly suggest you get the NTSC NES modded, it just looks sooo much better, full screen and the games run at their correct speed. I just this weekend modded a member's PAL NES over at the shmups forum, and plugging it through my XRGB-mini (setting the display to 576p/50hz) with scanlines it just didnt look as impressive as the NTSC NES games...i wish i had taken some screen grabs.

I can make your NTSC region free if you like, but i must add some PAL games you play on it may have slight graphically glitches, but the majority of them run fine. I can mod either PAL or NTSC if you like.
 
Lettuce said:
Never been a fan of the toploader, always liked the Frontloader as to me that WAS the NES.

What prices are you seeing?
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Well, a decent condition top loading famicom is £100 or so, and the RGB mod is likely the same again on top. So, £200 roughly. I guess I could get it done in two stages.

But then there's the dilemna of trusting someone with it to RGB mod it.

or i could just get a toploader already modded for half the price.

edit: or not. fuck they're expensive pre-modded.
 
Peagles said:
I'm in a PAL land, and I went with NTSC. I didn't see the point in forking out for the RGB mod if it was still going to be plagued by slowdown and bordered screens. With the lockout pin cut, most of my PAL games still work anyway, and for those that don't, I got an Everdrive.

I've never played NES so much in my life since I took that plunge.
Click to expand...

D.Lo said:
Don't do PAL man, very few games were adjusted for PAL on the NES, most were just the NTSC roms running too slow, and will then run correctly on an NTSC system anyway.

No, the PAL NES is a much bigger change from the NTSC one than most PAL consoles (which usually use basically the same parts underclocked). PAL NES has a different PPU I believe, and a different timing crystal.
Click to expand...

Lettuce said:
I would strongly suggest you get the NTSC NES modded, it just looks sooo much better, full screen and the games run at their correct speed. I just this weekend modded a member's PAL NES over at the shmups forum, and plugging it through my XRGB-mini (setting the display to 576p/50hz) with scanlines it just didnt look as impressive as the NTSC NES games...i wish i had taken some screen grabs.

I can make your NTSC region free if you like, but i must add some PAL games you play on it may have slight graphically glitches, but the majority of them run fine. I can mod either PAL or NTSC if you like.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you guys are right. I'll go with an NTSC system. I'm well aware of how many PAL games play just fine on a region free NTSC system and also of some of the potential glitches with others. I've played PAL games on an NTSC clone system and NTSC games on my region free PAL NES as well.

I'll shoot you a pm, Lettuce!
 
richisawesome said:
Well, a decent condition top loading famicom is £100 or so, and the RGB mod is likely the same again on top. So, £200 roughly. I guess I could get it done in two stages.

But then there's the dilemna of trusting someone with it to RGB mod it.

or i could just get a toploader already modded for half the price.

edit: or not. fuck they're expensive pre-modded.
Click to expand...

Yeah, GameTechUS wants like £250 odd for a top loader pre modded, i wouldnt ask that much
 
jarosh said:
I'll shoot you a pm, Lettuce!
Click to expand...

Replied. at this rate im going to have to source some more NTSC frontloaders.

Whilst im also on the subject i can also do, Megadrive 1 & 2 single 50/60hz Region selector switch, SNES Mini RGB amp mod & N64 RGB amp mod for anyone whos in the UK and probably Europe as well
 
richisawesome said:
Well, a decent condition top loading famicom is £100 or so, and the RGB mod is likely the same again on top. So, £200 roughly. I guess I could get it done in two stages.

But then there's the dilemna of trusting someone with it to RGB mod it.

or i could just get a toploader already modded for half the price.

edit: or not. fuck they're expensive pre-modded.
Click to expand...

I may have gotten super lucky, but I snagged top loader in very nice condition with 2 dog bones (no cables though) for $69 shipped from Amazon marketplace. I would watch the Amazon used listings to see if another pops up that low. I actually just shipped it off to HaL64 for RGB modding. Can't wait to get that sucker back, but once I do I'll have spent about $269 in total which isn't all that bad. You could definitely stay under $300.
 
Yes, no 480p via RGB Scart. And the XRGB is mostly a 240p processor. Gamecube looks all wibbly too.

Just use component (dterminal adapter), or go straight to the TV and and let the TV do the scaling?

I found my TV did a better job with the Wii, except for the XRGB's scanlines looking nice.
Click to expand...

I settled to using the XRGB Mini for 240P content and a DVDO Edge for 480P and above.

I don't have that many PS1/2 games so 480i is not an issue for me... Yet.
 
richisawesome said:
Well, a decent condition top loading famicom is £100 or so, and the RGB mod is likely the same again on top. So, £200 roughly. I guess I could get it done in two stages.

But then there's the dilemna of trusting someone with it to RGB mod it.

or i could just get a toploader already modded for half the price.

edit: or not. fuck they're expensive pre-modded.
Click to expand...
I don't want to come across as a shill, but Baphomet did a fantastic job on mine. His pricing for the mod work was on par with everyone else's, if not cheaper.

So, how about that 24? Is President Heller dead? I mean he must be, right!

mikespit1200 said:
I may have gotten super lucky, but I snagged top loader in very nice condition with 2 dog bones (no cables though) for $69 shipped from Amazon marketplace. I would watch the Amazon used listings to see if another pops up that low. I actually just shipped it off to HaL64 for RGB modding. Can't wait to get that sucker back, but once I do I'll have spent about $269 in total which isn't all that bad. You could definitely stay under $300.
Click to expand...

Hal 64 also did excellent work for me. Again, don't want to be a shill, but you have options, Richie!
 
I stumbled upon this guy's videos recently when I first decided to research and get into the RGB scene. I appreciate his enthusiasm but I've come to the conclusion that he's a bit off about things - though it could be a matter of preference, like how some people will use an upscaler to their HDTV and be content with it. For me, I've become obsessed with natural scanlines and 240p.
 
Adam Blue said:
I stumbled upon this guy's videos recently when I first decided to research and get into the RGB scene. I appreciate his enthusiasm but I've come to the conclusion that he's a bit off about things - though it could be a matter of preference, like how some people will use an upscaler to their HDTV and be content with it. For me, I've become obsessed with natural scanlines and 240p.
Click to expand...

I think we have recently talked about this very thing in relation to that specific person in this thread or one of the other retro games threads. There is nothing wrong with people choosing to go the upscaler route, or the direct CRT route. Each choice has it's benefit. That specific person has videos that have things outright wrong or misrepresented though, not related to personal preference.
 
televator said:
Anybody see Adam's new vid on RGB?

I think he's getting worse on the topic. His comments on s-vid cables and upscaling are... not accurate. Never really backs up what he says. He craps on CRT, then trots out that shyte upscaler again. And then seals the deal with busted ass video captures.
Click to expand...
Is that the same dude who wrote this piece of garbage?

TL;DR: That dude actually tried to plug a Spectrum onto a Samsung via RF with a RF amp. Only then thought about better cables... and a scaler. (and no one who does his homework buys a Samsung for gaming)

He then proceeded to take photos of the RF bullshit against the RGB cable+upscaler... And attributed most of the quality difference to the damn scaler, this scaler has no brand, it's not even a lenkeng and wasn't all that cheap.

Can't really say anything useful about the scaler like if it supports 240p accurately or not, because he doesn't know what that is, talks about some motion blur but blames the console because the scaler must rock some soxorz and show's us a Mega Drive game running in 16:9 (wow dude)

And he says:

"(...) it's a real Mega Drive finally being displayed properly on an HD TV."

in 16:9? You dimwit! (he's only forgiven if he has the same TV as antibolo, but I never seen a Samsung that doesn't do 4:3 with pillarboxes)


Then he proceeds to talk about game mode dragging PS3 Uncharted into the mix... because? and talking as if the upscaler he purchased had no lag against everything the Samsung did and could for the most part be switched off. Then he concludes saying that he can actually turn the game mode to "off" while using it because it's not as bad as Uncharted or something. Yes, he just wrote paragraphs explaining game mode badly and why it's important, only to say, "but I can get away with it switched off, so happy!"

I bet this bloke didn't even rename the HDMI port to [PC] on that Samsung which is Picture-Quality-101 first rule on a Samsung.
 
Here's something I've been thinking about...

So, I want the best IQ for all of my consoles. Though, the PS2, like the Dreamcast, seemed to be made at a time when there was a switch from SD to HD.

For example, I test with my favorite PS2 game, Gradius V. It does not do 480p, like some PS2 games do (back at release I had a nice 27" SD CRT then soon after switched to a 32" HD CRT- it looked fine). It doesn't look good on an HDTV. I used a mod/hack to force the game into 480p. Still looked bad.

I use a PVM for my retro consoles, and while the scart cable is en route, Gradius V seems to look better with composite, unless it's just the scanlines helping out. Is GV 240p? Were games during this time (early 2000s) made with scanlines in mind? I'm considering getting two PS2s - one for 480p games on my HDTV and another for non-480p (240p?) on my PVM.

I feel the same way about the Dreamcast and VGA, but haven't done enough testing yet.

What is everyone's thoughts on that?
 
There are very few 240p ps2 games. The ones that don't output 480p output 480i, and in no situation would 480i ever be the better choice.

Also gradius V looks great in 480p, so I'm not sure what you're doing exactly.
 
I'd have to double-check, but I'd wager that Gradius V is 480i. 480i games are more common on PS2 than any other mainstream console, and they're the hardest to get right on flat panel TVs.

Check all of the links in the "240p Gaming" section of the OP for some visual examples and how 480i differs from 240p. 480i looks fine on a CRT because CRTs are actually capable of alternating fields on every frame. Flat panels and upscalers aren't, though the Framemeister will do a better job at handling that kind of signal than virtually any other kind of progressive scan equipment.

Dreamcast VGA can be tricky to convert to HDMI (making sure that the horizontal resolution is converted properly is the hardest part, as DC VGA is 640x480 active pixels in a 720x480 frame), but if you have something that does it properly then it should look fine on a flatscreen.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I'd have to double-check, but I'd wager that Gradius V is 480i. 480i games are more common on PS2 than any other mainstream console, and they're the hardest to get right on flat panel TVs.

Check all of the links in the "240p Gaming" section of the OP for some visual examples and how 480i differs from 240p. 480i looks fine on a CRT because CRTs are actually capable of alternating fields on every frame. Flat panels and upscalers aren't, though the Framemeister will do a better job at handling that kind of signal than virtually any other kind of progressive scan equipment.
Click to expand...

I think that may be my (personal) problem then, that 480i just doesn't cut it on a flatscreen. I'm just really curious if the games made in 480i were intended to have scanlines. As scientifically accurate as I want to be with getting the best possible IQ, I guess there will always be some variance based on personal preference.
 
"Intended" is always a dangerous choice of words. I think it's impossible to determine whether contemporary TVs and formats handled games in a manner truly "intended" by the developer, whether the game itself is ultimately a compromised work that doesn't look as good as the designers wanted it to be in the first place, or whether the designers even considered any of this at all. I mean, if you get down to it, it's hard to argue that any sloppy console port of an arcade game or bad port between multiple consoles were the intended ways to experience some games in any capacity. And then there's the whole PAL section of the globe, which had to suffer through janky but officially licensed 50hz bootlegs for decades as far as I'm concerned.

But more to your specific point, I don't think 480i games will have "scanlines" on a CRT in the same sense that 240p games would. But they often would have a faint scanlike-esque flicker effect as each field fades in and out. If I'm not mistaken, anyway. The one CRT TV I still have laying around here doesn't really produce very visible scanlines for anything at all.
 
^wholly agreed on the murkiness of "intended", i recall seeing arguments for bubble screen filters on emulators here once when that line was taken a bit too far
 
jarosh said:
Ouch, yeah, sounds terrible.

I'm always shocked at how so many retro fanatics can't tell when they're playing with horrible input lag. If I play Mega Man on a laggy emulator I play so much worse and I can tell how my timing is completely off, no-death runs become nearly impossible.
Click to expand...

Played extensively with the Retron5 and while I have a few (minor) issues with it, lag is definitely NOT an issue on my setup, and I've had my share of Mega Man to compare. Fudoh mentions this as well that it should be ok on a fast TV...
 
I wanna see the receipts.

I don't trust anyone with regard to what they "feel" when it comes to input lag anymore. It's frustratingly evident that the average schmo either can't feel shit or has been playing on shitty setups for so long that they have no idea how games are supposed to feel in the first place. The Wii U was on the market for a year and a half and AFAIK nobody on GAF kicked up a fuss about how shitty the Gamepad is for Virtual Console games until I made a thread about it.

Empirical measurements, please. It's gotten to the point where I'm considering hacking up a Sega Genesis multi-tap so that it can function as a signal splitter for a control pad, pair it with a high speed camera and two consoles at the same time, and do all of the practical use case tests between different displays and converters myself.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I wanna see the receipts.

I don't trust anyone with regard to what they "feel" when it comes to input lag anymore. It's frustratingly evident that the average schmo either can't feel shit or has been playing on shitty setups for so long that they have no idea how games are supposed to feel in the first place.
Click to expand...

Well I suggest you try it out for yourself then, based on other comments on shmup forums among others people don't see any more lag from a Retron5 then the xrgb-mini. So if you're one of the few who already feel on the very minute lag an xrgb-mini introduces is a problem, then I don't think you will EVER be pleased period. All I can say, as someone who has played these games throughout the years they do not feel off, and they play great on my setup.
 
The problem is people use those sorts of qualitative descriptions (plays fine to me, etc) about devices which often turn out to have hideous input lag. So for those who are concerned about it, empirical measurement is key.
 
I'm looking into picking up flash carts for NES, Genesis, SNES, and N64. Any particular recommendations for specific models or online stores? I know the Everdrive line is popular but I'm pretty ignorant on options in general, and some stores seem to charge quite a bit extra for anything but the board.

Also, anything I should know about the Nomad before picking one up? Does it use the same AC adapter and AV cables as the model 2 Genesis?
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I wanna see the receipts.

I don't trust anyone with regard to what they "feel" when it comes to input lag anymore. It's frustratingly evident that the average schmo either can't feel shit or has been playing on shitty setups for so long that they have no idea how games are supposed to feel in the first place. The Wii U was on the market for a year and a half and AFAIK nobody on GAF kicked up a fuss about how shitty the Gamepad is for Virtual Console games until I made a thread about it.

Empirical measurements, please. It's gotten to the point where I'm considering hacking up a Sega Genesis multi-tap so that it can function as a signal splitter for a control pad, pair it with a high speed camera and two consoles at the same time, and do all of the practical use case tests between different displays and converters myself.
Click to expand...

I get it. I know it may sound arrogant to some, but I know where you're coming from. Unless I've seen/tested it for myself, I tend to take these "subjective measurements" with a huge grain of salt these days. Been burned too many times.

Here's a crazy example:

Most people don't know this, but the majority of Windows computers have insane audio lag in games, the kind that is independent from sound card or on-board audio, from drivers or other tangible or measurable hardware differences. (Naturally this isn't the case with ASIO drivers, but these are only used in audio production and not in games.)

I have tested over 10 computers, two of which I built myself, I have written my own tool to measure audio lag vs. input lag. The typical audio lag in games (likely DirectX related) I measured is 12 frames at 60 fps (= 200 ms). Only on Macs have I consistently encountered <1 frame (16 ms) of audio lag with the same tool. And there's one Windows computer I built myself that only showed 2 frames of lag. Otherwise, anything from Samsung i7 laptops with Realtek on-board audio to custom built i5 and i3 desktops with dedicated sound cards or even external USB audio interfaces have shown between 7 and 12 frames of lag (all running Win 7 64 bit). But 12 frames (200 ms) is the most common lag I encountered.

This can be seen/heard and tested in everything from NES emulators to indie games like Hotline Miami to AAA games like Far Cry 2 etc. As long as it's running on a Windows 7 computer. So I suspect it's DirectX related. The hardware configuration doesn't seem to matter. I have no idea why a single Windows machine I tested only showed 2 frames of audio lag. It has the same on-board audio and driver, CPU and even a very similar mainboard to another system that shows 12 frames of lag.

So, in conclusion, we're all playing PC games or emulated games on a PC with insane audio lag of up to 200 ms and no one seems to care. If you play a Mega Man game in your emulator of choice (on a Windows machine) and you fire the mega buster you'll have to wait for up to 12 frames before you hear the sound effect. Only under Mac OS X are you guaranteed an audio lag free gaming experience.

For what it's worth, I've researched this extensively online but have not found that anyone really talks about it or cares.
 
Khaz said:
DirectX is responsible for a significant part of the input lag experienced. It also annoys the maker of the PC-Engine emulator Ootake, who complains about it on his website. He s specifically talking about the input part of DirectX but I wouldn't be surprised if every part of DirectX induced some lag.

http://www.ouma.jp/ootake/delay.html
http://www.ouma.jp/ootake/delay-win7vista.html
http://www.ouma.jp/ootake/delay-solution.html
Click to expand...

Yeah, input lag is generally better documented and I've read of these problems in the past. Such a shame...

But if you think about it, we're all concerned with a meager 1 or 2 frames of input lag here, me included (and they absolutely DO matter, don't get me wrong), and yet the audio lag I've encountered is an insane 200 ms / 12 frames. I've been gaming on that anomalous "2 ms audio lag PC" I mentioned above for years and only noticed this problem when trying out some games on another computer. I have no idea how everyone is putting up with this.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
Also, anything I should know about the Nomad before picking one up? Does it use the same AC adapter and AV cables as the model 2 Genesis?
Click to expand...

Yes, it uses the same AC adapter.

As for AV cables, also yes, HOWEVER raw sync RGB cables don't work with the Nomad, if you plug one, the image becomes garbled on both the built-in screen and the output. You'll need a composite-as-sync RGB cable if you want to get RGB out of it.

I don't recommend buying a Nomad unless it's one that's been modded with a modern screen. They're expensive but definitely worth it, you can actually see what's happening on the screen and the battery life is greatly improved.
 
antibolo said:
Yes, it uses the same AC adapter.

As for AV cables, also yes, HOWEVER raw sync RGB cables don't work with the Nomad, if you plug one, the image becomes garbled on both the built-in screen and the output. You'll need a composite-as-sync RGB cable if you want to get RGB out of it.

I don't recommend buying a Nomad unless it's one that's been modded with a modern screen. They're expensive but definitely worth it, you can actually see what's happening on the screen and the battery life is greatly improved.
Click to expand...

Are there any common problems with resolution, aspect ratio, or refresh rate on new replacement screens?
 
Got my 8-pin mini DIN extension lead today!!!!!!!!


...it doesn't work. Ah well. I have an amiga somewhere that has that port, I think.
 
jarosh said:
I get it. I know it may sound arrogant to some, but I know where you're coming from. Unless I've seen/tested it for myself, I tend to take these "subjective measurements" with a huge grain of salt these days. Been burned too many times.

Here's a crazy example:

Most people don't know this, but the majority of Windows computers have insane audio lag in games, the kind that is independent from sound card or on-board audio, from drivers or other tangible or measurable hardware differences. (Naturally this isn't the case with ASIO drivers, but these are only used in audio production and not in games.)

I have tested over 10 computers, two of which I built myself, I have written my own tool to measure audio lag vs. input lag. The typical audio lag in games (likely DirectX related) I measured is 12 frames at 60 fps (= 200 ms). Only on Macs have I consistently encountered <1 frame (16 ms) of audio lag with the same tool. And there's one Windows computer I built myself that only showed 2 frames of lag. Otherwise, anything from Samsung i7 laptops with Realtek on-board audio to custom built i5 and i3 desktops with dedicated sound cards or even external USB audio interfaces have shown between 7 and 12 frames of lag (all running Win 7 64 bit). But 12 frames (200 ms) is the most common lag I encountered.

This can be seen/heard and tested in everything from NES emulators to indie games like Hotline Miami to AAA games like Far Cry 2 etc. As long as it's running on a Windows 7 computer. So I suspect it's DirectX related. The hardware configuration doesn't seem to matter. I have no idea why a single Windows machine I tested only showed 2 frames of audio lag. It has the same on-board audio and driver, CPU and even a very similar mainboard to another system that shows 12 frames of lag.

So, in conclusion, we're all playing PC games or emulated games on a PC with insane audio lag of up to 200 ms and no one seems to care. If you play a Mega Man game in your emulator of choice (on a Windows machine) and you fire the mega buster you'll have to wait for up to 12 frames before you hear the sound effect. Only under Mac OS X are you guaranteed an audio lag free gaming experience.

For what it's worth, I've researched this extensively online but have not found that anyone really talks about it or cares.
Click to expand...

That audio latency is only because of how the game chooses to output sound, if they used WASAPI it would be much less.
 
Anyone have any experience with a SNES SCART cable to a HDMI convert box with a SNES? I just ordered them both, heard really good things.
 
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