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[Dilbert]

You kind of / maybe proved #3 (didn't Romero just do level designs?). Why did you bother quoting the other 2?

Yeah, and when you read the interview, he says that he was an inspiration, but doesn't mention specific games or specific features of games.

I've read enough from Leondexter already to know that his shelf life here is going to be limited. Not worth my time.

Edit: Oops, you just said the same thing...

 

[Version 3.0]

Leondexter, before there was SMB there was this little game called Adventure for the 2600 that had "enclosed level/goal-based progression/hidden area/secret powerup gameplay". I'm not disputing that SMB was not influential but compared to Doom there's no comparison.

I know, but Adventure was largely ignored, and isn't much like SMB or Doom in design anyway. Wolfenstein did everything Doom did first, but wasn't as influential, so 'first' hasn't got much to do with it.

Doom accomplished:

1. Ignited the 3D revolution that is still evolving to this day as technology evolves

That's nothing compared to reviving the entire console industry.

2. Put the FPS genre on the map which still holds a dominant presence to this very day

Big deal. Every genre was popularized by a key game. SMB is one of those, too.

3. Introduced "controversial" content that proved to the VG industry that not only is it acceptable but quite profitable as well (and to a certain degree the ESRB rating system is now a result there of)

Wolfenstein did it first, and Mortal Kombat is the game that got all the attention there. Doom was a second-rate backup argument in that whole spectacle.

4. Multiplayer gaming. It single handedly coined the phrase "deathmatch" which is still widely used to this day. If it ain't broke don't fix it, right? Not only that, it spawned a whole new and almost mandatory component to the FPS genre. Anything less than is considered unacceptable by the undying FPS fanbase.

Yes and no. Multiplayer gaming was old by the time Doom arrived. I mean, Combat on the Atari was nothing BUT 'deathmatch'--it had no single player at all. But Doom brought a great new feel to it, put it online, and made it "cool". It was definitely a groundbreaker in the online play arena.

5. Helped develop the concept of a "mod community" by embracing homebrew levels, maps, gameplay modifications, creation tools and the like. Many genres have now adopted this very concept that is widely practiced to this day.

Yes, that's a good one.

6. Oops, almost forgot. Caused a serious surge in PC purchases when it first came out. We're talking about $2000+ machines here, not $200 NES's. I highly doubt a game like SMB would move $2000 hardware like Doom did.

Two things here. First, there's little proof of what you say. PC sales didn't spike with Doom. They were comparitively low at the time until a little thing called the Internet arrived. And Doom on the various consoles sold only moderately well--if it can't move a $300 Playstation, how did it move a $2000 PC? I think you're overestimating.

And secondly, SMB is the single best-selling game of all time. Just its first version outsold all versions of Doom combined, and it's been re-released a few times since, to outstanding numbers each time. It just sold another million in re-re-re-release on the GBA (micro).

Again, I'm not disputing your claim that SMB is influential but the game has done little outside of it's own genre to help propel the industry forward and branch out. Doom has had more of an affect on video gaming if only you were to look at today's requirements of what a game offers.

"Requirements" is a strong word. To this day, online play is not in most games, multiplayer is not in most games, mature content is not in most games, etc, etc. Doom did a lot, but SMB trumps it. I'll say it once more--Doom itself was influenced by SMB. That right there should end the discussion.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Cool. I can see the argument for it definately.

It makes sense that the West would laud the archetype FPS too.

I'm just sick of them at the moment. Bad ones I mean.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

That's nothing compared to reviving the entire console industry.

:lol :lol :lol

Dude...:lol ....sorry, but... :lol ...that's fucking ridiculous right there. I don't know where you got the idea that SMB 'revived' the industry. It was part of a revival in the console market, but games still went on after the A2600 and the others fell by the wayside.

 

[cubicle47b]

That's nothing compared to reviving the entire console industry.

Nintendo's business model (distribution and quality control) did that.

And Doom on the various consoles sold only moderately well--if it can't move a $300 Playstation, how did it move a $2000 PC? I think you're overestimating.

Doom on consoles came out well after the PC version (PSX version was '96, lacked online matches, and wasn't groundbreaking by that time).

 

[Flynn]

Not to mention that Doom has influence the look of pretty much every "mature" game since. Take the cover of any metal album from the 80s add a NIN soundtrack and you've got the art direction of 90% of modern games.

Doom is a pretty good choice for most influential -- mostly because if found the LCD of gamers so well.

 

[Sho Nuff]

 

[Dragmire]

What's with all the Doomsayers? Quake was more influential for games. You have to emphasize what's being influenced or it turns into an argument of semantics. No one's playing Doom clones. Why, 'cause there aren't any. Quake was more popular, more copied, and had bigger mod and online scenes. The name 'Doom' has more cultural significance and media significance, but the influence derived from that (culturally, in terms of media or game-wise) is rather objective. Yes, the controversy around it helped to popularize FPS's, but Quake did exactly that and to a greater extent. To suggest Doom is responsible for Quake's popularity and influence is to undermine all the things that Quake is copied for.

And before anyone says the rise of the internet helped Quake accomplish what it did, sure it did. So did the youth of the industry help Super Mario Bros. cause more influence. But it took advantage of it, nonetheless.

 

[TekunoRobby]

HELL YEAH: http://doomworld.com/10years/doomcomic/comic.php?page=0

I'VE GOTTA HANDFUL OF VERTEBRAE AND A HEADFUL OF MAD!

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

What's with all the Doomsayers? Quake was more influential for games. You have to emphasize what's being influenced or it turns into an argument of semantics. No one's playing Doom clones. Why, 'cause there aren't any. Quake was more popular, more copied, and had bigger mod and online scenes. The name 'Doom' has more cultural significance and media significance, but the influence derived from that (culturally, in terms of media or game-wise) is rather objective. Yes, the controversy around it helped to popularize FPS's, but Quake did exactly that and to a greater extent. To suggest Doom is responsible for Quake's popularity and influence is to undermine all the things that Quake is copied for.

And before anyone says the rise of the internet helped Quake accomplish what it did, sure it did. So did the youth of the industry help Super Mario Bros. cause more influence. But it took advantage of it, nonetheless.

You're saying Quake is more influential because it was influenced by Doom. Quake did everything Doom did and did it better, but it's debatable which is more widely known for its innovations. It's SMB3 to SMB1. I would also certainly debate your statement that it had a bigger mod scene. I'd stick with Doom.

 

[shuri]

Two things here. First, there's little proof of what you say. PC sales didn't spike with Doom. They were comparitively low at the time until a little thing called the Internet arrived. And Doom on the various consoles sold only moderately well--if it can't move a $300 Playstation, how did it move a $2000 PC? I think you're overestimating.

There was a saying back in the days that for each id software title, a new generation of hardware was needed. DOOM1-2 = 486, Quake -> p1, quake 2 -> p2, quake3 -> p3

I remember paying 200$ to have 4mb of ram for my pc to play doom at smoothers rates. My friends bugged their parents to buy them a pc for Doom. They bought modems and computers JUST to play Doom (they didnt call BBSes, and that was pre-mainstream internet). Doom was THE action game on PC at the time. Doom was ported to just about every hardware known to mankind.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Nobody's bothered to respond to this, so I'll have to say it again. Doom itself was influenced by Super Mario Bros. All you young'uns are underestimating SMB's influence. I know it's hard to believe that Mario influenced games with guns in them, but it's true.

You don't have to try and convince me that Doom is influential. I fucking know that--read my post (the one with the big picture of my Doom collection in it). All I'm saying is that Mario was bigger. I know he's hateful, but it's the truth.

And I can't believe nobody's defending Pong for starting two industries.

I thought about it-- but I attribute that less to the game, andmore to Bushnell.

*Any* game would have taken off, I think.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Nintendo's business model (distribution and quality control) did that.

And pounding the pavement, selling to retail buyers who had been burned.

So I agree. Game choice was largely irrelevant.

And for Leondexter-- two things:

1) Because a game was influenced by another doesnt make that source game more influential. Even if Doom was influenced by SMB (and I believe it was)-- how does that end the discussion? SMB was influenced by Pac Land-- is that the most influential game, then?

2) Advenure was *not* widelt ignored. Relative to the market, it was a success and spawned quite a few clones and unofficial sequels.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

I am talking influential. I mean what elements did doom put into other games that werent there before. I mean civ did the whole research system, the settling and develop system, tax and science funding system that are still being used to day. Influential =/= popular

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. But, as I said earlier, Civ doesn't even belong in the same discussion as Doom and SMB as far as influence. It did bring a lot of things to the table as far as the startegy genre, and it continues to innovate today, but Civ is the type of game that can't appeal to the mainstream crowd, and thus can't have the same level of influence of Doom or SMB, both of which had far more impact on the industry as a whole than Civ did.

Don't get me wrong, I love Civ, all of them have been great games, and I'm looking forward to IV, but as far as being influential, it's not even close to being in the argument with the other two.

 

[shuri]

How did SMB influence Doom?

 

[sidnotcrazy]

What bothers me is the statement "Doom most influential game ever".
How can this be? In a literal sense Wolfenstein started the fps juggernaut, but it wasn't even the first attempt at this by id software. I will say it was the first highly successful attempt though.

Games like Computer War and Tennis for Two are the earliest attempts of what we now know as a video game. Games like this seem to be the most influential. After all they invented the 'wheel' when it comes to interactive entertainment. Sure Wolfenstein is nice, and the fps shooter craze is very popular. But its not the wheel, it is just a gas powered car IMO.

 

[Xenon]

I think one thing people forget about doom was its qaulity and use of sound effects to create a more believable experience. I still hear those fucking imps in my head.

As many people said before Doom didn't create the fps game. It did however perfect it.(for its time anyway)

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

What bothers me is the statement "Doom most influential game ever".
How can this be? In a literal sense Wolfenstein started the fps juggernaut, but it wasn't even the first attempt at this by id software. I will say it was the first highly successful attempt though.

Games like Computer War and Tennis for Two are the earliest attempts of what we now know as a video game. Games like this seem to be the most influential. After all they invented the 'wheel' when it comes to interactive entertainment. Sure Wolfenstein is nice, and the fps shooter craze is very popular. But its not the wheel, it is just a gas powered car IMO.

Perhaps "directly influential" woudl be clearer.

Yeah, Wolfenstien was a the groundwork for Doom. But Wolfenstien didn't inspire all that movement, Doom did.

 

[Version 3.0]

Yeah, and when you read the interview, he says that he was an inspiration, but doesn't mention specific games or specific features of games.

I've read enough from Leondexter already to know that his shelf life here is going to be limited. Not worth my time.

Edit: Oops, you just said the same thing...

C'mon, jinx, be a man and admit you were wrong. I've given examples of similarities in Doom's design to SMB, and an interview where Romero lists Miyamoto as his design influence. And you still don't have enough information to open your eyes? What do you want, Romero at your front door with a signed statement? Connect the dots.

 

[Version 3.0]

How did SMB influence Doom?

Romero lists Square games and Miyamoto's games as his influence in game design.

Here's what I see coming from SMB: both games have levels that are portions of a larger, continuous 'world'. Each level has a set start and end point, with your primary goal in the game being to get to that end point. Both have collectibles along the way, and baddies in the way as well. Both use the method of gradually introducing stronger enemies throughout the game. Both use hidden areas, and hidden exits to secret levels. They both have the same method of starting you from the beginning with nothing if you die. Etc, etc. Oh yeah, and lava!

You can see a bit of Zelda in there, I suppose, but only the dungeon parts--the keys and the roaming back and forth to use them, and finding new weapons. But Zelda overall is an open world, with your growing abilities determining where you can go in it. Doom has nothing like that in it.

From Square's games, I can see influence in pacing--the tension created by anticipating a random encounter is similar to the 'watch your back' atmosphere in Doom. Or the need to constantly heal your character(s), again creates tension. The use of music to set the mood, although that's hardly unique to either company's games, but it's usually well done in Square's games, and I certainly thought it was well done in Doom.

Stuff like that. If you want elaboration/confirmation, you'd have to ask Romero.

 

[Version 3.0]

Well, I've tallied up the votes, and it looks like USA Today got it right after all. They just forgot two words in their article:

"Doom is considered the most influential game ever on GAF."

:lol

Bedtime for me. G'night, all.

 

[krypt0nian]

Stuff like that. If you want elaboration/confirmation, you'd have to ask Romero.

Something tells me you don't really want anyone to do that. What you're doing is reaching beyond all logic and proclaiming it as fact. BUt since its funny, keep going. :lol

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Most of those things you mention existed in a wide variety of games long before either SMB or Doom. That's a fairly tenuous link at best, imho. It's a link in the sense that many games shared those same features, and that I'm not sure that Doom drew those things from SMB so much as they did from the general video game designs as a whole at the time.

Some of the choices, like levels that begin and end at distinct points for instance, were more of a limitation to technology at the time, rather than a game design choice.

I do know that Romero has stated, on more than one occasion, that he did draw inspiration from Myamoto, but it's hard to say if that inspiration was more in a general sense, or if he actually picked apart levels to include elements in Doom. I'd be more inclined to think it was more of the former.

 

[cubicle47b]

Even then Tom Hall created the game design and initial levels and Carmack created the engine (and simplified the game design). They are responsible for laying out the design elements you're talking about. This guy is possibly the most obtuse poster on GAF.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I think Leondexter is right that there's SMB influence in Doom. I don't know that that has fuck-all to do with which was more directly influential.

I don't think there' much of a reach (except maybe the lava) in his description, although some of those elements are classic game design that predate SMB (gradually introducing more/nastier gameplay elements, particularl), and the trek-through-the-level thing. I mean, Doom is more like Berzerk in some ways than SMB. It would be hard to say Carmack took inspiration for those directly from SMB, or if he just recognized Miyamoto's excellent use of good design concepts. But absolutely on the secrets and hidden side-tasks. That's SMB all day long.

Here's where I am going to try to find the middle ground.

Doom is the single biggest influencer, if limited to a single game.

Miyaomoto is the single biggest influencer, if limited to a single designer.
But most of his inspirations are spread across his history, not concentrated in one big atom-bomb of game-inductry-and-design-changing that Doom represented.

A for the record, I've been gaming since *before* Space Invaders hit, in case the generational argument comes up again.

 

[Krowley]

the thing is, smb's influence was so wide, that it spread into the general ideas about game design pretty quickly. So it's indirectly influencing all kinds of games.

It's like with movies. there are probably lots of film directors that never even watched a D.W Griffith film, but many of the cinematic methods they use where originally pioneered by Griffith and then eventually became part of the standard cinematic language that all films use. Maybe they were influenced directly by Hitchcock or John Ford, but those guys were influenced by Griffith, so his presence hangs over their work. Not trying to say that Griffith is the greatest director ever (he isn't even close) but when you come in early like that, your potential to influence is exaggerated. There’s almost no such thing as a movie that wasn’t influenced by DW Griffith. The same can be said for super Mario brothers and Miyamoto.

It's influence is so pervasive that you almost can't make a game without borrowing one of it's conventions, either directly, or inderectly.

 

[Version 3.0]

Something tells me you don't really want anyone to do that. What you're doing is reaching beyond all logic and proclaiming it as fact. BUt since its funny, keep going. :lol

Let's hear your take on how Miyamoto's game design influenced Romero's. Oh, wait, you don't think it did, even though he said so himself. Isn't that right?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

the thing is, smb's influence was so wide, that it spread into the general ideas about game design pretty quickly. So it's indirectly influencing all kinds of games.

It's like with movies. there are probably lots of film directors that never even watched a D.W Griffith film, but many of the cinematic methods they use where originally pioneered by Griffith and then eventually became part of the standard cinematic language that all films use. Maybe they were influenced directly by Hitchcock or John Ford, but those guys were influenced by Griffith, so his presence hangs over their work. Not trying to say that Griffith is the greatest director ever (he isn't even close) but when you come in early like that, your potential to influence is exaggerated. There’s almost no such thing as a movie that wasn’t influenced by DW Griffith. The same can be said for super Mario brothers and Miyamoto.

It's influence is so pervasive that you almost can't make a game without borrowing one of it's conventions, either directly, or inderectly.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Which is why I keep saying "directly influential." Otherwise, the most influential game (having influenced *all* games afterwards) is Tennis for Two.

 

[Version 3.0]

I think Leondexter is right that there's SMB influence in Doom.

Thanks! Geez, one level-headed guy in this whole forum. If I found a quote of Romero saying "SMB directly influenced Doom", these guys would say that he never used the word 'design', so I'm crazy.

I don't know that that has fuck-all to do with which was more directly influential.

That's my opinion, is all, and I think that one game influencing another gives it a bit of a advantage if they're competing in that regard, wouldn't you say?

I don't think there' much of a reach (except maybe the lava) in his description,

That's a joke, ya know.

Here's where I am going to try to find the middle ground.

Doom is the single biggest influencer, if limited to a single game.

Miyaomoto is the single biggest influencer, if limited to a single designer.
But most of his inspirations are spread across his history, not concentrated in one big atom-bomb of game-inductry-and-design-changing that Doom represented.

A for the record, I've been gaming since *before* Space Invaders hit, in case the generational argument comes up again.

Me, too--since Pong. Nice compromise. I'd say that'd be easy for people to agree with or at least respect, but I'm probably wrong.

No, really--good night!

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

That's a joke, ya know.

I know that's how you meant it, but I have no sense of humor today, so I evaluated it on its own merit!

 

[Dilbert]

the thing is, smb's influence was so wide, that it spread into the general ideas about game design pretty quickly. So it's indirectly influencing all kinds of games.

This sounds reasonable at first glance, but again -- I'm wondering if this isn't a case of the classic logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc. How can you show that there is a DIRECT link between something in the past which was notable and influential and something in the present?

To put it another way: Van Gogh is a famous and inflential painter. Does that mean that every painter since then who has been aware of his work has been necessarily "influenced" by his style?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

This sounds reasonable at first glance, but again -- I'm wondering if this isn't a case of the classic logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc. How can you show that there is a DIRECT link between something in the past which was notable and influential and something in the present?

To put it another way: Van Gogh is a famous and inflential painter. Does that mean that every painter since then who has been aware of his work has been necessarily "influenced" by his style?

No, but I think there are discreet elemets in SMB which are *likely* to have influenced other games, and for which a very strong case could be made.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Doom = Most influential PC game of all time.
SMB = Most influential video game of all time.

I'm all about the compromise!

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Here's a question for you - If Super Mario Bros. never comes out, does DOOM ever get made?

Ponder that for a while.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Here's a question for you - If Super Mario Bros. never comes out, does DOOM ever get made?

Ponder that for a while.

Yes. Yes it does. Done pondering. The PC and video game markets were such different entities then, even more so then now, that I think Doom would certinaly still have been made. After all, the guys who made Doom were just a bunch of computer geeks working together at a different job when they decided to moonlight a bit on their own.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Here's a question for you - If Super Mario Bros. never comes out, does DOOM ever get made?

Ponder that for a while.

Yes, but it's different.

 

[EviLore]

Doom on the various consoles sold only moderately well--if it can't move a $300 Playstation, how did it move a $2000 PC? I think you're overestimating

...what?

And secondly, SMB is the single best-selling game of all time. Just its first version outsold all versions of Doom combined, and it's been re-released a few times since, to outstanding numbers each time. It just sold another million in re-re-re-release on the GBA (micro).

Doom is one of the most downloaded pieces of software ever. An estimated 15 million people have played the original shareware version. Sales figures don't tell the whole story.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

SF2 and Goldeneye(set the standards for fighters and console fps)

 

[Dilbert]

Yes, but it's different.

For instance, the popular Doom level where you swim around underground, gather coins, and shoot fireballs at fish would have been MUCH different.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

For instance, the popular Doom level where you swim around underground, gather coins, and shoot fireballs at fish would have been MUCH different.

Okay, that got a chuckle out of me.

 

[Mr_Furious]

Nobody's bothered to respond to this, so I'll have to say it again. Doom itself was influenced by Super Mario Bros. All you young'uns are underestimating SMB's influence. I know it's hard to believe that Mario influenced games with guns in them, but it's true.

You don't have to try and convince me that Doom is influential. I fucking know that--read my post (the one with the big picture of my Doom collection in it). All I'm saying is that Mario was bigger. I know he's hateful, but it's the truth.

And I can't believe nobody's defending Pong for starting two industries.

How much do you want to bet that I'm older than you. Here's a hint: I was out of college before the shareware version of Doom ever hit the scene.

You are syaing the Wolf3d was ignored, but most people who have played went on to buy doom. It was the first step that popularised FPS games, It's like saying that PSX was the first to to cater to kids, when the NES did it before that. Credit where it's due. The original Civ on the other hand has many, many features that are still being used today. And a few of these elements are seeping into other genres aswell.

I mean look at all the Civ has accomplished:
-First to make random generated maps.
-First to introduce the tax/science/popularity balancing system
-first to introduce the leadership styles
-First to implement the settlers -> outpost to large colony system
-First to have a sophisticated terrain advanatge system.
-First to introduce the mineral system.
-First to introduce a diplomacy system.
-First to introduce the branching growth system.

I could really go on and on.

Just because Wolf3D came first doesn't make it the most influential by default. Doom was the first game where the market and the industry stood up and took notice (and in a BIG way). There's no way to spin that. Also, Doom's influence has expanded past gameplay.

It's a pretty big leap to say Doom was influenced (or rather, even moderately influenced) by Super Mario Bros. Your proof is John Romero listed Squaresoft and Miyamoto games as design influences in an interview about his career *and* he was just a member of the team on Doom (Hall created the initial scenario which Carmack decided against - as far as I can tell, all Romero did besides a little programming was create some level designs). Those are some big leaps.

And, as many other people have pointed out, the influence of Doom goes far, *far* beyond the gameplay.

Leondexter, please read the post above AGAIN. Doom has had more influence on not only video games but has also greatly affected business models and technology to this very day. You cannot argue the same for SMB. All you keep doing is reverting back to your weak John Romero point and all others pertain to gameplay. Doom's influence has expanded well past gameplay.

 

[Somnia]

Anyone else find it alittle ironic that this comes out just days before the Doom movie is released? (Sorry if someone has allready mentioned this, got sick of reading about SMB =p)

 

[Mr. Blonde]

What's ironic about it? Maybe you mean coincidental?

 

[tahrikmili]

HURT ME PLENTY

I can still hear the sound from the menus as you navigated.. Thump! Thump! Thump! DOOM was that influential, I can still remember the most minute details about a game that's, what, over 10 years old now? Wow..

 

[Version 3.0]

Leondexter, please read the post above AGAIN. Doom has had more influence on not only video games but has also greatly affected business models and technology to this very day. You cannot argue the same for SMB. All you keep doing is reverting back to your weak John Romero point and all others pertain to gameplay. Doom's influence has expanded well past gameplay.

That's because I was on peripheral topic, that being whether or not Doom's design was influenced by SMB.
As to SMB's influence outside of game design, I certainly CAN argue that it affected business models. I can argue that the console manufacturer/game publisher royalty business model still used by every console today was cemented by the NES, and therefore indirectly by the success of SMB. That business model was established, if I remember right, by a lawsuit between Atari and Activision. Nintendo used a modified version of it for the NES, one which included quality control and probably a higher royalty. They defended that business model in court more than once.

I'm not trying to say that SMB was more influential than Doom in these areas--it certainly wasn't--but you're using a double standard when you dismiss SMB's influence out of hand in all areas besides game design, but don't do the same for Doom.

Here's another non-game-related SMB influence--merchandising. Mario had toys, gum, cereal, TV shows, movies, books and comic books, etc, etc everywhere you looked, years ago. Where was Doom for all this time? It had some things (I remember a couple of books), but nothing on the scale of SMB. At least it's finally getting a movie.

 

[krypt0nian]

Let's hear your take on how Miyamoto's game design influenced Romero's. Oh, wait, you don't think it did, even though he said so himself. Isn't that right?

Until you get a quote of him saying SMB influenced Doom, you need to STFU. :lol

The influence that Doom had on game play, graphics, hardware, networking, modding, the business itself (shareware!), bringing PC gaming more to the mainstream, offering mature content, and setting an atomsphere clearly demonstrate that it had sweeping, and far reaching effects.

And none of your ramblings and loosely connected facts go anywhere near this post.

 

[Mr_Furious]

That's because I was on peripheral topic, that being whether or not Doom's design was influenced by SMB.
As to SMB's influence outside of game design, I certainly CAN argue that it affected business models. I can argue that the console manufacturer/game publisher royalty business model still used by every console today was cemented by the NES, and therefore indirectly by the success of SMB. That business model was established, if I remember right, by a lawsuit between Atari and Activision. Nintendo used a modified version of it for the NES, one which included quality control and probably a higher royalty. They defended that business model in court more than once.

I'm not trying to say that SMB was more influential than Doom in these areas--it certainly wasn't--but you're using a double standard when you dismiss SMB's influence out of hand in all areas besides game design, but don't do the same for Doom.

Here's another non-game-related SMB influence--merchandising. Mario had toys, gum, cereal, TV shows, movies, books and comic books, etc, etc everywhere you looked, years ago. Where was Doom for all this time? It had some things (I remember a couple of books), but nothing on the scale of SMB. At least it's finally getting a movie.

1. Nintendo established the business model you describe for the protection of their company and it's future. Nintendo enforced standards on the console industry because of what caused that industry to crash and it had nothing to do with SMB or it's success. To somehow translate that the success of SMB as being responsible for how Nintendo conducted business with 3rd parties and licensees (even indirectly) is beyond stretching it.

2. You have continually focused mainly on the design influence of SMB where as Doom has had more influence outside of design. I do remember Romero idolizing Miyamoto but at no point was it mentioned anywhere that SMB had a direct influence. Miyamoto's design philosophies might've had some influence but you do know that Romero was just one guy on the Doom team and that you have no evidence that anyone else shared Romero's opinion.

3. You are totally wrong if you think SMB is responsible for merchandising. That honor goes to Pac-Man.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

That's because I was on peripheral topic, that being whether or not Doom's design was influenced by SMB.
As to SMB's influence outside of game design, I certainly CAN argue that it affected business models. I can argue that the console manufacturer/game publisher royalty business model still used by every console today was cemented by the NES, and therefore indirectly by the success of SMB. That business model was established, if I remember right, by a lawsuit between Atari and Activision. Nintendo used a modified version of it for the NES, one which included quality control and probably a higher royalty. They defended that business model in court more than once.

Side note: Atari *lost* that deal. There were no royalties for the 2600, it was an open platform. In fact, so were the other consoles of the day.

I think it's a stretch to attribute that business model to SMB, though. Other games were successful on that platform too.

 

[soundwave05]

I think Super Mario 64 has to be up there as well. When you really think about it, it was the first real game title to have all of the following

Free roaming 3D environments
Real 3D control (Analog Stick)
A dedicated camera system for 3D play
AAA gameplay/game design

All in one package.

Everything from Grand Theft Auto to Zelda you could say has followed in Mario 64's steps.

I would say Mario 64, DOOM, and Super Mario Bros. are the most influential ... you can't really go wrong by picking any of those.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

I think Super Mario 64 has to be up there as well. When you really think about it, it was the first real game title to have all of the following

Free roaming 3D environments
Real 3D control (Analog Stick)
A dedicated camera system for 3D play
AAA gameplay/game design

All in one package.

Everything from Grand Theft Auto to Zelda you could say has followed in Mario 64's steps.

I would say Mario 64, DOOM, and Super Mario Bros. are the most influential ... you can't really go wrong by picking any of those.

Nearly all of those were done earlier on other games, but SM64 did bring them together in a great way.