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[Klosshufvud]

AMD works much better on Linux, that's probably why they decided to go with it.

Yeah Nvidia's Linux drivers are pretty bad right? I guess Valve doesn't want to throw away years of AMD optimizations either. A 7600 is an ok GPU but some games may look rough running 1080p on 4K TVs. A 1440p60 baseline would have been perfect, which DLSS is basically a magic bullet for.

 

[Shogmaster]

A console box with discrete GPU for a mass market box? Why would Valave do something that stupid?

RX 7600 would require additional 190W load on the PSU, you would need 300~400W PSU. You would also need PCIe x8 or x16 slot, the box will have to be much bigger to accommodate a discrete GPU and AFAIK there isn't a dual fan RX 7600 still sold, and if they rejig the whole thing's cooling rig, might as well screw the RX7600 and go with an APU...

In fact, doing a console that don't use an APU is, as cool kids would say, retarded. It saves on power usage, mobo complexity, RAM complexity etc..

So if Fremont is really aiming for RX 7600ish GPU power and 6 core Zen 4 or better, unless they want to wait for 2027 for RDNA 5 APUs, there is only one choice: Ryzen AI Max 385.

With 385 you get 8 core Zen 5 (crushes 6 core Zen 4), 32 CU RDNA 3.5 (even better than 32 CU RDNA 3 with faster GPU max clock) a shared LPDDR5X that would give you more RAM per dollar (32GB anyone?), comparable RAM bandwidth (256GB/s vs 288GB/s), all for more compact and cheaper box.

If you sell at cost,, it could be low as $500~600, and give you better than Series X/PS5 performance with much more modern GPU features.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

A console box with discrete GPU for a mass market box? Why would Valave do something that stupid?

RX 7600 would require additional 190W load on the PSU, you would need 300~400W PSU. You would also need PCIe x8 or x16 slot, the box will have to be much bigger to accommodate a discrete GPU and AFAIK there isn't a dual fan RX 7600 still sold, and if they rejig the whole thing's cooling rig, might as well screw the RX7600 and go with an APU...

In fact, doing a console that don't use an APU is, as cool kids would say, retarded. It saves on power usage, mobo complexity, RAM complexity etc..

So if Fremont is really aiming for RX 7600ish GPU power and 6 core Zen 4 or better, unless they want to wait for 2027 for RDNA 5 APUs, there is only one choice: Ryzen AI Max 385.

With 385 you get 8 core Zen 5 (crushes 6 core Zen 4), 32 CU RDNA 3.5 (even better than 32 CU RDNA 3 with faster GPU max clock) a shared LPDDR5X that would give you more RAM per dollar (32GB anyone?), comparable RAM bandwidth (256GB/s vs 288GB/s), all for more compact and cheaper box.

If you sell at cost,, it could be low as $500~600, and give you better than Series X/PS5 performance with much more modern GPU features.

I don't think anyone ever said it was a discrete DESKTOP 7600. It could very well be a laptop GPU, but if it is a desktop GPU it's still a PC and having a box that is upgradeable would be very consumer friendly even if it had size constraints.

On the power supply end of things there are gaming laptops that come with 400w chargers I believe so it could also just be external.

 

[BlueManifest]

A console box with discrete GPU for a mass market box? Why would Valave do something that stupid?

RX 7600 would require additional 190W load on the PSU, you would need 300~400W PSU. You would also need PCIe x8 or x16 slot, the box will have to be much bigger to accommodate a discrete GPU and AFAIK there isn't a dual fan RX 7600 still sold, and if they rejig the whole thing's cooling rig, might as well screw the RX7600 and go with an APU...

In fact, doing a console that don't use an APU is, as cool kids would say, retarded. It saves on power usage, mobo complexity, RAM complexity etc..

So if Fremont is really aiming for RX 7600ish GPU power and 6 core Zen 4 or better, unless they want to wait for 2027 for RDNA 5 APUs, there is only one choice: Ryzen AI Max 385.

With 385 you get 8 core Zen 5 (crushes 6 core Zen 4), 32 CU RDNA 3.5 (even better than 32 CU RDNA 3 with faster GPU max clock) a shared LPDDR5X that would give you more RAM per dollar (32GB anyone?), comparable RAM bandwidth (256GB/s vs 288GB/s), all for more compact and cheaper box.

If you sell at cost,, it could be low as $500~600, and give you better than Series X/PS5 performance with much more modern GPU features.

Coming from how strong the deck was at the time for a handheld it does seem odd to hold back on the console

Going by how they pushed the specs of the deck when it was announced I would have thought their console would be stronger than a ps5 pro

They could be making multiple systems like the series S and X and the 7600 is their series S

 

[Shogmaster]

Coming from how strong the deck was at the time for a handheld it does seem odd to hold back on the console

Going by how they pushed the specs of the deck when it was announced I would have thought their console would be stronger than a ps5 pro

They could be making multiple systems like the series S and X and the 7600 is their series S

That doesn't seem Valve's style since they had only one APU for the Deck, otherwise they would have released Z1E version of the SteamDeck by now.

 

[Shogmaster]

I don't think anyone ever said it was a discrete DESKTOP 7600. It could very well be a laptop GPU, but if it is a desktop GPU it's still a PC and having a box that is upgradeable would be very consumer friendly even if it had size constraints.

On the power supply end of things there are gaming laptops that come with 400w chargers I believe so it could also just be external.

RX7600M would probably be soldered on the mobo so I don't know how upgradable that would be. As for eGPU, might as well sell just that for the Deck then. Also 28 RDNA3 CUs seem too little against X and PS5...

 

[hououinkyouma00]

RX7600M would probably be soldered on the mobo so I don't know how upgradable that would be. As for eGPU, might as well sell just that for the Deck then. Also 28 RDNA3 CUs seem too little against X and PS5...

Well yeah, I'm saying they might be using a laptop GPU in order to fit it into a console sized box but if they are using a desktop GPU I'm sure it's for user upgradability.

A 2 fan 2 slot GPU would easily fit into a PS5 sized case though. There are plenty of PC cases that aren't much bigger.

 

[Shogmaster]

Well yeah, I'm saying they might be using a laptop GPU in order to fit it into a console sized box but if they are using a desktop GPU I'm sure it's for user upgradability.

A 2 fan 2 slot GPU would easily fit into a PS5 sized case though. There are plenty of PC cases that aren't much bigger.

If discrete GPU is a must, even a 8GB RX9060 with 28 RDNA4 CUs makes more sense... it has 100W less PSU requirement (550 vs 450).

 

[asdasdasdbb]

A console box with discrete GPU for a mass market box? Why would Valave do something that stupid?

Because it's cheap. Strix Halo is anything but cheap.

 

[Shogmaster]

Because it's cheap. Strix Halo is anything but cheap.

This ain't strix halo big. It's strix halo small. One above strix halo tiny. There are 4 strix halo SKUs.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Yeah Nvidia's Linux drivers are pretty bad right? I guess Valve doesn't want to throw away years of AMD optimizations either. A 7600 is an ok GPU but some games may look rough running 1080p on 4K TVs. A 1440p60 baseline would have been perfect, which DLSS is basically a magic bullet for.

From what I've seen and experienced, the Nvidia drivers on Linux tend to work fine if you're running on X11. It's when you use Wayland where headaches occur. SteamOS in desktop mode uses X11, but when gaming, it uses a Wayland compositor called Gamescope.

Not directly related to this topic, but still somewhat relevant, there has been some X11 vs Wayland drama over the past few months. One of the former contributors to X11 claimed that Red Hat purposely abandoned X11 by blocking major updates to X11. He forked the code into Xlibre to keep it alive.

 

[Shogmaster]

What's the practical reason for wanting nVidia GPU in Fremont? Just to get a discrete card in it? Meh....

Also, nVidia will never land a X86 license so there never will be an X86 APU out of them so it's a strange choice to pursue nVidia for Valve...

 

[Klosshufvud]

A console box with discrete GPU for a mass market box? Why would Valave do something that stupid?

RX 7600 would require additional 190W load on the PSU, you would need 300~400W PSU. You would also need PCIe x8 or x16 slot, the box will have to be much bigger to accommodate a discrete GPU and AFAIK there isn't a dual fan RX 7600 still sold, and if they rejig the whole thing's cooling rig, might as well screw the RX7600 and go with an APU...

In fact, doing a console that don't use an APU is, as cool kids would say, retarded. It saves on power usage, mobo complexity, RAM complexity etc..

So if Fremont is really aiming for RX 7600ish GPU power and 6 core Zen 4 or better, unless they want to wait for 2027 for RDNA 5 APUs, there is only one choice: Ryzen AI Max 385.

With 385 you get 8 core Zen 5 (crushes 6 core Zen 4), 32 CU RDNA 3.5 (even better than 32 CU RDNA 3 with faster GPU max clock) a shared LPDDR5X that would give you more RAM per dollar (32GB anyone?), comparable RAM bandwidth (256GB/s vs 288GB/s), all for more compact and cheaper box.

If you sell at cost,, it could be low as $500~600, and give you better than Series X/PS5 performance with much more modern GPU features.

300W PSU is not a big deal. Consoles have that with decent form factors. Isn't 385 way more expensive than adding a cheap dedicated GPU to a cheap desktop CPU? The AI Max 395 (I hate these names) atleast is really expensive, multiple times higher than the budget of a Steam console. Doubt 385 is that much cheaper.

There's little point opting for these expensive APUs intended for slim laptops/mini-PCs when you have the luxury of a larger form factor allowing the use of less high-end ultra-efficient components. They're most likely going to use less high-end parts to save on costs, at the expense of form factor and power profile.

 

[Shogmaster]

300W PSU is not a big deal. Consoles have that with decent form factors. Isn't 385 way more expensive than adding a cheap dedicated GPU to a cheap desktop CPU? The AI Max 395 (I hate these names) atleast is really expensive, multiple times higher than the budget of a Steam console. Doubt 385 is that much cheaper.

There's little point opting for these expensive APUs intended for slim laptops/mini-PCs when you have the luxury of a larger form factor allowing the use of less high-end ultra-efficient components. They're most likely going to use less high-end parts to save on costs, at the expense of form factor and power profile.

All I know is there is $500 difference between board with 395 and 385. $1200 vs $700 iirc. That's at Framework, with RAM (64GB) and 2 NVMe slots with one filled, etc.. Obviously this is at retail to us end customers. So who knows what AMD charges for the chips. These Strix Halo Mini PC OFMs aren't buying at 10,000 count orders. Probably a hundred or so at a time. Valve can easily get a good deal if ordered at huge quantities.

BTW 395 has 16 core CPU and 40 CUs. 385 has 8 core CPU and 32 CUs.

 

[StereoVsn]

All I know is there is $500 difference between board with 395 and 385. $1200 vs $700 iirc. That's at Framework, with RAM (64GB) and 2 NVMe slots with one filled, etc.. Obviously this is at retail to us end customers. So who knows what AMD charges for the chips. These Strix Halo Mini PC OFMs aren't buying at 10,000 count orders. Probably a hundred or so at a time. Valve can easily get a good deal if ordered at huge quantities.

BTW 395 has 16 core CPU and 40 CUs. 385 has 8 core CPU and 32 CUs.

That's a very good point. 385 chipset would make a lot more sense overall and provide same or better performance.

A 9060 would be even better but that would push the price up too much and there is no laptop 9060 card.

 

[Klosshufvud]

All I know is there is $500 difference between board with 395 and 385. $1200 vs $700 iirc. That's at Framework, with RAM (64GB) and 2 NVMe slots with one filled, etc.. Obviously this is at retail to us end customers. So who knows what AMD charges for the chips. These Strix Halo Mini PC OFMs aren't buying at 10,000 count orders. Probably a hundred or so at a time. Valve can easily get a good deal if ordered at huge quantities.

BTW 395 has 16 core CPU and 40 CUs. 385 has 8 core CPU and 32 CUs.

That $700 is still substantially more than the sub $200 CPU, the $200 GPU and added RAM/storage/PSU costs of $150. That leaves a minimum $200 dollar gap just to save on form factor and power profile - two areas really not that important in a home console form factor. Also as far as I can tell, the 7600 outperforms the 385 iGPU at 1440p. Since the baseline for TV gaming is higher resolution over higher frame rates, it makes sense to prioritize GPU over CPU to ensure a 1440p/60 fps baseline.

 

[Shogmaster]

That $700 is still substantially more than the sub $200 CPU, the $200 GPU and added RAM/storage/PSU costs of $150. That leaves a minimum $200 dollar gap just to save on form factor and power profile - two areas really not that important in a home console form factor. Also as far as I can tell, the 7600 outperforms the 385 iGPU at 1440p. Since the baseline for TV gaming is higher resolution over higher frame rates, it makes sense to prioritize GPU over CPU to ensure a 1440p/60 fps baseline.

Those prices are Framework making money with decent margins.

Also. You are saying 32 CU of RDNA 3.5 at 2.8Ghz would be beaten by 32 CU RDNA 3 at 2.7 GHz? Okay....

 

[Klosshufvud]

Those prices are Framework making money with decent margins.

Also. You are saying 32 CU of RDNA 3.5 at 2.8Ghz would be beaten by 32 CU RDNA 3 at 2.7 GHz? Okay....

Same with the prices I mentioned. Not really a substantial leap in rasterization between RDNA3 to 3.5 and the 7600 has superior memory set up making it more applicable at higher resolutions. All while most likely beating the 385 in price. The CPU will be weaker but 8 cores Zen 5 CPU is overkill for gaming most of the time, when paired with a fairly low end GPU.

 

[Shogmaster]

Same with the prices I mentioned. Not really a substantial leap in rasterization between RDNA3 to 3.5 and the 7600 has superior memory set up making it more applicable at higher resolutions. All while most likely beating the 385 in price. The CPU will be weaker but 8 cores Zen 5 CPU is overkill for gaming most of the time, when paired with a fairly low end GPU.

288 vs 256GB/s is easily overcome with more memory IMO. 8 + 8 or even 16 + 8 vs 24 or 32.

8 core doesn't seem like overkill if RT is engaged, since CPU will have to set up all the BVH trees. 6 Cores would struggle Id think, especially if they clock the cores down for saving cost on cooling. Even PS5 and Series S/X has 8 cores.

RT at 1440p would be problematic with only 8GB but 24 or 32GB would afford much more for frame buffer so no problem at 1440p. 8GB if RX 7600 would be limited to 1080p.

 

[Klosshufvud]

288 vs 256GB/s is easily overcome with more memory IMO. 8 + 8 or even 16 + 8 vs 24 or 32.

8 core doesn't seem like overkill if RT is engaged, since CPU will have to set up all the BVH trees. 6 Cores would struggle Id think, especially if they clock the cores down for saving cost on cooling. Even PS5 and Series S/X has 8 cores.

RT at 1440p would be problematic with only 8GB but 24 or 32GB would afford much more for frame buffer so no problem at 1440p. 8GB if RX 7600 would be limited to 1080p.

Neither the iGPU in 385 or the 7600 are RT GPUs. You will suffer hard in either of the two. And we already have those ridiculous 32GB LPDDR5X RAM devices (hell I own one) and there is no way in hell, no matter at what clocks and RAM size can cope with RT. It's simple fantasy. 8GB of GDDR6 is generally perfectly fine for 1440p60 fps without ray tracing. Most people don't bother with ray tracing either.

 

[Shogmaster]

Neither the iGPU in 385 or the 7600 are RT GPUs. You will suffer hard in either of the two. And we already have those ridiculous 32GB LPDDR5X RAM devices (hell I own one) and there is no way in hell, no matter at what clocks and RAM size can cope with RT. It's simple fantasy. 8GB of GDDR6 is generally perfectly fine for 1440p60 fps without ray tracing. Most people don't bother with ray tracing either.

Hey, I'm no fan of RT in games since I have to pause and squint and even then can't tell shit unless there are obvious reflections or its path tracing. I'm not even sure path tracing is practical with RDNA5. lol

Nevertheless, it is forced in some games now. New Doom, Indiana Jones, Alan Wake whatever. So it's not gonna stop. Even RDNA2 consoles have to suffer through this. Thinking Fremont won't have to deal with RT is burying your head in the sand.