Support NeoGAF

[Cornbread78]

Just leave an option to take off map, hints and markers off.
Then people will praise it because they are allergic to maps, towers, markers/being told where to go.

Yeah a toggle would be nice because fuck wazti g time walking aimlessly around aap looking for shit. Tell me when K have to go & when and I'll be there... the hardo can waste their own time walking around like zombies..

To me, BOTW is still the most boring & overrated game I've ever played..

 

[VideoGameEnjoyer]

Just leave an option to take off map, hints and markers off.
Then people will praise it because they are allergic to maps, towers, markers/being told where to go.

Terrible suggestion that doesn't address the issue at all.

Do you think the difference between Elden Ring and Assassins Creed is toggling map markers on and off? Ass Creed doesn't have a map built to be played without markers.

 

[newtypepilot]

I don't see why maps are a problem. It's just a tool for the player to use so they can keep track of their location or progress. As long as it's not one of those ubisoft open world maps where it's full of "?" markers then it's fine.

 

[LRKD]

I agree a Morrowind game would never be mainstream again, but are sales everything? If he actually cares, he should be making his indie passion project. I think while that kind of game will never hit mainstream again, there is still a 'large' enough niche market for it.

It also strikes me as odd that these super AAA companies don't fund more fake indie games like Dave the Diver, you give this guy a crew of 20, and a reasonable budget and they could make Morrowind 2, cheaper, and faster than Bethesda made Morrowind at the time, with the modern tools and resources available.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Terrible suggestion that doesn't address the issue at all.

Do you think the difference between Elden Ring and Assassins Creed is toggling map markers on and off? Ass Creed doesn't have a map built to be played without markers.

Clearly a game like BOTW is different to AC. But there not gonna change the way those games play, the maps because people like Something different. They have plenty of their own fans.
People are gonna moan either way

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I agree a Morrowind game would never be mainstream again, but are sales everything? If he actually cares, he should be making his indie passion project. I think while that kind of game will never hit mainstream again, there is still a 'large' enough niche market for it.

It also strikes me as odd that these super AAA companies don't fund more fake indie games like Dave the Diver, you give this guy a crew of 20, and a reasonable budget and they could make Morrowind 2, cheaper, and faster than Bethesda made Morrowind at the time, with the modern tools and resources available.

I think a lot of them dont because once you become a big company with AAA budgets, going after $10 or $20 budget games looks bad. A snub to low brow and low budget gaming. Once you go big, you strive for bigger, not necessarily better.

Games like Vampire Saviours and Balatro sold millions of copies, look like they could be made for Windows 3.1. The ROI on them must be humongous. But since it's millions of dollars and not potentially billions, it's not worth the hassle.

 

[avalonzero]

You guys don't have the balls to make one, so I guess that'd be right.

 

[Kataploom]

I mean, BOTW/TOTK, Dark Souls are very popular games... Also the unguided exploration have been on fire for a while thanks to those games and Dark Souls even created a whole sub-genre which happens to be the most popular these days

 

[Laptop1991]

Morrowind had a map and compass when i last played it in 2006 just before Oblivion came out, i'm sure of it unless my memory is bad, and i would if the game was a good RPG, although i would get lost a lot with the size of some of the games lol.

 

[Kataploom]

yeah but thats like an exception , most people still prefer a short 8-15 hour game with map markers

if you think how big the gaming community is 25 million isnt even 10% , and out of those 25 million players how many finished the game ? or even reached the middle ?

statistically speaking most players these days when games are this long and hard they just play it for 1-2 hours and never touch it again but they buy it because of hype

But if they bought it in first place, doesn't that mean the the experience called their attention or that at least the lack of those "standard" UX elements didn't bother them anyway?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Gaming is one of those things where the next game has got to be bigger and flashier. Especially for open world games. Its not too often a studio makes a sequel that is smaller with less shit to do. So they ensure gamers get handholding.

A tight 8 hour linear SP game has no expectations beyond that. Nobody asks for the SP game to be stretched to 10, 15, or 40 hours. So this kind of game is lucky.

Games that are big and fully featured evolve into bloat because they cant go back. It's like cars. Every new model has more features built into the dashboard control system. I bet most people (myself included) have never used 90% of the features. But it's there cuz you cant leave it out even if only 5% of people use it. If they leave the feature out or make the game 40% smaller customers go ape shit.

 

[StereoVsn]

There should be a map and a compass. Just not in the sense of automatically showing quest location.

But you should be able to get a map. Maybe you could buy general map in each area and mark it up yourself (or auto map once you get near enough). And having a compass wouldn’t be bad as it makes sense from lore side.

The issue is the Ubisoft style mapping and also auto travel from anywhere, IMO.

Morrowind style approach with some QoL could do decently well, IMO.

 

[Crayon]

Just leave an option to take off map, hints and markers off.
Then people will praise it because they are allergic to maps, towers, markers/being told where to go.

There's a few game where you have the option, and they totally fall apart. They are designed assuming players are going to follow quest markers, and when you try to play without them, you are really going to have no idea where to go. The quest description is practically just flavor text. "you must travel to blahblah. It lies far to the west of yaddayadda. Once there, find a man called whatshisface." That sounds fine until you turn off the quest markers, then you are fucked. I believe you can turn them off with witcher 3, and it just doesn't work.

Well, there's always the oldies if I want a more immersive experience than today's quasi-rpgs.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Well, there's always the oldies if I want a more immersive experience than today's quasi-rpgs.

I wonder what modern gamers would do if RPGs were like the 80s with zero maps. My bro played Wizardry games in the 80s and he'd resort to drawing dungeons on graph paper because they'd get complex. Made worse with spinners in the dark to fuck up the gamer's sense of direction.

 

[Wildebeest]

Morrowind had a map and compass when i last played it in 2006 just before Oblivion came out, i'm sure of it unless my memory is bad, and i would if the game was a good RPG, although i would get lost a lot with the size of some of the games lol.

I think they are talking about a map with all the points of interest already filled in and a magic compass that points you to hotspots and exactly towards where you need to go for your "active quest".

 

[Laptop1991]

I think they are talking about a map with all the points of interest already filled in and a magic compass that points you to hotspots and exactly towards where you need to go for your "active quest".

Yeah, as other post's in here have pointed out, there are pro's and cons, being able to toggle them off is a good idea, but a lot of players wouldn't know where to go as well, as some games are huge, which i like, but i also would get frustrated taking hours and hours to find someplace that probably is just over the hill and up a bit lol.

 

[StereoVsn]

I think they are talking about a map with all the points of interest already filled in and a magic compass that points you to hotspots and exactly towards where you need to go for your "active quest".

Yeah, this is the issue not having a map and a compass which would make sense for the context.

Heck, have a mapping skill for some extra capability and you could buy maps from cartographers in nearby locations.

Edit: All of this assumes that environmental design, locality design, and quest design and descriptions make sense.

It would be crucial to have proper environmental landmarks both inside and outside population centers which could be referee to in quests. I doubt capability of modern game designers to do this properly.

 

[Crayon]

I wonder what modern gamers would do if RPGs were like the 80s with zero maps. My bro played Wizardry games in the 80s and he'd resort to drawing dungeons on graph paper because they'd get complex. Made worse with spinners in the dark to fuck up the gamer's sense of direction.

Drawing maps in the old wizardry games was pretty much a requirement. Bring your graph paper. 8)

These days it would have to be an indie or otherwise very small production to hit that niche. Spiderweb iso-rpgs are semi-modern releases, and some don't have maps at all. Very fun, too. They are super low budget though, and presumably destined to sell small amounts.

 

[LakeOf9]

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
  34 million copies sold, 97 on Metacritic
• Elden Ring
  25 million copies sold, 96 on Metacritic
• The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
  20 million copies sold, 96 on Metacritic

Really?

 

[Wildebeest]

Yeah, as other post's in there have pointed out, there are pro's and cons, being able to toggle them off is a good idea, but a lot of players wouldn't know where to go as well, as some games are huge, which i like, but i also would get frustrated taking hours and hours to find someplace that probably is just over the hill and up a bit lol.

Nobody is saying they can't put paths and signposts in the game. But they wouldn't bother if they know the game has a magic compass.

 

[SoloCamo]

Morrowind is probably my favorite game of all time (and if not, certainly my favorite RPG) - that said, from a sales perspective he's probably right. Oblvion made it clear and Skyrim cemented that. That said, I do honestly think a proper visual/engine remaster of Morrowind itself would sell extremely well while still leaving the quest & exploration systems in place. An improved movement/combat Morrowind with modern graphics is pretty much my dream game but it won't happen...

The whole "lost in an alien world" exploration is what made Morrowind what it is and I still go back to it multiple times a year. No game really scratches that itch otherwise.

And no, the comparisons to the latest Zeldas let alone Elden ring aren't really valid.

 

[LakeOf9]

that said, from a sales perspective he's probably right. Oblvion made it clear and Skyrim cemented that.

No he isn't

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
  34 million copies sold, 97 on Metacritic
• Elden Ring
  25 million copies sold, 96 on Metacritic
• The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
  20 million copies sold, 96 on Metacritic

 

[StereoVsn]

Nobody is saying they can't put paths and signposts in the game. But they wouldn't bother if they know the game has a magic compass.

It’s not just sign posts. It’s also environment design that can be used to guide folks. This means it can’t be auto generated.

This also means proper quest design and description. I just don’t see it happening.

Zelda and Elden Ring also don’t really have large towns, large amounts of NPCs (or quests) and so on. Different game philosophy.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Fuckssake, aren't Bethesda games aimless enough already? They need a map that shows them how to make a cohesive game.

 

[Laptop1991]

Nobody is saying they can't put paths and signposts in the game. But they wouldn't bother if they know the game has a magic compass.

No, they wouldn't, but a lot of gamers wouldn't stick with the game or complain if a magic compass wasn't there and that would affect sales nowadays, so i don't see it happening, i wouldn't mind using signposts.

 

[thief183]

Comparing Elden Ring "quest" style to morrowind or any other open world rpg is just stupid. Elden ring doesn't have a quest marker (except when it does) cause you barely need any, you don't have a story to follow, you do what you want when you want, and that is awesome, but comparing it to having an npc explaining the way to a quest location and having to follow some instructions is something totally different.

and again, you can't just disable the markers, cause if you don't receive any clue about where to go... well you are fked.

Holy sht, ppl even on this forum complained for a lack of map in the cities in Starfield, the cities have more or less 2 roads ffs!! Read the king quest, or the sign around.

I'm totally with him with this.

 

[LakeOf9]

It’s not just sign posts. It’s also environment design that can be used to guide folks. This means it can’t be auto generated.

This also means proper quest design and description. I just don’t see it happening.

Zelda and Elden Ring also don’t really have large towns, large amounts of NPCs (or quests) and so on. Different game philosophy.

This is not true. Zelda has multiple towns, NPCs with schedules, and nearly 100 quests (and I am just talking about BOTW, TOTK is even bigger).

You can absolutely make a large game that doesn't rely on compasses and markers to guide and navigate the player, it just involves putting thought into your world design that most developers will not, when they can just vomit out a large space and a ton of icons cluttered to trigger the player's OCD.

That is what makes the games that do make that effort - such as Zelda, Dragon's Dogma, and Elden Ring - that much more special.

 

[FoxMcChief]

Ehhh. I think Elden Ring will be the last game I play of its type. I think I’d prefer tighter stories that aren’t stupid and questlines that actually tell you what the fuck is going on. I think I’m starting to see that type of game and as a chore. I got enough chores around the house.

 

[Wildebeest]

a lot of gamers wouldn't stick with the game or complain if a magic compass wasn't there

I don't care. Fuck them.

 

[fallingdove]

Modern game development on display. There are plenty of ways to help the player navigate the world. As others have mentioned, Elden Ring and BOTW/TOTK exist. I think Ghost of Tsushima did some interesting things too.

 

[TintoConCasera]

I don't get why people are comparing Morrowind's quests with Elden Ring and BOTW/TOTK in this thread.

Zelda has map markers, at least BOTW did and I could swear TOTK also has those. And Elden Ring points you towards the next site of grace that's on the "main" way. Sure this is way better than Witcher 3's GPS or Skyrim's compass telling you were everything is even if you have yet to find it, but still, Morrowind quests require much more effort from the player than ER or Zelda when it comes to navigation.

 

[LakeOf9]

I don't get why people are comparing Morrowind's quests with Elden Ring and BOTW/TOTK in this thread.

Zelda has map markers, at least BOTW did and I could swear TOTK also has those. And Elden Ring points you towards the next site of grace that's on the "main" way. Sure this is way better than Witcher 3's GPS or Skyrim's compass telling you were everything is even if you have yet to find it, but still, Morrowind quests require much more effort from the player than ER or Zelda when it comes to navigation.

The issue is not the presence or absence of markers, the issue is how the world is designed.

BOTW/TOTK and Elden Ring let you navigate the world and its content without once needing any assists or aids from the UI. Most other open world games do not.

The point is that people want more worlds like the former (which themselves are a lot like Morrowind) than the latter.

 

[SoloCamo]

This is not true. Zelda has multiple towns, NPCs with schedules, and nearly 100 quests (and I am just talking about BOTW, TOTK is even bigger).

Whoa now almost...ONE HUNDRED QUESTS? Tell me you haven't actually played Morrowind without telling me....

Zelda games are not a good comparison here at all...

 

[LakeOf9]

Whoa now, ONE HUNDRED QUESTS? Tell me you haven't actually played Morrowind without telling me....

I have been playing Morrowind almost non stop since it came out lmao. It's one of my favorite games ever, I am literally on my triple digit new character save

My point with the number is to show that its style can scale to modern development just fine. You don't need a cryptic game with no overt storytelling (like Elden Ring) to be able to pull it off.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

I bought the 300 page strategy book.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Ehhh. I think Elden Ring will be the last game I play of its type. I think I’d prefer tighter stories that aren’t stupid and questlines that actually tell you what the fuck is going on. I think I’m starting to see that type of game and as a chore. I got enough chores around the house.

There's an entire cottage industry on the internet for guides and lore explanations about Souls games.

I'm sure a lot of players don't care about Elden Ring story too much and those who do use quest guides/map mods.

 

[MarkMe2525]

It seems like you could design the quests and dialog to support such playstyles and then have an option to remove compasses and quest markers. Best of both worlds.

 

[LakeOf9]

It seems like you could design the quests and dialog to support such playstyles and then have an option to remove compasses and quest markers. Best of both worlds.

Yes, this is why everyone is citing the new Zelda games as examples in this thread

 

[FoxMcChief]

There's an entire cottage industry on the internet for guides and lore explanations about Souls games.

I'm sure a lot of players don't care about Elden Ring story too much and those who do use quest guides/map mods.

I think using guides, maps and YouTube are vital for Elden Ring, and it’s DLC. And that’s not something I want to do.

I mean, using that one o mother stance to open a pathway to a whole area wasn’t going to be solved by 99% of gamers, unless they went online.

 

[Sybrix]

DayZ

 

[salva]

Arma Reforger is probably my most recent example.
The vanilla game has no in game UI waypoints and purely relies on squad planning and communication. You have to use your map, compass and landmarks for orientation.
The kids these days are fucked it in haha

 

[samoilaaa]

The issue is not the presence or absence of markers, the issue is how the world is designed.

BOTW/TOTK and Elden Ring let you navigate the world and its content without once needing any assists or aids from the UI. Most other open world games do not.

The point is that people want more worlds like the former (which themselves are a lot like Morrowind) than the latter.

yeah but those games dont any complicated quests , lets be honest , what kind of quests does elden ring have ? you just move anywhere you want and kill bosses thats the main idea of the game

in games like morrowind you have actual storyquests that need your attention/reading skills to move forward

 

[LakeOf9]

yeah but those games dont any complicated quests , lets be honest , what kind of quests does elden ring have ? you just move anywhere you want and kill bosses thats the main idea of the game

in games like morrowind you have actual storyquests that need your attention/reading skills to move forward

Okay, I named two other games though

 

[StreetsofBeige]

All they got to do is give people options. All can be turned on/off:

- Compass
- Building markers
- Distance tracker (Which I find ridiculous. As if a marker isnt easy enough, a gamer has to be told the item or NPC is 12 meters away.... 11.... 10.....)
- Red enemy dot markers

 

[Starhowl]

What is kind of sad for me is that there aren't games like Morrowind anymore.

 

[ReBurn]

Scrubs couldn't even Zork these days

 

[FoxMcChief]

All they got to do is give people options. All can be turned on/off:

- Compass
- Building markers
- Distance tracker (Which I find ridiculous. As if a marker isnt easy enough, a gamer has to be told the item or NPC is 12 meters away.... 11.... 10.....)
- Red enemy dot markers

I would at least want the game to tell me if I started a quest line, or if I ruined one.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

I want every mechanic in the game to have an "in-game reason" to exist. For example, how Hollow Knight implements the map function as part of the lore via a cartographer. It helps in making the world much more immersive. I don't want a stupid menu "outside" the game but an agenda or a map that the character draws as he progresses and discovers more stuff. Instead of dumb yellow paint, I'd like the character (or companion) painting or marking the terrain that can be climbed or explored. Uncharted does some cool stuff with Nathan's notebook.

Today devs have the tech and tools to do whatever they like, but they cannot be bothered to innovate.

 

[Roni]

He's right. Most of you can't even deal with encumbrance...

 

[somesang]

I would wager most devs don't play the games they create, they just test them. In a sense, they're creating games based on checklists and maps provided by stakeholders. And then it's the players who are actually being played.