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[LavitzSlambert]

They're right that few people would play, but I think that's because it hasn't been done in a player friendly way. People just aren't going to remember directions like that, and people generally aren't going to be sitting there taking notes on everything NPCs have to say. Even more so in games that are longer than ever. By the time you get to actually doing the quest, you will have been sidetracked countless times. Many quests occur across the map too, good luck getting people to remember these things when they are consuming content as they come across it. And god forbid there be some obscure item requirement or conversation that gates the quest when you arrive in the right location. All of these are design considerations that are being unaddressed, because the devs themselves are relying on these maps and quest markers to do the heavy lifting for them.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Okay, I named two other games though

Those two have markers on map for the main objectives. Plus you can map more yourself.

 

[SHA]

I disagree, people will listen when they find what they like no matter what, if they disliked it, it's the game's fault.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

25 million elden ring players suggest otherwise regarding a good bit of his sentiment

Lol, at you thinking that 25m Elden Ring players are keeping excel spreadsheets outside their game and not just looking shit up on Google.

I don't agree with this guy's conclusion that gamers won't play the game. They will. Elden Ring is a solid counter-argument. But I think that the majority of Elden Ring gamers are suffering through the archaic inscrutability of the lack of quest assistance rather than enjoying it as a feature. It's just that the rest of the game in ER is just so good that the poor questing design is given a free pass... again you can just look shit up online or in a game guide.

What this dev is right about, however, is that mainstream gamers don't have time for extraneous shit a game might require them to do outside of the game. If you intentionally leave out quest markers and in-game quest assistance, people will just use the internet or stop playing if the rest of the game is not good enough to justify playing.

He's also mistakenly calling poor quest system design and QoL features "puzzle-solving". It's not. It's just poor quest system design.

I know many here on Gaf decry in call it handholding, but they are the small CRPG-fan luddite cronies, who neither part of nor understand the mainstream gamer.

The right response to this dev is make your game good first, and stop thinking that quest system QoL features are a bad thing. You can make questing feel less like a chore in your RPG by simply making your quests and the rewards more interesting. Removing QoL features for managing quests doesn't make the quests any better; and Elden Ring side quest quality is far from the best-in-class and is guilty of this too.

 

[SoloCamo]

It's one of my favorite games ever, I am literally on my triple digit new character save

 

[Alebrije]

Agree , the most similar experience these days of Morrowind is to get a Platinum on Far Cry 6 without any internet help. And Even that is easier. people rely on maps, yellow edges, marks, etc to finish thier games.

This is basically becuase new generations do not have the same patience , they want most stuff fast and easier and also maps these days a far bigger and deep.

 

[peronmls]

Elden Ring is great but exhausting. I really don’t want another game like it. I don’t want more open world giant spaces to walk through just to get to another area.

 

[LakeOf9]

Those two have markers on map for the main objectives. Plus you can map more yourself.

That is exactly what I am arguing for...

 

[RoboFu]

Its the exact reason EverQuest couldn't continue. lots of pansies in gaming.

 

[Dacvak]

This isn’t a problem with players, it’s a problem with game designers, and specifically world designers. Elden Ring works without a waypoint system because the locales are distinct and memorable, and the world is expertly crafted with traversal and exploration in mind. The exact same can be said about BotW.

You can get away without a compass in an open world game so long as you put insane amounts of effort into building out the world in an intelligent way. That’s undoubtedly extremely difficult, though, which is why 99% of open world games need waypoint markers.

And frankly, Elden Ring and BotW are masterpieces that are the exception to the rule.

So honestly, he’s kind of right.

 

[rodrigolfp]

That is exactly what I am arguing for...

Still very different from Morrowind.

 

[Tajaz2426]

Is this the game where the collectors edition had this fat round robot thing? If it is I think I started to play it and I was on a boat or something and escaped, I think.

 

[diffusionx]

I wonder what modern gamers would do if RPGs were like the 80s with zero maps. My bro played Wizardry games in the 80s and he'd resort to drawing dungeons on graph paper because they'd get complex. Made worse with spinners in the dark to fuck up the gamer's sense of direction.

There are still people who like those games. Etrian Odyssey had you draw maps. They are still released in indie form. But the audience is small just like the audience was in the 80s.

All they got to do is give people options. All can be turned on/off:

- Compass
- Building markers
- Distance tracker (Which I find ridiculous. As if a marker isnt easy enough, a gamer has to be told the item or NPC is 12 meters away.... 11.... 10.....)
- Red enemy dot markers

Nah, because you have to design the game from day one without this stuff. It all has to be built with the idea that this stuff doesn’t exist.

 

[Guilty_AI]

No, its just that if you make a game with no compass and no map you better be a very good at making your game. Stuff like marking the objective in the map is just an easy, lazy solution to poor level and enviromental design.

 

[StereoVsn]

Lol, at you thinking that 25m Elden Ring players are keeping excel spreadsheets outside their game and not just looking shit up on Google.

I don't agree with this guy's conclusion that gamers won't play the game. They will. Elden Ring is a solid counter-argument. But I think that the majority of Elden Ring gamers are suffering through the archaic inscrutability of the lack of quest assistance rather than enjoying it as a feature. It's just that the rest of the game in ER is just so good that the poor questing design is given a free pass... again you can just look shit up online or in a game guide.

What this dev is right about, however, is that mainstream gamers don't have time for extraneous shit a game might require them to do outside of the game. If you intentionally leave out quest markers and in-game quest assistance, people will just use the internet or stop playing if the rest of the game is not good enough to justify playing.

He's also mistakenly calling poor quest system design and QoL features "puzzle-solving". It's not. It's just poor quest system design.

I know many here on Gaf decry in call it handholding, but they are the small CRPG-fan luddite cronies, who neither part of nor understand the mainstream gamer.

The right response to this dev is make your game good first, and stop thinking that quest system QoL features are a bad thing. You can make questing feel less like a chore in your RPG by simply making your quests and the rewards more interesting. Removing QoL features for managing quests doesn't make the quests any better; and Elden Ring side quest quality is far from the best-in-class and is guilty of this too.

The big issue is that once devs started relying on quest markers, they stopped producing quest descriptions and structure that could be used in lieu of markers. It goes the same with environmental design. Modern design (minus a few exceptions) lacks enough distinction that could work without the said markers.

Basically designers don’t bother with more complex structure if they don’t need to because that’s extra cost and the stupid markers are now accepted as default.

 

[Fbh]

This isn’t a problem with players, it’s a problem with game designers, and specifically world designers. Elden Ring works without a waypoint system because the locales are distinct and memorable, and the world is expertly crafted with traversal and exploration in mind. The exact same can be said about BotW.

You can get away without a compass in an open world game so long as you put insane amounts of effort into building out the world in an intelligent way. That’s undoubtedly extremely difficult, though, which is why 99% of open world games need waypoint markers.

And frankly, Elden Ring and BotW are masterpieces that are the exception to the rule.

So honestly, he’s kind of right.

A big element that makes both BOTW and Elden Ring work so well is that they are actually designed as open world games, instead of linear games set in an open world, which is how most do it these days.
In BOTW, for example, you are basically put into the open world with a basic objective of "finding the 4 divine beast". No matter where you go explore you are basically making progress because there's no one specific place you are supposed to go to first or a specific order in which to clear the divine beasts. The game actually encourages you to just go in any direction that seems interesting to you, and you will usually organically come across the main missions along the way.

Elden Ring is a bit more structured and gives you more hints as to where the next main objective is, but it still gives you a lot of flexibility in the order in which you complete a lot of the content, and there's a massive amount of fun optional content to interact with along the way, which also makes it a joy to just go explore in any direction and see what you find.

Talk to people about their experience in BOTW or Elden Ring and everyone will probably have different story about where they went and what they did. Talk to someone about Assassins Creed and everyone basically did the same stuff, in the same way and in the same order, the only variation being which sidequests you decided to do or not.

 

[Mr Moose]

Without a map in an open world game my ass would get lost, especially if there's trees and shit. Skyrim without a map? Fuck no.

 

[sendit]

25 million elden ring players suggest otherwise regarding a good bit of his sentiment

Elden Ring has a map. Elden Ring has a compass. Elden Ring has points of interest. Elden Ring has shrines which reveal the map. Elden Ring has general guidance on what to do next.

 

[Hemingwayoffbase]

Anyone who ever earnestly uses the term “modern audiences” always uses it as code for “fucking morons.”

Yet isn’t it surprising that when creatives don’t treat their audience like morons, they often sell millions and are lauded as geniuses.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Yeah I wouldn't wanna play it.

 

[Myths]

Maybe if the game had a bit of a leading art direction it would lend itself to performing effectively at that end. All of it comes together with world building and presentation.

 

[nkarafo]

The sad thing is how he expects a game to sell to 1 billion people otherwise it's not worth making it.

 

[Mr Moose]

Elden Ring has a compass.

It does?
I haven't played it in a long ass time (since it fucked me over with getting the platinum by missing a weapon).

 

[NeverYouMind]

I love maps. Quest markers are optional.

P.S. It would be nice if quest logs were a standard though.

 

[nkarafo]

Still waiting to see an open-world where the very concept of being large and open is part of the game-design. For now, we have been getting games with huge world but where the developers thought that they had to put shit everywhere. So you get your copy-pasted content all over the place, and everything gets boring and tedious in only a few hours.

A super large open-world where nothing of interest in to be found with the exception of a very few places, and where finding these places is the core of the gameplay. Now I would play this.

 

[sendit]

It does?
I haven't played it in a long ass time (since it fucked me over with getting the platinum by missing a weapon).

Yep. Top center.

The game is not as de-structured as some may think. Hell, you can put custom waypoints and markers up the wazoo.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Bullshit, my dudes. Good studios, in a large number of cases, Make good games. Yeah, you got your odd fish out of water Dirge of Cerberus' but by and large, if a studio got famous for making a racing game, they're probably pretty good at creating racing games.

It isn't a dollar and cent demographic issue. It's a dev issue. Tetris is a game about smashing blocks together. Papers, Please is all about immigration and shit or whatever. Silent Hill is literal hell. People are still drawn to these terribly mundane or just terrible in general scenarios because it's skillfully woven into a win/lose scenario that's mechanically satisfying to interact with.

When someone says something like "I can't do x because it won't make money," I usually take it as "I can't integrate this idea well enough to GET IT to make money,"

 

[Mr Moose]

Yep. Top center.

The game is not as de-structured as some may think. Hell, you can put custom waypoints and markers up the wazoo.

Oh shit, you're right, I was thinking like a GTA type thing and couldn't remember it.

Big ass games need maps and shit. I get lost easily.

 

[rkofan87]

good no map is no fun

 

[IAmRei]

Yeah a toggle would be nice because fuck wazti g time walking aimlessly around aap looking for shit. Tell me when K have to go & when and I'll be there... the hardo can waste their own time walking around like zombies..

To me, BOTW is still the most boring & overrated game I've ever played..

Maybe you just dont like exploration(?)

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Just leave an option to take off map, hints and markers off.
Then people will praise it because they are allergic to maps, towers, markers/being told where to go.

Everyone won’t get the same experience this way…

 

[Dr. Claus]

Just leave an option to take off map, hints and markers off.
Then people will praise it because they are allergic to maps, towers, markers/being told where to go.

The issue isn’t just the map and constant icons, it is how the world is designed and how it funnels you through it. If you removed every icon and the map in AC Odyssey or Valhalla, it still would not be as satisfying as BotW or Elden Ring because the world, dungeon, nad level design is all massively inferior. How the game funnels you through it, the various systems that tie into the exploration, how exploration allows natural growth of your character, etc.

 

[Starbuck2907]

You don’t know until you try.

No one thought the Demons Souls formula would be a hit either.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

People giving Elden Ring and Breath of the Wild as examples haven’t played TES Morrowind in a long while. LMAO.

A more closer example would be Sea of Thieves. But even that has relatively sparse maps and isn’t chockful of npcs, houses, locations etc.

 

[darrylgorn]

Currently playing Journey to the Savage Planet and there is no map, I get a generic destination marker. It's not so much an open world as a Metrovania.
I don't think it needs a map.

Funny, I found the game annoying as fuck to traverse but not because of lack of guidance. Just found the early game mobility a little too limited but trudged through because the environment was so beautiful and engaging.

I think that's the big factor, personally. If a game has a lot of repetitive, ubiquitous environments (like Fallout), it should probably come with a map with simple marker guidance.

 

[Varteras]

Bitch, I played Escape from Tarkov. Bring it on.

 

[thief183]

All they got to do is give people options. All can be turned on/off:

- Compass
- Building markers
- Distance tracker (Which I find ridiculous. As if a marker isnt easy enough, a gamer has to be told the item or NPC is 12 meters away.... 11.... 10.....)
- Red enemy dot markers

You can't just fking turn it off, you need yo think every single line of dialogue to explain the location or give you hints, you can't just turn it off, cause you'd be stuck.

 

[Allandor]

Laughs in Elden Ring and BOTW/TOTK.

And most of them play with guides or solution videos....
Well why not making thinks like maps etc optional.

Btw, who can say he/she played Elden ring without a guide and completed all the quests? At least I would say this is impossible as most of the quests are so weird.

 

[sendit]

Yeah a toggle would be nice because fuck wazti g time walking aimlessly around aap looking for shit. Tell me when K have to go & when and I'll be there... the hardo can waste their own time walking around like zombies..

To me, BOTW is still the most boring & overrated game I've ever played..

Agreed. Bought a Switch just to play BOTW (because FOMO) when it was released. Sold both the Switch and BOTW a week after buying it at a loss.

 

[Neff]

Make the game you want to make, budgeted accordingly.

Tell anyone who says you should dumb your game down to fuck off.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

I agree a Morrowind game would never be mainstream again, but are sales everything? If he actually cares, he should be making his indie passion project. I think while that kind of game will never hit mainstream again, there is still a 'large' enough niche market for it.

Game wont be a critical success. Reviewers will complain about stuff.

Then people won’t play it cause its obviously trash. Every streamer is making fun of it.

Then the dude would be questioning his life choices

 

[Duchess]

Hey, back in my day we had games like Dungeon Master, and Eye of the Beholder. We needed to have a pen and paper handy, to draw the map ourselves, and note all the interesting bits.

 

[SCB3]

You don’t know until you try.

No one thought the Demons Souls formula would be a hit either.

I mean it wasn't, Dark Souls was the big hit for FromSoft

 

[The Cockatrice]

Elden Ring has a map. Elden Ring has a compass. Elden Ring has points of interest. Elden Ring has shrines which reveal the map. Elden Ring has general guidance on what to do next.

Crazy how so many here on gaf upvoted that post lmao.

 

[xrnzaaas]

I would never disable HUD or map in a big game like TES, Witcher or even Assassin's Creed. They are created with UI and navigation markers in mind and I don't want to waste a ton of time trying to do the same things going blind. Quests should be a mix of both - don't force the player to find everything by himself, but some investigations and searches should involve some thinking and text reading rather than just going to the precise quest marker.

Starfield proved that was true. Just mapless cities was enough for people to trash the game. I loved it.

The maps were there, they were just completely useless and it's on Bethesda for not preparing hand-crafted more detailed ones. I don't know how this passed quality control, you can expect people will want to spend a lot of time in the cities and visit all the key places (and revisit later on). Plus the biggest cities were like mazes so it's even easier to get lost or miss some key NPC or store.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

guess it's people who never actually played morrowind (which is probably most people here).
navigating elden ring is an absolute cake walk compared to morrowind.

Morrowind is actually easier to navigate.

Both games have a map with a few markers on its own and you can add your own markers.
Both games have a compass (in Morrowind it is in the map screen only iirc, but it is there).

Morrowind additionally gives you a complete quest log with instructions for how to reach stuff, these instructions can be vague sometimes, but they ARE there. Elden Ring's "quests" are themselves kind of hidden and of course Morrowind is much more quest-driven.
In Morrowind, you can talk to the many NPCs about all the topics, including getting more instructions towards various locations.

Morrowind is obviously a bit dated in some aspects of its UI and the act of moving itself is more cumbersome (super slow walking speed, no horse, etc.), but feature-wise navigation is MUCH easier than Elden Ring.
The only thing in Elden Ring to make navigation easier is that the map is fully revealed (once the map parts are collected), while in Morrowind the map reveals only where you have been (+ some locations uncovered through dialogue).

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Just leave an option to take off map, hints and markers off.
Then people will praise it because they are allergic to maps, towers, markers/being told where to go.

The problem is with the design philosophy. Having to think conceptually on how to direct the player via text and geography is completely different than not having to think about it, since you can just put the marker.

I get what the guy is saying, but truth is nobody tried to make a game like Morrowind recently, so it's not like we have a huge sample.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I would never disable HUD or map in a big game like TES, Witcher or even Assassin's Creed. They are created with UI and navigation markers in mind and I don't want to waste a ton of time trying to do the same things going blind. Quests should be a mix of both - don't force the player to find everything by himself, but some investigations and searches should involve some thinking and text reading rather than just going to the precise quest marker.

Or don't play the game if you know it's not your style? Not everything has to be for everyone.

 

[Starbuck2907]

I mean it wasn't, Dark Souls was the big hit for FromSoft

Dark Souls got made because Demon’s Souls had exceeded projections. They don’t green light sequels to failed games.

It was the 31st best selling
PS3 game ever. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_3_video_games

On PlayStation, it sold more than Resident Evil 5, Minecraft, Red Dead Redemption, and Ratchet and Clank.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Or don't play the game if you know it's not your style? Not everything has to be for everyone.

That's why I wouldn't play a game like the new Zelda's - I know it's part of the experience of the game and I reckon I would be too frustrated from not having enough navigation options.
What I was saying is I wouldn't disable HUD or navigation tips if a game was created from the ground up with the idea of using them all the time.