Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Modern audiences suck…
In less angsty terms, controlling your budget and being able to thrive with a small niche of enlightened players is the key.
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'Very few' people would play a Morrowind-style RPG with 'no compass, no map' and a reliance on quest text, says ESO director, 'which is kind of sad'
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In less angsty terms, controlling your budget and being able to thrive with a small niche of enlightened players is the key.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It can, but not for a great subset of players whose expectations are that not having maps and quest points is horrible and intolerable. Games costs more and more to make and IMHO audiences are getting with worse and worse ADHD issues as time goes on.
Johnny Concrete
Member
Yes and the world is designed around it as well.
You can still make a natural looking environment and lead the player towards certain places. I feel like in most open world games the environment is made completely separate from the gameplay. They then pepper quests and stuff in afterwards, because with all the interface bullshit that guides the player everywhere it doesn't even matter.
Elden Ring is the fucking master in doing this the right way. You still get guided by interesting things on the map and in the world itself, but you feel like you discovered it on your own.
Fun fact: I dislike Elden Ring (and souls-likes in general) I think it's boring and it's tone is cringe.
But I can deny it's sales success.
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I came here to post this.
winjer
Gold Member
Since when did maps and compass become a bad thing? What an idiotic take.
Humans have been using maps and compasses to move around, for millennia.
Not only that, but also the stars during night and the sun during the day, to orient themselves. Or major landmarks, such as mountains.
Even during medieval times, there were plenty of signs and postings, to mark the paths to the most important places.
There were also inns, usually a days walking distance, where travelers could rest and ask for directions.
And let's not forget roads, that also served to mark the path to important towns. Some would even say they all lead to Rome.
Humans rarely move around blindly, even in ancient times. There were plenty of ways for a person to orient themselves.
Humans have been using maps and compasses to move around, for millennia.
Not only that, but also the stars during night and the sun during the day, to orient themselves. Or major landmarks, such as mountains.
Even during medieval times, there were plenty of signs and postings, to mark the paths to the most important places.
There were also inns, usually a days walking distance, where travelers could rest and ask for directions.
And let's not forget roads, that also served to mark the path to important towns. Some would even say they all lead to Rome.
Humans rarely move around blindly, even in ancient times. There were plenty of ways for a person to orient themselves.
SCB3
Member
Wasn't that due to how well Dark Souls and 2 did? People went back and bought Demons, I remember it not doing well at first and was more a cult hit, especially outside of Japan
Red5
Member
Ok first of all, Dark Souls, Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate 3 prove that there is a market for hardcore RPG's.
Second, you can make it optional, you can have an option to remove markers, hints and even the entire HUD UI all together, Witcher 3 did it, you have the option in Skyrim, even Metro series does it.
It's not a zero sum game, give players who prefer immersion and challenge the option.
Second, you can make it optional, you can have an option to remove markers, hints and even the entire HUD UI all together, Witcher 3 did it, you have the option in Skyrim, even Metro series does it.
It's not a zero sum game, give players who prefer immersion and challenge the option.
Cyberpunkd
Gold Member
Agreed, which is why I mentioned you either design for it or you don’t, not both.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
I mean gamefaqs was invented in the 1990s for a reason... Something people forget when they wax nostalgic about the good old days.
BbMajor7th
Member
I bet people told Miyazaki that when he was developing Demon's Souls:
"Bro, people want brown-grey, cover-based corridor shooters that make them feel like the hero."
"I'm gonna give 'em a janky green-grey medieval fantasy game that makes them feel like a hopeless piece of shit from start to finish."
"Players will hate it and you'll never work again."
"Bro, people want brown-grey, cover-based corridor shooters that make them feel like the hero."
"I'm gonna give 'em a janky green-grey medieval fantasy game that makes them feel like a hopeless piece of shit from start to finish."
"Players will hate it and you'll never work again."
Sorcerer
Member
I recall Morrowind having maps and markers. Granted they were pretty terrible maps and markers, basically just showing you the destination point but really not a clear path of how to get there. For example, having to have an ability to leap 100 feet in the air to clear a mountain. LOL!!!
bigdad2007
Member
Morrowind had a map and compass but just like in real life navigation you had to stop and decipher the map and decide where to go.
Modern games go beyond having a map and compass, the bane of exploration is the checkpoint compass that at all times points you to where you need to go.
Modern games go beyond having a map and compass, the bane of exploration is the checkpoint compass that at all times points you to where you need to go.
SlimeGooGoo
Banned
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No compass, no maps is a bit of a hyperbole. Morrowind had these things. But it's a difference having a map or have everything (literally) printed out for you on said map or even with 3D icons floating around you.
Of course if you make a game that costs hundreds of millions to make you want to reach even the most casual and 'limited' audience to make that money back. If you make a game for a 'few', although how much few really is is debatable, you can pull it off. The often refered Elden Ring struck a good middleground without leading you per GPS but give you enough information to move into the right direction.
Of course if you make a game that costs hundreds of millions to make you want to reach even the most casual and 'limited' audience to make that money back. If you make a game for a 'few', although how much few really is is debatable, you can pull it off. The often refered Elden Ring struck a good middleground without leading you per GPS but give you enough information to move into the right direction.
Doom_master1122
Member
I kind of agree. I don't think a Morrowind style game would do well with the masses. It would work with Morrowind fans but I highly doubt anyone else. Much of today's RPGs or open world game's really hand hold the player in the direction they need to go and what to do rather than giving information for the player to problem solve with.
I see comparisons to Elden ring and Zelda BoTW, but those aren't even comparable as they are completely different in design. Yes, all games are open world, however how the gameplay is structured makes it far different.
In Breath of the wild your focus is finding new things to explore and hitting all the divine beasts. Of which they're pretty clearly labeled where you need to go. If you find any side quests they basically tell you where the quest will take place or an area. The NPC's don't give you specifics of where to go other than "Go to X named camp and do Y", making it quite obvious. The quest designs are much closer to Skyrim's design than Morrowind, as the focus is guiding the player where they want you to go, and a completion of the quest.
Elden ring's game design is also quite different. Your goal is layed out with the sites of grace pointing you, giving you a rough idea what has to be done and where to go. The game's focus is exploration and getting new items, and slowly improving yourself for bosses as you work your way through the world. If an area is too hard, you can freely move to another area and keep trying. Much like Morrowind, however the quest design is where it separates itself again. You meet and NPC randomly that might need help, or something to help them. Its more of a side activity approach that lets you gather lore and story for that character.
Morrowind's quests are the meat of the game itself, it's focus. The quests are what you are primarily doing when you play the game. While yes, exploring random caves and dungeons will be a chunk of your time, its usually paired up with a goal, or quest you are doing. Breath of the wild had you exploring to upgrade yourself so you can finish the game. Same with Elden ring. Morrowind's focus is completing quests. As you do so you gain new gear as rewards, stuff you find, and subsequently level up as you passively play.
With how quests are written with no markers, and the notes from your journal + the dialog system from the NPC's, you are forced to explore and learn the world around you and take notes. The first few quests of the game on your way to Balmora emphasize this with a very note worthy one being the woman who wants you to hand a glove over to a guy who robbed her as her sign of affection to him. She tells you where he roughly went, and how to get there. Eventually leading you to a tavern in a town. There's also multiple ways to complete many of the quests, and tons of fail factors included where you just don't succeed at the quest. With BoTW your only real fail state is death.
I think comparisons are being made as all the games ultimately let you run free in a world, however the games either still hold your hand, or the structure is much different. Elden ring definitely has a "no hand hold" style to it, but the game is largely about exploring, killing bosses, gearing up and leveling up to kill stronger bosses. BoTW is more about exploring and gaining strength for the final boss.
Morrowind focuses on more intricate quest designs as its main gameplay. It gives the players all the information they need to problem solve the goal they have to achieve.
I see comparisons to Elden ring and Zelda BoTW, but those aren't even comparable as they are completely different in design. Yes, all games are open world, however how the gameplay is structured makes it far different.
In Breath of the wild your focus is finding new things to explore and hitting all the divine beasts. Of which they're pretty clearly labeled where you need to go. If you find any side quests they basically tell you where the quest will take place or an area. The NPC's don't give you specifics of where to go other than "Go to X named camp and do Y", making it quite obvious. The quest designs are much closer to Skyrim's design than Morrowind, as the focus is guiding the player where they want you to go, and a completion of the quest.
Elden ring's game design is also quite different. Your goal is layed out with the sites of grace pointing you, giving you a rough idea what has to be done and where to go. The game's focus is exploration and getting new items, and slowly improving yourself for bosses as you work your way through the world. If an area is too hard, you can freely move to another area and keep trying. Much like Morrowind, however the quest design is where it separates itself again. You meet and NPC randomly that might need help, or something to help them. Its more of a side activity approach that lets you gather lore and story for that character.
Morrowind's quests are the meat of the game itself, it's focus. The quests are what you are primarily doing when you play the game. While yes, exploring random caves and dungeons will be a chunk of your time, its usually paired up with a goal, or quest you are doing. Breath of the wild had you exploring to upgrade yourself so you can finish the game. Same with Elden ring. Morrowind's focus is completing quests. As you do so you gain new gear as rewards, stuff you find, and subsequently level up as you passively play.
With how quests are written with no markers, and the notes from your journal + the dialog system from the NPC's, you are forced to explore and learn the world around you and take notes. The first few quests of the game on your way to Balmora emphasize this with a very note worthy one being the woman who wants you to hand a glove over to a guy who robbed her as her sign of affection to him. She tells you where he roughly went, and how to get there. Eventually leading you to a tavern in a town. There's also multiple ways to complete many of the quests, and tons of fail factors included where you just don't succeed at the quest. With BoTW your only real fail state is death.
I think comparisons are being made as all the games ultimately let you run free in a world, however the games either still hold your hand, or the structure is much different. Elden ring definitely has a "no hand hold" style to it, but the game is largely about exploring, killing bosses, gearing up and leveling up to kill stronger bosses. BoTW is more about exploring and gaining strength for the final boss.
Morrowind focuses on more intricate quest designs as its main gameplay. It gives the players all the information they need to problem solve the goal they have to achieve.
Humdinger
Member
I loved Morrowind, but he's right. I had to use a manual to help me figure things out, and I spent a lot of time just wandering around lost. The quest journal was a mess, too, which didn't help. I had the patience for it back then because Morrowind was my first RPG and I was amazed at it. I was willing to put in the work and the time. I'm not anymore, though. I don't think many people are.
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