He lost the battle, not the war.
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Vice: "Corbyn Won Because Hope Turned the Unthinkable Into Reality"
- Thread starter AuthenticM
- Start date
TomWaitsForNoMan
Banned
The NDP lost half their seats after they replaced a popular left wing leader with a moderate* and were outflanked by a party who promised to run a budget deficit to raise public spending. Your example doesn't show what you think it shows.
(*I know he died)
Jezbollah
Member
I bet Student Fees was it.
SpaceCadetKeon
Banned
God fucking dammit, I was thinking the same thing. XD
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
libs before the election: "the chaos that is the Labour party under Jeremy Corbyn is solely because of how bad going to the left would be shows why we need to stick with centrists"
libs after the election: "uh actually literally every other factor than Corbyn and the social democratic manifesto are what caused Labour's success"
Hierophant
Banned
But young people don't matter we have to keep the status quo no matter what because corbyn is unelectable other than the fact that people want him elected and he won party leadership by the largest margin twice
Henchmen21
Banned
Lol pretty much exactly what happened with Bernie. Glad the UK/Corbyn was able to fight back though.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Yeah I've come to the conclusion that there are a lot on the left who are progressive up to the point it might cost them a bit extra in taxes or strip them of other advantages over the marginalised. Can't think of any other reason there's such resistance. People that benefit from the status quo are reluctant to give it up.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I am 100% for higher taxes because I can comfortably pay for them. My parents wouldn't be, because they cannot
Hierophant
Banned
I actually listened to what Corbyn was saying and turns out I agree with most of what he was saying, I went back and listened to Bernie and I agree with what he was saying too.
My generation desires real change, not this centrist narrative of change coming at a glacial pace, where most of my generation are coming to terms with not being able to buy a house and the extremely uncertain world of climate fuckery we're entering, we'd rather go much further left than stay in the middle.
the idea is that people who are hurting right now will end up getting a lot more in terms of government services than they pay in taxes, shifting wealth downwards from the rich
that's the entire idea behind progressive taxation
Henchmen21
Banned
I think a lot of it too is that they wear it as some sort of status symbol. Like "Look at me! Aren't I soooooo liberal!" while they donate to charities but always shun policies that would address the root cause of said issues.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Yeah i'm not talking about people that are struggling financially. I'm talking about relatively wealthy liberals who preach about social issues but don't want to pay a real price to help lift others out of poverty.
LOL this is such bs and you know it. It would be Layton and not Trudeau right now as pm if cancer hadn't killed him
Sometimes I feel like these people are a bigger threat to progress than full-throated conservatives. The pendulum always swings back in democracy (unless you're japan) but that doesn't help when the "left" party abandons its ideals to court conservatives who are too ashamed or embarrassed to admit they're conservatives.
Pretty much the centrist story the world over.
Henchmen21
Banned
Not really sure what this means. Can you explain for me?
Oh I got you. "Limousine Liberals" is the common term. People who wouldn't benefit from raising Min. Wage to $15hr so never fight for it.
It's funny how the hippies of the 60s-70s so readily became the yuppies of 80s-90s.
TomWaitsForNoMan
Banned
No you see the fact that the NDP declined after a left wing leader was replaced by a moderate proves that Labour should have replaced their left wing leader with a moderate because hnnnnnnnnnnnggggggg
Unfortunately, Brexit is (at least semi-) permanent so even a massive chain reaction in which people wake the fuck up will leave damage. Our Trump mistake will wash away in time. Brexit appears to be forever.
Randomizer
Member
Nah more to do with income and generational inequality. Tuition fees are raising, student debts are massive, wages are stagnant, jobs security is gone with things like 0 hour contracts, student nurses needing food banks, housing ownership dropping as a result. Then you have benefits being cut for under 21's and more kids growing up in poverty than ever.
Henchmen21
Banned
These things aren't new, though.
Corbyn also won because theresa may decided it would be a good idea to grab more power by calling a snap election which seems to have backfired pretty hard like what happened with other conservative parties that called snap elections in the past year or two all over the world.The UK conservatives got lucky they never experienced a Alberta 2015 style backlash for their snap election on thursday.
electroshockwave
Member
I've been thinking that Trump was the more obviously bad decision but unless he does something extraordinarily bad before he goes Brexit is going to screw us over so much more in the long term.
Stead Fast
Banned
Indeed, a lot of people need to remember that even the call for an EU referendum was already setting off alarm bells across Europe itself. It's not like the EU is a shelter the UK can simply choose to be in or out of on a whim, reversing our stances because a further vote indicates it. It is a living, breathing political body that encompasses a mass of people several times the size of the UK - many of whom would feel the rippling effects of a country deciding the EU "just wasn't for them, anymore." Is it fair on any of them that we dance this sad little dance of "do we, don't we"?
After making such an arrogant display of xenophobia on a national scale, being swayed by obvious lies and falsehoods, and disregarding all the good the EU had done for us, the rest of Europe looked on with worry and words of encouragement that we'd be better with them. We ignored that. We rocked their stability as well as our own. No matter how many little loopholes people may try to find - Europe will not want us back after all of this, and I can't blame them.
Btw, I think it's worth noting that Survation (the poll who were most accurate) had May at 40% on April 22nd, three days after calling the election. Her final numbers were 42.4%. So overall she didn't actually go down, she went up. The real difference comes from Corbyn shooting up from 29% to 40%. To me that suggests his strengths more than May's weakness's were the biggest factor.
Randomizer
Member
Yes but Jeremy Corbyn and the socialist policies offered within Labour's manifesto were. We finally have a main party with left wing ideals again and not some small undetectable party like the Greens.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Unfortunately the Labour platform promises to end free movement. At least they want to keep Erasmus. A generation fucked over by Brexit. The fact that they voted Labour in droves despite this is interesting. Know a girl who shared Guy Verhofstadt posts about preserving EU citizenship rights for future generations yet jumped fully onto the Corbyn train. Still voted Labour though, no other viable alternative out there who could form government. At Least Labour is still a fundamentally pro EU party at the grassroots level and will maintain close ties with the rest of Europe.
Henchmen21
Banned
While her poll numbers may have gone up (slightly), she cost the Tories dearly. She lost them seats they hadn't lost in nearly a century.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Brexit sucks but the main worry for me is having it done under the tories. I want a lexit that reduces the harm to the most vulnerable and protects rights we might lose under the tories if possible. I think we dodged a bullet by not giving a blank cheque to theresa may.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Ultimately a weak Theresa May is a good thing because she will be forced to compromise to the Conservative liberal pro-EU wing or get kicked out. The rabid brexiteers will rage and kick up a fuss but then the soft brexit people can get other parties to push stuff through. The Conservative party's MP's are mostly pro-EU and are only grudgingly going through with brexit
Were those seats not lost because of the youth vote? I'm talking about the massive swing seats. Canterbury was for sure lost because of the youth vote. The youth vote that never turned up before Corbyn.
Henchmen21
Banned
Not sure. I'm an american looking in on this stuff so just have off-hand knowledge about it. Someone from Britgaf would have better info. I just remember hearing about it.
Frozenprince
Banned
If the EU survives, I think within a generation the UK may petition to be entered again.
Though it will probably be at least a few decades.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Youth vote did good, really sent a strong message out, I finally feel that there is a tiny ray of hope for this country.
jellies_two
Member
The guardian has a really good video on election night on YouTube the guy actually goes out to speak to people outside polling stations he visits "old Britain" (brexit) as well as urban centers (labour).
The excitement of the youth realizing they do have enough vote to overturn what was "inevitable" is palpable. And I think the next opportunity they will be more energized still.
The excitement of the youth realizing they do have enough vote to overturn what was "inevitable" is palpable. And I think the next opportunity they will be more energized still.
ShemhazaiX
Member
Man, this thread is so weird compared to the actual election thread. It's like night and day seeing all the people in here who have absolutely no fucking clue what they're talking about.
No one else could have won the election, because without Corbyn there wouldn't be an election to win.
You have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't have an anti-Brexit sentiment. His manifesto pledged to take us out of the single market and restrict freedom of movement. The difference is he said he'd focus primarily on securing jobs above all else, rather than going with the stupid "NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL" sound bite.
She isn't making deals with the Lib Dems because they REFUSE to make deals with her. The DUP are her only options, and they're going to take her to town because she has no choice in the matter if she wants to pass ANYTHING. And even then she'll have rebel MPs in constituencies with less than a few hundred votes between them and the opposition who'll sure as hell start sweating when it comes to voting in the commons (especially over Brexit and anything to do with the DUP. There are nearly 20 gay Tory MPs who will want nothing to do with the DUP at all).
You really think May would have called a snap election if the opposition was led by someone she considered a threat? This is the dumbest argument ever, and one that's constantly perpetuated.
No one else could have won the election, because without Corbyn there wouldn't be an election to win.
You have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't have an anti-Brexit sentiment. His manifesto pledged to take us out of the single market and restrict freedom of movement. The difference is he said he'd focus primarily on securing jobs above all else, rather than going with the stupid "NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL" sound bite.
She isn't making deals with the Lib Dems because they REFUSE to make deals with her. The DUP are her only options, and they're going to take her to town because she has no choice in the matter if she wants to pass ANYTHING. And even then she'll have rebel MPs in constituencies with less than a few hundred votes between them and the opposition who'll sure as hell start sweating when it comes to voting in the commons (especially over Brexit and anything to do with the DUP. There are nearly 20 gay Tory MPs who will want nothing to do with the DUP at all).
I can't see an honest way to look at the election results (particularly the high youth turnout) and not conclude that Labour was doing something very right strategically, even if you disagree with their platform... unless you're going in with an a priori assumption that leftist politics are inherently doomed to electoral failure.
I've come to believe that these people are so wedded to the notion of themselves as the coolheaded, rational adults in the room that they will never, ever admit they were wrong about any politics to the left of their own.
I'm amazed by people who say this isn't a win for Corbyn. He has dragged the Labour party kicking and screaming further to the Left and has encouraged the youth to come out in numbers unseen for at least the last two decades. He has fought two leadership elections, the second one being because his own MPs along with his own cabinet tried to organise a coup which ultimately failed as he won another landslide victory. He has been derided by his MPs, the press, he was 20+ points behind in the polls with constant calls for him to resign before this election with the PLP hoping to use this election as an excuse to be rid of him for good. Now he has gained seats including in Canterbury and Kensington, has forced the same MPs who opposed him to eat humble pie and support him, given Labour a chance to win the next general election and has basically come out of this as the most powerful and secured party leader in the country.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I'm not amazed. Some people are very invested in wanting to see him fail.
Yep it's great
People will go to such great lengths to avoid admitting that working class policies are popular and necessary
What absolute rot.
I'm thrilled that Corbyn did so well, but this is a terrible article. The amount of bullshit in the first paragraph is difficult to get past:
This was true and a legitimate cause for concern.
Pointless bit of spin here. "A positive programme and by offering then something tangible rather than branding and empty phrases" was always a good thing. Relying on the youth vote was a risky strategy and it's to Corbyn's credit that he was able to pull it off.
The worst line of the article, this is the opposite of true. I've never seen anyone argue this, it's ridiculous to claim that "everyone" thought it.
Again this is a mile from the truth. Some people thought that Labour's best chances was to appeal more to the centre. Some others thought it wasn't the left wing ideals that were the problem but Jeremy himself (he has been a woeful opposition leader).
The worst part of this article though is the narrative it encourages. It pushes the "us Vs them" mentality within the Labour party itself, where everyone is either a secret commie Corbynista or a Tory-lite saboteur. This division has been the single biggest obstacle to Labour's success, and it is absolutely ridiculous that Vice have tried to reinforce it now that everyone is willing to rally behind Corbyn.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
In modern British politics you rarely get a surprise majority. Usually a party gets to power with a solid win at the expense of a tired governing party, having made solid gains over the previous administrations. It is very difficult to go from comfortably out of power as Labour were to a majority. Hell, in 2010 after the financial crisis, a bad leader and 13 years of New Labour (who did many great things but also pursued an illegal war and who took political lying to a new level) the Conservatives still couldn't get a majority. These things take time.
The bigger issue is that the Conservative party is in tatters. They continually play personal politics with serious issues of the nation. The idea that they are a sensible governing party is broken. With Boris waiting in the wings it isn't about to get repaired either. They cannot be trusted and the longer they prolong this the worse it will get for them.
The bigger issue is that the Conservative party is in tatters. They continually play personal politics with serious issues of the nation. The idea that they are a sensible governing party is broken. With Boris waiting in the wings it isn't about to get repaired either. They cannot be trusted and the longer they prolong this the worse it will get for them.
To me this election was about brexit.
People were misled last year by the media and Russian fake news that brexit would work. Now many people feel they were lied to and are voting against that.
Corbin might be willing to state his personal feelings rather than what an opposition leader had to say, and allow a referendum on the brexit deal.
That said, maybe it's better for the U.K. To leave. You want to talk about frustrating legislation, the U.K. Have been a thorn I. The side of European integration for a long time. Europe might be better without them.
People were misled last year by the media and Russian fake news that brexit would work. Now many people feel they were lied to and are voting against that.
Corbin might be willing to state his personal feelings rather than what an opposition leader had to say, and allow a referendum on the brexit deal.
That said, maybe it's better for the U.K. To leave. You want to talk about frustrating legislation, the U.K. Have been a thorn I. The side of European integration for a long time. Europe might be better without them.
Chuckie
Member
Wow...that is the most fitting tagline for a movie ever. Just not the way they intended.
What a bunch of crap.
Increasing taxes is a redistributive measure by definition. Someone poor would get better off by an increase in taxes than the other way around.
The propaganda from the rich class of the US make me fucking mad.
Unelectable and the most electable candidate ever, the two faces of the same corporativism propaganda. The US deserve Trump, bunch of rich dick-riding scumbags.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
huh? increasing taxes to pay for things that would be beneficial for people at the lower end could end up being better for them but it doesn't have to be. Those funds could be used to buy top hats for the entire country, which would not be beneficial. Unless I'm misreading what you are saying.
It is annoying when people decry tax increases as redistribution of wealth, which is a tautology. All taxation is a redistribution of wealth.
One thing that is clear when discussing taxation is how few people understand progressive taxation.
Corbyn won by having a very good campaign whilst May also ran a very bad campaign.
Corbyn managed to force a hung parliament when even U.K. Poligaf were resigned to the Conservatives having a super majority mere days before the election.
No Corbyn didn't win, but he did force a draw unifying his own party in the process and fracturing the Conservative party as well.
When an inevitable second election is called this year, the Labour Party are in an excellent position to form a majority in the House of Commons, whilst the opposite is true for the Conservatives.
Corbyn managed to force a hung parliament when even U.K. Poligaf were resigned to the Conservatives having a super majority mere days before the election.
No Corbyn didn't win, but he did force a draw unifying his own party in the process and fracturing the Conservative party as well.
When an inevitable second election is called this year, the Labour Party are in an excellent position to form a majority in the House of Commons, whilst the opposite is true for the Conservatives.
As somebody who was making the first argument before Corbyn's success, what frustrates me about the second argument is that Corbyn had an actual theory for his victory, which he propounded before the election, and which then proceeded to happen. It's not like some unexplainable fluke! He said he'd get high youth turnout and then he did exactly that. That deserves some careful consideration!