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[Open Source]

Apparently you can, and recent polling shows it may just work.

Obama was going to cut the deficit in half, because large deficits are unamerican. Unfortunately the plan that never works, grow your way into the black, hasn't produced. It didn't work in the 90s when we had cheap energy, a rebounding economy, the tech bubble, and pre-retirement boomers swelling the treasury coffers (surplus was a myth - it was created by social security payments being redirected to pay off public debt - overall us debt went up every year in the 90s). It didn't work in the deregulated, tax-cut, housing bubble 2000s.

Growth is important, of course, but balancing the budget with growth alone is as much of a fantasy as the idea that we can pay for everything by taxing the rich.

Now we're paying close to $500 billion a year in interest, which is actually lowball given that interest rates on that debt are incredibly low right now. That could buy a lot of nice stuff...a real universal health care plan, for example. It's essentially prosperity that was shifted to the past. And we're continuing to put our future deeper in hock.

The fed is doing the same thing with the inflation bomb it is building - over a trillion dollars pulled from thin air and directly or indirectly used to finance the deficit. When inflation finally hits as money velocity picks up, it will be brutal - 70s style stagflation but probably even more pronounced. But at least it's keeping those stock portfolios propped up!

Note: the budget doesn't need to be balanced every year. Just overall across the entirety of the business cycle.

 

[pigeon]

That's true. I think it's more of an overall reflection on how piss-poor the global economy is right now (particularly the EU) than any ringing endorsement of our economic policies.

I still maintain this is something we need to get ahead of in advance instead of waiting for that train to come rolling into station. You know, while we still have a say in it versus the next big economic crisis.

As Churchill famously quipped: "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing--after they've tried everything else."

empty vessel has strong posts about this, but I'll just note that even if this is true, we'll have plenty of time to start reacting to it when we start seeing movement in the yields. The one time we definitely do not need to worry about reacting to it is in the middle of a sluggish recovery from a global recession, which is where we are right now.

 

[NullPointer]

The national debt does not matter.

<3

Do you understand what money is? It's a thing fabricated from nothing. A social construct.

 

[-PXG-]

Biden's the bus driver

YESS!!!!

 

[JaggedSac]

That cartoon has nothing to do with what I posted. I'm 100% in favor of raising taxes and maintaining a balanced budget (a la Clinton).

Didn't Bush senior raise the tax rates?

 

[strobogo]

What is the appropriate way to look when your opponent is answering? Romney is a creeper for his leering, fake smile. Obama is a disrespectful pussy for having his head down and not looking at Mitt. Ryan looks like an android with practiced in the mirror face. Biden is a dick for laughing, smiling, or looking exasperated at the crazier comments. Is there any appropriate facial expression while the opponent is talking?

 

[The Technomancer]

I thought Biden laughing was absolutely amazing, but then I genuinely hate Ryan, so I may not represent the average American

 

[RDreamer]

What is the appropriate way to look when your opponent is answering? Romney is a creeper for his leering, fake smile. Obama is a disrespectful pussy for having his head down and not looking at Mitt. Ryan looks like an android with practiced in the mirror face. Biden is a dick for laughing, smiling, or looking exasperated at the crazier comments. Is there any appropriate facial expression while the opponent is talking?

Depends on the opponent. I absolutely think Biden's laughing was appropriate for his opponent and what he was saying

 

[SquiddyCracker]

What is the appropriate way to look when your opponent is answering? Romney is a creeper for his leering, fake smile. Obama is a disrespectful pussy for having his head down and not looking at Mitt. Ryan looks like an android with practiced in the mirror face. Biden is a dick for laughing, smiling, or looking exasperated at the crazier comments. Is there any appropriate facial expression while the opponent is talking?

Looking at your opponent with approving nods.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

What is the appropriate way to look when your opponent is answering? Romney is a creeper for his leering, fake smile. Obama is a disrespectful pussy for having his head down and not looking at Mitt. Ryan looks like an android with practiced in the mirror face. Biden is a dick for laughing, smiling, or looking exasperated at the crazier comments. Is there any appropriate facial expression while the opponent is talking?

The only way to do it?

Lust-face.

 

[Tragicomedy]

empty vessel has strong posts about this, but I'll just note that even if this is true, we'll have plenty of time to start reacting to it when we start seeing movement in the yields. The one time we definitely do not need to worry about reacting to it is in the middle of a sluggish recovery from a global recession, which is where we are right now.

Well, I understand the logic of not slowing down spending too much right now, as it could cause things to spiral back into a full-blown recession.

I'm just amazed that there are people out there who don't believe our debt levels or how many billions of dollars we pay in interest to foreign investors every month is a problem.

I'm equally amazed at the ideology that we can just print money to pay off our debts. I remember reading about the Weimar Republic doing that in the 1920s. It didn't work out too well. I lived through a similarly flawed (though less catastrophic) effort to do the same in Argentina in the late 80s. I remember when 1.5 Argentine Australes was worth a US dollar. Two years later, 10,000 Australes equaled a dollar. Which ended up working out slightly to my benefit since I was paid in dollars, but it was awful for that nation's population.

 

[empty vessel]

Obama was going to cut the deficit in half, because large deficits are unamerican. Unfortunately the plan that never works, grow your way into the black, hasn't produced. It didn't work in the 90s when we had cheap energy, a rebounding economy, the tech bubble, and pre-retirement boomers swelling the treasury coffers (surplus was a myth - it was created by social security payments being redirected to pay off public debt - overall us debt went up every year in the 90s).

Er, this is totally false. The US government ran surpluses in the late 90s, to disastrous effect (recession in the early 2000s and set the table for the recent depression). There is no such thing as tax payments being "redirected," because payments, once collected by any arm of the government, represent the destruction of money. What you mean to say is that payroll taxes were included in the calculation of government net spending. As they should be. The divisions between different types of tax collection (and spending) as it relates to the government are totally artificial and have no real world significance.

Growth is important, of course, but balancing the budget with growth alone is as much of a fantasy as the idea that we can pay for everything by taxing the rich.

We don't pay for anything. The government gives us money. It then taxes it back.

Now we're paying close to $500 billion a year in interest, which is actually lowball given that interest rates on that debt are incredibly low right now. That could buy a lot of nice stuff...a real universal health care plan, for example. It's essentially prosperity that was shifted to the past. And we're continuing to put our future deeper in hock.

Nope. This presumes that the government is not the source of money. It is.

 

[Kinvara]

The only way to do it?

Lust-face.

*slowly licks lips*

 

[User Name Here]

From http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox...ious_claims_from_the_biden_ryan_showdown.html

4. Paul Ryan on partisanship: In 2009-10 "they had the ability to do anything of their choosing." That's nuts. In the real world, a minority of 41 senators can block almost any legislative measure. What's more, even smaller numbers of senators can create massive delays in the legislative process. The Republican caucus in 2009-10 was unusually aggressive in deploying these tools and it had a major impact on the course of legislation. GOP filibusters blocked the DREAM Act, kept Federal Reserve and Federal Housing Finance Agency offices vacant, killed hope for climate change legislation, blocked a number of fiscal stimulus measures, and so forth.

Even I picked up on this one!

Spoiler

Ok, i'm full of crap. I only knew that the GOP had control of the senate for two years.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

The media is desperately trying to keep the narrative intact, but the post-debate polls show Ryan lost.

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

"@gatewaypundit DEMOCRATS thought Biden did great. He was rude, smirked, unhinged, mean... All the qualities liberals admire."



Not all liberals admire this, but people who don't see this behavior as automatically causing you to lose any debate about anything period are what's wrong with discourse in this country.

To have a Vice President laughing for an hour and half at a low point in the countries history is unsettling.

I have never really disliked the VP before tonight. I've always found him funny and affable, even relatable, but tonight all I could focus on was how rude, undignified, disrespectful and arrogant he was. You cannot complain about being incapable of working with Republicans in Congress when this is the decorum that you use to communicate with their leaders.

I really felt as though Biden was unhinged, as if the Joker had sprayed him in the face with laughing gas. It was so distracting and disturbing. I'm giving him an hour and half of my time and he's laughing his butt off like the issues we're facing are a big joke.

I understand we live in a hyper-partisan time in American history, but do Democrats seriously believe Joe Biden has the demeanor to be President of the United States? I have no problem with the President's demeanor, but the man I saw tonight a heartbeat away from the Presidency is wrong. Demeanor counts in diplomacy and this was bizarre and unbecoming demeanor I saw tonight, not befitting a President or VP.


And anyone who wants to compare Biden's debate performance to Romney: There's a difference between being aggressive and sitting there smirking and laughing the whole time your opponent is speaking. Also constantly pointing with your finger and speaking angry at the debate moderator was off-putting.

 

[watershed]

The reason the media is pushing the narrative of a tie is to put as much pressure on Obama for the next debate as possible. If you say Biden won then it let's some of that pressure subside and gives democrats a reason to breath a sigh of relief if not celebrate. Say it was a tie then everyone is on pins and needles and makes sure to tune into the next Presidential debate with hype levels on full blast.

 

[RDreamer]

Well, I understand the logic of not slowing down spending too much right now, as it could cause things to spiral back into a full-blown recession.

I'm just amazed that there are people out there who don't believe our debt levels or how many billions of dollars we pay in interest to foreign investors every month is a problem.

I'm equally amazed at the ideology that we can just print money to pay off our debts. I remember reading about the Weimar Republic doing that in the 1920s. It didn't work out too well. I lived through a similarly flawed (though less catastrophic) effort to do the same in Argentina in the late 80s. I remember when 1.5 Argentine Australes was worth a US dollar. Two years later, 10,000 Australes equaled a dollar. Which ended up working out slightly to my benefit since I was paid in dollars, but it was awful for that nation's population.

Weimar is a bit different:

The typical story about Weimar Germany is that the government began to freely print a fiat money with no gold standing behind it, with no regard for the hyperinflationary consequences. The reality is more complex. First, we must understand that even in the early 20th century, most governments spent by issuing IOUs—albeit many were convertible on demand to sterling or gold. Germany had lost WWI and suffered under the burden of impossibly large reparations payments—that had to be made in gold. To make matters worse, much of its productive capacity had been destroyed or captured, and it had little gold reserves. It was supposed to export to earn the gold needed to make the payments demanded by the victors. (Keynes wrote his first globally famous book arguing that Germany could not possibly pay the debts—note these were external debts denominated essentially in gold.)

The nation’s productive capacity was not even sufficient to satisfy domestic demand, much less to export to pay reparations. Government knew that it was not only economically impossible but also politically impossible to impose taxes at a sufficient level to move resources to the public sector for exports to make the reparations payments. So instead it relied on spending. This meant government competed with domestic demand for a limited supply of output—driving prices up. At the same time, Germany’s domestic producers had to borrow abroad (in foreign currency) to buy needed imports. Rising prices plus foreign borrowing caused depreciation of the domestic currency, which increased necessitous borrowing (since foreign imports cost more in terms of domestic currency) and at the same time increased the cost of the reparations in terms of domestic currency.

The problem in a lot of the cases brought up against MMT (The theory EV is touting that states debt doesn't matter in and of itself) is that these countries have debt in foreign currency. This is also the problem going on in Europe right now, and why they're all pretty fucked. The US doesn't have this problem and will never have this problem as long as we're the sole issuer of our currency.

 

[The Technomancer]

Biden's laughter was exactly what most of what Ryan was saying deserved. I despise that man.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Meh, if I was Biden I'd be laughing at the BS Ryan was trying to pass as fact too. It's a debate

/shrug.

 

[codhand]

There's a difference between being aggressive and sitting there smirking and laughing the whole time your opponent is speaking. Also constantly pointing with your finger and speaking angry at the debate moderator was off-putting.

You should focus on issues and where each candidate stands.

 

[Allard]

The media is desperately trying to keep the narrative intact, but the post-debate polls show Ryan lost.

Snap polls are a barometer but shouldn't be taken as fact (history shows snap polls can say someone won and then a couple days later have no change or even a loss of percentage after people had a chance to sleep on it) but if we saw anything last week it would certainly be nice for a bump for Obama even if small, I will be interested to see if this swings any state polls and for how much. I at least think this debate stopped the hemorrhaging and if it did then Obama is still on track to win the election but obviously not by as much as he was before the debate last week.

 

[FLEABttn]

"@gatewaypundit DEMOCRATS thought Biden did great. He was rude, smirked, unhinged, mean... All the qualities liberals admire."



Not all liberals admire this, but people who don't see this behavior as automatically causing you to lose any debate about anything period are what's wrong with discourse in this country.

To have a Vice President laughing for an hour and half at a low point in the countries history is unsettling.

I have never really disliked the VP before tonight. I've always found him funny and affable, even relatable, but tonight all I could focus on was how rude, undignified, disrespectful and arrogant he was. You cannot complain about being incapable of working with Republicans in Congress when this is the decorum that you use to communicate with their leaders.

I really felt as though Biden was unhinged, as if the Joker had sprayed him in the face with laughing gas. It was so distracting and disturbing. I'm giving him an hour and half of my time and he's laughing his butt off like the issues we're facing are a big joke.

I understand we live in a hyper-partisan time in American history, but do Democrats seriously believe Joe Biden has the demeanor to be President of the United States? I have no problem with the President's demeanor, but the man I saw tonight a heartbeat away from the Presidency is wrong. Demeanor counts in diplomacy and this was bizarre and unbecoming demeanor I saw tonight, not befitting a President or VP.


And anyone who wants to compare Biden's debate performance to Romney: There's a difference between being aggressive and sitting there smirking and laughing the whole time your opponent is speaking. Also constantly pointing with your finger and speaking angry at the debate moderator was off-putting.

Let's not kid ourselves, you were voting for Romney anyways, so Biden's performance was going to get a negative review regardless.

 

[GCX]

International headline consensus seems to be something along the lines of "Joe Biden stole the show - in good and bad"

 

[Duffyside]

As a person who hates "lol," and "lawl" responses with a passion, it pains me to see so many of GAF thinking Biden's demeanor was at all acceptable during this debate. A dark future of internet discourse awaits.

... "lol."

 

[Trurl]

I want to see Krugman's reaction to this debate so badly. Ryan has had no foe more persistent.

 

[Evlar]

Weimar is a bit different:



The problem in a lot of the cases brought up against MMT (The theory EV is touting that states debt doesn't matter in and of itself) is that these countries have debt in foreign currency. This is also the problem going on in Europe right now, and why they're all pretty fucked. The US doesn't have this problem and will never have this problem as long as we're the sole issuer of our currency.

Yup.

Sometimes in these arguments it seems people believe only four countries in the history of the world have borrowed money: Weimar Germany, Argentina, and Zimbabwe, and US is fourth.

 

[Doc Holliday]

"@gatewaypundit DEMOCRATS thought Biden did great. He was rude, smirked, unhinged, mean... All the qualities liberals admire."



Not all liberals admire this, but people who don't see this behavior as automatically causing you to lose any debate about anything period are what's wrong with discourse in this country.

To have a Vice President laughing for an hour and half at a low point in the countries history is unsettling.

I have never really disliked the VP before tonight. I've always found him funny and affable, even relatable, but tonight all I could focus on was how rude, undignified, disrespectful and arrogant he was. You cannot complain about being incapable of working with Republicans in Congress when this is the decorum that you use to communicate with their leaders.

I really felt as though Biden was unhinged, as if the Joker had sprayed him in the face with laughing gas. It was so distracting and disturbing. I'm giving him an hour and half of my time and he's laughing his butt off like the issues we're facing are a big joke.

I understand we live in a hyper-partisan time in American history, but do Democrats seriously believe Joe Biden has the demeanor to be President of the United States?

No the fact that you think laughing and smirking is more important than the actual content of the debate is what wrong with politics. How do you react when you hear bullshit?

 

[BigJonsson]

Biden's smiling and laughing is amazing, Ryan looks nervous and intimidated when Biden calls him out on BS

 

[Open Source]

Er, this is totally false. The US government ran surpluses in the late 90s, to disastrous effect (recession in the early 2000s and set the table for the recent depression). There is no such thing as tax payments being "redirected," because payments, once collected by any arm of the government, represent the destruction of money. What you mean to say is that payroll taxes were included in the calculation of government net spending. As they should be. The divisions between different types of tax collection (and spending) are totally artificial and have no real world significance.



We don't pay for anything. The government gives us money. It then taxes it back.

Nope. This presumes that the government is not the source of money. It is.

The total (public + private) us debt went up every year in the 90s. This is an easily verified fact. Public went down at some point, only because by law any surplus in social security receipts must be applied to paying the public debt. That transfer reduced the public debt and increased the private debt by the same amount.

Government is the source of money. It is not the source of wealth. Money is just a tool that like everything else in the world only has whatever value the people exchanging it agree on. The deficit is a money deficit, but that deficit represents wealth - the wealth that those who use dollars as a medium of trade assign to it. When government puts more dollars into circulation, and the nation's wealth has not increased proportionately, the value of the dollar will drop, because dollars are now easier to get than wealth.

 

[pigeon]

I understand we live in a hyper-partisan time in American history, but do Democrats seriously believe Joe Biden has the demeanor to be President of the United States?

Think of it as disincentivizing assassination.

 

[NullPointer]

I have never really disliked the VP before tonight. I've always found him funny and affable, even relatable, but tonight all I could focus on was how rude, undignified, disrespectful and arrogant he was. You cannot complain about being incapable of working with Republicans in Congress when this is the decorum that you use to communicate with their leaders.

I find the continual repetition of bald-faced lies rude, undignified, disrespectful and arrogant. And this from a duo that considers 47% of Americans to be irresponsible, entitled victims, and 30% of Americans to be "takers".

Calling them out on this behavior aggressively, methodically, and loudly is not something I have a problem with.

 

[Darryl]

do Democrats seriously believe Joe Biden has the demeanor to be President of the United States? I have no problem with the President's demeanor, but the man I saw tonight a heartbeat away from the Presidency is wrong.

I don't care about demeanor in a debate at all. I'm glad that he was actually interested in debating, rather than sticking to talking points the entire time. He even looked like he was speaking off-the-cuff quite a bit. Maybe he was rude about it, but I think he's the only one of the two that was actually being somewhat honest about presenting something that would be considered a 'debate'.

 

[Evlar]

As a person who hates "lol," and "lawl" responses with a passion, it pains me to see so many of GAF thinking Biden's demeanor was at all acceptable during this debate. A dark future of internet discourse awaits.

... "lol."

How do you respond when someone spews bullshit to your face?

I mean, for fuck's sake. Ryan tried to defend dismantling Social Security. If he said that to my face I would laugh out of pure shock.

 

[Nert]

I really felt as though Biden was unhinged, as if the Joker had sprayed him in the face with laughing gas. It was so distracting and disturbing. I'm giving him an hour and half of my time and he's laughing his butt off like the issues we're facing are a big joke.

As a person who hates "lol," and "lawl" responses with a passion, it pains me to see so many of GAF thinking Biden's demeanor was at all acceptable during this debate. A dark future of internet discourse awaits.

... "lol."

It might just be an expected outcome from all of the C-SPAN I've watched, but if you ever happen to watch "question time" from the United Kingdom, you wouldn't even be phased by Biden's demeanor. Debates and discussions in other countries can be way more heated and partisan than any of the debates that I've seen in the United States. All that should matter in the end is the content, in my opinion.

 

[Forgotten_Taco]

Think of it as disincentivizing assassination.

Dick "go fuck yourself" Cheney

 

[RDreamer]

I understand we live in a hyper-partisan time in American history, but do Democrats seriously believe Joe Biden has the demeanor to be President of the United States?

Joe's demeanor changes when it needs to. He's sincere when he needs to be, and not when he needs to be. I've seen him say some really heartfelt things before. He shows you what he's really feeling at the time and doesn't hide it.

In this debate he's dealing with a perpetual bullshitter. He's dealing with an immature child that throws around lies and believes he's a numbers wonk, but really he's just a fraud. I'm personally very glad that Joe didn't hold back and showed us what he really thinks of this idiot. That's exactly how you deal with a guy that loves the smell of his own bullshit. You show him you don't buy it, and you think he's ridiculous for trying to sell it.

 

[Tragicomedy]

Weimar is a bit different:

I never knew the entire payment had to be made in gold. Consider me learned.

The problem in a lot of the cases brought up against MMT (The theory EV is touting that states debt doesn't matter in and of itself) is that these countries have debt in foreign currency. This is also the problem going on in Europe right now, and why they're all pretty fucked. The US doesn't have this problem and will never have this problem as long as we're the sole issuer of our currency.

I'm doing some reading into Paul Krugman. Here he makes the argument that deficits do matter, and that holding solely your own currency is not protection from hyperinflation.
Deficits and the Printing Press - Krugman.

Very interesting in light of the previous articles of his that were posted. This is more in line with what I was arguing about the potential for the bond market to dry up, and the fact that we can't just print our way out of the problem.

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

Let's not kid ourselves, you were voting for Romney anyways, so Biden's performance was going to get a negative review regardless.

I'm not decided if I'm voting for Romney or voting for either candidate. Romney still has to seal the deal with me to get me to care enough to go out to vote on election day.

Like I said we live in a hyper partisan time. Nobody can be honest about anything.

This isn't how discourse should be. A VP doesn't conduct himself in a debate like this regardless of whether he's Republican or Democrat. At minimum you should bring respect for the opposition to the table. Am I expecting too much in 2012?

I think Biden made some good points during the debate and even got Ryan on a few issues and vice versa, but the overwhelming thing that I will remember about this debate was the bizarre disrespectful conduct of the VP.

Joe's demeanor changes when it needs to. He's sincere when he needs to be, and not when he needs to be. I've seen him say some really heartfelt things before. He shows you what he's really feeling at the time and doesn't hide it.

In this debate he's dealing with a perpetual bullshitter. He's dealing with an immature child that throws around lies and believes he's a numbers wonk, but really he's just a fraud. I'm personally very glad that Joe didn't hold back and showed us what he really thinks of this idiot. That's exactly how you deal with a guy that loves the smell of his own bullshit. You show him you don't buy it, and you think he's ridiculous for trying to sell it.

All politicians are perpetual bullshitters. Anyone who thinks one side tells the truth and the other lies is full of it themselves. You don't get anywhere in politics without being a perpetual bullshitter. Joe Biden has made a long career out of the game of politics.

Ryan didn't strike me at all as an immature child, robotic maybe but immature? I think it took a lot to sit there and continue on for an hour and half while the VP is acting like he's on drugs laughing hysterically and interrupting everyone. Also and maybe it's just me, but when the VP turns on the "rage" it strikes me as overly dramatic faux-rage. Like you said it changes when he needs it, so it doesn't come across as sincere or heartfelt, it comes across staged.

You may dislike Ryan, but he's not an idiot. If anything he comes across to me as a numbers nerd, not an idiot at all.

"That's exactly how you deal with a guy that loves the smell of his own bullshit. You show him you don't buy it, and you think he's ridiculous for trying to sell it."

That's the part that disturbs me the most. Young people thinking this is normal or acceptable way to debate. If every debate was like this, we would probably eventually stop having debates at all in this country. You have to come to the table with respect even for people that you vehemently disagree with; this applies whether it's Republican/Democrat or a leader of another country.

 

[pigeon]

This isn't how discourse should be. A VP doesn't conduct himself in a debate like this regardless of whether he's Republican or Democrat. At minimum you should bring respect for the opposition to the table. Am I expecting too much in 2012?

I believe in civility.

I also believe in recognizing when you're dealing with somebody who's demonstrated their willingness to take advantage of your civility to manipulate the situation, and reacting appropriately.

 

[RDreamer]

I never knew the entire payment had to be made in gold. Consider me learned.

I'm doing some reading into Paul Krugman. Here he makes the argument that deficits do matter, and that holding solely your own currency is not protection from hyperinflation.
Deficits and the Printing Press - Krugman.

Very interesting in light of the previous articles of his that were posted. This is more in line with what I was arguing about the potential for the bond market to dry up, and the fact that we can't just print our way out of the problem.

The thing is that MMT doesn't say that holding your own currency protects you from hyperinflation. Not at all. They say that debt in and of itself doesn't matter. It's a scoresheet, really. You don't need to get rid of it or anything. What matters is inflation. That's what we should worry about and make fiscal decisions about. They would say that at this time we shouldn't be worried about that so much. Inflation comes when you have too many dollars chasing too few goods. With nearly 8% unemployment that sort of scenario is close to impossible. Demand is low. We have too few dollars chasing too many goods right now. If we had almost no unemployment, then yes you can't just print and spend a ton. That's when you reel it in a bit. Realistically, a government should spend and take in at different rates depending on the economy. Spend more to warm it up, take in more to cool it down, etc.

If you're looking to read up on MMT, I'd recommend New Economic Perspectives. They have some good articles on there sometimes.

I believe in civility.

I also believe in recognizing when you're dealing with somebody who's demonstrated their willingness to take advantage of your civility to manipulate the situation, and reacting appropriately.

Absolutely. Ryan preys on civility in order to push his crap and make it sound reasonable. He also rambles on about unrelated things and doesn't answer the questions if you let him. The times Joe didn't interrupt in order to get a straight answer prove that.

 

[harSon]

Paul Ryan is such an insufferable jackass.

And did CNN fly in Ryan's friends and family for their in-debate polling? Because by the time Ryan uttered a syllable his rating were riding high, and the second Biden took over they'd nose dive and plateau.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

I'm watching the rerun right now. Biden isn't that bad.

He's old and worked up over ryan vagueness. loll.

 

[royalan]

I believe in civility.

I also believe in recognizing when you're dealing with somebody who's demonstrated their willingness to take advantage of your civility to manipulate the situation, and reacting appropriately.

Agreed.

I also agree in bringing respect for your opponent to the table in a debate, but one could argue that Romney and Ryan were the first to break those civilities when they made choice to operate these debates with veiled plans and blatant lies.

You can't debate on equal ground with someone who's employing those sorts of tactics or sticking to the facts even remotely. Open contempt is warranted.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I'm not decided if I'm voting for Romney or voting for either candidate. Romney still has to seal the deal with me to get me to care enough to go out to vote on election day.

Like I said we live in a hyper partisan time. Nobody can be honest about anything.

This isn't how discourse should be. A VP doesn't conduct himself in a debate like this regardless of whether he's Republican or Democrat. At minimum you should bring respect for the opposition to the table. Am I expecting too much in 2012?

I think Biden made some good points during the debate and even got Ryan on a few issues and vice versa, but the overwhelming thing that I will remember about this debate was the bizarre disrespectful conduct of the VP.

Call me partisan but I find the lack of respect Ryan has for public a lot more offensive than bidens smirk. You respect someone who lies to you with a straight face? Ryan thinks so little of you that he expects to get away with bullshit that you search on google in 2 seconds.

 

[Forever]

The media better not spin this into a draw. This was nothing less than a 90 minute massacre.

I think Biden made some good points during the debate and even got Ryan on a few issues and vice versa, but the overwhelming thing that I will remember about this debate was the bizarre disrespectful conduct of the VP.

Frankly it sounds like you're looking for an excuse, any excuse, to support the Republican ticket. Apparently now it's all about being polite, like a perfect inversion of last week.

Biden won on the issues and won hard.

 

[Klocker]

I believe in civility.

I also believe in recognizing when you're dealing with somebody who's demonstrated their willingness to take advantage of your civility to manipulate the situation, and reacting appropriately.

this.

outrage, dismissing lies is warranted and he was more than civilized most of the time

 

[Evlar]

I'm not decided if I'm voting for Romney or voting for either candidate. Romney still has to seal the deal with me to get me to care enough to go out to vote on election day.

Like I said we live in a hyper partisan time. Nobody can be honest about anything.

This isn't how discourse should be. A VP doesn't conduct himself in a debate like this regardless of whether he's Republican or Democrat. At minimum you should bring respect for the opposition to the table. Am I expecting too much in 2012?

I think Biden made some good points during the debate and even got Ryan on a few issues and vice versa, but the overwhelming thing that I will remember about this debate was the bizarre disrespectful conduct of the VP.

Given s choice between incivility and the guy who wants to rip apart Medicare, I'll take incivility.

 

[Angry Fork]

Just finished watching it all. Biden ether'd Ryan but I would agree that the laughing was too much in the first half. I personally found it funny just because everyone was so serious, then the camera shows the 3 of them and Biden is cracking up while the other 2 are deadpan and it just looks so comical, like he doesn't give a shit. His laughing is how everyone in this country should react to Romney/Ryan and Tea Partiers.

But I'll say it was too much just because the rest of the country and these 'precious' independents (idiots) will think he was arrogant. And he was, but that's because he knew he had facts on his side. Americans don't like to be talked down to though they want to think they're clever and may see Biden as an elitist or something.

I'm not decided if I'm voting for Romney or voting for either candidate. Romney still has to seal the deal with me to get me to care enough to go out to vote on election day.

Like I said we live in a hyper partisan time. Nobody can be honest about anything.

This isn't how discourse should be. A VP doesn't conduct himself in a debate like this regardless of whether he's Republican or Democrat. At minimum you should bring respect for the opposition to the table. Am I expecting too much in 2012?

I think Biden made some good points during the debate and even got Ryan on a few issues and vice versa, but the overwhelming thing that I will remember about this debate was the bizarre disrespectful conduct of the VP.

Ryan doesn't deserve respect, that's the point. He is almost on the same level as Rick Santorum and he deserves to be kicked out of the country.

 

[pakkit]

Agreed.

I also agree in bringing respect for your opponent to the table in a debate, but one could argue that Romney and Ryan were the first to break those civilities when they made choice to operate these debates with veiled plans and blatant lies.

You can't debate on equal ground with someone who's employing those sorts of tactics or sticking to the facts even remotely. Open contempt is warranted.

Classic debate is rooted in deceit. Logical fallacies are manipulative, that's why they're used time and time again. It's hard to get the swing voters on your side with obvious animosity. I think Ryan toed the line and let Biden sink himself.