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[Amir0x]

As for the Afghanistan argument, both men bent the facts. I posted my reply to that a few pages back, as someone who has done a tour over there. Each was arguing a different point, both incorrectly.

Just want to start and say you have my unending respect for your tour of duty. I was thinking of going TDY to Afghanistan before the war ends, but haven't decided if I can do it immediately after getting married. It's going to be threading the needle.

Everyone bent 'facts', but I'd say Ryan is the only one who actually straight out lied or continually showed he did not know at all what he was talking about. That is a distinct difference from what I stand...

You have to realize that, fair or not, plenty of voters don't really care about cold, hard facts. They are more concerned with demeanor, likability, and confidence. Bush didn't beat Kerry because he spent the time locking down his research, numbers, and figures.

This is true, and as I said in the thread, I do criticize Biden for his continuous laughing schtick. He was not looking serious when he did that.

You also cannot overlook the one good point that Ryan was attempting to make time and time again, which is that the current administration has had four years in office to fix things and they haven't succeeded by any meaningful metric. Our economy is still bad. Unemployment is still high. We've run the highest deficits in our nation's history these past few years, contributing to a looming debt crises. Etc., etc., etc. Given his complete lack of specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if Ryan was coached to just keep the topic on how bad things currently are.

But it's not really a good point. What is a meaningful metric?

Obama inherited the worst economic downturn since the depression. Nobody in the UNIVERSE could have completely turned things around in 4 years. And yet, finally, we're at 7.8%, lower than when Obama came into office. And it's only going to get lower, as all economic indicators suggest. Housing is finally showing signs of recovery. Manufacturing is showing signs of recovery for the first time in over 13 years. The auto industry was saved, salvaging millions of American jobs. The deficit is simply a result of less revenue because of the economic downturn; Obama has NOT been some spending crazy despite what you may have heard:

And just a few days ago, we had a huge drop in jobless claims, confirming the trajectory of the economy once again.

I do not know why this fantasy that somehow the economy is still in the gutter has propagated, but it's not true. We are not where we should be, but Obama stopped the bleeding, turned the car around and began us on the long road to recovery. And you'd be right if you said it's not the type of recovery we should be having, but that's because Republicans have blocked every job growing piece of legislation for years now. And the day Obama stepped into office, it was STOPPING his presidency that was a priority, not the American people. IS that the sort of thing you want to encourage in elected officials? Death to the president, country be damned?

I can think of three separate elections in my lifetime that were won based solely on how crappy the economy was around November time frame. Romney and Ryan are banking on that, perhaps idealistically.

Of course. But there is more to any election than JUST economy, and Obama is no slouch in those areas either.

 

[B-Dubs]

Is that AP poll real? People are saying they can't find the source for it.

All I can find are people tweeting about it, can't find the AP posting it or anything.

 

[speculawyer]

Ah, my bad. I mistakenly read "dense" where you wrote "sense." Long day.

As for the Afghanistan argument, both men bent the facts. I posted my reply to that a few pages back, as someone who has done a tour over there. Each was arguing a different point, both incorrectly.

You have to realize that, fair or not, plenty of voters don't really care about cold, hard facts. They are more concerned with demeanor, likability, and confidence. Bush didn't beat Kerry because he spent the time locking down his research, numbers, and figures.

You also cannot overlook the one good point that Ryan was attempting to make time and time again, which is that the current administration has had four years in office to fix things and they haven't succeeded by any meaningful metric. Our economy is still bad. Unemployment is still high. We've run the highest deficits in our nation's history these past few years, contributing to a looming debt crises. Etc., etc., etc. Given his complete lack of specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if Ryan was coached to just keep the topic on how bad things currently are.

I can think of three separate elections in my lifetime that were won based solely on how crappy the economy was around November time frame. Romney and Ryan are banking on that, perhaps idealistically.

I don't doubt your statements on the war specifics at all. But at this point, the American people just don't care about Afghanistan at all. It is time to get out ASAP. I think Ryan made a big mistake by trying to defend that war.


Regarding the economy . . . the stock market has doubled since the low. Yeah, unemployment is still high but it is a world-wide issue. I find it quite hypocritical that the people who say the government should do nothing think they can get into power and do nothing better. Wat? Yeah.

 

[BertramCooper]

Next week's debate is a town hall, right?

That alone gives Obama a pretty big edge, I'd think.

 

[Canuck76]

This should show people both sides aren't the same. One side will admit when their guy lost. The other side will deny it even when he was clearly beaten within an inch of his political life.

Hahaha come on man lets generalize a little more.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Talking about the vp debate

Take the Democrat/GOP split on GAF into account (and discount all non-americans), and I'm pretty sure it'll be representative of the general public's reaction in regards to this VP debate.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Apparently the AP poll is an online one (and thus unscientific), not confirmed yet

 

[Mackenzie 92]

Biden crushed him, wasn't even close. Doesn't seem like very many people are talking about it though, my facebook and twitter are both clear of anything political tonight. Not even the usual dumb shit cartoons. Then again, maybe that is a victory in itself getting them to shut up.

Apparently the AP poll is an online one (and thus unscientific), not confirmed yet

Probably polled xbox live, aol and yahoo and combined the results.

 

[gamergirly]

381 people with a heavy republican lean?

Seriously, fuck CNN. What piss-poor bullshit is this? This would get someone fired if it was an internal polling.


Also, I cannot find the AP poll anywhere and neither can twitter.

LOL! Most hilarious thing I've heard all night. Was laughing by the 2nd sentence

 

[kaching]

You also cannot overlook the one good point that Ryan was attempting to make time and time again

It's only a "good point" inasmuch as Romney/Ryan can convincingly prove we would be in a significantly better place if they had been in charge the past four years. Which, they can't.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49327648

Who do you think won the vice presidential debate?
Paul Ryan
43%
Joe Biden
53%
Neither
4%

Also an online poll.

EDIT: Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Biden got this. Especially if you just look at the undecided voters.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Take the Democrat/GOP split on GAF into account (and discount all non-americans), and I'm pretty sure it'll be representative of the general public's reaction in regards to this VP debate.

I don't think so

Too much hyperbole and people are forgetting how un-presidential Biden looked with his laughing and interrupting

I think Biden had the edge but the gap isn't as wide as Gaf would like it

 

[Particle Physicist]

Apparently the AP poll is an online one (and thus unscientific), not confirmed yet

Do you have a non-twitter link to any of this?

 

[teh_pwn]

A unskewed polls of the puppies and sunshine poll showed Paul up by 47 points. Time to wrap it up boys, and not with condoms because they will soon be banned.

 

[pigeon]

Could NullPointer or pigeon summarize the polls thus far for me?

CBS poll: 50-31, Biden, undecided voters.
CNN poll: 48-44, Ryan, debate watchers.

That's really mostly it for reasonably reliable polls. There's a HuffPo poll showing Biden with a big advantage after the first hour (that did, reasonably, show Romney with a similar advantage after the first hour last week, so it's not total BS at least). There's a CNBC online poll that Ryan is winning, but it's on their website, so frankly I don't give it any credence. There's an AP poll showing Ryan winning, except nobody can actually find it or prove it exists, and I looked hard!

If the AP poll turns out to be real, then the polls shake out at about a tie.

 

[RDreamer]

Hahaha come on man lets generalize a little more.

Most liberals will happily throw their own guy under the bus and cower like idiots. Conservatives tend to try and prop their guy up with whatever they can find. Look at the reactions of Fox News today and MSNBC last week.

 

[Sirpopopop]

You also cannot overlook the one good point that Ryan was attempting to make time and time again, which is that the current administration has had four years in office to fix things and they haven't succeeded by any meaningful metric. Our economy is still bad. Unemployment is still high. We've run the highest deficits in our nation's history these past few years, contributing to a looming debt crises. Etc., etc., etc. Given his complete lack of specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if Ryan was coached to just keep the topic on how bad things currently are.

1. The UR is going down. There is no denying that. Is it still high - yes. Yet, ask yourself this: What is causing this high UR? One major answer to that is the loss of government jobs. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/category/floyd-norris/

How does Romney-Ryan plan to deal with that issue? Educate me please. What? The 12 million number. That's what would happen if you do essentially nothing.

2. Deficits - Every President spends more than the President before him. However, Obama's rate of growth in terms of deficits has been far slower than the Presidents before him. http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...isenhower-would-you-believe-its-barack-obama/

It is a misleading statistic that isn't placed in proper context.

3. Debt crisis? Pure malarkey. Plain and simple. It can be solved by printing money if one wanted to solve it through that method. As long as we can pay employees, and pay the "bills" when they come due without massive inflation we are in good shape. So far so good. Worrying about the debt is something that you can deal with once the economy recovers.

 

[Owzers]

Best advice Obama can get from this debate:

When Romney tells a heartfelt story, do what Biden did, tell him his policy doesn't that same sentiment.

 

[ISOM]

Most liberals will happily throw their own guy under the bus and cower like idiots. Conservatives tend to try and prop their guy up with whatever they can find. Look at the reactions of Fox News today and MSNBC last week.

This is true I don't think anyone can discount that especially after what happened last week.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

CBS poll: 50-31, Biden, undecided voters.
CNN poll: 48-44, Ryan, debate watchers.

That's really mostly it for reasonably reliable polls. There's a HuffPo poll showing Biden with a big advantage after the first hour (that did, reasonably, show Romney with a similar advantage after the first hour last week, so it's not total BS at least). There's a CNBC online poll that Ryan is winning, but it's on their website, so frankly I don't give it any credence. There's an AP poll showing Ryan winning, except nobody can actually find it or prove it exists, and I looked hard!

If the AP poll turns out to be real, then the polls shake out at about a tie.

Also worth pointing out that the CNN poll had a ridiculously small sample, that leaned significantly right.

 

[Black Mamba]

CBS poll: 50-31, Biden, undecided voters.
CNN poll: 48-44, Ryan, debate watchers.

That's really mostly it for reasonably reliable polls. There's a HuffPo poll showing Biden with a big advantage after the first hour (that did, reasonably, show Romney with a similar advantage after the first hour last week, so it's not total BS at least). There's a CNBC online poll that Ryan is winning, but it's on their website, so frankly I don't give it any credence. There's an AP poll showing Ryan winning, except nobody can actually find it or prove it exists, and I looked hard!

If the AP poll turns out to be real, then the polls shake out at about a tie.

AP poll is a fake. Online polls are never worth discussing. They are unscientific.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

You have to realize that, fair or not, plenty of voters don't really care about cold, hard facts. They are more concerned with demeanor, likability, and confidence. Bush didn't beat Kerry because he spent the time locking down his research, numbers, and figures.

You also cannot overlook the one good point that Ryan was attempting to make time and time again, which is that the current administration has had four years in office to fix things and they haven't succeeded by any meaningful metric. Our economy is still bad. Unemployment is still high. We've run the highest deficits in our nation's history these past few years, contributing to a looming debt crises. Etc., etc., etc. Given his complete lack of specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if Ryan was coached to just keep the topic on how bad things currently are.

I can think of three separate elections in my lifetime that were won based solely on how crappy the economy was around November time frame. Romney and Ryan are banking on that, perhaps idealistically.

While I agree that Obama should've done a lot more. Saying they haven't succeeded by any meaningful metric is absolute BS considering where things were headed.

Ryan openly admitted there wasn't a specific plan him and Romney came up with and don't plan on coming up with one until later.

As one commentator pointed out, Biden stuck up for and defended Middle Class America. Ryan defended Romney. In terms of "who won", as another poster pointed out given how Romney debated last week and was declared the winner then this debate would be a slaughter.

 

[Canuck76]

Most liberals will happily throw their own guy under the bus and cower like idiots. Conservatives tend to try and prop their guy up with whatever they can find. Look at the reactions of Fox News today and MSNBC last week.

Yes sir, all of my views are fox news and all your views are MSNBC.

Come on man, people are more complicated than that.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Yes sir, all of my views are fox news and all your views are MSNBC.

Come on man, people are more complicated than that.

he's, uh, not talking about your view

 

[B-Dubs]

Oh btw that AP poll does not exist. They post all their stuff on their Twitter account when it hits their site and there is nothing there about a poll.

 

[RDreamer]

Yes sir, all of my views are fox news and all your views are MSNBC.

Come on man, people are more complicated than that.

If you don't see it, I just don't know what to say. I realize it's not with everyone, but I think it's something pretty true in a general sense. I'm not talking about my view and your view here. Just in general liberals will throw their guy under the bus if he does a bad job and run away. Conservatives will defend their side pretty willingly. In general. Yes this doesn't stand for everyone, obviously.

 

[diehard]

3. Debt crisis? Pure malarkey. Plain and simple. It can be solved by printing money if one wanted to solve it through that method. As long as we can pay employees, and pay the "bills" when they come due without massive inflation we are in good shape. So far so good. Worrying about the debt is something that you can deal with once the economy recovers.

what..

the hell?

 

[Emerson]

I would really love to be in the room with Obama watching this debate tonight.

Do you guys think he's "professional" about it? I'd love to imagine that he's watching this with a giant smile on his face, slapping the table and laughing his ass off as Biden tears into Ryan.

Similarly, you know every one of these guys is thinking "you motherfucker..." the whole time while he's listening to the opponent with a fake smile on.

 

[Evlar]

Oh btw that AP poll does not exist. They post all their stuff on their Twitter account when it hits their site and there is nothing there about a poll.

I wanna know where PD found that shit.

 

[Owzers]

Ryan's plan on Syria:

Go back in time to give arms to.....whomever wants them.

 

[LordCanti]

Best advice Obama can get from this debate:

When Romney tells a heartfelt story, do what Biden did, tell him his policy doesn't that same sentiment.

Biden was already over his attack dog quota for the night (I say this as a fan) but I'd have liked it if he had dug deeper into Ryan's whole "my family benefited greatly from government programs" line. I'd love to know how he reconciles his budget policies with his family history. "I got mine, now fuck the rest of you"?

 

[GillianSeed79]

If you really think this was even in the same galaxy as each other, I guess I don't know what else to say.

That said, I of course agree with you that Vice Presidential debates mean shit and it is up to Obama to do his job on Tuesday. But, Biden stopped the bleeding and provided a platform to counter punch the laundry list of indisputable lies Romney bled from his ass last Wednesday.

This is true. Yes, Biden gave Ryan a drubbing, but no one really cares about the VP debate. Yeah, as a liberal, it was fucking awesome to watch him absolutely destroy Ryan. But, as a liberal, I'm just worried that the first impression is the only thing that's going to matter. Most of the time debates don't matter, but Romney's peformance last week actually got him poll points. Bush got destroyed by Kerry in their first debate, but you didn't see the polls move like it did with Romney.

Let's be honest. Most people already know who they are going to vote for. It's the annoying undecided voters who only pay attention the last four weeks that can swing an election. I'm just curious if they actually tuned in tonight or if they will the next two debates.

Whatever the case is, Biden was a regular on Bill Maherer's Real Time. That's debate prep. I felt like I was watching an episode of real time tonight. Bams needs Bill and not John Kerry to prepare for the next debate.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Just had to post this from the Poli-GAF thread:

SMH

lol

 

[eBay Huckster]

I wanna know where PD found that shit.

Someone posted it in the PoliGAF thread and he ran with it

 

[B-Dubs]

I wanna know where PD found that shit.

Some ass on Twitter posted about one and it exploded from there. There is currently no evidence it exists.

 

[RDreamer]

what..

the hell?

He's exactly correct.

 

[gamergirly]

NBC poll:

http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_new...fluence-who-you-will-support-in-the-election?

Did the vice presidential debate do anything to influence who you will support in the election?


Results with 160 short comments
Total of 27,206 votes - click on the "Display Comments" bar below to sort comments

35.8%
Yes. It made me more likely to vote for the Romney-Ryan ticket.
9,727 votes

47.9%
Yes. It made me more likely to vote for the Obama-Biden ticket.
13,020 votes

16.4%
No, I feel the same way I did before the debate.
4,459 votes

 

[Black Mamba]

NBC poll:

http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_new...fluence-who-you-will-support-in-the-election?

Did the vice presidential debate do anything to influence who you will support in the election?


Results with 160 short comments
Total of 27,206 votes - click on the "Display Comments" bar below to sort comments

35.8%
Yes. It made me more likely to vote for the Romney-Ryan ticket.
9,727 votes

47.9%
Yes. It made me more likely to vote for the Obama-Biden ticket.
13,020 votes

16.4%
No, I feel the same way I did before the debate.
4,459 votes

Didn't expect numbers like this, wow. Undecideds or general?

edit: ONLINE POLL IGNORE IT

 

[metalslimer]

Do people really take online polls seriously?

 

[Baconsammy]

You also cannot overlook the one good point that Ryan was attempting to make time and time again, which is that the current administration has had four years in office to fix things and they haven't succeeded by any meaningful metric.

And no one can overlook the staggering lack of answers whenever anyone asks Ryan or Romney for specifics on how they will do things differently. "We'll do it better." isnt going to win an election. Tonight shone a bright light on the fact that Romney/Ryan speak in platitudes, not facts. It was embarrassing watching Ryan constantly dance around the fact that he had no specifics. Romney/Ryan when pressed on what they'll cut have said one thing - PBS. PBS accounts for next to nothing in the budget. This isn't new news, they've been doing this dodge for months. But tonight the country was watching and Ryan looked like a fool.

 

[Evlar]

Some ass on Twitter posted about one and it exploded from there. There is currently no evidence it exists.

Everything about Twitter makes me yell at clouds.

 

[FLEABttn]

Yeah, opt-in online polls are about as useful as a cock-flavored lollipop.

 

[Open Source]

I don't doubt your statements on the war specifics at all. But at this point, the American people just don't care about Afghanistan at all. It is time to get out ASAP. I think Ryan made a big mistake by trying to defend that war

The war that Obama called the right war as a candidate in 2008? (He was right in the sense that Taliban victory would be harmful to US security, but wrong in the implication that it was winnable the same way Iraq (eventually) was.

Ryan only said that we should get out according to schedule, but not telegraph our intentions to the enemy and do it the way that preserves as much of the gains made as possible. This is a fine idea, but impractical because we will lose it all.

In reality, Afghanistan will fall apart not long after we leave, but there's no help for it. The people are backward and split into factions, the pols are corrupt and self-serving, and the Taliban are fanatical, formidable, determined, and backed up by Pakistan.

Afghan soldiers cannot replace marines. This is a fantasy. The afghan army will melt away with a whimper once we leave. Our training and arms will end up benefiting the Taliban almost as much as the national forces.

The real question is, what are the consequences for strategic defeat?

 

[strobogo]

You know what I find really weird that never gets mentioned in the debate (not the specific debates)? That the original set of bail outs were under Bush. Neither side ever mentions this. The Dems take credit for all of the bail outs, and the Republicans blame the Dems for all of them. But Republicans were the ones responsible for that first one. I don't know why they refuse to take any credit for it, or why the Dems take full credit for it. Or why no one brings this up.

 

[Tragicomedy]

Just want to start and say you have my unending respect for your tour of duty. I was thinking of going TDY to Afghanistan before the war ends, but haven't decided if I can do it immediately after getting married. It's going to be threading the needle.

My advice: don't. I've been to both Iraq and there, and would go back to Iraq over Afghanistan in a heartbeat. It didn't help that my son was four months old when I left, but in general it's a very, very bad place to be.

Everyone bent 'facts', but I'd say Ryan is the only one who actually straight out lied or continually showed he did not know at all what he was talking about. That is a distinct difference from what I stand...

To paraphrase a Facebook post from an hour ago: "I don't blame Ryan for his lack of specifics in tonight's debate. The Romney campaign had just finished re-writing them 30 minutes before it began."

This is true, and as I said in the thread, I do criticize Biden for his continuous laughing schtick. He was not looking serious when he did that.

He can pull it off because he's Biden and at this point it's kind of expected of him. My wife (who is well-read and socially concerned but about as disinterested in politics as one can be) said earlier today she was looking forward to Biden slapping Ryan around some. That's his modus operandi. I don't care for it in debates, but it appeals to some folks.

Obama inherited the worst economic downturn since the depression. Nobody in the UNIVERSE could have completely turned things around in 4 years. And yet, finally, we're at 7.8%, lower than when Obama came into office. And it's only going to get lower, as all economic indicators suggest. Housing is finally showing signs of recovery]. Manufacturing is showing signs of recovery for the first time in over 13 years. The auto industry was saved, salvaging millions of American jobs. The deficit is simply a result of less revenue because of the economic downturn; Obama has NOT been some spending crazy despite what you may have heard.

I wasn't making the case that we're doomed. I was saying that the Romney/Ryan ticket is running on that outlook. It resonates very well with lots of people. Things are certainly still worse than they were in mid-2008. From a personal standpoint, I have yet to see any reasonable economic projections or realistic budgets from either side of the aisle. I'm no more a fan of another round of quantitative easing than I am of budgets that magically will earn bipartisan support to identify ways of closing trillion dollar gaps.

 

[tj hazuki]

SPECIAL NOTE OF CAUTION #2: The sample of debate-watchers in this poll were 31% Democratic and 33% Republican. That indicates that the sample of debate watchers is about eight points more Republican than an average CNN poll of all Americans, so the respondents were more Republican than the general public.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/12/1143451/-CNN-Snap-Poll-Admits-Oversampling-Republicans

 

[Canuck76]

You know what I find really weird that never gets mentioned in the debate (not the specific debates)? That the original set of bail outs were under Bush. Neither side ever mentions this. The Dems take credit for all of the bail outs, and the Republicans blame the Dems for all of them. But Republicans were the ones responsible for that first one. I don't know why they refuse to take any credit for it, or why the Dems take full credit for it. Or why no one brings this up.

Number 1 rule for conservatives for the past 8 years.

Don't bring up Bush under any circumstances. Ever.

Closest thing to political suicide.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Yeah, opt-in online polls are about as useful as a cock-flavored lollipop.

Haha I'm sure a cock flavored lollipop is useful for some

 

[gamergirly]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/vide...alysis-reaction-brazile-dowd-wallace-17459507

ABC advisers think that Biden won the debate

 

[Sirpopopop]

what..

the hell?

Care to back up your statement, and avoid stupid hyperbole.