I don't have to "magically" prove anything, you simply need to abandon this absurd notion that punching someone who punched you necessarily meets every legal requirement for responding proportionally.
Video shows FSU QB throwing a punch at a woman at a bar
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I don't have to "magically" prove anything, you simply need to abandon this absurd notion that punching someone who punched you necessarily meets every legal requirement for responding proportionally.
Cloud Strife
Member
This.
Apparently we can also proportion the level of force required when someone hits us in the face in any situation and respond in kind.
Lol this is getting ridiculous.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
So what is a reasonable response to receiving an ineffective blow in a street fight? A glove slap? He jabbed her. He's a borderline professional athlete, if he wanted to he could have taken her head clean off.
Big Baybee
Member
Isn't she a violent person? Don't get me wrong, what the poster you're responding to said is fucked up, but this response coupled with you wondering why the woman should be charged aren't matching up.
No, she's shit too. But getting punched by a drunk girl isn't a justification for a college football player to retaliate. The appropriate thing to have done was back off and let the bouncers deal with it. One shitty act doesn't justify another.
When did I argue that? I'm talking about this specific punch, in this specific scenario.
You're right, the alcohol part is inconsequential to whether this would be justified or not. I still don't think that her having her hand raised like that, hovering in place, warrants an immediate restraint of her fist and him pushing her off to the guy. I would be a bit more forgiving if she had no justification for being peeved, but that guy seemed to really force himself into that space. I keep rewatching the video and he really forces himself to the point of forcing the other girl standing to the left out awkwardly.
I see the video and I see the guy awkwardly forcing himself in, peeving the girl to raise her fist, pushing the QB to restrain her, which prompted the punch. I just don't see that raising of the fist as grounds enough to restrain her like he did. This isn't even getting to the level of force applied by the QB punch.
I don't think people realize how strong Div 1 athletes are.
There are quite literally an infinite number of morally and legally acceptable responses available to him, but hitting her with his fist in the face was not one of them.
Icewear Vezzo
Banned
So I'm the "very ignorant and violent" person but not the woman who assaulted me?
Ridiculous double standard but whatever, don't care about your opinion.
Firelord Chargrilled
Banned
And what would they be ? Can't wait to hear this
You're going to type this in good faith and accuse others of logical fallacies?
I'd say that punch was proportional to her punch and kneeing of his groin.
You're not trying to reference Newton's Law are you? The one that says for every action there is an equal, and opposite reaction?
Jawbreaker
Member
The point of my post was to illustrate that even in confrontations at a bar where a person tries to physically assault you with moderate force, there are measures that can be taken to solve the situation without resorting to an all-out brawl. The scenario in the video is a much milder case where the use of force to the extent of what the man did is uncalled for and entirely disproportionate. I would have been justified in using equal force in my case, yes—but my foreknowledge deterred me from doing so especially knowing that a bouncer could better handle the situation. I reacted in a manner I felt would be proportionate given his mental health issues.
With the woman at the bar (besides not brushing/pushing against her or putting my hands on her), I would have simply told the bouncer or moved to another spot. If she threw that weak knee/punch at me, I would have told a bouncer and if I couldn't, I would have restrained her AFTER she did these things, not before. I could have told her to move, fuck off, whatever; but I wouldn't have thrown a strong punch to her face.
Velcro Fly
Member
Charge them both honestly. You can't just go around throwing punches at people in bars. This could have honestly been way worse. Dude shouldn't have hit her at all but you need to learn some fucking restraint. If you don't charge her you basically endorse that her behavior is okay and it might happen again. It doesn't excuse what he did at all but she should be held accountable as well.
Also it's really clear from the video that she barely gets anything behind that punch and he almost knocks her out of the chair. It's pretty obvious his response was overkill. Can I quantify that? Well not really. But he barely even flinched when she hit him. He leaned his head back slightly to avoid it and then almost knocked her out of the chair. It's as clear as day honestly.
Also it's really clear from the video that she barely gets anything behind that punch and he almost knocks her out of the chair. It's pretty obvious his response was overkill. Can I quantify that? Well not really. But he barely even flinched when she hit him. He leaned his head back slightly to avoid it and then almost knocked her out of the chair. It's as clear as day honestly.
...because?
Icewear Vezzo
Banned
You don't even attempt to take in account natural instinct, which is to retaliate especially depending on someone's background and whatnot.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
Nailed it.
Yeah, and you can just tell he really thought really long and hard on how to respond before hitting her. I mean, one whole half-second passed before he punched her! It was clearly premeditated savagery.
I think this would be relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat
Florida's stand your ground laws might be the only thing that can help him. Given that he can be seen as an aggressor as well though, particularly when he grabs her prior to any punches actually being thrown, I think he is screwed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat
Florida's stand your ground laws might be the only thing that can help him. Given that he can be seen as an aggressor as well though, particularly when he grabs her prior to any punches actually being thrown, I think he is screwed.
Vincent Alexander
Member
So in the end, we all at least agree they're both assholes, right?
Firelord Chargrilled
Banned
That video is so bad. I get that she's trying to throw a punch, but she's drunk and she's a girl who obviously doesn't know the first thing about being physical. Essentially what happens is she presses her hand against his face, I've "punched" myself harder adjusting my glasses. Ridiculous reaction.
How about walking away?
How about walking away?
He could move, he could attempt to continue restraining her as he was or restrain her some other way, he could push her in any number of different way, etc.
Yes? Are you going to explain why I can't?
And I would say you're obviously wrong.
Because hitting her in the face is not a reasonable or proportional response.
First an irrelevant point and then a strawman.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Hahaha, daaamn, that was a straight punch to the face. So she tried to pUnch him but he blocks and then clocks her in the face, right? Yep. No sympathy for her.
PopcornMegaphone
Banned
I have trouble believing this football player felt this drunk idiot was a significant threat. That punch did not look like self defense.
You're the one that keeps moving goal posts. The guy responded in the moment to an immediate threat. Should he have just walked away? Yes. No one is advocating he should have hit the woman. That doesn't mean he wasn't justified in doing so. He was, and the law is on his side.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
Looking at the events he is the one that instigated the physical part of the confrontation.
Equal doesn't mean what you think it does here.
No it isn't. Provocation doesn't excuse assault.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Big Baybee
Member
He grabs her after threatened. Should he have just let her hit him? And when he lets her go she immediately attacks him.
And you would be wrong to assume that. Look at that "punch". She's gonna do about as much damage as a 5 year old with those.
Not provocation. Assault. She assaulted him. This is very clear in the video.
I don't think so. I've never known a person who was truly unfamiliar with physical violence to start immediately punching and kicking groins.
Look at her body language. She's ready to get physical the second he bumped into her.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Icewear Vezzo
Banned
Pretty infuriating to see people talk down on others as if they're superior over cultural differences.
In my culture from a very young age you are taught to fight back if assaulted no matter the circumstances. Parents and peers both preached this. In my culture it's okay to physically discipline your child. These things are okay where I was raised, so why does someone raised in a nice neighborhood with parents who were at work all the time so never disciplines them gets the right to talk down on people who were raised and taught differently. It's such a superiority complex in these people's minds that it angers me.
I could show all my friends and strangers the GIFS in OP and they would all commend the guy for striking her. But people from a different angle of life will call him a thug, violent, and uncivilized and talk down as if they don't have cultural faults.
In my culture from a very young age you are taught to fight back if assaulted no matter the circumstances. Parents and peers both preached this. In my culture it's okay to physically discipline your child. These things are okay where I was raised, so why does someone raised in a nice neighborhood with parents who were at work all the time so never disciplines them gets the right to talk down on people who were raised and taught differently. It's such a superiority complex in these people's minds that it angers me.
I could show all my friends and strangers the GIFS in OP and they would all commend the guy for striking her. But people from a different angle of life will call him a thug, violent, and uncivilized and talk down as if they don't have cultural faults.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Preach!
Chick needed a to get checked.
Im hoping this guys lawyer is good enough to get him off and get the chick tried.
She started she threw a punch at him, he threw one back.
Do hit people if you are ready to get hit.
0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55
Banned
Natural instinct, bro
Assault also does not excuse assault, except in the case of self defense which requires a reasonable and proportional response.
The law is very clearly not on his side.
Messofanego
Banned
Jimbo Fisher, now I'm hungry.
Cloud Strife
Member
Exactly. The heat of the moment.
I've been suckered by someone at a club once and felt furious. Punched the guy back and it was broken up. But that feeling is almost uncontrollable when it happens to you under varying circumstances. I really wish people could take a punch and walk away but it doesn't happen every time.
I'm not saying it's correct or "proportional", but you can't expect someone to act accordingly in these situations. Clearly, this can lead to potentially horrible outcomes for everyone involved but don't expect the rational response and blame one party for not doing the "right thing".
You sure about that? He grabbed her before she threw that punch.
But it is.
Florida state law defines self defense pertinent to this context as the use of force under a reasonable belief that it is necessary to defend against an imminent threat.
She raised her fist. How is that not an imminent threat?
The last two sentences are definitely key then. FSU is still probably justified for booting him, but reading that I don't think there should be any criminal charges.
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