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[Sanky Panky]

This is NOT a thread about the feminist movement, as there have quite a few of those in the past. This thread is to specifically address a phenomenon that most of us are oblivious to, or worse, accept as a part of life. This thread is about violence against women, objectifying women, the effects of advertising in our society, your own personal experiences, or whatever else you guys want to discuss.

******************
I am updating the OP with this, because like it goes in the real world, the issues of violence against women are sidestepped or ignored. This is also for the "buuh buh men are subjected to violence too" crowd. Let's throw in some facts, that are not from any one source:

http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf

FACTS
- One in every four women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime.1
- 85% of domestic violence victims are women.3
- Historically, females have been most often victimized by someone they knew.4
- Most cases of domestic violence are never reported to the police.
- Almost one-third of female homicide victims that are reported in police records are killed by an intimate partner.14
- In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder.12
- One in 6 women and 1 in 33 men have experienced an attempted or completed rape.10
- 1 in 12 women and 1 in 45 men have been stalked in their lifetime.13 81% of women stalked by a current or former intimate partner are also physically assaulted by that partner; 31% are also sexually assaulted by that partner.13
- Only approximately one-quarter (25%) of all physical assaults, one-fifth (20%) of all rapes, and one-half (50%) of all stalkings perpetuated against females by intimate partners are reported to the police.
- Approximately 20% of the 1.5 million people who experience intimate partner violence annually obtain civil protection orders.1
- Approximately one-half of the orders obtained by women against intimate partners who physically assaulted them were violated.1 More than two-thirds of the restraining orders against intimate partners who raped or stalked the victim were violated.

Legal protection for women varies by state, and it is lackluster. Many of the violence goes unreported because of the chronic message bombarded onto us that women are sub-human and objects of male desire. Women grow up with this mentallity, and those with low self-esteem don't dare to fight back or report the abuse.

*****************

I have been exposed to a lot of cases of violence against women lately, ranging from experiences from friends, news, documentaries, to even my old country’s trend of increased violence against women. Moreover, I have been dating this amazing woman that has exposed me to a lot of the hardships and means through which violence against women is encouraged/enabled.

One documentary (speech in this case) she showed me really opened my eyes to how bad things are:

Killing us Softly – by Jean Kilbourne http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rvnO3r0smY

It’s about how women are portrayed in the media. It’s a must watch if you want to be informed.

My girlfriend, who will remain anonymous, wrote this up, and I want to share it with you guys. I separated the paragraphs into sections, and highlighted some points for easier reading. She starts by saying:

I wanted to bring something to all of your attention, not because I want to spark tempers, or because I want to be controversial, but because of how you, your mother, your sister, or your daughter has been forced to live their lives in this country. I think this issue needs to be discussed…or else it will continue to cycle through all of our lives, destroying us.

Women Blamed for Male Sexual Desire (justifying rape?)

There are many people who oppose the veiling of women in Islam and other religious cultures, as it forces women and men to subscribe to an ideology where women are made directly responsible for controlling rampant male sexual desire. By covering their bodies and suppressing the object of male attraction, women not only maintain societal order (and some would argue protect women from harassment and physical advances) but also effectively kill their own creativity, spirit, intelligence, expression, and voice.

Most of us would say we understand the veil as a religious right that warrants respect; however, I think the majority of us would also say that what it stands for is universally wrong. Women are not and should not have to be in a constant state of hiding as a result of men who are unable to keep their dicks in their pants: adults have the ability to control their desires.

Women’s Role in Society

It is interesting that this idea behind male and female sexuality also serves to keep men in a position of power; they use education, income, and societal favor to their advantage to pursue their goals and live their lives. Women are bound to their homes and their own bodies, expected to find fulfillment in repetitive mindless domestic tasks that limit them to mother, wife, housekeeper, or all three; choice is not something that comes to mind in contemplating the lifestyle of these women, or their physical representations of themselves.

“thank god I live in this country. Things are different here.”

I would like to testify that dangerous threats to women’s rights are just as rampant to women here in the United States (and other over-developed countries) as they are to women under restrictive religious rule in developing countries throughout the world. Advertising and the portrayal of women in the media (as well as severe over-exposure of Americans to advertising campaigns) have raised a society of people who understand women as second class citizens and more potently, as things…objects of sexual desire for male pleasure. The amount of damage this is doing to all of us and our minds and bodies is truly shocking.

Dangerous Trends in Teen Girls

We have an alarmingly high rate of teens and young women (really, women of all ages) who are undergoing breast enhancements. We see it everywhere. We are “used to it”. It is completely normalized in our society. When you really think of how sick it is that we cut open our bodies and stuff plastic bags full of chemicals into our breasts (which is also where we FEED OUR OFFSPRING FROM) it starts to become clear that this normalized behavior makes money for a gargantuan cosmetic industry while simultaneously leading to violence against women, rape, psychological misery, and a general inability for women to reach the status men have.

Did you consider while reading this passage that women’s nipples are one of the most erogenous areas of their bodies? Did you think of how a surgically enhanced woman in most cases loses sensation in the nipples? Can you see that she moved from a living, breathing, human with a way to experience bodily sexual pleasure to a woman whose breasts are now objects for men’s eyes and therefore mere things that now serve to give pleasure to someone else?

Women in Advertising

This is perhaps the hardest part. People do not think they are affected by advertising and mass amounts of images where behaviors are learned to be accepted or rejected. Until we can admit that ads are a part of our culture and as a result a part of us, women will continue to suffer. Where did the desire for large breasts come from? In fact, where did any of it come from? We, as a culture, value women for how they look, not what they do. And mainstream advertising has given us the flawless image of what we are to become in order to be loved, praised, rewarded, and accepted: large breasts, impossibly small waist, ample hips (but not too big), long legs, smaller is better…large eyes, full lips, straight nose, shiny soft hair.

Hope for the Future?

I still have hope that the public can see through insidious advertisements and the selling of images and lifestyles…the dissection and commodification of women’s bodies. I still have hope that people will see the thread between these practices and the hierarchy that has been established as a direct result. I have faith they will see why women STILL do not make the same amount of money for the same title and performance as a male employee: why Ashley Banfield was called a slut on the air and there was absolutely no repercussions for the male perpetrator: why when Imus added the “nappy headed” part to his “nappy-headed hoes” comment on air , he was fired…but not for using hoes, sluts, and other derogatory and degrading slurs aimed at females: why it’s ok to wear “boy-clothes” if you’re a girl, but it’s weird and frowned upon to wear dresses and skirts as a male: why women STILL cannot get access to contraception, reproductive healthcare, and why many don’t have a say in what happens to their own bodies: why even our cultural linguistic pattern indicates feminine beauty as connected to violence ie bombshell and knockout: why everyone and their mother has had or has an eating disorder: why everyone and their mother has been sexually assaulted in some way, by some man: why when I searched for a clip to show you Banfield on youtube, I saw headings like “Ashley Banfield hard nipples”, and “Ashley Banfield leg show” right below clips of her reporting from ground zero as the second set of explosions went off around her during 9/11. How can we not see something wrong with that? How can we ignore how fucking degrading that is?

Something has to be done. We can’t be defensive about our privilege; we have to accept what has happened to all of us and find ways to fix it. Women have to accept that they have perpetuated these practices, ideas, and stereotypes. More importantly, they have to be able to see why they have reinforced sexism or objectified themselves. Men have to try to not feel personally and unfairly attacked just for being a part of the patriarchal system, or even for participating in many of these practices. You yourselves have been participating in this cycle.

Remember our lives and well-being are at stake, and no one seems to care.

I appreciate my gf for writing this up, as one of the solutions is simply more awareness. Violence against women is specially bad because the abuser may even think it's ok to do, and is likely to get away with it.

Has anybody had any experience with violence against women? Have any of you even would admit you have been aggressive towards a woman before?

tl:dr: My girlfriend wrote a piece about violence against women, and there is a great documentary on how the media encourages this bad trend. People need to be informed.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Violence against husbands does exist, too, but men are often too ashamed to talk about it.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I've only been violent with women who were asking for it.









Literally.

 

[Aylinato]

I am rather getting sick of the "justifiable rape" and any alterations of the same common bullshit that I see spreading around. Rape is a terrible thing, and needs to be punished accordingly.

I am also getting pissed off that males keep trying to say we are victimized by the equality of women. Like wtf people equality makes things better!

 

[BobbyRobby]

I am also getting pissed off that males keep trying to say we are victimized by the equality of women. Like wtf people equality makes things better!

if i made a crusade to 'end violence against white people,' i feel that i would be rightly called out for not including everyone.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

What about all the TV shows and cartoons where you see a male and female competing at something and you know the female is going to win just because.

 

[Sanky Panky]

if i made a crusade to 'end violence against white people,' i feel that i would be rightly called out for not including everyone.

You'd be hard-pressed to show how "violence against white people" has been a "thing" since the dawn of civilization, and is still rampant.

 

[Count Dookkake]

if i made a crusade to 'end violence against white people,' i feel that i would be rightly called out for not including everyone.

Depends on where and how you implemented it.

It's not a forgone conclusion.

 

[jay]

if i made a crusade to 'end violence against white people,' i feel that i would be rightly called out for not including everyone.

It's almost as if there is a thing called context.

 

[Cyan]

if i made a crusade to 'end violence against white people,' i feel that i would be rightly called out for not including everyone.

Yes, you probably would be. Can you please explain how or why the same should apply in this case?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

First of all, good on you and your GF for wanting to discuss topics like this. I'm not really sure why this isn't "a thread about the feminist movement," though, considering "rape culture" and whatnot is a pretty common feminist discussion point. I feel like it's going to be difficult to talk about one without talking about the other.

Second of all... while this write-up raises some good points, I feel like this:

Women have to accept that they have perpetuated these practices, ideas, and stereotypes. More importantly, they have to be able to see why they have reinforced sexism or objectified themselves.

...teeters weirdly close to victim blaming. It is never a woman's fault (or man's, or anyone else who happens to be a victim) that they were objectified, leered at, assaulted, or raped.

 

[Seanspeed]

I would like to testify that dangerous threats to women’s rights are just as rampant to women here in the United States (and other over-developed countries) as they are to women under restrictive religious rule in developing countries throughout the world.

Sorry, but thats just not true. Things are FAR worse in certain other countries and areas. Not saying that its not an issue here, but attitudes towards women is far more progressive in the States than it is in Egypt, for instance.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I got blasted at work the other day for getting upset with my male co-workers literally staring at these two girls AND basically making a big deal of it in front of customers. Like I was called "not normal" because I wasn't freaking out over two pretty girls.

All of them did the whole "they dress like that for attention" and the hypocritical Born-Again Christian even pulled that line despite that very day complaining about women in bikinis being on the cover of magazines.

Really upset me. Like, I don't have a problem looking at girls if you find them attractive, I've done it, but they were literally making a noticeable event out of it and it was very uncomfortable because I'm positive they noticed. I probably got more upset than I should've, but it really pissed me off because they were just obnoxious about it.

 

[Sanky Panky]

First of all, good on you and your GF for wanting to discuss topics like this. I'm not really sure why this isn't "a thread about the feminist movement," though, considering "rape culture" and whatnot is a pretty common feminist discussion point. I feel like it's going to be difficult to talk about one without talking about the other.

I wanted to take the politics out of it in order to prevent the usual woman vs men rights discussion. While it does have a place in this thread, I wish the focus can be on how violence against women is subtly/blatantly promoted or tolerated in the world.

Second of all... while this write-up raises some good points, I feel like this:

...teeters weirdly close to victim blaming. It is never a woman's fault (or man's, or anyone else who happens to be a victim) that they were objectified, leered at, assaulted, or raped.

What I take from it is that women are not to blame, but they participate in the objectification by going for the fake breasts, taking sexual pictures of themselves, seeking attention through social media, perpetrating the "bimbo" stereotype, etc. It's not that they are at fault, but they themselves are not aware of the dangers of what they are doing.

 

[BobbyRobby]

You'd be hard-pressed to show how "violence against white people" has been a "thing" since the dawn of civilization, and is still rampant.

no, i'm not sure i would.

i don't believe it is as severe against violence towards other ethnic groups, but it has been a 'thing' since white people existed.

Yes, you probably would be. Can you please explain how or why the same should apply in this case?

i was just responding to the guy who said he gets pissed when people bring up violence against men. i don't think it is a reason to be pissed off. we should be fighting violence against everyone.

 

[Escape Goat]

I've only been violent with women who were asking for it.









Literally.

Go on...

 

[Cyan]

i was just responding to the guy who said he gets pissed when people bring up violence against men. i don't think it is a reason to be pissed off. we should be fighting violence against everyone.

Ok, sure. Though wouldn't you agree that we should probably focus our attention where it's most needed?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

i was just responding to the guy who said he gets pissed when people bring up violence against men. i don't think it is a reason to be pissed off. we should be fighting violence against everyone.

The issue is that citing "violence against men" isn't usually brought up in good faith as a problem that is deserving in attention in addition to the concern of violence against women. Typically, when mentioned, it is used in a dismissive fashion. Meaning, someone will say "why are we focusing on women getting abused when men get the shit beat out of them too?" The aim there is not actually to call attention to another problem while also continuing to focus on the current issue of abuse against women, but to distract from what's being discussed by suggesting that it's not really a unique problem.

 

[BanGy.nz]

Violence against husbands does exist, too, but men are often too ashamed to talk about it.

In a thread about violence against woman the first reply is "but what about men".

 

[Seanspeed]

What I take from it is that women are not to blame, but they participate in the objectification by going for the fake breasts, taking sexual pictures of themselves, seeking attention through social media, perpetrating the "bimbo" stereotype, etc. It's not that they are at fault, but they themselves are not aware of the dangers of what they are doing.

I dont think you realize that this basically is victim blaming. Except that you're also basically calling them stupid on top of that, as if they aren't capable of understanding this issue like men can or something.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

What I take from it is that women are not to blame, but they participate in the objectification by going for the fake breasts, taking sexual pictures of themselves, seeking attention through social media, perpetrating the "bimbo" stereotype, etc. It's not that they are at fault, but they themselves are not aware of the dangers of what they are doing.

Who cares whether or not a woman gets implants? Their body, their rules. Judging or shaming someone for personal choices they make like taking pictures of themselves is part of the problem in the first place. This is still victim blaming.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Ok, sure. Though wouldn't you agree that we should probably focus our attention where it's most needed?

not really. i think we should prevent and punish violence without prejudice. 'where's it's most needed' can change depending on the culture or times. one could argue it's most needed to focus on males in this country.

males are the victim of violent crime more than females. males are encouraged to enlist in the army and go kill other males at a rate far higher than females, and in the past drafted againt their will. males kill themselves at a rate higher much higher than females.

 

[Sanky Panky]

I dont think you realize that this basically is victim blaming. Except that you're also basically calling them stupid on top of that, as if they aren't capable of understanding this issue like men can or something.

Not at all.

It's not that they aren't capable. Because of what they have been bombarded with all their lives (via the media, advertisements, etc), they feel the pressure to conform to what society deems sexy/beautiful/woman-like. They need awareness of the issue of violence against women. Ask a teen girl if she is aware on the media objectification of women, and how that translates into violence against women.

The problem of awareness doesn't stop with women. It's mostly men that need to get their shit together, and change the way they view women in general. The buck doesn't stop with women. THAT would be victim blaming.

Who cares whether or not a woman gets implants? Their body, their rules. Judging or shaming someone for personal choices they make like taking pictures of themselves is part of the problem in the first place. This is still victim blaming.

Ask yourself WHY they are doing it? As my gf pointed out, what would lead them to alter a pleasure point that ultimately feeds their loved offspring?

not really. i think we should prevent and punish violence without prejudice. 'where's it's most needed' can change depending on the culture or times. one could argue it's most needed to focus on males in this country.

males are the victim of violent crime more than females. males are encouraged to enlist in the army and go kill other males at a rate far higher than females, and in the past drafted againt their will. males kill themselves at a rate higher much higher than females.

I know deep down you mean well, by saying that we should fight against violence for everyone, but it is simply a fact that men don't have to deal with reported/unreported rape, mentla/physical abuse, domestic battery, slavery/sex trafficking, etc etc as much as women do. In my country, Dominican Republic i.e., the term "Domestic violence" wasn't even in the law books until 1997. Always comparing the two is a symptom of the problem.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Go on...

Look for my Robocop story in the BDSM thread.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

males kill themselves at a rate higher much higher than females.

I'm pretty sure that's due to social and cultural norms leading to men choosing more "violent", sure-fire ways of suicide such as vehicular suicide and shooting themselves, whereas women tend to overdose on pills and such with have less higher rate of success. So, it's not that men try to kill themselves more exactly, it's more like they succeed more.

But either way, most of the examples you listed are due to the patriarchal society which tends to present violence and power as a way to overcome problems, where men fear sharing their feelings and talking about their problems because they're afraid of being labeled as "sissies" or "homosexuals".

Really, the problem with Men's Rights aren't that they're not a legitimate cause...it's just that Women's Rights and Men's Rights AREN'T conflicting issues, they both stem from root causes based in patriarchy. Most MRAs blame women for their problems, and that's wrong, and that's why they're mocked.

 

[Zaptruder]

And yet... violence is disproportionately afflicted against men in both media and in real life.

Maybe the real problem is a culture of violence?

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

And yet... violence is disproportionately afflicted against men in both media and in real life.

Maybe the real problem is a culture of violence?

There's a difference in media violence, because violence against men is usually retribution and considered fair, or played for laughs. Men are usually hurt because they shot first, or are armed, or it's played for a quick laugh and the violence is glossed over and normalized/justified.

Media violence against women is a far different beast...it's rarely played for laughs, and instead used for shock value, with some sexual undertones as well...very rarely are women in media given a fighting chance, the violence inflicted upon them is almost always done in a way that reasserts their position as "objects" needing to be protected or reclaimed.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Ask yourself WHY they are doing it? As my gf pointed out, what would lead them to alter a pleasure point that ultimately feeds their loved offspring?

Some women need breast reductions for health reasons. Others need or want enlargement or shape adjustment, also for medical reasons. Most of the time, though, it's just plain not anyone else's damn business why a woman chooses to get breast surgery. On a case by case basis, sure, many people probably make silly or vain decisions, but to suggest that they are therefore to blame for systematic sexism is a misguided argument.

You also know that some women choose not to have children, right?

 

[BobbyRobby]

I'm pretty sure that's due to social and cultural norms leading to men choosing more "violent", sure-fire ways of suicide such as vehicular suicide and shooting themselves, whereas women tend to overdose on pills and such with have less higher rate of success. So, it's not that men try to kill themselves more exactly, it's more like they succeed more.

But either way, most of the examples you listed are due to the patriarchal society which tends to present violence and power as a way to overcome problems, where men fear sharing their feelings and talking about their problems because they're afraid of being labeled as "sissies" or "homosexuals".

Really, the problem with Men's Rights aren't that they're not a legitimate cause...it's just that Women's Rights and Men's Rights AREN'T conflicting issues, they both stem from root causes based in patriarchy. Most MRAs blame women for their problems, and that's wrong, and that's why they're mocked.

hey, i'm not trying to make this a men's rights issue. i am saying we should prevent and punish violent behavior without prejudice.

it shouldn't come down to whomever has a stronger lobby receives more protection.

your theory that my examples are due to a patriarchal society is conjecture, nor does it ultimately matter whose fault this is. blaming men for it just fosters a team mentality, and distracts everyone from focusing on the real problem, which is the violence. we don't need to look at the problem through your feminist lens to react to it.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

it shouldn't come down to whomever has a stronger lobby receives more protection.

Men are certainly lacking in lobbying power.

 

[params7]

I think I figured it out guys. As humans, we always need something to fight for. We love violence and we thrive on it. So now that the US/Western community is so overpowered and there is 0 pontential for any world war, the community is dividing up and fighting amongs themselves, i.e. males vs females.

If aliens attack tomorrow or all of Middle east bands together with Russia, China, Korea again nobody is going to give two shits about 'hurrr war on women!!' and people will just laugh at it.

But we are taking it seriously now because we've got nothing better to do, honestly.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

your theory that my examples are due to a patriarchal society is conjecture, nor does it ultimately matter whose fault this is. blaming men for it just fosters a team mentality, and distracts everyone from focusing on the real problem, which is the violence. we don't need to look at the problem through your feminist lens to react to it.

I didn't blame men, I blamed the "patriarchal" society.

Patriarchal has evolved more so to refer to a society where people rule through power and, historically, those in charge tend to be males. But anyone can contribute to the patriarchy, willingly or not, by reaffirming patriarchal values be it male or female.

I was just saying that the patriarchy feminism argues against ALSO negatively affects males who don't know where to direct their anger at and end up upset with women because they don't realize that they're oppressed by the patriarchy too, because they only see social issues as a black/white, male/female dichotomy.

But we are taking it seriously now because we've got nothing better to do, honestly.

I'm pretty sure striving for gender/racial equality is a very important goal for a civilized country, not something that should be tossed aside when "we have nothing better to do".

 

[EulaCapra]

One little criticism for Jean Kilbourne's Killing Us Softly: Girl, it's time to refresh the material. You've been giving the same lecture (and same outdated 90's pictures) and jokes for the past decade and a half.

And adding to the ignorance of women in the media, we should bring up the male:female ratio of them in TV/movies. Take Lost for example. Great show but let's face it: there's about a bajiliion guys for every Kate. Every CBS procedural show seems to have 5-6 guys for every 2 girls. Some of these shows are accurate-ish in their low male:female ratio depictions like Sons of Anarchy, but others can't be excused for portraying such an imbalance.

Action movies usually have a large group of guys with one token girl. *cough* Avengers *cough* It's one thing to gather a large group of guys plot-wise (Expendables), but it's another to just expect the female audience who watch these to only see themselves as the hero's girlfriend or the lone tough chick with no female friends. It wouldn't be so bad if there's an equal amount of movies that have a large group of women with a token amount of men, but there isn't (even including rom-coms). TV shows this year had 5 men for every 4 women which is an improvement, but I'd hate to see the stat for that for movies.

 

[kirblar]

And yet... violence is disproportionately afflicted against men in both media and in real life.

Maybe the real problem is a culture of violence?

I have no idea why the bigger, stronger half of the species would be more violent. None at all!

 

[Sanky Panky]

Some women need breast reductions for health reasons. Others need or want enlargement or shape adjustment, also for medical reasons. Most of the time, though, it's just plain not anyone else's damn business why a woman chooses to get breast surgery. On a case by case basis, sure, many people probably make silly or vain decisions, but to suggest that they are therefore to blame for systematic sexism is a misguided argument.

You also know that some women choose not to have children, right?

Medical/health reasons are one thing, altering your body to conform to the message protrayed by the media is the issue. You can't blame one gender, for the actions of the other gender. It is BECAUSE of a lack of awareness of this systematic sexism, that young girls resort to extreme measures. Getting implants for cosmetic purposes simply perpetuates the trend.

 

[Deified Data]

ITT we ask ourselves if it's appropriate to discourage violence against a single subset of society as opposed to discouraging violence in general.

The answer is yes. Discouraging violence against males, whites, Christians - whatever in-group you like - is always implicit and doesn't really pertain to the conversation. Powerful members of society protect themselves just fine. This discussion is regarding those members of society who always seem to be "asking for it", whether it be a black kid walking alone in a rich neighborhood at night or a woman about to get torn asunder by her abusive partner.

American society already abides by a doctrine of zero tolerance for violence, or so we tell ourselves. The issue is that we're always itching to find exceptions to the rule.

 

[Zaptruder]

I have no idea why the bigger, stronger half of the species would be more violent. None at all!

When you put it this way... it sounds like you also think: I have no idea why the smaller, weaker half of the species is treated in a way that portrays them as victims to the bigger strong more violent half of the species.

 

[Reuenthal]

I think breast implants which makes women to appear sexier is not an insane choice. Some objectification when combined with not being an asshole which appears to be increasingly the case in modern society where violence against women seems to be declining as far as I recall from what I read about the issue is not necessarilly bad.

We become more aware of beign sexy for the sake of the other sex, perharps especially women but that does not mean rise in domestic violence and I don't think it is necessarilly bad. What is bad and is related is an industry of slave sex trade.

So in the relatively modern age: Men care to be less violent against women. Women care more for being sexy.

If you want to limit violence just keep messages discouraging violence. I have seen the feminist (obviously not all are those just that some believe that and see that belief as part of their personal feminism) against women being sexy (or naked or getting implants or whatever) for the sake of men and wanting to control the lives of those women several times before but that has 0 chance of being succesful. A less violence future is possible a more prude and less implant use future is quite more unlikely because men and women won't listen to that and will live their life doing what they want. Sexual liberation happened, clock is not turning back.

it is quite more possible to limit wants when it comes to harming others though.

 

[captmorgan]

Medical/health reasons are one thing, altering your body to conform to the message protrayed by the media is the issue. You can't blame one gender, for the actions of the other gender. It is BECAUSE of a lack of awareness of this systematic sexism, that young girls resort to extreme measures. Getting implants for cosmetic purposes simply perpetuates the trend.

So is that the same for tattoos and piercing as well?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Medical/health reasons are one thing, altering your body to conform to the message protrayed by the media is the issue. You can't blame one gender, for the actions of the other gender. It is BECAUSE of a lack of awareness of this systematic sexism, that young girls resort to extreme measures. Getting implants for cosmetic purposes simply perpetuates the trend.

This is just sort of paternalistic. Do you think women who get tattoos and piercings are also resorting to "extreme measures?" What about gender reassignment surgery?

I know you're not doing it on purpose or anything, but policing women's bodies perpetuates these negative attitudes you're trying to raise awareness about.

 

[kirblar]

When you put it this way... it sounds like you also think: I have no idea why the smaller, weaker half of the species is treated in a way that portrays them as victims to the bigger strong more violent half of the species.

Power is power is power is power.

Why did men get power? Because they could take it and enforce it. It's not really more complicated than that.

 

[LCGeek]

I do not ignore this issue. I say this all the time where allowed as humans both sexes are often influenced or given messages that are basically objectifying or outright dehumanizing the best of either sex. You can't resolve this issue because it would require a massive change to a lot myths, beliefs, and culture we have as humans. We can all change ourselves but that won't make up for the masses who will use a lot of bs to say there is no problem or that's just how things are, which is a copout.

 

[Sadsic]

Discouraging violence against males is always implicit and doesn't really pertain to the conversation.

is it? i'm male and a rape victim and an abuse victim and i get soooooo much less support in general than if i was a woman. i've been told to my face that i should "suck it up and be a man". i'm very disgusted when i'm told this, but it's so common. there's such a lack of caring about males being raped that prison rape is considered a complete joke now. shit's fucked up

 

[params7]

is it? i'm male and a rape victim and an abuse victim and i get soooooo much less support in general than if i was a woman. i've been told to my face that i should "suck it up and be a man". i'm very disgusted when i'm told this, but it's so common. there's such a lack of caring about males being raped that prison rape is considered a complete joke now. shit's fucked up

Yeah, male rape victims should be treated with equal respect. Equality goes both ways really.

 

[faceless007]

is it? i'm male and a rape victim and an abuse victim and i get soooooo much less support in general than if i was a woman. i've been told to my face that i should "suck it up and be a man". i'm very disgusted when i'm told this, but it's so common. there's such a lack of caring about males being raped that prison rape is considered a complete joke now. shit's fucked up

Do you get told this by the same people who call themselves feminists or discuss things like rape culture?

 

[besada]

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/domestic_violence/resources/statistics.html

Just posting some numbers, in case we want to get an idea of what we're really talking about.

I think we should be discussing domestic abuse, period. Discussing only women's domestic abuse leaves out children (who are comparably abused) and men (who are not comparatively abused, but have considerably less resources to call on when dealing with spousal abuse).

I've unfortunately been involved with domestic abuse seem from several different angles, ranging from a male friend beaten within an inch of his life by his wife, to a good friend whose husband beat her until she suffered seizures, to a father who thought it was okay to threaten his children with knives. It's all ugly and dehumanizing and a clear indication that the world is rife with untreated mental illness.

 

[Sanky Panky]

This is just sort of paternalistic. Do you think women who get tattoos and piercings are also resorting to "extreme measures?" What about gender reassignment surgery?

I know you're not doing it on purpose or anything, but policing women's bodies perpetuates these negative attitudes you're trying to raise awareness about.

Regarding tattoos/piercings: what are the tattoos about? are they designed to perpetuate the idea that you need to change your body to attract the opposite sex? are they just artistic expressions of who you are?

I'm not arguing that we should police women's bodies, and the original comment by my gf was simply to raise awareness of the physical alteration women are subjecting themselves to, because of the images portrayed by the media. Them being aware of the sexism portrayed by the media, and not using it as a measuring stick for the womanhood, would be a way to reject this sexism.

 

[BobbyRobby]

I didn't blame men, I blamed the "patriarchal" society.

Patriarchal has evolved more so to refer to a society where people rule through power and, historically, those in charge tend to be males. But anyone can contribute to the patriarchy, willingly or not, by reaffirming patriarchal values be it male or female.

I was just saying that the patriarchy feminism argues against ALSO negatively affects males who don't know where to direct their anger at and end up upset with women because they don't realize that they're oppressed by the patriarchy too, because they only see social issues as a black/white, male/female dichotomy.

you're implying that if we had a matriarchal society, and if instead women rose to power, that they're wouldn't be violence, or significantly less so.

i don't think that's the case. the same problems that people resort to violence for would still exist. female dominated species in the animal kingdom such as bonobos are extremely violent.

 

[Kinyou]

We have an alarmingly high rate of teens and young women (really, women of all ages) who are undergoing breast enhancements. We see it everywhere. We are “used to it”. It is completely normalized in our society. When you really think of how sick it is that we cut open our bodies and stuff plastic bags full of chemicals into our breasts (which is also where we FEED OUR OFFSPRING FROM) it starts to become clear that this normalized behavior makes money for a gargantuan cosmetic industry while simultaneously leading to violence against women, rape, psychological misery, and a general inability for women to reach the status men have.

Did you consider while reading this passage that women’s nipples are one of the most erogenous areas of their bodies? Did you think of how a surgically enhanced woman in most cases loses sensation in the nipples? Can you see that she moved from a living, breathing, human with a way to experience bodily sexual pleasure to a woman whose breasts are now objects for men’s eyes and therefore mere things that now serve to give pleasure to someone else?

Why is this specifically about breast enhancement? Isn't every kind of cosmetic surgery (aside from reconstructive ones) an expression of the exaggerated notions of beauty in our society?

Also do I think that the problem lies a little deeper than that women want just to be attractive for men. Many women get fake breasts because it boosts their self esteem, and not just around men, but also around women.

 

[cutmeamango]

I only punch the women I love.