Support NeoGAF

[Devolution]

Because it's hopelessly naive?

We already teach people to do it. And most people listen. Some don't. You're not going to magically develop empathy and/or impulse control in people lacking it.

How is it naive? How many people have changed their minds about alcohol ingestion and short skirts not being token signs that insinuate a "yes" so no one has to ask because of the pressure put upon them by others. I seem to recall a thread on this forum not too long ago that suggested what women wear and imbibing alcohol is essentially "asking for it."

 

[Eggplant Wizard]

Because it's hopelessly naive?

The idea of teaching boys not to rape is a thing because the presentation of sex as an entitlement is a major fucking problem, and believed (or even proven?) to be a contributing factor to violence against women when the unstoppable force of entitlement hits the immovable object of non-consent. The naivete isn't in believing that we can develop impulse control in potential rapists; it's in believing that society only ever teaches that rape is wrong, when in reality this barely-even-whispered message is drowned out by the constant blare of "WOMEN ARE FOR SEX".

 

[Sanky Panky]

No, that's not how I view feminists in general, although a fair number of them would think you and your girl are rather ridiculous in your assertions. The above bolded is clearly victim-blaming. I hope your lady isn't widely published because people like you two are annoying.

So you are against women understanding the true reasons behind manipulating their bodies, in this case, a sexual organ to fit a male version of an attractive woman?

Are you really telling me that there is a reason for a woman to cut open her body and insert plastic bags filled with chemicals other than to be desirable in fulfilling the ultimate male understanding of sexualized feminine beauty? Tell me what it is. She just likes back pain and health issues?

 

[Pau]

Soyou tell them society thinks it's bad, and so they just do it when they think they won't be caught or can keep the victim silent.

They're rapists because they want to rape, not because we haven't prevented them from developing into them.

But that's one of the problems. Most rapists won't get caught and do keep the victim silent. This won't be changed by telling women to be "more careful" but by changing the culture.

 

[kirblar]

How is it naive? How many people have changed their minds about alcohol ingestion and short skirts not being token signs that insinuate a "yes" so no one has to ask because of the pressure put upon them by others. I seem to recall a thread on this forum not too long ago that suggested what women wear and imbibing alcohol is essentially "asking for it."

Alcohol ingestion falls into self-defense for guys. It's a situation where the guy in the situation actually has to be taught that he needs to not "go for it" in the situation because the consequences could be disastrous for him. But this is teaching someone "this is what the rape laws are", not "don't rape."

 

[Mumei]

...teeters weirdly close to victim blaming. It is never a woman's fault (or man's, or anyone else who happens to be a victim) that they were objectified, leered at, assaulted, or raped.

Mmm

While I obviously don't know Sanky's girlfriend, I think she's taking the rather extreme approach of "Your personal choices are political choices, and by buying into the notion that women need to look a certain way, you're helping to reinforce that." And this is one feminist position; there's obviously the opposite position of, "Well some women do want to look like that and the important thing is that it is self-directed and not something foisted upon by social pressures."

I'm much more the second position. But I think it is a fundamental misreading of "Women have to accept that they have perpetuated these practices, ideas, and stereotypes" to think that the point is that she's laying the blame for this at women's feet. The point is that these things aren't foisted upon women by men in all cases; women do play a role in perpetuating these things and recognizing the ways in which women perpetuate these practices through personal choices is important. This is obviously where the tension comes between recognizing that personal choices are political choices and yet recognizing that since your goal is that women should have the right to do what they want to with their bodies, free of societal conditioning and pressure, that means some women are going to do things that superficially appears like they are just going along with social pressures.

Because it's hopelessly naive?

We already teach people to do it. And most people listen. Some don't. You're not going to magically develop empathy and/or impulse control in people lacking it.

Truth be told, your position is actually hopelessly naive.

I mean, we actually don't do a good job when it comes to educating people about issues of consent.

 

[Osietra]

Deoviltion: there's a reason men pursue woman with loving purpose.

 

[faceless007]

They're rapists because they want to rape, not because we haven't prevented them from developing into them.

This is a far too oversimplified and inaccurate portrayal of why people commit rape.

Are you like this with other crimes? No point in teaching kids not to murder or steal because the kids who will grow up to will do it anyway? Where does this unstoppable impulse from in your view? Is it genetic?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Mmm

While I obviously don't know Sanky's girlfriend, I think she's taking the rather extreme approach of "Your personal choices are political choices, and by buying into the notion that women need to look a certain way, you're helping to reinforce that." And this is one feminist position; there's obviously the opposite position of, "Well some women do want to look like that and the important thing is that it is self-directed and not something foisted upon by social pressures."

I'm much more the second position. But I think it is a fundamental misreading of "Women have to accept that they have perpetuated these practices, ideas, and stereotypes" to think that the point is that she's laying the blame for this at women's feet. The point is that these things aren't foisted upon women by men in all cases; women do play a role in perpetuating these things and recognizing the ways in which women perpetuate these practices through personal choices is important. This is obviously where the tension comes between recognizing that personal choices are political choices and yet recognizing that since your goal is that women should have the right to do what they want to with their bodies, free of societal conditioning and pressure, that means some women are going to do things that superficially appears like they are just going along with social pressures.

Sure, I agree with that. Like I said, I'm sure there are many people who make decisions about their appearance based on social pressures or petty vanity, but I think that not giving people the benefit of the doubt about the choices they make about their own body ends up being just as much of an unhealthy social pressure. It was specifically the line:

More importantly, they have to be able to see why they have reinforced sexism or objectified themselves.

that came across as laying the blame in the wrong spot.

 

[kirblar]

I mean, we actually don't do a good job when it comes to educating people about issues of consent.

Completely agree here- it's something that wasn't covered in sex ed classes in school (and I was in a good school district.)

This is a far too oversimplified and inaccurate portrayal of why people commit rape.

Are you like this with other crimes? No point in teaching kids not to murder or steal because the kids who will grow up to will do it anyway? Where does this unstoppable impulse from in your view? Is it genetic?

They commit these crimes against other people because we're inherently predatory and self-interested.

 

[Eggplant Wizard]

Alcohol ingestion falls into self-defense for guys. It's a situation where the guy in the situation actually has to be taught that he needs to not "go for it" in the situation because the consequences could be disastrous for him. But this is teaching someone "this is what the rape laws are", not "don't rape."

Except that's still rape no matter what the laws are. If folks were educated about consent, people wouldn't need to worry about an event's legal status because everyone would already be able to identify it as rape.

 

[kirblar]

Except that's still rape no matter what the laws are. If folks were educated about consent, people wouldn't need to worry about an event's legal status because everyone would already be able to identify it as rape.

These things you talk about, they're man-made constructs. You're treating these things as though they're immutable laws, when the definitions vary across country and state lines.

 

[Devolution]

Alcohol ingestion falls into self-defense for guys. It's a situation where the guy in the situation actually has to be taught that he needs to not "go for it" in the situation because the consequences could be disastrous for him. But this is teaching someone "this is what the rape laws are", not "don't rape."

Not true at all. We are told from the time we basically get our periods that we're going to be targeted and we need to do x, y and z. From family, friends, teachers, administrations. However for a long time (a lot of college campuses are actually doing their part) there was no such movement towards young men to secure consent. There has long been the idea that rape is bad but those women wearing "slutty" clothing, imbibing alcohol or even being alone with a guy she knows is interested is communicating a "yes," so venture forth. If she cries about it later, it's really just her feeling shame, as she should.

Without explicitly informing men this is wrong and society essentially washing the hands of the rapist via slut shaming, victim blaming and even certain kinds of jokes there has been a tacit acceptance of the act as inevitable and her fault. The rape is an inevitable consequence for a woman who didn't play by the rules. Society was failed women and then blamed them for the acts of people who operate under the idea that they're entitled to sex from women because that's what they are essentially taught. And without the proper authority figures to tell them otherwise, why wouldn't they.

 

[faceless007]

They commit these crimes against other people because we're inherently predatory and self-interested.

All of us? Then why do the vast majority of us manage not to commit those crimes?

Is there any point to crime prevention or a justice system in your worldview at all?

 

[Sub_Level]

So you are against women understanding the true reasons behind manipulating their bodies, in this case, a sexual organ to fit a male version of an attractive woman?

Are you really telling me that there is a reason for a woman to cut open her body and insert plastic bags filled with chemicals other than to be desirable in fulfilling the ultimate male understanding of sexualized feminine beauty? Tell me what it is. She just likes back pain and health issues?

Are you trying to insinuate that all women who get cosmetic surgery are too stupid to know its to look sexier? Because I'm sure plenty understand the risks and reasons.

There's nothing wrong with cosmetic surgery. There's nothing wrong with women trying to look sexier for men and men trying to look sexier for women. And surgery is a fairly major step for a woman to take that the vast majority of women do NOT take; social pressures on beauty boil down pretty simply to a little makeup and not being too skinny or fat. But that has virtually been human society's social ideas on beauty for thousands upon thousands of years.

You're going to go insane once genetic technology gets to the point where we can define how a person looks from birth. lol You think social views on beauty are forced now? Wait until parents are choosing their child's eye color, hair color, and possibly even body type lol

 

[kirblar]

All of us? Then why do the vast majority of us manage not to commit those crimes?

Is there any point to crime prevention or a justice system in your worldview at all?

In my worldview, the point of a justice system is to excise these elements from society and protect society from them. "Justice" (in my view) is a fool's errand. Protecting people from harm is not one.

 

[Eggplant Wizard]

These things you talk about, they're man-made constructs. You're treating these things as though they're immutable laws, when the definitions vary across country and state lines.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Any sex where consent isn't clearly given is rape, whether a law says so or not. If this was communicated more clearly, then there shouldn't be a question of "well what are the laws in Minnesota?" People would just know not to do it.

 

[faceless007]

Are you really telling me that there is a reason for a woman to cut open her body and insert plastic bags filled with chemicals other than to be desirable in fulfilling the ultimate male understanding of sexualized feminine beauty? Tell me what it is. She just likes back pain and health issues?

You're being far too extremist here. I know a woman who got breast implants, for the sole reason that due to her body size (very petite), for most of her life she's found it difficult to find clothes that fit her frame well. She's happily married and it wasn't her husband's idea (he honestly didn't think she needed them) but she wanted them. They're not that large and I don't think anyone would guess unless they already knew, so it's really not for anyone else's benefit.

 

[Devolution]

Are you really telling me that there is a reason for a woman to cut open her body and insert plastic bags filled with chemicals other than to be desirable in fulfilling the ultimate male understanding of sexualized feminine beauty? Tell me what it is. She just likes back pain and health issues?

Um you're unfairly labeling women who want more symmetry or have had them removed due to cancer (and want replacements) here. In criticizing breast implants you're throwing the "I got them due to insecurities" blanket over every woman who gets them. That's pretty damn sexist of you.

 

[kirblar]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Any sex where consent isn't clearly given is rape, whether a law says so or not. If this was communicated more clearly, then there shouldn't be a question of "well what are the laws in Minnesota?" People would just know not to do it.

What's the age of consent? How inebriated does someone have to be before the words coming out of their mouth don't count? What counts as consent? These things aren't universal constants.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

What's the age of consent? How inebriated does someone have to be before the words coming out of their mouth don't count? What counts as consent? These things aren't universal constants.

Please stop.

 

[Jado]

So you are against women understanding the true reasons behind manipulating their bodies, in this case, a sexual organ to fit a male version of an attractive woman?

Are you really telling me that there is a reason for a woman to cut open her body and insert plastic bags filled with chemicals other than to be desirable in fulfilling the ultimate male understanding of sexualized feminine beauty? Tell me what it is. She just likes back pain and health issues?

There are many reasons for a woman to alter her body, but the simple matter is that she needs no major excuse to do so, nor does she need to validate her reasoning to the likes of you. No one asked for your archaic critiques, obviously tinted by your conservative Dominican upbringing (I should know because it was hell to shake off the bias). You seem to have a picture of the ideal woman in your head that should only be doing certain things in her life. It's bullshit.

 

[Trent Strong]

Not a result of the media.

 

[faceless007]

In my worldview, the point of a justice system is to excise these elements from society and protect society from them. "Justice" (in my view) is a fool's errand. Protecting people from harm is not one.

"Protecting people from harm" is exactly what rape prevention is about. So what are you criticizing about it? By your logic, there's no point to punishing or prosecuting any crime because criminals gonna criminalize. Pretty nihilistic view.

 

[kirblar]

Please stop.

Stop what? Am I upsetting you?

"Protecting people from harm" is exactly what rape prevention is about. So what are you criticizing about it? By your logic, there's no point to punishing or prosecuting any crime because criminals gonna criminalize. Pretty nihilistic view.

Methodology, not the goal. "Punishing" the criminal isn't the goal- protecting everyone else from the criminal is.

 

[jimi_dini]

Please stop.

“A good lover is a good listener. A bad listener is a best a bad lover and at worst a rapist.”

wtf

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

wtf

That's a decent quote.

The best relationships are based in mutual communication between both parties.

Most rapist ignore obvious signs women are giving off showing lack of consent (up to and including a literal "no!") and don't listen to them.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

wtf

Admittedly I just googled "consent" to find a write-up, and that's a quote from a book I haven't read, but surely we can agree these things aren't really up for debate, which was what was annoying about kirblar's post:

-Consent is an active agreement: Consent cannot be coerced
-A person who is intoxicated cannot legally give consent. If you’re too drunk to make decisions and communicate with your partner, you’re too drunk to consent
-The absence of a “no” doesn’t mean “yes”

I don't think the gray area that post was trying to suggest exists.

 

[Halvie]

I think you misunderstood the argument being presented in that paragraph, but suffice to say that the point was not "Motherhood is a chore", but that attitudes about male and female sexuality can have the effect of limiting the roles that women take on (though I think that has changed a lot).

But that said, I think that if you think that motherhood does not consist of a great deal of mindless chores that you probably have an overly romanticized notion of motherhood.

Probably romanticizing most jobs if you think they aren't mindless chores. Obvious exceptions are obvious.

 

[kirblar]

Not true at all. We are told from the time we basically get our periods that we're going to be targeted and we need to do x, y and z. From family, friends, teachers, administrations. However for a long time (a lot of college campuses are actually doing their part) there was no such movement towards young men to secure consent. There has long been the idea that rape is bad but those women wearing "slutty" clothing, imbibing alcohol or even being alone with a guy she knows is interested is communicating a "yes," so venture forth. If she cries about it later, it's really just her feeling shame, as she should.

Without explicitly informing men this is wrong and society essentially washing the hands of the rapist via slut shaming, victim blaming and even certain kinds of jokes there has been a tacit acceptance of the act as inevitable and her fault. The rape is an inevitable consequence for a woman who didn't play by the rules. Society was failed women and then blamed them for the acts of people who operate under the idea that they're entitled to sex from women because that's what they are essentially taught. And without the proper authority figures to tell them otherwise, why wouldn't they.

Completely agree that shame/social pressure re: sexuality is a massive contributor to the problems. It's a pernicious force that lurks behind so many of the problems.

 

[LaserBuddha]

I know I'll probably get reamed by someone making inferences about this but...

What's with the sudden surge in "victim blaming" discussion within the past year or so? While this has always been an issue that is discussed regularly, you'd think there was this huge explosion of rape/victim blaming lately compared to the past. What is making it suddenly so trendy (not discounting the importance of the message)? It's not just GAF, but it's much more pronounced on GAF than in general.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

What's with the sudden surge in "victim blaming" discussion within the past year or so? While this has always been an issue that is discussed regularly, you'd think there was this huge explosion of rape/victim blaming lately compared to the past. What is making it suddenly so trendy (not discounting the importance of the message)? It's not just GAF, but it's much more pronounced on GAF than in general.

Todd Akin.

 

[pigeon]

Alcohol ingestion falls into self-defense for guys. It's a situation where the guy in the situation actually has to be taught that he needs to not "go for it" in the situation because the consequences could be disastrous for him. But this is teaching someone "this is what the rape laws are", not "don't rape."

There's something drastically wrong with this argument.

Let's assume that sleeping with somebody who is too inebriated to consent is rape. In what sense is it self-defense to inform people of this? Why is the focus on the consequences accruing to the rapist? What is the distinction you're drawing between teaching somebody what the law is and telling somebody not to rape? Are you saying that this isn't rape, or are you saying that people do it because they don't know it's rape, but wouldn't do it if they didn't know? In that case, why is the focus on "rape laws" and not on "physical laws?"

 

[kirblar]

There's something drastically wrong with this argument.

Let's assume that sleeping with somebody who is too inebriated to consent is rape. In what sense is it self-defense to inform people of this? Why is the focus on the consequences accruing to the rapist? What is the distinction you're drawing between teaching somebody what the law is and telling somebody not to rape? Are you saying that this isn't rape, or are you saying that people do it because they don't know it's rape, but wouldn't do it if they didn't know? In that case, why is the focus on "rape laws" and not on "physical laws?"

Because people respond to negative consequences (or the threat of them.) The "intuitive" answer to "If both people are equally drunk, is it rape?" is not the actual one. Letting people know "Hey, this could turn very ugly for you tomorrow" gives them the knowledge to act in their own self-interest and avoid that situation.

 

[jimi_dini]

That's a decent quote.

A rapist may listen to the victim (to make him/her feel good or something) and then still rape, because he/she doesn't care about a "no" or he/she wants to show power over the victim. That's what most rapes are about. Power. Not sex.

And someone who doesn't listen all the time may still be great in bed, but no rape involved because that someone just has no mental defects. Including the other way round. Someone may listen all the time and care, but be really bad in bed.

It's also kind of creepy to say that a bad listener is at best a "bad lover" or at worst a rapist. I mean what? People only listen to other people, when they want to have sex? What about a bad asexual listener? And what about someone, who is deaf? That one can't be a good listener. So bad lover or at worst all rapists. What about a backstreet rapist? Do they really want to say that the only difference between a backstreet rapist and a normal person is the ability to listen well? What about sexual abuse of children? A child may not even know what the abuser is doing. What about sexual abuse of babies? A baby won't say "no". And doing that is not caused by not listening. It's probably some moral or mental defect.

It's like saying a bad listener is either a "bad person" at best or at worst a murderer. Because murderers don't listen when their victims beg for their lives. What kind of logic is this?

 

[StarWolf]

One thing that I think is an issue is how men don't try to "court" women anymore. It's all a "game". You know how guys all talk about "Bringing their A game" "getting into the dating game" and such. Men should see a possible relationship with a woman as something to take serious, yet the media and other men constantly perpetuate the idea that "hitting and quitting it" is so awesome and that a man should just use her, and I say that as a man. We really need to stop this idea that being a "player" is something to strive to be.

 

[Samara]

Just last week at my fathers xmas party the guys just said "ok kids upstairs. adults can stay"

So I just told them "yeah all the girls upstairs."" women go do the dishes while us men watch football. "

I got a couple of stfu looks from them, but damn I mean could they be any more subtle than that. I dont need a role where Im required to serve men as a rule.

Edit: all the kids were female. I was the only female adult there

 

[sleepykyo]

I know I'll probably get reamed by someone making inferences about this but...

What's with the sudden surge in "victim blaming" discussion within the past year or so? While this has always been an issue that is discussed regularly, you'd think there was this huge explosion of rape/victim blaming lately compared to the past. What is making it suddenly so trendy (not discounting the importance of the message)? It's not just GAF, but it's much more pronounced on GAF than in general.

Tropes v. Women. #1reasonwhy. Hitman Nuns. Hitman app.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Sure, but what does that have to do with the thread in general?

Eh, it's not really my thing.

Didn't think all that much of the essay, in premise or execution.

 

[shanshan310]

On the topic of women's roles in the middle east and elsewhere, I think the true nature of it is under or misrepresented in the west. In many cultures the woman is quite powerful, acting as the household financial planner and controlling what the husband spends. Yes the roles are more rigid and traditional, but it's not as if women are just confined to menial tasks. At least, it's not in a lot of places.

Violence against husbands does exist, too, but men are often too ashamed to talk about it.

First post and it's already a thread about men's issues. Amazing.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Ok, sure. Though wouldn't you agree that we should probably focus our attention where it's most needed?

well, who's most needed? Theres lots of information on violence for women, lots of ads, support groups, lots of awearness. Theres little to none for men...

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

One documentary (speech in this case) she showed me really opened my eyes to how bad things are:

Killing us Softly – by Jean Kilbourne http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rvnO3r0smY

It’s about how women are portrayed in the media. It’s a must watch if you want to be informed.

Every time I see a video from her, I always think, "Aren't women the ones who make magazines for women? Don't they fill them with ads?" She makes it seem like men are the ones who do all this. Maybe it's been a while since I watched on of these.

 

[Jburton]

Maybe I am not as clued in as others but where exactly does the media promote violence against women?

Rape culture ...... I have seen this term used many times but I don't understand what it is supposedly pointing out, there is a culture of rape?


I understand there are issues in relation to violence against women and obviously rape, but are these crimes not a minority in our society?

What is this culture of rape and promotion of violence against women and where exactly, are these terms used in relation to western society?

 

[alterno69]

I know violence against women exist and should be condemned BUT, why does nobody talk about the opposite? Why is it ok for women to slap men in the face when angry or offended but if a man does it is suddenly a big deal? I'm not saying is ok in either case but it does seem to be ignored when women do that kind of stuff.

 

[Jburton]

I know violence against women exist and should be condemned BUT, why does nobody talk about the opposite? Why is it ok for women to slap men in the face when angry or offended but if a man does it is suddenly a big deal? I'm not saying is ok in either case but it does seem to be ignored when women do that kind of stuff.

That double standard has always pissed me off.

I have met many women who hit men knowing they won't get hit back because they are women.


Obviously this is not all women and not meant as a generalisation .

 

[ZAK]

One thing that I think is an issue is how men don't try to "court" women anymore. It's all a "game". You know how guys all talk about "Bringing their A game" "getting into the dating game" and such. Men should see a possible relationship with a woman as something to take serious, yet the media and other men constantly perpetuate the idea that "hitting and quitting it" is so awesome and that a man should just use her, and I say that as a man. We really need to stop this idea that being a "player" is something to strive to be.

Agreed, I think some of the cultural messages about sexuality are demeaning and even damaging to men; but this isn't the topic of discussion here.

 

[faceless007]

I know violence against women exist and should be condemned BUT, why does nobody talk about the opposite? Why is it ok for women to slap men in the face when angry or offended but if a man does it is suddenly a big deal? I'm not saying is ok in either case but it does seem to be ignored when women do that kind of stuff.

It would be easier to take posts like this seriously instead of opportunistic and disingenuous attempts to deflect attention away from something, if they didn't only ever seem to be made in threads about violence against women.

Feminists have reacted to discrimination and sexist treatment in the media and our culture by becoming activists, speaking out, creating dialogue, and trying to raise awareness of their issues. If you think there are problems with depictions of men as well that need to be addressed--and you might be surprised to know many feminists agree that there are--perhaps you should take up similar tactics. Feminists are not the ones fighting you on this.

 

[cryptic]

I think society is the greatest manifestation of the innate desires of an animal and the subtle or blatant outliers that defy the norms are just holes in the fabric. These holes shock simply on the basis that the characters in a movie shouldn't exit the stage, and I feel the delusion of the stage not being reflective or perhaps 1:1 with reality presents the issue. We won't be human as we see ourselves until we shut ourselves down like robots. It's as if we continue to build and destroy as we're never quite right, unable to accept ourselves as we are, animals.

 

[leadbelly]

I know violence against women exist and should be condemned BUT, why does nobody talk about the opposite? Why is it ok for women to slap men in the face when angry or offended but if a man does it is suddenly a big deal? I'm not saying is ok in either case but it does seem to be ignored when women do that kind of stuff.

Yeah...

I think the reason people keep bringing up 'men's issues' in these threads is because it is never about men's issues, that's the point.

Maybe if we had an institution constantly bringing 'men's issues' to public attention, people might shut up. lol

Just an observation, that's all.

 

[Mumei]

Agreed, I think some of the cultural messages about sexuality are demeaning and even damaging to men; but this isn't the topic of discussion here.

Hey, long time no see.

And yes, I agree. I mean, I think it is connected (it is hard to talk about the effects of cultural messages about sexuality without also talking about their effect on men), but that's obviously not the discussion this topic was intended for.

It would be easier to take posts like this seriously instead of opportunistic and disingenuous attempts to deflect attention away from something, if they didn't only ever seem to be made in threads about violence against women.

Feminists have reacted to discrimination and sexist treatment in the media and our culture by becoming activists, speaking out, creating dialogue, and trying to raise awareness of their issues. If you think there are problems with depictions of men as well that need to be addressed--and you might be surprised to know many feminists agree that there are--perhaps you should take up similar tactics. Feminists are not the ones fighting you on this.

Quite right.