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[You Are Viewtiful]

What do you think happens to those people who wear it because they're forced to?

Once you ban the burqa? I imagine many wouldn't be allowed outside the house as much.

Is it really for everyone? Kinda doubt that.

When an adult insists that it's their choice, then it's none of your business after that.

 

[99Luffy]

Interesting. Over here the canadian liberal party called anyone that didnt support the niqab a racist. It destroyed the NDP party.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

You must be pretty cool and smart.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Women should be able to show themselves in public and not be forced to hide.

If you decide to live in germany you should stop to treat woman terrible.

Just because its someones believe and religion doesnt make it ok.

Women should also be allowed to not show themselves if they chose to. With all that gang rape nonsense that happened last New Years I can sympathize with wanting to hide from people.

 

[pigeon]

Is religion a choice when kids are encroached in it?

Is religion a choice when apostasy is punishable in some countries by death?

To the first point, I think it's a complex topic, but we generally allow people to raise their children in all kinds of antisocial ways. Should the state be taking over raising children? Or is it fine to raise your kid in Christianity or Judaism, but not Islam?

To the latter, kind of the point here is that these laws are happening in Germany, which, again, has freedom of religion. If people would like to quit their religions but can't because of their country's laws, wouldn't they just go ahead and quit when they got to Germany?

 

[Salty Rice]

Women should also be allowed to not show themselves if they chose to.

Then wear a scarf and sun glasses if this is the issue. Problem solved.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

Religion was one of the things which helped science develop. Islam had a pretty fondamental part into the way why use maths.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Once you ban the burqa? I imagine many wouldn't be allowed outside the house as much.

So then how does this in any way help them? They're clearly the victims here, so what does this alleviate? Without addressing any kind of oppression going on within the home or within the community, this only wags a finger at them rather than gives them an avenue to break free from dogmatic restrictions.

 

[Nere]

The subject of banning the burqa is a double edged sword and both sides are right. On one hand you are freeing them from an oppressive tradition while on the other hand they should be able to wear whatever they want. There is no right or wrong here I think both sides are right and both are wrong.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

Great! Next we can ban video games; they distract people from real things. Then we can ban fiction! If it isn't furthering science it shouldn't exist!

/s

 

[Noirulus]

The women forced to wear a burka (and yes, it's unarguably a symbol of oppression), aren't suddenly going to be free to wear what they so choose. They're going to be forced to be locked inside their homes.

Nothing is being fixed here.

And how do you propose change is going to happen? Something has to start it, and this is a start. Otherwise things are going to remain the way they are forever.

 

[wsippel]

Women should also be allowed to not show themselves if they chose to. With all that gang rape nonsense that happened last New Years I can sympathize with wanting to hide from people.

You wouldn't be allowed to cover your face at public events, such as a New Years party, anyway. Has nothing to do with religion, it's banned in Germany. Old anti-terror/ anti-riot law.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Is religion a choice when kids are encroached in it?

I grew up with religion (Islam, actually) and abandoned the context once I grew up. That was my choice. There's a discussion to be had about the brainwashing that religion requires, but once an adult says that it was their choice, you can't not take them at their word.

Is religion a choice when apostasy is punishable in some countries by death?

Not in Germany, which is the country in question.

So then how does this in any way help them? They're clearly the victims here, so what does this alleviate?

Hmm, I would offer a solution if I knew how, but I won't pretend to. I'm allowed to criticize other garbage solutions, though.

 

[blahness]

Well, if you have your face covered, you can't be scanned and put into a facial recognition database. Makes total sense why they would try to ban it.

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

If that is true then you need to reflect that in the religion and what it teaches. Because at this point in time, Islam is not exactly winning points with many people. If you can tell them precisely what you tell me now then more people will be less afraid of the religion. If you tell them to respect women's rights and LGBTQ people then that'd go a long way towards convincing others. Not to mention it'd create new generations of Islamic children who are more respectful towards women and LGBTQ people.

I think above all in Islam it's absolutely forbidden to kill innocent people, or to oppress them. I think the vast majority of muslims don't have any ill intentions towards anyone. Increasing the new generation in Saudi Arabia have been more accepting of LGBTQ people (They may not be marching in Pride anytime soon, but wouldn't discriminate against them) and have embraced gender equality, it's slow a process of progress, but it's good. Like we know gay people in the community, and they lead normal lives, but they generally try to keep their sexual orientation (Not a perfect situation, but no one would hurt them or try to exclude them. It's more of a gossip thing) . Women are encouraged to work, and marriages are becoming more about love than just formal traditions.

Because that's the reality of life. People in a particular country will already be suspicious of any migrant and the first thing they want will be your ability to integrate with them. I should know because I was a migrant too. From a moderate muslim country no less. Granted, my values were more or less already closer to the values of most western world but I still had to made some adjustment to how I perceive others. People will try their best to accommodate the refugees but similarly, they too need to understand that they are entering someone else's house, so to speak.

I agree, but the general discourse surrounding refuges doesn't respect or understand the immense difficulty that 'culture shock' has on people, and the awful experiences they have to go through.

 

[pigeon]

And how do you propose change is going to happen? Something has to start it, and this is a start. Otherwise things are going to remain the way they are forever.

This shows an astonishing lack of faith in the moral and practical success of liberal secularism. In many countries we assume that people will choose to moderate and stop oppressing themselves because it is better. Mostly people don't want to be oppressed!

Basically your statement here is that you don't actually think the German way of life is good enough that people will want to assimilate.

 

[Sinfamy]

This shows an astonishing lack of faith in the moral and practical success of liberal secularism. In many countries we assume that people will choose to moderate and stop oppressing themselves because it is better. Mostly people don't want to be oppressed!

Basically your statement here is that you don't actually think the German way of life is good enough that people will want to assimilate.

I think that.
We're seeing younger generations even less assimilated then old ones.

 

[Shaanyboi]

And how do you propose change is going to happen? Something has to start it, and this is a start. Otherwise things are going to remain the way they are forever.

Change doesn't happen when you condemn people who are already victims. It happens when you reach out and offer assistance to those who may be in need of standing against oppressive attitudes. Is the use of the burka something being perpetuated within their mosque itself? Is it being forced by the family? And if the woman is in a situation where it's being actively forced upon her, what can be done to offer her protection and help?

Reach out to help integrate muslim women into the community at large rather than leaving them stuck at home.

As it stands, Merkel's quote is basically limited to "That's not okay," and offering little nuance beyond giving her some appeal to conservatives (who by the way, don't give a fuck about the oppression or rights of muslim women)


I'm all for getting rid of the burka/niqab on a religious level, but it takes more than just saying "nah" to help those women integrate into the culture.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Seriously, but people act stupid in this thread without knowing much about German law at all.

The (religious) freedom of someone else stops there, when it might affect the basic rights of someone else. Thats our whole constitution.
The basic German rights are rights against the state, to protect yourself from the state and in other cases if they might affect basic rights of someone else.

So. Thats basic German law. The proposed law is only in affect for administrative buildings, courtrooms, schools as well as driving and during demonstrations. If you want to go shopping, go ahead.
If you want to get your drivers licence, you cant.

Now, the right the parties would use to justify that ban would be the right to life and physical integrity or safety concerns, which, in constant jurisdiction, is far more important than the right of religious freedom. Enough leading decisions by the BVerfG support that.

Keep in mind that I am just trying to talk about the law-side of things, not a moral one.

And if anyone might ask:

Spoiler

I have a German law degree. (Japanese expert )

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Again people like you don't understand the difference between Muslims. For example FGM is not very common in most Muslim Majority countries, nor is it mentioned in the Quran, it's a mostly in North African tradition (That of course I find very disgusting). I don't understand comparing the veil to FGM anyway, these to are not connected in anyway. You're understanding of cultures that refuges come is problematic, because it assumes it's very dire, even though (I assume, correct me If I'm wrong) you are apart of that culture. Yes, there are many problematic aspects of the cultures of Afghanistan (And to a lesser extent Syria), but certain practices like the veil are not going away suddenly, it takes generations for culture change.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
This isn't about the veil, but the burka. And yes I know some practices are more cultural/tribal than religious, but in the places where they are practiced, they still use religion as a reason, and the two are very often directly interconnected.

And of course it takes a while to change, but it won't change if no one does anything about it.

I know the way I always try to end oppression is to make laws against the oppressed instead of the oppressors. That's always effective.

How would you help the oppressed, in this case? It's not an easy problem to solve, to be sure. But it is a problem, and something should be done about it.

What do you propose?

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

The solution to oppression is not opposing oppression.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

The solution to oppression is not opposing oppression.

But thats not the "justification" for the ban. The proposed ban is for adminisrative buildings, driving and such stuff.

Imagine you go to get a new passport, have to renew your visa/residence permit and no one can actually really identify you? While more and more fingerprint scanners are here, the main identification is still facial recognition/signature.
The driving example also is more of a legal problem. If you get a speeding-ticket you can avoid that if you can prove that its not clear that the one is driving might be you. If you wear a burqa, you could always avoid speeding-tickets like that.

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

I have no idea what you're talking about.
This isn't about the veil, but the burka. And yes I know some practices are more cultural/tribal than religious, but in the places where they are practiced, they still use religion as a reason, and the two are very often directly interconnected.

And of course it takes a while to change, but it won't change if no one does anything about it.

FGM is female genital mutilation.

Burka's (I use the veil as general term) are particular to Afghanistan (And some other places to some extent), and grew out of cultural practices in area were the Taliban had power, but once had control over the country they it was made Burka as a standard for women. I've never seen a women wear a Burka in Saudi Arabia (My mom wears in Niqab, but as a choice only in Saudi Arabia, when she goes to Canada she wears only a Hijab), and most of the my generation wear the hijab and some don't (Mostly who come from urban areas).

 

[Coriolanus]

Hm.

Wondered if it could bring any positive change. Realized that france has been practicing the ban for some five years now. Googled to see the results (if any) of the ban. Not quite what i'd call positive results.

i mean... there are no positive results, apparently. Not on the first page, at least, and if it aint on the first page, it might as well not exist.

 

[Skinpop]

Otherwise, what's the issue?

the issue is that in the west we want to be able to see the face of other people. it's a trust, communication and cultural thing. I don't see any problem in wanting to keep it that way. i do however wonder how big of a problem this is. in sweden I see burkas like once a year and the other full covering veils once in a while. doesn't seem to be like a ban really is warranted.

 

[Kthulhu]

Oh Europe.

How you're attempts at multiculturalism amuse me.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

Nice call. Hijab is fine but the burqa is a joke which should not be tolerated in a civil society.

Yup.

If part of the culture was that women were also required to wear leashes around their neck, you'd still have some people saying 'It's a fashion choice, it's their right to chose'.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

Right, because banning religion all together worked so well in the past.

 

[KingK]

And how do you propose change is going to happen? Something has to start it, and this is a start. Otherwise things are going to remain the way they are forever.

Generally, just "doing something" while panicked, just for the sake of "doing something," all consideration of the consequences be damned...doesn't work out very well.

 

[Xe4]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

There are tons of atheistic/agnostic people who are completely devoid of scientific knowledge and logic. Same with countries; shit just look at some of Soviet Russia's embarrassing ideas on science to see your argument fall apart.

Religion was one of the things which helped science develop. Islam had a pretty fundamental part into the way why use maths.

Also this. Shit, one of the cornerstones of math was founded/expanded on during the Islamic golden age

Spoiler

(al-gebra)

. The knowledge of the natural world they had was only ever rivaled by the Greeks, and critical thinking flourished. Ibn al-Haytham, an Islamic scientist/mathematician/philosopher is higly regarded as one of the greatest, naturalists in between the time of Ptolemy and Kepler/Galileo.

Religion doesn't get in the way of science, dogmatism does, and dogmatism isn't reserved solely for religion.

 

[Violet_0]

been to Istanbul recently. I saw quite a few people wearing niqabs though I suspect most of them were tourists as well. I've found it somewhat amusing to see women in full niqabs taking selfies of themselves. Seeing how they force their children, even the small ones, to wear niqabs too, not so much - imagine spending your entire childhood and adult life completely veiled in black garbs whenever you go out in public because that's just what society deems appropriate. Just the thought of it actually still makes me rather angry

I have very little love for niqabs , but I don't know if I support a ban either. Too many factors play into. Not to mention that the main motivation for the ban is clearly to appeal to the growing islamophobic part of our society (there are a lot of them in Germany, well, all over Europe) because barely anyone here even wears them

 

[MistakenMobius]

Women should also be allowed to not show themselves if they chose to. With all that gang rape nonsense that happened last New Years I can sympathize with wanting to hide from people.

Good old victim blaming...

When people from middle eastern culture sexually aggress western woman they see as slut, this is is used as an explanation why Totalitarian sectarian garb should be more used...
newspeak at its finest.
Ignorance is Strength
Freedom is Slavery.
War is Peace

 

[CazTGG]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

I can't tell if this is meant to be a joke or not, assuming one could find humor in such an unfunny remark.

 

[Spectone]

Should the state be taking over raising children?

No fucking way, they did this in Australia to Aborigional children, ripped them from their families and destroyed their culture all because of the belief that the states way was correct and their parents was wrong.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

 

[FyreWulff]

gonna guess this is still legal for obvious reasons tho

 

[yanipheonu]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

This is adorably naive.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

gonna guess this is still legal for obvious reasons tho

You do realize that burkas are not like hijabs (the closest equivalent to a nun's veil), right?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You do realize that burkas are not like hijabs (the closest equivalent to a nun's veil), right?

And the Nuns Veil isnt required nor forced upon women unless they choose to go into religionhood.

 

[FyreWulff]

You do realize that burkas are not like hijabs (the closest equivalent to a nun's veil), right?

I realize every religion has a version of body covering, but for some reason, it's only ever the Muslim one that gets attention for laws.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

And the Nuns Veil isnt required nor forced upon women unless they choose to go into religionhood.

Of course. But let's keep going with the false equivalences because, why not

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Oh Europe.

How you're attempts at multiculturalism amuse me.

I wonder how long they're going to keep attempting it before they give it up.

 

[Xe4]

I realize every religion has a version of body covering, but for some reason, it's only ever the Muslim one that gets attention for laws.

Because Burqa's were created specifically to degrade women, maybe? If Christianity had a garmet like that I'd be up in arms too (I get pissed off with a lot of stuff some Christian sects push as well).

 

[Jzero]

I think you should leave religion at home or at your local place of worship. That would definitely help keep freaking Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses from knocking at my door all the time

 

[dextran]

Good.
All countries should ban religion altogether and their oppressive elements and conditioning of people. This is 2016, we need to move pass the stone age and move on to a new age of enlightenment of science and logic.

A few have quoted you, mocking you.
I wanted to add my support - verbatim.

I am personally atheist - but see incredible value in using science to determine our origins. The chicken and egg problem for me is the only interesting question that deserves a deeper look.

For me the secret of us is in our DNA , how trees and bronchial tubes are similar. I would call that hunt for knowledge Scientology if it had not already been taken.

Here's to the end of fairy tales and towards the pursuit of science.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Illegal: Wearing a removable religious thing
Still legal: Cutting off healthy bits of a baby boys genitals for religion (or sexual preference).

Pretty much. The inherent sexism of the burqa and niquab is terrible, but there are far more dangerous and barbaric religious practices that are given a pass.

If Western governments are going to cross the line into targeted religious legislation, then they should probably pick a better hill to die on.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I realize every religion has a version of body covering, but for some reason, it's only ever the Muslim one that gets attention for laws.

"For some reason"?
How about that in other religions, said garments are not forced upon the average (non-clerical) women, and they don't cover the entire face/head/body (again, you do realize no one is complaining about hijabs here, but specifically niqabs and burkas?)?

"For some reason".... SMH.

Because Burqa's were created specifically to degrade women, maybe? If Christianity had a garmet like that I'd be up in arms too (I get pissed off with a lot of stuff some Christian sects push too).

Indeed.

Pretty much. The inherent sexism of the burqa and niquab is terrible, but there are far more dangerous and barbaric religious practices that are given a pass.

If Western governments are going to cross the line into targeted religious legislation, then they should probably pick a better hill to die on.

Whataboutism in full effect here?

I am also opposed to non-medical circumcisions, but this isn't a thread about that.

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

A few have quoted you, mocking you.
I wanted to add my support - verbatim.

I am personally atheist - but see incredible value in using science to determine our origins. The chicken and egg problem for me is the only interesting question that deserves a deeper look.

For me the secret of us is in our DNA , how trees and bronchial tubes are similar. I would call that hunt for knowledge Scientology if it had not already been taken.

Here's to the end of fairy tales and towards the pursuit of science.

Umm... this is just too funny! And kinda irrelevant.

 

[sazzy]

Forcing someone to wear a particular garment is just as bad as forcing them not to wear that particular garment.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Religion is fake news.