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[LaserBuddha]

Hello Warhammer GAF.

Just looking for some new books to read nd Warhammer always caught my eye at the book store, just wondering a good place to start. Thanks in advance.

I'm of the opinion that reading "contemporary" 40k fiction first will lend the appropriate context to the Horus Heresy books.

First I would read through the fluff section of any edition 40k rulebook to get a basic understanding of the universe.

Use what you see in there to decide what you want to read about. There are tons of Space Marine books. A good number of Eldar and Imperial Guard ones too, and of course short fiction anthologies. I like the books about inquisitors for their perspective on the setting removed from a battlefield. I usually tell people to read the Eisenhorn trilogy, then the better Ravenor trilogy.

The Gaunt's Ghosts series (Imperial Guard) series is arguably the most classic one and a lot of fun. You can stop at any book but they held my attention for 9+ books. Titanicus and Double Eagle were cool diversions about colossal mech pilots and fighter pilots, respectively. Good and bad thing about the 40k setting is that it never really advances. It's always 5 minutes to midnight from every possible angle because that's the backdrop they maintain for the game. You don't have to worry about what order you read things in except within a series.

Aaron Dempski-Bowden is supposedly the "it" kid lately but I've been out of the loop.

 

[TheWarrior]

First I would read through the fluff section of any edition 40k rulebook to get a basic understanding of the universe.

 You don't have to worry about what order you read things in except within a series.

Thanks for the help. These 2 points especially address some of the concerns I had about jumping into a new universe.

I've read a ton of Star Wars which is familiar to me and was looking for something new. WH40K looks promising.

 

[SillyEskimo]

Thanks for the help. These 2 points especially address some of the concerns I had about jumping into a new universe.

I've read a ton of Star Wars which is familiar to me and was looking for something new. WH40K looks promising.

Short story compilations are a great entry into 40k fiction IMO. You get a little bit of everything in a single book and afterwards it should help you decide which way to go for a dedicated book. They are also quick and easy reads. My favorite and most memorable 40k fiction come from short stories.

 

[TheSadRanger]

I would also add that omnibuses are a great way to get into 40k, it's economic and provides you what you need for that story arc.

The obvious ones are the Eisenhorn omnibus and Ravenor. If you want chaos marines I recommend The Word Bearers omnibus or Night Lords.

As far as getting into the Horus Heresy I read twenty 40k books before I dived into it and was able to follow it relatively easily.

Also I'm expecting Visions of Heresy to arrive Tuesday, how are you guys liking it so far?

 

[Karakand]

Pencil me in as another person who suggests NOT starting with the Horus Heresy series.

The core story won't lose you, but the series is written for people familiar with the IP, not people who aren't.

 

[grendelrt]

Pencil me in as another person who suggests NOT starting with the Horus Heresy series.

The core story won't lose you, but the series is written for people familiar with the IP, not people who aren't.

I always recommend the Space Wolf with Ragnar as a starting point, because the first book is all about how a Space Marine is created and their capabilities.

 

[Tacitus_]

pics when you're done plz

Will do. Almost finished the first torso, but I'll need to pick up some new paints on Tuesday since I don't have proper colors for painting the exposed head. Airbrushing + washes make for some nasty bulges and boils

 

[LaserBuddha]

I'm going through the HE series now, re-reading the first three that I completed back in the day (I think Ben Counter is the reason I stopped). What do you guys think of the suggested reading order on Black Library's site?

http://www.blacklibrary.com/our-ranges-horus-heresy.html

 

[Diatribe1974]

I'm going through the HE series now, re-reading the first three that I completed back in the day (I think Ben Counter is the reason I stopped). What do you guys think of the suggested reading order on Black Library's site?

http://www.blacklibrary.com/our-ranges-horus-heresy.html

Read them on release, not timeline due to the constant worry of missing something earlier. In short: Read and Enjoy. It's what I do!

 

[LaserBuddha]

Read them on release, not timeline due to the constant worry of missing something earlier. In short: Read and Enjoy. It's what I do!

Can you explain what you mean by this?

 

[Tacitus_]

Almost done with the first two minis. Just need to get pallid flesh (or w/e it's called now) tomorrow after the stores open in order to finish the head since my current flesh color is too... lively for these lovely folks.

 

[Sayter]

Hello, WH40k GAF.

I was reading up on some of the lore and have a question. Of all the Chaos Space Marine divisions how is it that the Alpha Legion was never touched by one of the Chaos Gods? During the Horus Heresy the Death Guard were forced to follow Nurgle. Wouldn't the Alphas been tainted as well?

 

[Leunam]

The Death Guard, especially Typhus, gave themselves to Nurgle willingly, I believe. The Black Legion remain undivided, even though Abaddon has been shown favor by all four gods. Someone should have a better answer about the Alpha Legion specifically, though.

 

[Tacitus_]

Hello, WH40k GAF.

I was reading up on some of the lore and have a question. Of all the Chaos Space Marine divisions how is it that the Alpha Legion was never touched by one of the Chaos Gods? During the Horus Heresy the Death Guard were forced to follow Nurgle. Wouldn't the Alphas been tainted as well?

The book about their involvement in the Heresy claims that they went all double agent on Chaos, with their Primarch(s) receiving a vision that showed that as the only way to end Chaos forever, with Horus having a "what have I done" moment after conquering Terra and humanity going extinct in a couple of centuries.

Oops.

 

[Sayter]

The book about their involvement in the Heresy claims that they went all double agent on Chaos, with their Primarch(s) receiving a vision that showed that as the only way to end Chaos forever, with Horus having a "what have I done" moment after conquering Terra and humanity going extinct in a couple of centuries.

Oops.

Thanks! Such intense stuff. Why someone hasn't made a movie of this is beyond me. It's like Excalibur in space.

I have played Space Marine. That got me hooked.

 

[Tacitus_]

Thanks! Such intense stuff. Why someone hasn't made a movie of this is beyond me. It's like Excalibur in space.

I have played Space Marine. That got me hooked.

They made a CGI movie. It was absolute shit.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Thanks! Such intense stuff. Why someone hasn't made a movie of this is beyond me. It's like Excalibur in space.

I have played Space Marine. That got me hooked.

Movies would be great but I think there is just far to much lore to get the picture of how epic the whole universe is.

 

[WanderingWind]

Dawn of War 1 is still the game I go back to over and over again. I never get tired of it. I would give both testicles for an updated version with shiny textures and next gen graphics.

 

[Sayter]

Movies would be great but I think there is just far to much lore to get the picture of how epic the whole universe is.

I think it could be done with the right script writers. But, you're right. There's so much to choose from.

 

[Karakand]

Hello, WH40k GAF.

I was reading up on some of the lore and have a question. Of all the Chaos Space Marine divisions how is it that the Alpha Legion was never touched by one of the Chaos Gods? During the Horus Heresy the Death Guard were forced to follow Nurgle. Wouldn't the Alphas been tainted as well?

The Alpha Legion is shrouded in mystery and tbh you're probably never going to *really* know. (Nothing you read in 40K is *really* canon, just a perspective on what happened.)

Also not all of the traitor legions rebelled because they served Chaos. The Imperium (even in the Great Crusade era) is kind of shit and the primarchs existed in various states of social maladjustment. The Night Lords and Iron Warriors were unaligned with Chaos then and that's still mostly the case in M41 as well.

 

[TheSadRanger]

I've been going through Visions of Heresy after it arrived in the mail a few days ago and I'm not impressed at all by it. There's a huge lack of new art material and much of it is either recycled stuff from Collected Visions or promotional art/covers that Neil Roberts has done the past few years since Collected Visions. There's a huge gap in art quality as well in much of the material between Roberts' and everyone else.

The way they space out some of the material is baffling as well. In one section they show the art decals of all twenty legions in a easy to read two page section that I'm pretty sure is from Collected Visions, but when it gets to the Primarchs they are spread out all over the fucking book. The book doesn't even have art for some of them like Konrad Qurze or Alpharius.

You would at least expect they would have some new art for famous scenes or battles in the Heresy like Euphrati Keeler taking picts or banishing a daemon. Or Gaviel Loken on Isstvan or any of his adventures....... But nope, here's some shit we found on google image search from fan submits on wiki sites.

I think there was one new art piece that I saw of Fulgrim fighting Ferrus Manus on Isstvan done by Roberts. Guess I just expected better since it's a decently expensive art book.

 

[Tacitus_]

Just finished the book Titanicus. Pretty good book for 40k, though one plotline didn't add anything and didn't have anything cool in it. Some grimdark, but not enough to save it. A bit too many characters as well so you'd lose track of who everyone was and what they were doing.

But other than that, it was full of titans pumping hot plasma into each other and the mechanicus praising machines, some guardsmen having balls of plasteel and dying off because tanks aint shit against Titans. The chapters were numbered in binary too which was kinda cool. Had to wreck my memory a bit to remember how to convert 1101 to base10.

Spoiler

it's 13

 

[More_Badass]

Dawn of War 2...holy shit, what an awesome game and an awesome introduction to the franchise

I had heard of Warhammer before, but never really paid attention to it. Played the demo for Space Marine, that was pretty cool. But I got addicted to RTS's recently and I like the micromanagement, unit-control types, so after Company of Heroes, Dawn of War kept coming up in the lists and articles I was reading.

Not only is it an awesome game (love the RPG elements), but now I'm hooked on the 40K universe. Not the tabletop stuff, but the world and story is just fascinating. I love my sci-fi dark and gritty so this whole insane bleak mix of military sci-fi, fantasy, and Lovecraftian horror is so right up my alley. I spent almost three hours reading through the Wiki

I definitely plan to get Space Marine and Space Hulk as soon as possible. What books would you recommend as good intros into the world?

 

[Tacitus_]

The rulebooks give you the best info dumps. Other than that, the Horus Heresy is nice.

 

[More_Badass]

Just spent the last day reading through the Wiki and TVtropes page on and off. 40k is fucking insane and insanely awesome.

Are there any other games like Space Marine? Grunt-on-the-ground perspective action

And is there a Warhammer RTS on a Total War scale? Compared to DoW's intimate small unit control? Because that would be amazing

 

[Karakand]

Are there any other games like Space Marine? Grunt-on-the-ground perspective action

And is there a Warhammer RTS on a Total War scale? Compared to DoW's intimate small unit control? Because that would be amazing

There's Fire Warrior but it was dire when it originally came out, I'd hate to play it today. I guess the OLD Space Hulk games kind of count, but they're a lot more cerebral than Space Marine was.

Prior to Dawn of War the games tended to be turn-based strategy games (e.g. Chaos Gate, Final Liberation). They aren't bad, but they can be brutal and tbh they're long in the tooth now. They still make them this way (e.g. the NEW Space Hulk, Squad Command.)

It was an IP with very languid polymorphic content until recently. You've picked the right time to hop in.

As for your earlier question about books, I don't think we've ever really settled on a good answer to where a newbie should start. You've already done a lot of research so imo you're better equipped to jump around more freely than someone who say just played Space Marine. There's a lot of self-contained stuff like the Space Marine Battles series.

 

[Azih]

Just spent the last day reading through the Wiki and TVtropes page on and off. 40k is fucking insane and insanely awesome.

Are there any other games like Space Marine? Grunt-on-the-ground perspective action

And is there a Warhammer RTS on a Total War scale? Compared to DoW's intimate small unit control? Because that would be amazing

A lot of people were hoping when Sega both Relic that they'd get the Warhammer IP and get Creative Assembly to make a Total Warhammer. But Games Workshop is doing odd things with the Warhammer license for video games now. Smaller games that don't seem as good as Dawn of War.

 

[Tacitus_]

Speaking of books, just finished Nemesis. Pretty cool book, including a twist that I had no idea that was coming. Liked how tightly wound it was and the plot was pretty thrilling even though I knew that both of the missions would fail because canon dictates so.

Next up, The First Heretic.

 

[TheSadRanger]

Speaking of books, just finished Nemesis. Pretty cool book, including a twist that I had no idea that was coming. Liked how tightly wound it was and the plot was pretty thrilling even though I knew that both of the missions would fail because canon dictates so.

Next up, The First Heretic.

You'll love First Heretic, it's a great ride with some great non space marine characters. It's easily within my top five in the series. It drags a little bit during the middle but overall its really, really good.

 

[Karakand]

I'm reading the First Heretic atm too and I'm not really liking it, which disappoints me a lot since (1) it's ADB and (2) I enjoyed Lorgar's character in other HH books. I was looking for more of a complete biography of Aurelian I guess? Maybe there will be some flashbacks later on?

On another note, the new Ciaphas Cain audio drama is MILES better than the first one. They even managed to capture the metafictive quality (i.e. Amberly Vail editorializes) of the books that gives them enough charm to overlook the painfully repetitive narration from Cain.

 

[Sneaky Gato]

So uh I guess 7th is real... Man 6th was not well received at all if they are moving on to next edition already. I guess this new Battleforged vs. unbound is also a way to separate tourny lists from narrative lists as well.

 

[Tacitus_]

You'll love First Heretic, it's a great ride with some great non space marine characters. It's easily within my top five in the series. It drags a little bit during the middle but overall its really, really good.

Yeah, it was pretty good, though I had hoped it would follow some of the other characters instead of the cheating possessed.
Also finished Prospero Burns which I didn't like that much. I really didn't like that dream jumping in it, but it had its good bits like the space dock assault and the final bit.

 

[TheSadRanger]

I'm reading the First Heretic atm too and I'm not really liking it, which disappoints me a lot since (1) it's ADB and (2) I enjoyed Lorgar's character in other HH books. I was looking for more of a complete biography of Aurelian I guess? Maybe there will be some flashbacks later on?

On another note, the new Ciaphas Cain audio drama is MILES better than the first one. They even managed to capture the metafictive quality (i.e. Amberly Vail editorializes) of the books that gives them enough charm to overlook the painfully repetitive narration from Cain.

I'm kind of surprised, did you not even like the stuff with Cyrene and Argel Tal? The book is a slow burn but it gets really good. There's even some interesting origin stuff that links directly to 40k.

Lorgar is a bit more interesting to read in Betrayer than The First Heretic. If you want any insight into Lorgar's youth you're not gonna get all that much. Not a big spoiler but

Spoiler

Basically you learn Kor Phaeron raised him and that's about it.

 

[Karakand]

I find Argel Tal very flat, but I think that's as much a product of the pace of a narrative that doesn't really have time to sit and brood on things as it is the character's innate qualities. Dude's possessed by a demon and is like :TOshrug about it. ADB pls, Talos struggled more with mere prophetic powers in the First Claw books.

I was put off on Cyrene when she was introduced as a 17 year old holy sex worker. ADB pls this is down there with a tsundere navigator and a ship's mechanic shacking up. She's kind of fallen off in page presence where I'm at, maybe she will link back up with AT and I'll get some great back and forth.

Spoiler

Probably not lol

The conversation between

Spoiler

Magnus

and Lorgar has been the only moment of it I've enjoyed so far. That's my ADB right there.

Betrayer is something I've been meaning to scope out eventually. Butcher's Nails was very solid (by audio drama standards) and ADB managed to make a betrayal amongst betrayers have a weight to it that I haven't really encountered elsewhere. (Contra, say, Fulgrim's betrayal of Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus which really didn't get to me very much, though there is a great back and forth between them when Fulgrim reveals all.)

 

[TheSadRanger]

Ah, I don't want to spoil anything but there is some great stuff with the custodes at the end of First Heretic that I think you will like.

You really have to read Betrayer though, it's pretty much the finale in what ADB has done so far in the Lorgar/Angron arch. With Butcher's Nails bridging the two main novels.

I get what you're saying though how Argel Tal is a bit apathetic about being possessed though.

 

[Enosh]

apparently they are doing 7th edition soon?
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/05/warhammer-40000-7th-edition-arrives.html

is that normal? seems kinda soon, I don't play the game so I have no reference if that's just standard or if they just need more money ^^

 

[Leunam]

It is a little early for a new edition. Some thought it was initially going to be more like 6.5 but it's looking like seventh edition.

 

[LaserBuddha]

The verdict is its more of a 6.5.

 

[Leunam]

The books are out already right? Did you pick up any?

 

[LaserBuddha]

I have a Munitorum Edition coming next week, because I am a sick, sick man.

 

[Enosh]

I have a Munitorum Edition coming next week, because I am a sick, sick man.

if I had the money I'd buy that and I don't even play the game ^^ (well I'd like to but the nearest place to play it is like 100km away so "meh" the most I do is watch some battle reports sometimes and find them quite entertaining, even get quite a bit of the rules at this point despite never reading a rulebook)

take some pictures ^^

 

[Karakand]

Finished The First Heretic... idk it really just felt too fragmented throughout. The Custodes plotline wrapped up well like you said it would though, TSR. I also enjoyed the kind of fraternal / genetic rivalry angle with them that Lorgar made very explicit. Maybe one day we'll get a book just about them, they've always been so mysterious in the universe and I'd like just a dumb Space Marine Battles type thing about them.

Speaking of shit I've read though, all of these are free to a good home:

1. Fire Caste claimed
2. The Emperor's Finest claimed
3. The First Heretic claimed

As always, I only ask that you (1) be in the U.S. or have me ship to a U.S. address and (2) swear an Oath of Moment to never profiteer off of Black Library's low print runs in the future with any of these books if they ever get valuable in the secondary market. (I think Fire Caste might someday if Peter Fehervari ever makes it as an A lister Black Library writer.) Also I ask that you please be a little patient with delivery, I do go to the USPS a lot in my line of work, but it's not every day.

If you want my mini-takes on all these books:

Fire Caste - Probably the most unique 40K book / game / audio drama I've consumed but it is kind of insulting to your intelligence with a few unsubtle pop culture references. It's also not an easy read, not in the sense that literature isn't an easy read, but in the sense that it doesn't hold your hand with the important revelations in the story and you really need to piece the heavy shit together yourself, and no, it's not one of those books where the author has stayed off record about what the ending really is. If you read these books on the train or when you're otherwise occupied / able to be distracted, this won't be the book for you. If you're interested in the Tau, especially if you wonder if "everything that glitters isn't always gold" with them as they are probably the least abhorrent currently known civilization in 40K (not that they aren't abhorrent, they just are the least abhorrent), it will give you a different perspective on them, and especially their caste leadership and philosophies. It is kind of an Imperial Guard book in parts, but there's also an examination of commissars as a twisted stereotype, and commissars as people asked to carry incredibly heavy emotional burdens so I think that's worth the Zzz of the Guard stuff.

The Emperor's Finest - My first Cain book. It was pleasurable enough, I probably don't want to read another one for a long time because I can see how the common criticism of them (that they're repetitive) is very true. It's got civil wars, Astartes, the Mechanicus, Tyranids, Orks, and Space Hulks so you're getting a lot of cheap 40K excitement in a little book. I was familiar enough with Cain from his first audio drama to kind of fill in the stuff long-time fans know about, but if you know nothing about Cain you might want to at least read a Lexicanum article about him before tackling this one.

The First Heretic - I don't feel like it was ADB's strongest work and it's fragmented in bad ways (long jumps of time, weak emotional and intellectual characterization). I wanted a Lorgar biopic from it and it's definitely NOT that, but if you want to get a taste of how the legion who worshiped the Emperor as a literal god became the mendicant order of the Ruinous Powers you'll get that in here. It'll also maybe make you reconsider some of the fundamental things we take for granted about the mythos, but as always remember nothing you read in a 40K is canon!

 

[TheSadRanger]

Yea I can see what your saying about TFH being fragmented. To be honest I liked Betrayer more, which is pretty much a direct sequel basically to TFH.

There was a few cliffhanger's that I didn't like about Betrayer but man things get CRAZY in that book. It has a lot of surprises you won't see coming.

One thing I recommend is the compilation book Age of Darkness. There's one novella in it about an old Iron Warrior siege master that was left behind by his legion to watch this fortress he made. Basically after the Iron Warriors turned traitor they come back to retrieve him and his small force that was stationed there. Anyways it's pretty awesome, like Remo Ventanus awesome.

 

[Karakand]

Is this the same Iron Warrior who later stays loyal and shows up in Abnett's HH Ultramarine stories? I found him an interesting (but underutilized) character in those.

Since we're talking about that subject, I wish they'd do something about why Terran members of the Night Lords didn't have the same kind of integration issues that Terrans in other legions had during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy era.

 

[TheSadRanger]

Yea it's the same Iron Warrior, the story is called The Iron Within. It's written by Rob Sanders. You can probably buy it separately as an e-book on blacklibrary.com.

I don't know that much about the Night Lords to be honest, all I know is from what I've read in the short stories in Shadows of Treachery. I think since the Night Lords had been pretty strict on compliant worlds to begin with it probably wasn't that big of a deal for them to rebel. Plus didn't Curze tell them the heresy was gonna happen anyways or something?

 

[Saiyar]

Yea it's the same Iron Warrior, the story is called The Iron Within. It's written by Rob Sanders. You can probably buy it separately as an e-book on blacklibrary.com.

I don't know that much about the Night Lords to be honest, all I know is from what I've read in the short stories in Shadows of Treachery. I think since the Night Lords had been pretty strict on compliant worlds to begin with it probably wasn't that big of a deal for them to rebel. Plus didn't Curze tell them the heresy was gonna happen anyways or something?

Curze knew he was going to be murdered by the imperium since the first time he met the Emperor. Joining the heresy was probably an easy choice for him.

 

[Tacitus_]

Quick look at the Lexicanum says that when Emps arrived on his planet, he had a vision so terrible he almost clawed his eyes out. Then at the Heresy, he and his legion started a merry trip of insane murder batmanism across the stars until he realized what he'd become.

 

[Karakand]

Sorry, I was talking more about the rivalry in legions between Terran-born and homeworld-born Astartes. (If you've consumed any Garo stuff, this is a big deal in those as he was a Terran-born Dusk Raider and preserved their old traditions and never really fit in with the traditions borne of Barbarus.) In the Night Lords there never seemed to be an integration problem like that and I wonder why... maybe it was their gene seed, maybe it was because they really didn't have many traditions beyond a few with origins in Nostraman gang culture, maybe it was because they weren't really warrior monks, or even the fist of the empire, but shock troopers and there was no need of a culture for them to begin with. Maybe when you're a monster with other monsters you develop a bond that supersedes all other bonds. WHO KNOWS BUT I WANT TO HAVE SOMETHING TELLING ME WHY BLACK LIBRARY. One of my absolute favorite things about the First Claw series is how each character has a different attitude towards their lives as Night Lords.

As for why they fell in with Horus, I always felt the immediate cause was that Curze destroyed his own homeworld in wrath / shame and knew he had nowhere else to go, sort of like the Iron Warriors (though in their case there was also the unresolved feelings of disrespect). He's a very complicated person and I really haven't been satisfied with how he's been presented in the HH so far where he's just sort of a villain.

 

[Tacitus_]

As luck would have it, I've just been reading a story about them! They seemed to bond over the fact that they all were sadistic fucks who skinned people to set an example. The first captain even had a member of the Raven Guard in his retinue (though the rest of the members weren't quite all right with it).

Oh and apparently their primarch hated them for what they are. Angsty, psychotic space batman (well, more psychotic).

As for why they fell in with Horus, I always felt the immediate cause was that Curze destroyed his own homeworld in wrath / shame and knew he had nowhere else to go, sort of like the Iron Warriors (though in their case there was also the unresolved feelings of disrespect). He's a very complicated person and I really haven't been satisfied with how he's been presented in the HH so far where he's just sort of a villain.

Curze attacked Dorn for being an uppity twat (though he had a reason, they'd been executing POWs) and after getting incarcerated for that, murdered a bunch of space marines breaking out to return to his legion. Then he sulked off to space, time went by, the dropsite massacre happened, he warred with the Dark Angels for a couple of years and got his ass kicked by the Lion. The story still has some pages left so I'm not sure how it ends.

 

[TheSadRanger]

Hey Karakand so I'm reading Angel Exterminatus which I've been enjoying but I have a small issue with it, I'm about 100 pages in.

Spoiler

So I'm at the part where Fulgrim gets sniped at the ampitheater. So later he checks out to be fine and that the needle simply grazed his skull, but didn't he get shot in the eye socket?