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[Teknopathetic]

"There is a connection, you're just not thinking about it in the right way. A set of friends, co-operating and getting gear for everyone in the set will be able to equip everyone in the set much faster compared to everyone in that set only being able to get items for themselves, yes even with the changes. Before, you could get items faster by co-operation with friends, now you have to grind for them yourself. As I said, a solo vs team solution to the problem, I prefer having the team solution available. I shouldn't have used "solo and group" as terminology before, the wording seems to be causing some misunderstanding. :/"


This still doesn't answer the previous question of why someone who didn't put any effort into something should get loot. You say that you put in effort, but you aren't the one who will be using it, your friend will be. It's not really your place to take something for someone who didn't play for it over someone who did.

The greed option is there for you.


"Again, it doesn't matter because you actually have a higher average chance of getting any given piece of equipment under the old system if you have friends getting items for each other. On the other hand, if you are playing the game without any friends then yes, this change will make it more likely to get items, but still less likely than before the patch with friends. If people are for these changes based purely on wanting more loot for themselves, they'll actually be getting less now than they could have been before."

So, if you have a network of douchebags need rolling on stuff over the immediate people who could use it and actually put effort towards it, you can get more loot.


"If they're for these changes just out of the kindness of their hearts, then I'll just say that I am emotionally closer to the friends I talk to every day than random faceless, nameless players on the internet."

I think this really says it all. There's no real defense here, just a selfish group.

 

[eznark]

Again, it doesn't matter because you actually have a higher average chance of getting any given piece of equipment under the old system if you have friends getting items for each other. On the other hand, if you are playing the game without any friends then yes, this change will make it more likely to get items, but still less likely than before the patch with friends. If people are for these changes based purely on wanting more loot for themselves, they'll actually be getting less now than they could have been before. If they're for these changes just out of the kindness of their hearts, then I'll just say that I am emotionally closer to the friends I talk to every day than random faceless, nameless players on the internet.

It's not the kindness of my heart, it's the principle. If you didn't earn the item you shouldn't get the item. I don't condone Warhammer welfare.

 

[Won]

I know, I think they should be able to need for everything as well. It'd be pretty hypocritical of me if I thought only my friends and I should be able to need for each other. :lol

I know that way of thinking: "I have a friend, I NEED it!""I have a twink, I NEED it!""I can salvage it, I NEED it!""I can sell it on the auction house, I NEED it" Seen them all......

Blablabla....use the greed button, it is there for a reason and it saddens me that in these days people don't even care about a nice server community.

Thank god it works on my server. I already feel bad for even greeding items, because I end up with so much stuff I will never use.

 

[Vaporak]

"There is a connection, you're just not thinking about it in the right way. A set of friends, co-operating and getting gear for everyone in the set will be able to equip everyone in the set much faster compared to everyone in that set only being able to get items for themselves, yes even with the changes. Before, you could get items faster by co-operation with friends, now you have to grind for them yourself. As I said, a solo vs team solution to the problem, I prefer having the team solution available. I shouldn't have used "solo and group" as terminology before, the wording seems to be causing some misunderstanding. :/"


This still doesn't answer the previous question of why someone who didn't put any effort into something should get loot. You say that you put in effort, but you aren't the one who will be using it, your friend will be. It's not really your place to take something for someone who didn't play for it over someone who did.

The greed option is there for you.


"Again, it doesn't matter because you actually have a higher average chance of getting any given piece of equipment under the old system if you have friends getting items for each other. On the other hand, if you are playing the game without any friends then yes, this change will make it more likely to get items, but still less likely than before the patch with friends. If people are for these changes based purely on wanting more loot for themselves, they'll actually be getting less now than they could have been before."

So, if you have a network of douchebags need rolling on stuff over the immediate people who could use it and actually put effort towards it, you can get more loot.


"If they're for these changes just out of the kindness of their hearts, then I'll just say that I am emotionally closer to the friends I talk to every day than random faceless, nameless players on the internet."

I think this really says it all. There's no real defense here, just a selfish group.

Again:
1) why does someone else get more rights to a piece of equipment than I do if we put in the exact amount of effort towards getting it? IMO equal share of the work means equal share of the reward. I don't want to be discriminated, against OR for, based on what character I am playing right this moment. And again, the same goes for everyone else, just because I'm playing class A doesn't mean people playing class B shouldn't be rewarded for helping me.

2) You're trying to cast me in the moral negative here, but I feel sorry for your friends if you don't like them enough to click a button to help them out. Were both being mean to SOMEONE, I admit that, but everyone is every day of their life, in the sense that we're not being nice to them. All you can chose is who to be nice to, and I chose my friends.

 

[Won]

2) You're trying to cast me in the moral negative here, but I feel sorry for your friends if you don't like them enough to click a button to help them out. Were both being mean to SOMEONE, I admit that, but everyone is every day of their life, in the sense that we're not being nice to them. All you can chose is who to be nice to, and I chose my friends.

Again:
Use Greed. If you end up winning it, give it to your friend. He will be happy and you won't piss off anyone. That simple.

 

[Vaporak]

It's not the kindness of my heart, it's the principle. If you didn't earn the item you shouldn't get the item. I don't condone Warhammer welfare.

So you agree that since I was there helping kill whatever dropped the item I should have a shot at it? If so then yes, we are in agreement.

 

[Atrophis]

Again:
1) why does someone else get more rights to a piece of equipment than I do if we put in the exact amount of effort towards getting it? IMO equal share of the work means equal share of the reward. I don't want to be discriminated, against OR for, based on what character I am playing right this moment. And again, the same goes for everyone else, just because I'm playing class A doesn't mean people playing class B shouldn't be rewarded for helping me.

2) You're trying to cast me in the moral negative here, but I feel sorry for your friends if you don't like them enough to click a button to help them out. Were both being mean to SOMEONE, I admit that, but everyone is every day of their life, in the sense that we're not being nice to them. All you can chose is who to be nice to, and I chose my friends.

Dude to everyone else you are playing with there is no distinction between needing on some loot for your friend and just outright ninja'ing the loot out of greed. All it does is create drama and you'll get a rep as a ninja looter. Hardly worth it to help out a friend who cant be bothered to get their own loot.

 

[Vaporak]

Again:
Use Greed. If you end up winning it, give it to your friend. He will be happy and you won't piss off anyone. That simple.

Again, you still haven't convinced me that I shouldn't have a chance at whatever dropped if I helped get it. Looks like we have a fundamental moral based disagreement. I've explained my reasoning, and it seems like people disagree, I'm okay with that. I just hope you all fully know what this change means.

 

[eznark]

So you agree that since I was there helping kill whatever dropped the item I should have a shot at it? If so then yes, we are in agreement.

yeah, you should have a shot at it. Which is what greed is for.

Based on your comments though I think someone may need to draw you a map to that button, as I doubt you've ever clicked it.

 

[Vaporak]

Dude to everyone else you are playing with there is no distinction between needing on some loot for your friend and just outright ninja'ing the loot out of greed. All it does is create drama and you'll get a rep as a ninja looter. Hardly worth it to help out a friend who cant be bothered to get their own loot.

1) Reputation among friends is more important than reputation among random people of the internet
2) My friends do get their own loot, that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to help them, or them help me.

Anyways, I gotta go to class, have a nice day everyone.

 

[Vaporak]

yeah, you should have a shot at it. Which is what greed is for.

Based on your comments though I think someone may need to draw you a map to that button, as I doubt you've ever clicked it.

I've clicked it, when I don't want it and my friends don't say they want it.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"1) why does someone else get more rights to a piece of equipment than I do if we put in the exact amount of effort towards getting it? IMO equal share of the work means equal share of the reward. I don't want to be discriminated, against OR for, based on what character I am playing right this moment. And again, the same goes for everyone else, just because I'm playing class A doesn't mean people playing class B shouldn't be rewarded for helping me."

Discrimination is not even close to appropriate here. Bottom line is you don't need it. It's impossible to need something you can't use. You keep trying to bring this back to yourself and your efforts, but that means squat because you're needing on it to give it to your friend. Your friend didn't put any effort towards it and thus doesn't deserve it.

It's pretty simple.


"2) You're trying to cast me in the moral negative here, but I feel sorry for your friends if you don't like them enough to click a button to help them out."

All of my friends are quite understanding with regards to not need rolling stuff over other people for them. They're kinda decent people.

 

[GhostRidah]

bottom line is that they changed the loot system for the better, if you want to help your friend go to the AH and buy some gear for him.

 

[otake]

im wondering if I should concentrate on path of the scout for my shadow warrior. it can be boring being far from the action all the time and just spamming hawk eye.

 

[phinious]

I had a similair experience to the whole "need" looting debate thing. Although it was for exp.

I specced for AOE on my SW Vent. So I joined a group PQing. I start AOEing a ton of mobs and Im the only AOEer out of the 5 of us. I then notice one guy is afk, leeching off the group. I ask the group if he is leeching and they tell me he went to the store and will be back in 30 min.

I then tell them "thanks for the group" and I leave. I start kiting 2-3 mobs around on my own and AoEing them down. The group starts sending me tells from that group saying that I am now leeching off of them.

They thought that since I was in the PQ area, even though i pulled my own mobs, I was somehow leeching off them because I benefited from them being there helping the PQ go faster... I was also told I had BETTER join the group or leave the PQ area...

All of a sudden I got pissed and told them I didnt want to contribute my work and exp to a guy that is afk for 30 minutes. They then told me that the guy leeching had worked hard doing the PQ 3 times already and he deserved a break(similair to how the guy above thinks his "friends" deserve the loot from the group he is in). Then they called me a jerk for not helping them AoE.

WTF, why should I earn him experience because he was there earlier?

Anyway, I wonder if the guy above that ninja rolls on groups is the same guy that thought I was a leecher?
Dude, How does your friends matter at all to the rest of the group. If your friend isnt there, its a dick move.

What that leads to is everyone rolling need on everything, so next time something sweet rolls for you, and your the only one that could actually use it you have a 1/6 chance to get it.

How someone fails to comprehend this both amazes and embarrasses me.

 

[phinious]

im wondering if I should concentrate on path of the scout for my shadow warrior. it can be boring being far from the action all the time and just spamming hawk eye.

Scout stance kinda stinks until you hit lvl 26 and can have both festering arrow and enchanted arrow. I would personally go for skirmish and get the spiral shot aoe thing. You can spam it into groups, and it is awesome for when you are in a pq with a group for AoEing a bunch of mobs down.

I just hit 27 on my SW. I went scout and am now loving the character finally. If I use the rank 2 morale I can get crits on clothies for 2500+ follow that up with rapid shots and your 90% garaunteed to get the kill. Can only do it every minute though...

 

[Strawman]

I just hope you all fully know what this change means.

Yeh it means that greedy fucks cant ninja loot they cant use.

 

[Cheeto]

Servers down for anyone else?


Edit: Nevermind, I just saw the herald news.

 

[Twig]

I've clicked it, when I don't want it and my friends don't say they want it.

So you only click Greed when you don't actually want it.

But you click Need when you want it. AND when you need it.

Makes perfect fucking sense.

Oh, wait, no, you're just a selfish little asshat. Grow up, okay?

 

[JoeMartin]

Again, you still haven't convinced me that I shouldn't have a chance at whatever dropped if I helped get it. Looks like we have a fundamental moral based disagreement. I've explained my reasoning, and it seems like people disagree, I'm okay with that. I just hope you all fully know what this change means.

It means that people who weren't there to earn loot don't get it from their friends who ninja it from people who were there to earn it and can use it.

And you're right, you're part of the team that earned it, but taking the gear with the sole intent to give it to someone else voids your right to that gear. If *you* personally can use it, fine roll for it. But if you're going to roll on it just to give it to someone who was not on the team that did work to earn it, fuck you.

 

[mr stroke]

anyone know if there is still a GAF guild on Averhiem?

 

[Vaporak]

And you're right, you're part of the team that earned it, but taking the gear with the sole intent to give it to someone else voids your right to that gear.

Why does that void my right to it? I still don't see why me being a certain class/race should retroactively decide whether the time I have already invested be counted or not.

So you only click Greed when you don't actually want it.

But you click Need when you want it. AND when you need it.

Makes perfect fucking sense.

Oh, wait, no, you're just a selfish little asshat. Grow up, okay?

I'm trying to civilly explain my rational, I'd prefer it if you didn't bring personal attacks into this. And yes, if it's something that I can use, or my friend tells me to try for because it's better than what he has, then yes I did Need it. If neither of us could use it, or I couldn't use it and couldn't talk any of my friends, then I Greeded it; what's so hard to understand? I don't Need items we can't use because a strangers want of something is more important to me than my non-existent want of it. But if two people want something I own, I, as well as most of you I'd bet, would rather give it to a friend than a stranger.

Yeh it means that greedy fucks cant ninja loot they cant use.

You to, I'd appreciate keeping the personal attacks to a minimum. Further, most people don't define "Greedy Fucks" as people who acquire goods for the purpose of freely giving them to other people.

 

[FatalT]

Bah. I'm glad they changed the looting system in the new patch. Ninja looting twats.

 

[Twig]

I'm trying to civilly explain my rational, I'd prefer it if you didn't bring personal attacks into this.

I'm sorry, I have no respect for loot ninjas!

There's absolutely no acceptable excuse for rolling need unless YOU can use it. You've freely admitted you can't, and that you regularly roll need, anyway.

The fact that you CAN roll Greed is because you were there and put forth the time to earn the loot. But you can't use it. There's no reason you should be rolling need unless you're a twat.

 

[whiterabbit]

anyone know if there is still a GAF guild on Averhiem?

we're still there, just send a tell to any of us to join.

 

[Jube3]

Hey tekno, that axe you mentioned earlier, do you know the name of it? I want to let my IB friend know about it. thanks!

 

[Won]

Again, you still haven't convinced me that I shouldn't have a chance at whatever dropped if I helped get it. Looks like we have a fundamental moral based disagreement. I've explained my reasoning, and it seems like people disagree, I'm okay with that. I just hope you all fully know what this change means.

I really want to know what it means. It is scenario only anyway, where we can't just kick you out.

I also don't believe that, on a case were everyone disagrees with your way of thinking and Mythic even changes the game just because of players with your behavior, someone could convince you to anything.

 

[Haeleos]

Bah. I'm glad they changed the looting system in the new patch. Ninja looting twats.

How was it changed? I haven't been able to play since my copy still hasn't arrived in the mail.

 

[Won]

How was it changed? I haven't been able to play since my copy still hasn't arrived in the mail.

From the patch notes:

While in scenarios, players will no longer be able to select "Need" in their loot windows unless their career or race can use the item being offered. Please note: players of a lower level than required by the item are still able to roll. Outside of scenarios, this feature is an optional setting that may be turned on manually by group leaders .

Oh, they added it as a standard group feature. Cool.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Why does that void my right to it? I still don't see why me being a certain class/race should retroactively decide whether the time I have already invested be counted or not.



I'm trying to civilly explain my rational, I'd prefer it if you didn't bring personal attacks into this. And yes, if it's something that I can use, or my friend tells me to try for because it's better than what he has, then yes I did Need it. If neither of us could use it, or I couldn't use it and couldn't talk any of my friends, then I Greeded it; what's so hard to understand? I don't Need items we can't use because a strangers want of something is more important to me than my non-existent want of it. But if two people want something I own, I, as well as most of you I'd bet, would rather give it to a friend than a stranger.



You to, I'd appreciate keeping the personal attacks to a minimum. Further, most people don't define "Greedy Fucks" as people who acquire goods for the purpose of freely giving them to other people.

That's because you're being dense.

You don't understand the concept of the "Need" button, and yet you continue to advocate practices like monopolizing loot - "I need this for my friends."

The problem is you are selfish, and greedy. You are only considering things from your perspective, and not the perspectives of other people. The other people in the scenario may not play in a group of friends. After all MMORPGS are called Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. Hence, that means you are playing with a ton of people from a different backgrounds. They may not be playing for their friends, they may just be playing by themselves.

From their perspective, you're taking loot they could use for the whole purpose of benefiting some random stranger who didn't even participate in the scenario, he's just "leeching" off your good fortune. Furthermore, you are depriving them of an opportunity to get an item they worked for, to give it to someone who did not work for this item. They just got a gift from you.

There is no chance for them to get this type of opportunity on a rebound - maybe their friends don't play warhammer.

Instead, rather than concerning things from their perspectives, you are just greedily looking at things for the purpose of benefiting you and your friends, and not really caring about the work of other people.

 

[TheHeretic]

I'm trying to civilly explain my rational, I'd prefer it if you didn't bring personal attacks into this. And yes, if it's something that I can use, or my friend tells me to try for because it's better than what he has, then yes I did Need it. If neither of us could use it, or I couldn't use it and couldn't talk any of my friends, then I Greeded it; what's so hard to understand? I don't Need items we can't use because a strangers want of something is more important to me than my non-existent want of it. But if two people want something I own, I, as well as most of you I'd bet, would rather give it to a friend than a stranger.
.

Your friend, who isn't contributing, shouldn't get an item over someone who IS contributing. Your rational is a load of shit, you are wrong.

 

[bengraven]

I was about to say that. Don't take an item away from the players who actually killed the enemy just because you had a friend, who did not contribute, that "needs" it.

What a douche.

 

[Vaporak]

I'm sorry, I have no respect for loot ninjas!

There's absolutely no acceptable excuse for rolling need unless YOU can use it. You've freely admitted you can't, and that you regularly roll need, anyway.

The fact that you CAN roll Greed is because you were there and put forth the time to earn the loot. But you can't use it. There's no reason you should be rolling need unless you're a twat.

I don't particularly care what you're emotional reactions to the situation, positive or negative. But that kind of language isn't conductive to rational debate, nor is it allowed in the Neogaf TOS.

I really want to know what it means. It is scenario only anyway, where we can't just kick you out.

I also don't believe that, on a case were everyone disagrees with your way of thinking and Mythic even changes the game just because of players with your behavior, someone could convince you to anything.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to Ad Populum. If you want to convince me, and I most certainly can be convinced, you need to be at least rational, or better yet empirical. Emotional arguments only work on people who already agree with you. I’ve got another thirty minutes till my next class, so I’ll be here if you want to continue.

That's because you're being dense.

You don't understand the concept of the "Need" button, and yet you continue to advocate practices like monopolizing loot - "I need this for my friends."

The problem is you are selfish, and greedy. You are only considering things from your perspective, and not the perspectives of other people. The other people in the scenario may not play in a group of friends. After all MMORPGS are called Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. Hence, that means you are playing with a ton of people from a different backgrounds. They may not be playing for their friends, they may just be playing by themselves.

From their perspective, you're taking loot they could use for the whole purpose of benefiting some random stranger who didn't even participate in the scenario, he's just "leeching" off your good fortune. Furthermore, you are depriving them of an opportunity to get an item they worked for, to give it to someone who did not work for this item. They just got a gift from you.

There is no chance for them to get this type of opportunity on a rebound - maybe their friends don't play warhammer.

Instead, rather than concerning things from their perspectives, you are just greedily looking at things for the purpose of benefiting you and your friends, and not really caring about the work of other people.

I'm not being dense; you're just not reading what I'm saying. I've already said that if you are playing this as a solo game then you are going to get better loot in the new system, it lowers the ceiling of items a group can get back down to what they can get as individuals. Furthermore, I have considered that I am depriving someone else of items in order to give them to a friend. I've also considered that by giving food to that same friend I am depriving a starving child in Africa that food. But you know what, my friends matter more to me than strangers do. I simply don't have the resources to be good to everyone and I've accepted that, so I try to help those that I care about. I hope all of you calling me a scumbag, "greedy fucker", twat, etc call yourselves and most of the people on this forum that for not giving a significant portion of your/their monetary earnings to charity. After all, there are people out there who need that money way more than you do.

Your friend, who isn't contributing, shouldn't get an item over someone who IS contributing. Your rational is a load of shit, you are wrong.

But I am contributing; you still haven't said any reason why my time and effort shouldn't be considered when reward time rolls around. If my time and effort give me a shot at the item, then I should be able to have that chance regardless of what I want to do with said item.

 

[Won]

Starving children, heh? :/

 

[Vaporak]

Starving children, heh? :/

It’s intended to illustrate the absurdity of some people's moral indignation. If they're this upset over bits of binary information, how much more upset are they over things that people truly "need". It goes back to me wanting to get the argument away from an emotional one and go to a rational one. Either way though, I got class now.

 

[TheHeretic]

But I am contributing; you still haven't said any reason why my time and effort shouldn't be considered when reward time rolls around. If my time and effort give me a shot at the item, then I should be able to have that chance regardless of what I want to do with said item.

Your time and effort entitles YOU to be rewarded, which is why you earn experience and items for participating in events. Not only are you going to need roll on any item YOU can use, you are also need rolling on items OTHERS can use.

If two characters can use an item, one of them has participated in an event and the other hasn't, its completely obvious who should be rewarded. If you don't participte in an event you don't get ithe rewards it offers, simple.

Fuck your appeals to ad hominem, you are a selfish moron. Taking items from people who are earning them and giving them out like candy.

I'm not being dense; you're just not reading what I'm saying. I've already said that if you are playing this as a solo game then you are going to get better loot in the new system, it lowers the ceiling of items a group can get back down to what they can get as individuals. Furthermore, I have considered that I am depriving someone else of items in order to give them to a friend. I've also considered that by giving food to that same friend I am depriving a starving child in Africa that food. But you know what, my friends matter more to me than strangers do. I simply don't have the resources to be good to everyone and I've accepted that, so I try to help those that I care about. I hope all of you calling me a scumbag, "greedy fucker", twat, etc call yourselves and most of the people on this forum that for not giving a significant portion of your/their monetary earnings to charity. After all, there are people out there who need that money way more than you do.

What a terrible straw man. Bringing third world countries food supply into an argument over looting in MMORPGs.

 

[Kade]

This argument is more useless than jumping. It's just the same questions being answered in different words every time.

 

[Twig]

I don't particularly care what you're emotional reactions to the situation, positive or negative. But that kind of language isn't conductive to rational debate, nor is it allowed in the Neogaf TOS.

There is absolutely nothing rational about this.

You're being greedy, selfish, whatever the fuck you want to call it. Your attempts to defend yourself are desperate at best.

But I am contributing; you still haven't said any reason why my time and effort shouldn't be considered when reward time rolls around. If my time and effort give me a shot at the item, then I should be able to have that chance regardless of what I want to do with said item.

Your time and effort is considered.

That's why you have the opportunity to roll in the first place. Greed is built for exactly what you want. Your friends should never get priority over people who actually participated in whatever rewarded the item or equipment you're trying to steal. If you can use it, and it is an upgrade, you roll need. If you can't use it, but you know one of your friends can, roll greed. Once again: the very fact that you helped earn the item is why you have the opportunity to roll greed in the first place. Had you not participated, you would not have the opportunity. Your time and effort is recognized when that roll window pops up and asks you to Need, Greed, or Pass.

Stop being so fucking greedy.

Still don't get it? Then you never will, and you're a lost cause. Thankfully, I don't have to play with you. Sadly, I have to play with far too many people like you.

 

[Vinci]

Someone is actually angry about the ninja-looting fix?
Seriously?

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Hey tekno, that axe you mentioned earlier, do you know the name of it? I want to let my IB friend know about it. thanks!"


The axe I picked in particular is Mercy.

Really awesome weapon. Critting folks in light armor for up to 900.

 

[TheHeretic]

"Hey tekno, that axe you mentioned earlier, do you know the name of it? I want to let my IB friend know about it. thanks!"


The axe I picked in particular is Mercy.

Really awesome weapon. Critting folks in light armor for up to 900.

Pretty ironic weapon =/

 

[Sirpopopop]

I'm not being dense; you're just not reading what I'm saying. I've already said that if you are playing this as a solo game then you are going to get better loot in the new system, it lowers the ceiling of items a group can get back down to what they can get as individuals. Furthermore, I have considered that I am depriving someone else of items in order to give them to a friend. I've also considered that by giving food to that same friend I am depriving a starving child in Africa that food. But you know what, my friends matter more to me than strangers do. I simply don't have the resources to be good to everyone and I've accepted that, so I try to help those that I care about. I hope all of you calling me a scumbag, "greedy fucker", twat, etc call yourselves and most of the people on this forum that for not giving a significant portion of your/their monetary earnings to charity. After all, there are people out there who need that money way more than you do.

Really... comparing this situation to giving food to someone in a Third World Country. Nevermind the fact that food is a perishable substance, we're not talking about life or death here. If your friend needed the item because otherwise some weird in-game bug would kill him permanently, then yeah, people would understand you needing the item for your friend.

Instead, what we're talking about is respect. A more appropriate analogy would be that you and another guy built a bicycle, and then rolled the dice to see who gets the bike on the assumption that since you both NEEDED the bike, you would both use it. However, after you won, instead of you using the bike, you decided to give it to your friend.

It's not about "kindness" to your fellow player. It's about respect.

I mean, if you really only wanted to help your "group" and don't care about the rights of strangers, why don't you just play with them, and only them.

Heck, why are you playing an MMORPG in the first place.

Part of dealing with an MMORPG is learning to work in a greater community. If you don't want to be part of the community, why are you even playing the game in a first place? It's pretty clear by how you view loot that you are in it only for yourself and your friends, and everyone else is just a tool to get what you want. I mean, it's clear you don't respect their rights to an item, you just want to pass it to your friends.

But I am contributing; you still haven't said any reason why my time and effort shouldn't be considered when reward time rolls around. If my time and effort give me a shot at the item, then I should be able to have that chance regardless of what I want to do with said item.

Your time and effort is being considered when an item that you need for use actually drops.

You don't have to deal with other people taking your item that you need for use, just to help their friends.

 

[JoeMartin]

I'm not being dense; you're just not reading what I'm saying. I've already said that if you are playing this as a solo game then you are going to get better loot in the new system, it lowers the ceiling of items a group can get back down to what they can get as individuals. Furthermore, I have considered that I am depriving someone else of items in order to give them to a friend. I've also considered that by giving food to that same friend I am depriving a starving child in Africa that food. But you know what, my friends matter more to me than strangers do. I simply don't have the resources to be good to everyone and I've accepted that, so I try to help those that I care about. I hope all of you calling me a scumbag, "greedy fucker", twat, etc call yourselves and most of the people on this forum that for not giving a significant portion of your/their monetary earnings to charity. After all, there are people out there who need that money way more than you do.

:lol :lol :lol

Oh dear, I wasn't aware that we were arguing with a sociopath. Time to let this one die quietly.

 

[Onemic]

so what's the gaf guild on chaos?

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

so what's the gaf guild on chaos?

There is none.. we all went to different servers because a GAF guild won't live more then a few months.

Also its DESTRUCTION

People quit calling it "Chaos" :lol

I only know a few destruction people went to Skull Throne.. and a few are in Legions of Chaos.

 

[Vaporak]

Your time and effort entitles YOU to be rewarded, which is why you earn experience and items for participating in events. Not only are you going to need roll on any item YOU can use, you are also need rolling on items OTHERS can use.

If two characters can use an item, one of them has participated in an event and the other hasn't, its completely obvious who should be rewarded. If you don't participte in an event you don't get ithe rewards it offers, simple.

Fuck your appeals to ad hominem, you are a selfish moron. Taking items from people who are earning them and giving them out like candy.


What a terrible straw man. Bringing third world countries food supply into an argument over looting in MMORPGs.

If it's completely obvious then one of you should be able to give a rational argument supporting that position instead of just defining your position at me over and over. If you do want to have a rational discussion about the change, I am more than willing to listen. However, the lieing about my position and resorting to name calling is not appreciated.

Someone is actually angry about the ninja-looting fix?
Seriously?

I assume this is directed at myself, I however am not the angry one in this thread.

:lol :lol :lol

Oh dear, I wasn't aware that we were arguing with a sociopath. Time to let this one die quietly.

I don't appreciate the misrepresentation.

Really... comparing this situation to giving food to someone in a Third World Country. Nevermind the fact that food is a perishable substance, we're not talking about life or death here. If your friend needed the item because otherwise some weird in-game bug would kill him permanently, then yeah, people would understand you needing the item for your friend.

Instead, what we're talking about is respect. A more appropriate analogy would be that you and another guy built a bicycle, and then rolled the dice to see who gets the bike on the assumption that since you both NEEDED the bike, you would both use it. However, after you won, instead of you using the bike, you decided to give it to your friend.

It's not about "kindness" to your fellow player. It's about respect.

I mean, if you really only wanted to help your "group" and don't care about the rights of strangers, why don't you just play with them, and only them.

Heck, why are you playing an MMORPG in the first place.

Part of dealing with an MMORPG is learning to work in a greater community. If you don't want to be part of the community, why are you even playing the game in a first place? It's pretty clear by how you view loot that you are in it only for yourself and your friends, and everyone else is just a tool to get what you want. I mean, it's clear you don't respect their rights to an item, you just want to pass it to your friends.




Your time and effort is being considered when an item that you need for use actually drops.

You don't have to deal with other people taking your item that you need for use, just to help their friends.

See, why can't the rest of you respond like this? He's actually giving a respectful and rational response to my position by trying to clarify his.

Now, first, you are missing my point with the starving child argument. It is as follows: You are currently have the potential to possess a quantity of food/nourishment. I currently, or did in this case, have the potential to "posses" a small amount of data on a harddrive. Now, the necessity for nourishment far far exceeds the necessity for data on a harddrive, only one of them is a requirement for life. Further, by either of us "possessing" our respective quantities will deprive another human from simultaneously possessing, and therefore using what it is that we possess.
Given these conditions, it seems to me that if one is upset at me depriving someone else of data on a harddrive, then they should be far more upset at someone depriving nourishment from someone else who needs it. Especially so given that there exists people who truly need, as in will die with out, the nourishment; but there is no such person who will die without the data. I hope I have made my comparison more clear. The seriousness of the two cases is no where near comparable, and that's exactly the point. I'm using it to illuminate what I see as hypocrisy on the side of those condemning me as a "selfish little asshat" or a "Greedy fuck" when the relative "need" of the two situations does not logically induce such a title for me.

For your bicycle example, I see it completely differently. From my point of view this is what happens. Both myself and my co-worker do the work to construct a bicycle as our business (in game we both join PVP and help kill the same person who will drop the reward). Now in real life we have the choice of selling the bicycle for money, so that we can split the reward for our labor evenly, and unless one of us feels particularly altruistic that day, that is what we will most likely do. However, in game that is not an option. The reward is quantized in discreet units, the singular item or an integer # of items. Now, a way to resolve this dilemma and allow us both to be rewarded we must some how arrange to take turns acquiring the integer number of rewards. The most fair way to do this is to stick with the same partner and take turns getting the reward. That way, as the number of items being rewarded approaches infinity each of your two's share of the reward approaches (total amount)/2.

Now, seemingly a problem results when you do not in fact keep the same "business partner" for the entirety of your gameplay. It seems likely that at some point one of you will play without the other, and at some time help a completely random person in a new "business relationship". Now how do you decide how to take turns acquiring the items so as to evenly reward you both? You have no history to decide a loot order, so we must use something else instead. Enter the random number generator. Now, at lower numbers of total reward, the random number generator deciding loot order does a pretty terrible job at approximating the (total amount)/2 ideal that we are striving towards. This is by the way why I think so many people have a negative gut reaction to the idea. However, as the total amount of reward goes up, the random number generator does a better and better approximation of our ideal.

And that is where my trouble is. I see any given item as just an expression of the (total reward)/(number of workers) that I think should be due to everyone who did the work. While it seems everyone else is focused in on some particular portion of that (total reward) that might be more or less than their share defined by (total amount)/(number of workers). Perhaps my lack of item focus is hindering me from fully understanding your point of view. I'm the kind of guy that didn't even buy or equip any items on my character till lv10 when my friend laughed at me for still wearing the starting gear. :/

 

[JoeMartin]

I don't appreciate the misrepresentation.

Boo hoo.

Now, first, you are missing my point with the starving child argument. It is as follows: You are currently have the potential to possess a quantity of food/nourishment. I currently, or did in this case, have the potential to "posses" a small amount of data on a harddrive. Now, the necessity for nourishment far far exceeds the necessity for data on a harddrive, only one of them is a requirement for life. Further, by either of us "possessing" our respective quantities will deprive another human from simultaneously possessing, and therefore using what it is that we possess.
Given these conditions, it seems to me that if one is upset at me depriving someone else of data on a harddrive, then they should be far more upset at someone depriving nourishment from someone else who needs it. Especially so given that there exists people who truly need, as in will die with out, the nourishment; but there is no such person who will die without the data. I hope I have made my comparison more clear. The seriousness of the two cases is no where near comparable, and that's exactly the point. I'm using it to illuminate what I see as hypocrisy on the side of those condemning me as a "selfish little asshat" or a "Greedy fuck" when the relative "need" of the two situations does not logically induce such a title for me.

See, the only problem with your example is that it's two completely different things. One of them is an absolute necessity for life; the other, pixels in a video game. Comparing the two is as asinine as it gets. Moreover, no one is arguing the semantics of "selfish" or "greedy," as the context of the words is clearly applied to the situation at hand. Not only is your moral compass fucked up, you're one of the cosmically fucked up people that will do anything to defend themselves as right regardless of blatantly wrong they are.

And furthermore, as someone else already pointed out, this is a textbook straw man argument. Not only does it serve no purpose or point to the content of the argument at hand, its sole purpose is direct attention away from it.

The fact that you're even capable of creating an argument like this and are genuinely willing to stand by it makes you a sociopath. Your posts sound like piss poor arguments from someone who remembers some vocabulary terms from their philosophy 101 class.

 

[Onemic]

What would be a better server to join, a core or an open rvr server? I already have a lvl8 in a core server, but I don't like the fact that you have to be flagged to fight someone on another realm. Is open rvr similar to WoW's PVP servers in that you are flagged for combat everywhere?

 

[Vaporak]

Boo hoo.

See, the only problem with your example is that it's two completely different things. One of them is an absolute necessity for life; the other, pixels in a video game. Comparing the two is as asinine as it gets. Moreover, no one is arguing the semantics of "selfish" or "greedy," as the context of the words is clearly applied to the situation at hand. Not only is your moral compass fucked up, you're one of the cosmically fucked up people that will do anything to defend themselves as right regardless of blatantly wrong they are.

And furthermore, as someone else already pointed out, this is a textbook straw man argument. Not only does it serve no purpose or point to the content of the argument at hand, its sole purpose is direct attention away from it.

The fact that you're even capable of creating an argument like this and are genuinely willing to stand by it makes you a sociopath. Your posts sound like piss poor arguments from someone who remembers some vocabulary terms from their philosophy 101 class.

1) I am not equivocating the two situations, the fact that you are trying to insinuate that I am just shows that you are either not reading what I am writing, or you are reading without understanding. If it's the second, I will be glad to restate my rational if you so wish.

2) you seem confused as to the definition of a strawman, since I am not claiming anywhere in what you quoted that there is a position someone else is holding when they are in fact not. In fact what you are quoting is nearly exactly the opposite of a strawman: I am clarifying my own stance, not misrepresenting someone else's.

3) If I am so blatantly wrong then you can construct an actual argument supporting the opposing point fairly easily, as Sirpopopop is doing. If you want to have a reasonable discussion that's what you should be doing, not resorting to insults like me being a "cosmically fucked up" person.

4)

Your posts sound like piss poor arguments from someone who remembers some vocabulary terms from their philosophy 101 class.

Never taken it, I'm a math major not a philosophy student.

I hope Sirpopopop comes back, he's a much better debater than you are. :/

 

[Vaporak]

What would be a better server to join, a core or an open rvr server? I already have a lvl8 in a core server, but I don't like the fact that you have to be flagged to fight someone on another realm. Is open rvr similar to WoW's PVP servers in that you are flagged for combat everywhere?

At least in my experience you do seem to be flagged for combat everywhere on the openRVR servers. I have very rarely ran into anyone from the opposing sides in the newbie area though if that's what you are worried about. Nor come to think of it anywhere else besides the keep's or PVP scenarios.