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[Doran902]

I don't think the audience does. I think, generally, online superhero fans seem to be idiots. At least that's the impression I get from reading GAF. A lot of overreaction and drama. These movies tend to average over 2 hours. You can get a lot done in that time. Especially considering most of these movies tend to be pretty superficial.

I think people are just afraid of 1-2 hours of the generic introducing the characters / coming together instead of fighting each other plot. Then straight into a final fight with whoever the bad guy is. Probably Darkseid.

 

[Wiktor]

ehhhhh you say so.

It looks like slightly toned down Farscape with huge budget. So yeah, it looks awesome.

 

[Father_Brain]

Also..I sure hope the audience doesn;t need separate movie to introduce single character, because if it does, then Guardians of Galaxy will flop badly.

Strawman. A team of characters with a common antagonist, their own corner of the MCU, and shared elements to their backstories isn't the same thing. And even so, pretty much everyone would agree that it's Marvel's riskiest film to date.

Obviously, not every character needs to be introduced in their own film, but that approach seems vastly more workable for Earth-based characters with relatively straightforward origins (Flash, Green Arrow, Cyborg) than it does for characters with entire, fantastical sub-universes associated with them (Green Lantern, Wonder Woman).

 

[J10]

People don't remember team movies before Avengers I guess.

 

[Verendus]

I think people are just afraid of 1-2 hours of the generic introducing the characters / coming together instead of fighting each other plot. Then straight into a final fight with whoever the bad guy is. Probably Darkseid.

Avengers did that and the movie was fine. This was a movie that had 5 solo movies before which fans on here like to clamour about and it still spent a good hour introducing everything because the movie was effectively written as a standalone. Not even incorporating superhero movies, there have been many movies that have juggled ensemble casts.

It's not a complex or a difficult task juggling six characters.

The flaw I find with superhero fans is that they seem to want a character study for every character in one movie. That's not how it works. As long as the personality and character itself is strong, you don't need to delve into backstory or any of that nonsense. That alone will give the audience enough of an idea.

 

[The Flash]

Cool. Hope I'm in it.

 

[Wiktor]

Strawman. A team of characters with a common antagonist, their own corner of the MCU, and shared elements to their backstories isn't the same thing. And even so, pretty much everyone would agree that it's Marvel's riskiest film to date.
.

You still get shitload of characters to introduce in short frame, as well as completely fictional setting.

With BvS all you have to introduce is Wonder Woman. And you think it will be harder?

As peoeple already said, Hollywood has been doing team movies for decades and none of them required multiple solo movies before the main event.

 

[Bold One]

He also wrote Dollhouse and Serenity, let's not bring back this falsehood that everything Whedon touches turns to gold. We have no idea what his Wonder Woman film would have looked like.

erm, you may be hurting your argument there, sir

In a head to head between Snyder and Whedon, its not even a contest

 

[Wiktor]

erm, you may be hurting your argument there, sir

In a head to head between Snyder and Whedon, its not even a contest

Snyder seems to be slightly better director. Avengers and Serenity have been really unremarkable and generic in this area. It;s the scripting where Whedon shines.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Yeah just a weird thought I had, like them trying to match Marvel's 2 a year and at the same time and thrm filling the Hobbit winter slot.



Doesn't change the fact that they have been too scared to do one with a female lead even 12 movies in.
Widow had solo potential but most of that is gone after Winter Soldier, Marvel might get a movie after what? 3 Iron Mans, 3 Captain Americas, probably 3 Thors, Hulk, Antman, freaking GotG, 2 Avengers

well the most obvious reason for the past 4 decades...is that their most popular female characters are on teams like Rogue, Psylocke , and Storm for example, and they dont even have film rights to those chars. Sue Richards, She Hulk, Ms Marvel, Rachel Grey, Brunhilde, Sif, Misty Knight, Kitty Pryde, Dani Moonstar, Jubilee, Mockingbird, X-23, Black Cat, Sersi, Colleen Wing, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, Jean Grey.

team team team teams all of them. Huge parts of their characters were parts of the team dynamic so whats the point of doing a solo movie for the sake of a solo movie. Xmen could be an all girl squad and be a huge hit.

 

[Father_Brain]

You still get shitload of characters to introduce in short frame, as well as completely fictional setting.

With BvS all you have to introduce is Wonder Woman. And you think it will be harder?

As peoeple already said, Hollywood has been doing team movies for decades and none of them required multiple solo movies before the main event.

As I said in the same post you quoted, WW is much more problematic than, say, Hawkeye or Black Widow for a non-solo introduction due to the nature of her backstory. Especially so, given that she's a near-complete blank slate to the public despite her so-called "iconic" status.

If WW's role were limited to an out-of-costume cameo, or if this was a full-on Trinity film, I'd be a lot more optimistic that Terrio et al. could pull it off, but we already know that the former isn't the case and the timing of the Gadot announcement suggests that the latter isn't, either.

 

[Bold One]

Snyder seems to be slightly better director. Avengers and Serenity have been really unremarkable and generic in this area. It;s the scripting where Whedon shines.

Nope,

Serenity and Avengers are not spectacular, but they are good bodies of work, especially something as ambitious as Avengers.

the last decent thing Snyder has done was Dawn of the Dead a remake from 2005.

Fact is Snyder is not very original, he's a slightly more imaginative Michael Bay without the pyromaniac tendencies.

At least with Whedon you can count on him to come up with something interesting, conceptually.

Whedon is superior in every department and most importantly, knows how to have laugh.

 

[Sephzilla]

Nope,

Serenity and Avengers are not spectacular, but they are good bodies of work, especially something as ambitious as Avengers.

the last decent thing Snyder has done was Dawn of the Dead a remake from 2005.

Fact is Snyder is not very original, he's a slightly more imaginative Michael Bay without the pyromaniac tendencies.

At least with Whedon you can count on him to come up with something interesting, conceptually.

Whedon is superior in every department and most importantly, knows how to have laugh.

Wrong.

I generally agree that I think Whedon is better than Snyder, though. The one thing Snyder has over Whedon though is that he's good at stylizing his works.

 

[Neoxon]

Yeah just a weird thought I had, like them trying to match Marvel's 2 a year and at the same time and thrm filling the Hobbit winter slot.



Doesn't change the fact that they have been too scared to do one with a female lead even 12 movies in.
Widow had solo potential but most of that is gone after Winter Soldier, Marvel might get a movie after what? 3 Iron Mans, 3 Captain Americas, probably 3 Thors, Hulk, Antman, freaking GotG, 2 Avengers

Funny thing is, we almost got a separate Black Widow movie in Phase 2. GotG ended up taking its place due to Marvel loving the script of the latter.

GotG probably will flop anyway

You shut your mouth. GotG is gonna be a hit....it has to be.

 

[Effect]

I really would like to know why people keep trying to push the idea that what Marvel did is the only correct way. The constant harping of WB not doing it right, etc is starting to come off like there is something else behind it. It's getting to the point where I think they're just trying to justify having to go through those films (liked them or not). The idea that Sony, Fox, and WB/DC don't have to in order to find success I think might piss some off. A situation where other fans should have to pay their dues so to speak and shouldn't be getting the "good stuff" right away.

 

[Penguin]

I really would like to know why people keep trying to push the idea that what Marvel did is the only correct way. The constant harping of WB not doing it right, etc is starting to come off like there is something else behind it. It's getting to the point where I think they're just trying to justify having to go through those films (liked them or not). The idea that Sony, Fox, and WB/DC don't have to in order to find success I think might piss some off. A situation where other fans should have to pay their dues so to speak and shouldn't be getting the "good stuff" right away.

The simple fact is it worked

So to most people, if it worked once, it should work again.

If you deviate from it, it shouldn't work because the other way worked.

Kind of like that weird thing people do when they can't love more than one thing at a time.

 

[BadAss2961]

Whedon is superior in every department and most importantly, knows how to have laugh.

Doing forced comedy for the masses is all i'll give him over Snyder.

The guy can write, but his skill as a director is pure TV quality -- we're talking CW quality at best. Any random episode of Game of Thrones is better shot and more impressive looking than The Avengers.

 

[Wiktor]

At least with Whedon you can count on him to come up with something interesting, conceptually.

.

As a director? He sure didn;t come up with anything like this with Avengers.

 

[Sephzilla]

I really would like to know why people keep trying to push the idea that what Marvel did is the only correct way. The constant harping of WB not doing it right, etc is starting to come off like there is something else behind it. It's getting to the point where I think they're just trying to justify having to go through those films (liked them or not). The idea that Sony, Fox, and WB/DC don't have to in order to find success I think might piss some off. A situation where other fans should have to pay their dues so to speak and shouldn't be getting the "good stuff" right away.

Because all of their movies have made good money and then Avengers made boatloads of money?

People are harping on WB because WB is clearly trying to rush to Justice League in the hopes of riding the Avengers tidal wave of cash. They already tried to put together a Justice League movie using completely different actors than the ones for their standalone movies, that full apart. Now right off of Man of Steel they're already turning MoS2 into a stealth Justice League film before jumping into a proper JL movie.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

I really would like to know why people keep trying to push the idea that what Marvel did is the only correct way. The constant harping of WB not doing it right, etc is starting to come off like there is something else behind it. It's getting to the point where I think they're just trying to justify having to go through those films (liked them or not). The idea that Sony, Fox, and WB/DC don't have to in order to find success I think might piss some off. A situation where other fans should have to pay their dues so to speak and shouldn't be getting the "good stuff" right away.

Yeah, the yearning for a series of quality films based on the DC Comics Universe.

 

[Bold One]

As a director? He sure didn;t come up with anything like this with Avengers.

its Avengers, there is no need to jazz up a comic book movie.

 

[Wiktor]

Because all of their movies have made good money and then Avengers made boatloads of money?

People are harping on WB because WB is clearly trying to rush to Justice League in the hopes of riding the Avengers tidal wave of cash. They already tried to put together a Justice League movie using completely different actors than the ones for their standalone movies, that full apart. Now right off of Man of Steel they're already turning MoS2 into a stealth Justice League film before jumping into a proper JL movie.

6 years is "clearly rushing"? Lol.

 

[ReiGun]

The simple fact is it worked

So to most people, if it worked once, it should work again.

If you deviate from it, it shouldn't work because the other way worked.

Kind of like that weird thing people do when they can't love more than one thing at a time.

Which is weird, because that's the exact kind of thinking most executives and business men use. Well not weird, but it's like we've come to a point of being more enamored with business plans and marketing strategies instead of storytelling and filmmaking.

The quality of the story and the direction is going to be what makes or breaks World's Finest and JLA. Having a bunch of movies leading into them wouldn't do that. At best, it lets you use some narrative shorthand when you have to ultimately reintroduce everyone in the big team movie ala Avengers. But if the characters aren't working? If the story doesn't grab the audience? Then it won't matter.

 

[Sephzilla]

6 years is "clearly rushing"? Lol.

Considering their already aborted first attempt for a JL movie and that their proper JL movie is already Justice League 2 pretty much thanks to Man of Steel 2, yes. Honestly, heroes like Flash, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman (especially) need to have their own standalone introductions first before JL.

 

[Wag]

The Flash better be in this.

 

[ryan299]

I see your point, but the difference in that case to me would be that Black Widow went from a c-tier character in comic pop culture to top tier through that work. It's DC's failure because they have a character they're talk about like is A-List but continually treat like c-list. She deserves better than to be shoehorned in the way Widow was and more the the point, doesn't need to be.

I liken Wonder Woman to the Incredible Hulk, incredibly iconic characters that then landed tv series that still resonate in pop-culture today, but heroes that have also caught on more as icons than the actual characters.
The difference being that Marvel still recognised that Hulk is a big deal and made two movies before he was supporting cast.

I'm not saying this can't all turn out awesomely and Wonder Woman won't steal the movie and become the next huge thing, I just don't think she should share the spotlight with genuine b and c-list characters while the long shadow of a new Batman is cast over the whole thing.

Well we have no idea what Wonder Woman's role is in the new film. They understand that its important to get her right. I don't think the movie is going to be a mess like Iron Man 2

 

[Wiktor]

Considering their already aborted first attempt for a JL movie and that their proper JL movie is already Justice League 2 pretty much thanks to Man of Steel 2, yes.

If they were really "rushing it" the first one would never get aborted. And the idea that the moment there are more than two characters in the movie it bcomes "stealth Justice League" is ridiculous. It's like people have no clue what DC has been publishing in comics and animations for the last couple decades.
.

 

[Father_Brain]

I really would like to know why people keep trying to push the idea that what Marvel did is the only correct way. The constant harping of WB not doing it right, etc is starting to come off like there is something else behind it. It's getting to the point where I think they're just trying to justify having to go through those films (liked them or not). The idea that Sony, Fox, and WB/DC don't have to in order to find success I think might piss some off. A situation where other fans should have to pay their dues so to speak and shouldn't be getting the "good stuff" right away.

Well, for one thing, you seem to be projecting your own dislike of the pre-Avengers MCU films onto everyone else. That's a fallacy.

But it's true that WB doesn't need to follow the Marvel model of 3-5 solo films leading to a team film (and why confuse the issue by lumping Fox and Sony in there? Fox's characters have always been team characters, for the most part, and Sony doesn't have the characters to even attempt that model; MCU fans' criticism of their Marvel films has other rationales, some of them better than others).

WB's real problems are that (a) the film they're using as a foundation for the shared DCCU was not a film I cared much for at all, and (b) nothing in MoS, and nothing I've heard about its sequel, suggests that plans for the latter are borne out of any long-term plan or creative vision for a shared DCCU, as opposed to an executive-driven goal of matching Avengers' box office.

Am I biased? Maybe. But WB simply hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt from me yet. If they actually announce a more diverse and ambitious DCCU film slate in the near future, that'll go a long way towards changing my mind.

 

[Bold One]

Doing forced comedy for the masses is all i'll give him over Snyder.

The guy can write, but his skill as a director is pure TV quality -- we're talking CW quality at best. Any random episode of Game of Thrones is better shot and more impressive looking than The Avengers.

How is the comedy forced? that Shakespeare line Iron man gave to Thor is pure gold, you DC guys (yh, I realize I am arguing with a guy with a batman avatar and another with Slade) take yourselves too seriously.


Whedon is a better director and writer - has a good track record in TV and Film, Snyder has access to better cinematographers, big whooop. I'll give something to Snyder though and that is luck, WB keeps throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at him stylize things..

quick-cut slow-mos EVERYWHERE!

thats what I call a cushy gig

 

[Sephzilla]

If they were really "rushing it" the first one would never get aborted. And the idea that the moment there are more than two characters in the movie it bcomes "stealth Justice League" is ridiculous. It's like people have no clue what DC has been publishing in comics and animations for the last couple decades.

Animation =/= full hollywood productions.

Man of Steel 2 has confirmed Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, and there's still the rumor that a Lantern is going to be in it in some way, right?

 

[Wiktor]

Animation =/= full hollywood productions.

Man of Steel 2 has confirmed Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, and there's still the rumor that a Lantern is going to be in it in some way, right?

So glad you're already read the script and can confirm all those characters have huge important roles instead of cameos.

And it doesn't matter if it's in movies or in comics or animations. Justice League stories are about whole team working together. Just because Superman and/or Wonderwoman might appear in one page of Batman comics doesn't suddenly make it "stealth JL comic"

Honestly, heroes like Flash, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman (especially) need to have their own standalone introductions first before JL.

Why? So we will be forced to suffer through mediocre at best origin stories before we get to "the good stuff"? Those aren't complex characters. You can easily introduce them in team movie and then when they finally get their own standalone movies you can already get to the exciting parts instead of wasting 3/4 of the movie on telling the boring origin story

 

[ReiGun]

Considering their already aborted first attempt for a JL movie and that their proper JL movie is already Justice League 2 pretty much thanks to Man of Steel 2, yes. Honestly, heroes like Flash, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman (especially) need to have their own standalone introductions first before JL.

Wonder Woman maybe...definitely. But Flash? His origin is "One night Barry Allen was struck by lightning and became really, really fast so he decided to fight crime." Not exactly hard to explain. Aquaman? "Hi. I'm Arthur Curry. King of Atlantis. Yes...Atlantis exists." Neither of those origins requires two and a half hours of screentime and intense character study to explain.

And MoS 2 is not a Justice League because there is no Justice League in it. It's about Superman and Batman with Wonder Woman in a supporting role and what is likely a minor cameo by Cyborg. That's not a JLA movie. That's a World's Finest movie.

 

[Father_Brain]

The simple fact is it worked

So to most people, if it worked once, it should work again.

If you deviate from it, it shouldn't work because the other way worked.

Kind of like that weird thing people do when they can't love more than one thing at a time.

Let's distill fan sentiment down a bit.

If you loved Man of Steel, you're probably going to be excited for a series of team-up sequels, especially if you disliked most of the Marvel Studios solo films.

If you did not like Man of Steel, and enjoyed Marvel Studios' films much more (the camp I fall into), there's much more reason to be skeptical about WB's approach here.

 

[Penguin]

Wonder Woman maybe...definitely. But Flash? His origin is "One night Barry Allen was struck by lightning and became really, really fast so he decided to fight crime." Not exactly hard to explain. Aquaman? "Hi. I'm Arthur Curry. King of Atlantis. Yes...Atlantis exists." Neither of those origins requires two and a half hours of screentime and intense character study to explain.

And MoS 2 is not a Justice League because there is no Justice League in it. It's about Superman and Batman with Wonder Woman in a supporting role and what is likely a minor cameo by Cyborg. That's not a JLA movie. That's a World's Finest movie.

See I would argue Wonder Woman and Aquaman don't need it before hand.

Wonder Woman... again is Wonder Woman. You can go into her history on the island before or after a Justice League film.

Same thing with Aquaman because again he is Aquaman.

The Flash I think needs a bit of an origin and he has interesting rogues.

Let's distill fan sentiment down a bit.

If you loved Man of Steel, you're probably going to be excited for a series of team-up sequels, especially if you disliked most of the Marvel Studios solo films.

If you did not like Man of Steel, and enjoyed Marvel Studios' films much more (the camp I fall into), there's much more reason to be skeptical about WB's approach here.

Being skeptical of DC's approach is fine.

Being skeptical because they aren't aping Marvel's approach though is a completely different beast to me.

I get it. But it doesn't need to be that.

 

[BadAss2961]

quick-cut slow-mos EVERYWHERE!

Yeah... All that slo-mo in Man of Steel...

 

[Sephzilla]

Wonder Woman maybe...definitely. But Flash? His origin is "One night Barry Allen was struck by lightning and became really, really fast so he decided to fight crime." Not exactly hard to explain. Aquaman? "Hi. I'm Arthur Curry. King of Atlantis. Yes...Atlantis exists." Neither of those origins requires two and a half hours of screentime and intense character study to explain.

And MoS 2 is not a Justice League because there is no Justice League in it. It's about Superman and Batman with Wonder Woman in a supporting role and what is likely a minor cameo by Cyborg. That's not a JLA movie. That's a World's Finest movie.

Aquaman in particular really needs his own standalone introduction. He's not just an average Joe who gets a power ring or is struck by lightning and can run really fast. Just having him walk in and say "Hi, I'm the King of Atlantis" would be a horrible idea. Plus, given that to the masses Aquaman is still pretty much considered a joke, a standalone movie would help give him the image rehab he still needs.

Assuming they go with the Flash from the Arrow spin-off, Flash's origin is taken care of. Same with Green Arrow. Wonder Woman can probably forgo having a standalone origin movie given that her origin is, to my memory, is fairly straight forward. Batman can definitely go without another re-introductory movie considering his origin is pretty much common knowledge.

I just really don't like the forced JL hooks being put into Man of Steel 2. I wish it would stay "The cast of Man of Steel, plus Batman" (heck, the animated Worlds Finest movie was pretty much that plus Joker and Harley) instead of forced cameos to remind everyone that a proper Justice League movie is coming. If they were really 2 minute cameos, then the odds of those cameos contributing anything to the movie beyond a quick distraction should have no place in there. I really hope I'm wrong because I enjoyed Man of Steel, but the sequel is shaping up to be an Iron Man 2 kind of mess.

 

[ryan299]

Animation =/= full hollywood productions.

Man of Steel 2 has confirmed Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, and there's still the rumor that a Lantern is going to be in it in some way, right?

Haven't heard anything about Green Lantern but have heard stuff about a Aquaman cameo. Most reporters talking about the movie agree that every hero besides Supes, Batman and WW will be a cameo at the end setting up for the JL film. The movie will focus on those three.

 

[ReiGun]

See I would argue Wonder Woman and Aquaman don't need it before hand.

Wonder Woman... again is Wonder Woman. You can go into her history on the island before or after a Justice League film.

Same thing with Aquaman because again he is Aquaman.

The Flash I think needs a bit of an origin and he has interesting rogues.

Only reason I said you need one with Wonder Woman is because she introduces a significant mystical element to the universe with gods and such. Also, I think her origin story informs her character in a more profound way than Flash or Aquaman. But yeah, even that you can come back to.

With Flash, I think the strength of his character, at least in the JL cartoons and now in the Arrow-verse, is how instantly likeable he is. You don't even care about not knowing a ton about his origin because you just love the guy. I think introducing Flash upfront, skipping over his rather ho-hum origin so you can jump right into the fun stuff with the Rogues would serve the character better.\

Aquaman in particular really needs his own standalone introduction. He's not just an average Joe who gets a power ring or is struck by lightning and can run really fast. Just having him walk in and say "Hi, I'm the King of Atlantis" would be a horrible idea. Plus, given that to the masses Aquaman is still pretty much considered a joke, a standalone movie would help give him the image rehab he still needs.

Assuming they go with the Flash from the Arrow spin-off, Flash's origin is taken care of. Same with Green Arrow. Wonder Woman can probably forgo having a standalone origin movie given that her origin is, to my memory, is fairly straight forward. Batman can definitely go without another re-introductory movie considering his origin is pretty much common knowledge.

I just really don't like the forced JL hooks being put into Man of Steel 2. I wish it would stay "The cast of Man of Steel, plus Batman" (heck, the animated Worlds Finest movie was pretty much that plus Joker and Harley) instead of forced cameos to remind everyone that a proper Justice League movie is coming. If they were really 2 minute cameos, then the odds of those cameos contributing anything to the movie beyond a quick distraction should have no place in there. I really hope I'm wrong because I enjoyed Man of Steel, but the sequel is shaping up to be an Iron Man 2 kind of mess.

Aquaman being considered a joke is exactly why you don't want to give him his own movie upfront because no one would see it. lol Introducing him in JLA gives you a chance to change perception of the character without risking the IP on a solo film. Now, my "Hi I rule Atlantis" line was me being funny, but I do think there's a way to write it so that it works. Have him claim to be king of the seas but no one believes him. Make it a running joke (people complain there's no humor in DC's films) of people not believing him until he leads an Atlantean army to land and help fight whatever the fuck the JLA is fighting. This is obviously me fanficing, but I think that works.

I think the calling of the character additions to the movie "forced" is premature, as we know nothing about the story at this point. We don't know the capacity in which Cyborg and Wonder Woman are in the story. The nature of Cyborg's "announcement" suggest he's probably not a big role at all.

While I understand WB may not have earned the benefit of the doubt from everyone, I personally just like to have something substantial to chew on before I get upset. I feel like I don't have that yet here. *shrug*

 

[BadAss2961]

I didn't say it last night but I'm really excited that Snyder is the one directing. His visual style would allow for an amazing final battle or just battles that will certainly take place in a Justice League film.

I have no doubt he can handle a ensemble cast as well. I liked Watchmen but I know some didn't and but I couldn't honestly never figure out why. This might be off topic. People say they want faithful adaptions and by most accounts it seems like he delivered. I see more people that say that. So if that is true then I wonder if people simply didn't like the story as much as they claimed or thought they did once they finally saw it brought to life compared to just reading it. So instead of adjusting their belief in their enjoyment of the original and taking it down from whatever height they put it they just attack the live action film instead as if Snyder did something wrong. Is this possibly the case with some?

I've always thought that 300 and Watchmen are the most accurate comic book adaptations out there. The pages literally come to life. And Man of Steel is easily the best depiction of not only Superman's power, but a superhuman in general.

Sucker Punch is also one of the most anime live action's you'll ever see.

 

[.GqueB.]

After hearing Grant Morisson talk about Wonder Woman, I'm wondering what it would take to get it right in a movie version, since it seems there's a lot to work with. Is WB really scared that guys won't go see it? It seems like something that would attract more women than the average superhero movie and the guys would come if they got it right and also cast someone magnetic.

Wondering what the hesitation is since it has the potential to make tons of money. I'm guessing it's because WB just don't have the right guys thinking about it?

Since this was mentioned, I have to ask: Where are people getting the feeling that people are clamoring for a wonder woman movie from?

 

[Mengy]

Nope,

Serenity and Avengers are not spectacular, but they are good bodies of work, especially something as ambitious as Avengers.

the last decent thing Snyder has done was Dawn of the Dead a remake from 2005.

Fact is Snyder is not very original, he's a slightly more imaginative Michael Bay without the pyromaniac tendencies.

At least with Whedon you can count on him to come up with something interesting, conceptually.

Whedon is superior in every department and most importantly, knows how to have laugh.

I agree mostly, but Snyder is capable of great work, he is just inconsistent. Watchmen is my favorite Snyder film to date, I think his directors cut version of the film is fantastic. Sucker Punch, not so much. And MoS, while good it was a let down in many aspects.

 

[Effect]

Considering their already aborted first attempt for a JL movie and that their proper JL movie is already Justice League 2 pretty much thanks to Man of Steel 2, yes. Honestly, heroes like Flash, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman (especially) need to have their own standalone introductions first before JL.

I thought that first film was stopped because of the then writers strike. That they would have gone through with it had it not happen as everyone had been cast, costumes made, script was almost finish, etc. The idea of starting off with a huge event and then going to solo or team up films is something they have wanted to do for a while it seems. It's also something that is a DC comics thing. How many times has that happen in the comics?

It's how they've launched their new animated universe with adapting Flashpoint and Justice League: War. What they're doing now sort of patterns things on the direction they went with the original DCAU. Batman show to Superman show to then Superman/Batman team up and then Justice League show. This seems to be the direction Warner Bros and DC are comfortable with as it has worked for them in the past.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Have you watched Arrow? Or you talking about Slade never taking off his mask?

I love Arrow,
connected universe with Manu is preferred but Perlman is the definitive generic Deathstroke.
If Deathstroke shows up in a movie he isn't likely to be unmasked or have much backstory(unless he is the big bad in a Titans movie) so unless they go with the Arrow connection Perlman could work.

 

[Father_Brain]

Being skeptical of DC's approach is fine.

Being skeptical because they aren't aping Marvel's approach though is a completely different beast to me.

I get it. But it doesn't need to be that.

Fair. In the end, for me it comes down to benefit of the doubt.

I also think Wonder Woman is about the single worst possible choice for a JL member to introduce in a Black Widow/Falcon-size supporting role, but maybe I'll be proven wrong.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

C'mon now. People had no idea who the Avengers were. Everyone knows the JL.

What? I'd say it's the exact opposite

 

[ReiGun]

What? I'd say it's the exact opposite

Before the movies, the most well known Avengers were Hulk and Captain America. Comparatively, Superman and Batman are the most popular superheroes ever, Wonder Woman is the most popular female superhero ever, and Flash and Aquaman are both well known. People may not have known all the details, but the JL were definitely the more popular group in mainstream consciousness.

 

[BadAss2961]

Before the movies, the most well known Avengers were Hulk and Captain America. Comparatively, Superman and Batman are the most popular superheroes ever, Wonder Woman is the most popular female superhero ever, and Flash and Aquaman are both well known. People may not have known all the details, but the JL were definitely the more popular group in mainstream consciousness.

Green Lantern too, just to add.

 

[Penguin]

Only reason I said you need one with Wonder Woman is because she introduces a significant mystical element to the universe with gods and such. Also, I think her origin story informs her character in a more profound way than Flash or Aquaman. But yeah, even that you can come back to.

With Flash, I think the strength of his character, at least in the JL cartoons and now in the Arrow-verse, is how instantly likeable he is. You don't even care about not knowing a ton about his origin because you just love the guy. I think introducing Flash upfront, skipping over his rather ho-hum origin so you can jump right into the fun stuff with the Rogues would serve the character better.\



Aquaman being considered a joke is exactly why you don't want to give him his own movie upfront because no one would see it. lol Introducing him in JLA gives you a chance to change perception of the character without risking the IP on a solo film. Now, my "Hi I rule Atlantis" line was me being funny, but I do think there's a way to write it so that it works. Have him claim to be king of the seas but no one believes him. Make it a running joke (people complain there's no humor in DC's films) of people not believing him until he leads an Atlantean army to land and help fight whatever the fuck the JLA is fighting. This is obviously me fanficing, but I think that works.

I think the calling of the character additions to the movie "forced" is premature, as we know nothing about the story at this point. We don't know the capacity in which Cyborg and Wonder Woman are in the story. The nature of Cyborg's "announcement" suggest he's probably not a big role at all.

While I understand WB may not have earned the benefit of the doubt from everyone, I personally just like to have something substantial to chew on before I get upset. I feel like I don't have that yet here. *shrug*

Fair. In the end, for me it comes down to benefit of the doubt.

I also think Wonder Woman is about the single worst possible choice for a JL member to introduce in a Black Widow/Falcon-size supporting role, but maybe I'll be proven wrong.

I guess in the back of my head, always going to have the cartoon
And granted, a lot more room to spread

But they were able to introduce Wonder Woman in the pilot without much of an origin and go back to tell her story later on.

And guess not sure why couldn't be replicated here.

 

[tabs2002]

cant they get someone else to direct, Snyder has been so terrible lately

 

[Bold One]

I agree mostly, but Snyder is capable of great work, he is just inconsistent. Watchmen is my favorite Snyder film to date, I think his directors cut version of the film is fantastic. Sucker Punch, not so much. And MoS, while good it was a let down in many aspects.

This proves my point does it not, he can adapt other people's works like 300 or Watchmen or re-make Dawn of the Dead to pretty great effect (MoS outlier) but when it comes to original pieces of work it all kind of falls apart.

I am not saying Snyder is a bad director, no, a bit unremarkable but not Whedon's level, especially when it comes to working with an ensemble cast. (Firefly, Dollhouse, Buffy, Angel, Avengers, Toy Story etc)