SkylineRKR
Member
There are actually homebrew ports of Quake 1 and Quake 2 on DC via Windows CE. They play really well, despite being directly ported by one guy.
And ofcourse, Quake 3 on DC did fare well too.
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Was the Dreamcast actually powerful at launch? Or the beneficiary of no competition?
- Thread starter Romulus
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There are actually homebrew ports of Quake 1 and Quake 2 on DC via Windows CE. They play really well, despite being directly ported by one guy.
And ofcourse, Quake 3 on DC did fare well too.
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
How is this thread still going do people like the DC that much???
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Some hate it as much, casually blurting Model 3 is on par with Naomi 2 yet demanding harder proof (than at least 2 ports with no real cuts, Virtual-On 2 & Virtua Striker 2, just because SR2 wasn't great & VF3/FV2 had cuts, ignoring the higher res and games beyond them) of DC not being way lesser.
You cut off 70% of a post to put it out of context then pretend it lacks context, nice. To make it easy for you, there are no Model 3 ports of Naomi 2 games or similar games on par with what Naomi 2 showcased, like Virtua Striker 3, Initial D, Virtua Fighter 4 and more to back your claim yet you keep taking serious issue like your life depends on it with folks putting DC on par with Model 3 even though it does have ace ports (like Virtual-On 2 & Virtua Striker 2) and other games on par (DOA2 vs even a step 2 fighter, Virtua Tennis 2, Crazy Taxi 2, Marine/Bass Fishing 2, F355, HOTD2 & much more).nkarafo said:
Tl;dr, in one case you delusionally went all, I'm sure Model 3 could easily do Naomi 2 games, with no evidence whatsoever, in the other you went lalalala Dreamcast did do Model 3 games and Model 3 quality if not better games but I'll dismiss all of it and just talk about whenever it didn't lalala
I never said that but strawman arguments and ad hominem about fanboys or whatever is all you've got, again and again and again, like a miserable little troll that thinks its own feelings are facts and if reality goes against them, well, tough luck for reality, red is green, black is white and down is up...nkarafo said:
Emergency Call Ambulance isn't like L.A. Riders & Crazy Taxi 2 (which has fancy/carved buildings & landmarks, interiors, arches, bridges, rooftops, the underground & more but ok, focus on the boxier assets ignoring all decorations like little fenced gardens or tents) so you're the only troll comparing.nkarafo said:
One of those is nothing like the others (by design, not platform/quality/whatever you wanna disagree with or ignore like higher resolution) beyond its similar aesthetics, play the games you cite. It's not an open map, it has 4 tracks and trades the usually way higher racing game fidelity for on screen chaos. If anything, Daytona USA on the Dreamcast is much more similar since it also has often fairly wide tracks with up to 40 AI cars meaning plenty of potential action on screen even though it doesn't have the traffic and event systems of Emergency Call Ambulance (still it looks better as a whole).
It shouldn't be hard to grasp but, back to lalalala land for you I guess. Next you'll be comparing Fighting Vipers 2 characters to Crazy Taxi 2 pedestrians to prove DC is way lesser but no, it's the other people who are fanboys because when backed to a corner you can't but vaguely concede DC rocked.
You praise Model 3's later steps but Naomi came the same year as its last (and most games of the previous, Naomi 2 just 2 years later like later steps) yet you bash it for not being a jump like the step 1 was? No, not all arcades were so superior, plenty were just souped up consoles, like Namco's
Hell, even older systems like Saturn were on par in the 90s (since not every 2D board was as capable as the CPS2 or Neo Geo either, or every game fully utilized them in ways the consoles couldn't keep up) and had many nearly arcade perfect ports already, gone were the days of huge downgrades.
Pioneering classics like Daytona USA, Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2 reigned supreme long past their prime (and sequels on Model 3), arcades weren't just about the best graphics but engaging game experiences like any platform, hence CPS2 lasted a decade and Neo Geo well over that long itself.
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Fat Frog
I advertised for Google Stadia
...
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Randall365
Member
There were plenty of people who saw them, decided they were a waste of money (or did not have the funds at the time) and didn’t buy one. Call it non-buyer’s remorse.
nkarafo
Member
LOL, how does claiming Model 3 is on par with Naomi 2 = Hating on DC?
My main issue was always Sega going cheap and instead of a Model 4 they went with the cheap Naomi 1, which at best is on par with the earliest steps of Model 3 (and even that i doubt, personally). And that was the beginning of the end for the arcades IMO because arcades were always about the flashy graphics you couldn't have at home.
If anything i'm "hating" on Naomi, not DC. DC was too good for a home system in 1998 and if you read my first posts i even agree with the premise of the topic, i also voted "Yes". But no, i'm not going to agree it's on par with the PS2 or the (later steps) of Model 3 because i'm not a fanboy.
Edit: As for the Crazy Taxi 2 comparison, Emergency Anbulance is still more advanced looking. Crazy Taxi still has completely boxy buildings with no other geometry detail other than the occasional door frame while the Model 3 game has much more complex and detailed buildings with carved details instead of just textures.
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Arcades were declining at the time, it makes absolute sense to go for cheaper hardware with the Naomi rather then doing a Model 4, both Sega and the arcade operators likely wanted to go in that direction. I mean the Hikaru didn’t do too well from what I remember.
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Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Huh, cool that the engine could do that but I don't think they used it at all in any of the levels/cut scenes? Could have had some weird lighting for the final stage which seems a bit bland otherwise (no multiple levels like the others and stuff). Same for the other console ports, instead of the uber blur.
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I experienced magic when I first saw Sonic on Dreamcast running in real life. Before that, it had been Mario 64 that last gave me that "magic" feeling. I have not had it since, however. The closest I've come was when I was playing Astro's Playroom on PS5 and was blown away by the DualSense features and the graphics, I did consider that a magic moment and I hope the new game coming out this year can replicate that (especially if it is PS5 Pro enhanced). Another close time where I felt magic (but not for graphics alone) was God of War 2018 and Ragnarok. Rare games such as those come along so infrequently that we all need to cherish them whenever they do. I think that "magic" is the primary reason we all play video games and for people like me the never ending quest is to find the next game that tickles that magic in such a way that you know you are experiencing something truly special.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Idk if this is real or fake stuff. Far Nation or Farnation was some kind of unseen MMO like PSO by Sega that was cancelled and this dude claims to have access to a build that with certain cheats can be booted in offline mode or whatever. It looks nice/doable by DC considering no enemies/npcs etc...
There's a mouse cursor visible in the first video but it's not claimed to be running on real hw anyway for that to be proof it's fake, plus debug/cheat menus/functions etc. are involved anyway so...
There's a mouse cursor visible in the first video but it's not claimed to be running on real hw anyway for that to be proof it's fake, plus debug/cheat menus/functions etc. are involved anyway so...
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Esppiral
Member
This looks super bad you are not doing any good posting that tbh.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
It's interesting. The character models seem more complex than PSO's and the environments aren't bad (with some quite okay interiors) considering they aren't populated with what a finished MMO could entail. It could be a prototype for a FFXI/DQX style game on the Dreamcast and that would rock if you ask me. I've posted 2D games and charming visually lesser titles alongside the system's very best everyone except trolls acknowledge, obviously I'll discuss whatever I want rather than just the cream of the crop sweeping the rest under the rug. It's a cancelled unseen DC game (or a fake), chill
Farnation Dreamcast | SEGA Dreamcast Info
www.sega-dreamcast-info-games-preservation.com
Btw, google for "original Everquest" media if you wanna take a look at what the actual #1 then next generation, pioneering and groundbreaking PC MMORPG leading the way for what became the king/killer of the genre years later was actually like back then, before dissing a canned game like this.
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Xaeroxcore666
Member
Did you guys already see this?
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64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
ourple car and 15 fps come on
Xaeroxcore666
Member
This is made by ONE SINGLE PERSON in a couple of days reverse engineering Renderware and using RE 3...Now go wonder what actual Rockstar would had achieved. Also Frogbull and other people on Discord are helping with the project so, we´ll see on the future who laugh last.
Daniel Thomas MacInnes
GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
Yes! Dreamcast lives!
There’s something specia about the Dreamcast experience that has never been equalled or surpassed. It’s the final stand for arcade videogames, and while there have been bright moments since 2001 and countless advances, there’s a certain itch that only Sega can hit.
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Maybe. It's impressive but this person also had the advantage of 20+ years including all the documentation of the dreamcast system and how to optimally use it. Rockstar didnt have something like that in 1999
I like the dreamcast too btw, don't get me twisted here. It's just that the PS2 move made sense. It's just an undoubtedly a more powerful system in every aspect
Feel like the sammy acquisition fucked up their spirit in so many ways. They managed to keep up their arcade spirits in the early-mid 2000s but then when the merger happened, many of the best IPs were shelved and games progressively got less relevant outside of Sonic.
Persona, Creative Assembly and Yakuza was probably a life saver to that company.
I hope that sega games push changes things but interest is sort of waning. Sucks, they're the potential man of game companies these days but a force to be reckoned with back then
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Hardly, it's a proof of concept made in a couple of days. It's way too early to jump to those kinds of conclusions, like the 3D renderer wasn't even working at all a week ago.
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Xaeroxcore666
Member
More good stuff!
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Already sounds on par with the PS2 in at least one way then, impressive!
🤡 said:
Nobody said it's so, stop using strawman arguments as your only points, you're just pointing out how ports can have favorable circumstances vs creating new games when they can also have unfavorable circumstances as perfectly explained in your quoted post you mistranslate into bs nkarafotalknkaraclown said:
Some (homebrew or not) devs maxing a system (usually older systems with their most complex games just a few lines of code and a few MB in size) doesn't mean the same or other devs can max another of a later generation (that saw the rise of AAA development as we know it). No homebrew DC game/engine so far does anything close to its best games (ncluding the MGS2 demo) so how you suddenly believe a PC version of GTAIII ported by amateurs will bring out the system's best just because they don't need to make all GTAIII content from scratch (which is actually a negative as making the engine and the content from scratch tuned to its strengths would for sure yield better results than bulk converting content made for another system, but of course they don't have Rockstar's AAA manpower, that's the only reason it's convenient that the content exists already) is beyond logic
If it's so easy I guess we'll see other devs take the PC versions of all GTA games and backport them to PS2 from scratch on their own and get 2x better results than Rockstar did back then (rather than take the PS2 versions as they are and tweak them here and there with subjectively positive results).
Might as well say GTAIII can be ported to 32X because Doom was improved. Or ignore that even in your subjective opinion much of what you cite as outdoing retail games through a platform's lifetime are in fact from the ground up games tuned to their strengths, not ports. Portal 64 isn't a port
A page ago trolls claimed GTAIII or any open world sandbox of its ilk is too much for DC and the technical director of Rockstar who said it's doable doesn't know what he's talking about/only spoke of an early version that was nothing like it evolved, now they nod of course it's doable but not SA
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Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
This GTA 3 will show how weak the Dreamcast is.
Myths are made to fall but I know you will say that if Rockstar's professional developers made the port it would be better, imagining that phrases like that will add the missing power.
Myths are made to fall but I know you will say that if Rockstar's professional developers made the port it would be better, imagining that phrases like that will add the missing power.
Esppiral
Member
The Dreamcast is less powerful than the ps2, no question, but if you think it is fair to compare a game built from a company that invest millions to develop a game for the ground up for the most successful console ever focusing in it's strengths to a community effort made with homebrew tools you have a problem.
Well, at least we are moving from the it’s “impossible” to “it will show how weak it is” stage. Who knows maybe someday we’ll see an FSR tech demo on PS2
The early signs are good, seems like memory is very close to the stock 16mb , at around 20mb, even with 16bpp textures and models straight from the PC version, which were more demanding than the PS2’s. When they start bulk converting assets into DC friendly formats we may actually start seeing good progress and early signs of how it actually performs on real hardware.
Need to get a GDemu for my Dreamcast to try doom 64, but I heard that it can lead to overheating on Pal DCs…
The early signs are good, seems like memory is very close to the stock 16mb , at around 20mb, even with 16bpp textures and models straight from the PC version, which were more demanding than the PS2’s. When they start bulk converting assets into DC friendly formats we may actually start seeing good progress and early signs of how it actually performs on real hardware.
Need to get a GDemu for my Dreamcast to try doom 64, but I heard that it can lead to overheating on Pal DCs…
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nkarafo
Member
That's not even 15fps. 15fps is a playable frame rate, this is more like 5 or 6.
That's not how it works though.
Porting isn't the same as creating a new game. All those millions you are talking about to develop the game were spend creating a huge virtual city with lots of assets, a lot of voice acting, etc. Porting the game to a different platform doesn't mean they have to make all that from scratch. A lot of porting jobs in the past were made by much smaller teams, even single individuals. It's not the same kind of job at all.
And you also underestimate the possibilities of modern homebrew development. In many cases the most impressive graphical showcases for a system is a demo or game made by some fan decades after the system was dead. Just look at all those fancy games and hacks on 8bit home computers and consoles, for instance. Look at the N64 development and how one single person (Kaze) has managed to squeeze the system more that any other dev in the past with his Mario 64 games that push more polygons the N64 ever managed at high frame rates. Or how another person ported the first few areas of the original Portal on the same system and the game looks and runs better than 90% of N64 games. Or how a bunch of people took the 32X port of DOOM and improved it so much that if it was released like that back in the day it would be the best port.
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cireza
Member
What documentation ? People use official documentation from back then most of the time anyway. What do you expect ? Some kind of legendary manuscript that gets you 10 times more power out of the console lol ? Official docs from back then were perfectly fine and all you needed. I develop on Master System and Game Gear and there is nothing like "modern docs" that change the hardware. I just use the official docs from back then.
This was done by a single guy in a few days. Of course a team of professionals paid full time at the job would get GTA3 to run on Dreamcast, as if there was any doubt to have about this. We already have examples of games streaming in real time a city, where is the actual technical challenge already ?
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Xaeroxcore666
Member
Difference between you and them, is they are actually doing something to prove the point DC could handle it. You are just talkin, as usual. Time will prove who were right and who needs to talk less.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
GTA3 was always meant to be multiplat, it's just that apparently SIE got a timed exclusivity deal for it so PS2 development took precedent after a certain point.
I'm not necessarily sure GTA3 was every developed from the ground-up with PS2 in mind, considering other open-world games of the era like True Crime, Driver 3, The Getaway and Jak II all looked much better and ran at least as well if not better than GTA3 as well. Even if arguably, those games didn't do open-world the same way GTA3 did (i.e less feature-rich).
Well, at least we are moving from the it’s “impossible” to “it will show how weak it is” stage. Who knows maybe someday we’ll see an FSR tech demo on PS2
The early signs are good, seems like memory is very close to the stock 16mb , at around 20mb, even with 16bpp textures and models straight from the PC version, which were more demanding than the PS2’s. When they start bulk converting assets into DC friendly formats we may actually start seeing good progress and early signs of how it actually performs on real hardware.
Need to get a GDemu for my Dreamcast to try doom 64, but I heard that it can lead to overheating on Pal DCs…
I don't think Dreamcast would struggle to run a game like GTA3 if it can run Shenmue 2 relatively well. They'd have to find a way around the streaming bandwidth limitation from disc (GD-ROM is just inferior to DVD-ROM in every aspect there), and find ways to work with Dreamcast's smaller VRAM budget, but I don't think GTA3 was pushing the envelope in character polygon counts or lightning systems, for sure.
Now a Dreamcast version of something like GTA San Andreas? That might be on the more impossible side of things, regardless optimizations. Unless large swathes of content are just cut and certain physics & collision systems are heavily simplified (not to mention, less NPC traffic & simultaneous data models).
Yeah memory alone would probably rule out SA, let alone thinking about IO speed and disk size. Probably why we didn’t get something like SA stories too.
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Esppiral
Member
I think you mean ram and not VRAM, the Dreamcast has double the VRAM of the ps2, 8 mb on Dreamcast VS 4 MB on PS2.
SkylineRKR
Member
GTA 3 was simply canceled because the DC sold poor:
San Andreas would be a different story, it was extremely ambitious and a late PS2 game.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Yeah, you're right. My bad; I haven't read up deep on the specs of these systems in some time now.
Nice that there's official confirmation (in a way). IIRC there was a rumor way back in the day that SEGA got offered timed exclusivity for GTA3 but turned it down because when they (SOA) were approached about it, they already knew about SOJ's plans to exit the console market as a platform holder in early 2001.
So they didn't want GTA3 to get tied up to a console that was already on its way out. If that rumor had any substance, it's just crazy to think about what could've been if SOA took up that offer. Might've been able to actually save Dreamcast in the West.
Xaeroxcore666
Member
Everyday more advacements! At this pace, in a few months game will be complete and with minor issues on DC! You guys doing God's work!
Fat Frog
I advertised for Google Stadia
Yup
Only 11 days between these 2 versions...
How many amateurs are working on it ?
YOU PC BRO?!
Gold Member
cireza
Member
Completed it in Nightmare. You had mazes on VMU after completing each difficulty level, they were absolutely huge and took a ton of time to solve lol.
Hudo
Member
That's actually cool.
Yep and it featured online play…
Cross play with PC too, although only for a limited amount of maps and a specific PC patch.
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