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Was the Dreamcast actually powerful at launch? Or the beneficiary of no competition?
- Thread starter Romulus
- Start date
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Been there, done that, you've added nothing, only got triggered & resorted to ad hominem and strawman arguments like just now telling esppiral he thinks gta3 maxed out the ps2 or whatever, which he never claimed, but you only have points when you argue with imaginary bs on par with yours
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nkarafo
Member
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Yeah, that really doesn't say it maxed out the PS2, learn to read. Still, how do you think it could have been done better with that budget/tools/dev time/studio? Don't assume anything out of your ass though, just show us how it could be improved, at the time. It wasn't the best it could be because..? They were lazy? Wasting money instead of working? Focused on other systems more? Or what? I think it was the postal studio doing the hookers and coke thing, not Rockstar, but maybe you know more. Sure though, you can laughably attempt to misinterpret that quote as GTAIII maxing out the PS2 when we know it didn't because sequels (and other games) did more, carry on twisting the point he made comparing an AAA studio with 3 amateurs of unknown skill you previously piled on siding with folks mocking them over their < 15 fps result completely ignoring the circumstances and how early the project was/is and now try to change that into how of course they can probably maybe achieve a good result and how you've always had that opinion (though you previously pretended Dreamcast can't even do a track based game like Emergency Call Ambulance comparing it to actual open area games like Crazy Taxi 2 and how to you they subjectively didn't look quite as good despite the gulf in game complexity but I guess now far more complex and demanding games that indeed suffer in performance even in their lead platforms like GTAIII are within its grasp, nice)
But sure, any acclaimed and praised AAA effort (rather than some uninvolved lesser party's later port everyone agrees was shoddy) only has reasons to not perform great, but 3 amateurs only have reasons to bring the best result within a few weeks so it's worthwhile to pile on early footage, lol? Esppiral never argues "against homebrew" and does his own too you fool, you're pretending that because Kaze optimized Mario 64's engine (in years) that is nothing special and it means every AAA ever (Mario 64 probably cost a fraction of what GTAIII did) can be improved the same by anyone
Everyone knows there were bad ports in the past like say, Saturn Doom (that nobody calls AAA anyway, unlike GTAIII), just because some retail things were bad doesn't mean all of them are bad and just because some homebrew devs are special and became famous for doing special things doesn't mean it's the norm. There are more devs you don't know. Duh. Maybe you can count how many PC games haven't been ported to Saturn or 32x to help you understand this fact rather than start listing all the famous homebrewers who became famous exactly because results like theirs aren't the norm/expected but special cases nobody else achieved (also, Doom is a unique case - and a way simpler 2D game - the whole gaming world devoted to exploring inside out, the 32X result is a culmination of decades of work, but hey, what can I expect from folks calling Portal 64 a port)
Now you pretend you are homebrew's white knight against those underestimating them even though those are the same people impressed by the early results you mocked, piling on with other commenters over its 15 fps you were quick to correct that it's actually less and unplayable (but haven't commented since it's been vastly improved), get real. You white knight them by trying to claim every project can be Kaze's Mario 64 or Doom 32x (or even older less complex games like homebrewers "maxing" some 8bit computer with a few lines of code and some kb of assets and 20 years of game design knowledge since they were contemporary), completely ignoring the gulf in complexity and inherited knowledge and tools of the games and/or systems so you basically put down all the homebrew devs who don't achieve similar results as shitty even if such would be an impossible task for their specific scenario, so spare us the defender routine, nobody put them down more than you and those you respond positively to vs those you try to argue against here. People just spoke facts, that 3 dudes putting some hours in who may stop at any time for any reason aren't a renowned pioneering AAA studio putting years in, and you respond with bs about Doom 32x which is neither an AAA game despite how famous it became nor was it ported by an AAA studio's full force (or the original dev of the game), so you basically just spew irrelevant and off topic bs, as usual.
Sure you didn't outright say DC can't do GTAIII, you just laugh reacted to folks previously saying it could support such complex sandbox games, providing examples of existing suitable engines that could be modified for such and quoting Rockstar's then tech director doing the same, how different that you found all that funny (and liked posts from Geometric Crusher and his ludicrous claims about what PS1 ports maxed the DC) even though as it turns out it's all true and you apparently always believed it's all true and that the game could even be to the same standard as on PS2, okay then
But sure, any acclaimed and praised AAA effort (rather than some uninvolved lesser party's later port everyone agrees was shoddy) only has reasons to not perform great, but 3 amateurs only have reasons to bring the best result within a few weeks so it's worthwhile to pile on early footage, lol? Esppiral never argues "against homebrew" and does his own too you fool, you're pretending that because Kaze optimized Mario 64's engine (in years) that is nothing special and it means every AAA ever (Mario 64 probably cost a fraction of what GTAIII did) can be improved the same by anyone
Everyone knows there were bad ports in the past like say, Saturn Doom (that nobody calls AAA anyway, unlike GTAIII), just because some retail things were bad doesn't mean all of them are bad and just because some homebrew devs are special and became famous for doing special things doesn't mean it's the norm. There are more devs you don't know. Duh. Maybe you can count how many PC games haven't been ported to Saturn or 32x to help you understand this fact rather than start listing all the famous homebrewers who became famous exactly because results like theirs aren't the norm/expected but special cases nobody else achieved (also, Doom is a unique case - and a way simpler 2D game - the whole gaming world devoted to exploring inside out, the 32X result is a culmination of decades of work, but hey, what can I expect from folks calling Portal 64 a port)
Now you pretend you are homebrew's white knight against those underestimating them even though those are the same people impressed by the early results you mocked, piling on with other commenters over its 15 fps you were quick to correct that it's actually less and unplayable (but haven't commented since it's been vastly improved), get real. You white knight them by trying to claim every project can be Kaze's Mario 64 or Doom 32x (or even older less complex games like homebrewers "maxing" some 8bit computer with a few lines of code and some kb of assets and 20 years of game design knowledge since they were contemporary), completely ignoring the gulf in complexity and inherited knowledge and tools of the games and/or systems so you basically put down all the homebrew devs who don't achieve similar results as shitty even if such would be an impossible task for their specific scenario, so spare us the defender routine, nobody put them down more than you and those you respond positively to vs those you try to argue against here. People just spoke facts, that 3 dudes putting some hours in who may stop at any time for any reason aren't a renowned pioneering AAA studio putting years in, and you respond with bs about Doom 32x which is neither an AAA game despite how famous it became nor was it ported by an AAA studio's full force (or the original dev of the game), so you basically just spew irrelevant and off topic bs, as usual.
Sure you didn't outright say DC can't do GTAIII, you just laugh reacted to folks previously saying it could support such complex sandbox games, providing examples of existing suitable engines that could be modified for such and quoting Rockstar's then tech director doing the same, how different that you found all that funny (and liked posts from Geometric Crusher and his ludicrous claims about what PS1 ports maxed the DC) even though as it turns out it's all true and you apparently always believed it's all true and that the game could even be to the same standard as on PS2, okay then
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nkarafo
Member
It wasn't the best it could be because the console was still new at the time GTA 3 was being made and the devs didn't yet have the experience they needed to push it.
espirral's argument against homebrew projects is that GTA 3 was an expensive game where the devs got paid, so that means a homebrew project would never have the chance to be as good or something like that. Which is easily proven false if you follow modern homebrew projects. This is ignored and never argued, other than your usual laughing emoji response of course.
And that's not even counting the fact that this DC port is just that, a port. Porting is not the same as making a brand new game from scratch, which is what GTA 3 on the PS2 was. Porting has it's own difficulties but it doesn't require the same amount of recourses, which is why a brilliant developer or two can port a huge game like this from one system to another, without getting paid.
espirral's argument against homebrew projects is that GTA 3 was an expensive game where the devs got paid, so that means a homebrew project would never have the chance to be as good or something like that. Which is easily proven false if you follow modern homebrew projects. This is ignored and never argued, other than your usual laughing emoji response of course.
And that's not even counting the fact that this DC port is just that, a port. Porting is not the same as making a brand new game from scratch, which is what GTA 3 on the PS2 was. Porting has it's own difficulties but it doesn't require the same amount of recourses, which is why a brilliant developer or two can port a huge game like this from one system to another, without getting paid.
nkarafo
Member
I just saw this edit so allow me to answer that.
Yes, GTA 3 is a more complex game than ECA, but it's also a game that struggles to maintain 30fps on PS2.
Yes, i don't think ECA is possible on the DC, without compromises. With some geometry simplifications? At a lower frame rate? Sure. But as is, with the same gfx and performance as the Model 3 game? No.
Do i think GTA 3 is possible on the DC? Sure and i never said otherwise. With the same graphics and performance as the PS2 game though? Honestly can't tell.
It's worth noting that unlike most high end homebrew efforts in other consoles, like the already mentioned Kaze Mario 64 romhacks or Portal 64, this is not using leaked official tools for its development. If they were forced to use libdragon instead their performance wouldn't even be on the same ballpark, like James Lambert immediately discarded that idea when Portal 64 was asked to be cancelled by Valve.
KallistiOS, for all it's merits, is unprepared for a contemporary AAA game, add that the challenge of shoving the PC (not console) codebase of Renderware into the Dreamcast, which I'm not even sure had a RW game not made by Criterion, and this is far far from a simple porting job.
I can't think of many modern homebrew ports that you can compare directly to this one, shoving a codebase designed for high end hardware with unofficial homebrew tools. But hey the good news is that this port also is directly improving KallistiOS.
KallistiOS, for all it's merits, is unprepared for a contemporary AAA game, add that the challenge of shoving the PC (not console) codebase of Renderware into the Dreamcast, which I'm not even sure had a RW game not made by Criterion, and this is far far from a simple porting job.
I can't think of many modern homebrew ports that you can compare directly to this one, shoving a codebase designed for high end hardware with unofficial homebrew tools. But hey the good news is that this port also is directly improving KallistiOS.
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Lysandros
Member
Why would an early attempt game originally made for a notoriously difficult system to develop for running in some altered form on Dreamcast 20 years later would make anyone's head explode? Is the game PS2's highest technical achievement or something?
Dreamcast is a cleary less capable system as to computational power, bandwidth, fill rate etc. But this doesn't mean that it lacks any advantages against PS2 like a more straightforward/streamlined design.
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nkarafo
Member
Because it seems the Sega fans of this forum are still stuck in their schoolyard console wars years. It's like time stopped for them when Sega announced they would forfeit and they are still kids in 2001.
SkylineRKR
Member
Same hardware, homebrew vs retail but 30 years later. The difference here is ridiculous. But there are many examples.
Esppiral
Member
Or Maybe because it was the prime example from fanboys to demonstrate that this game wouldn't be possible in any shape and form, and shit on the system yet here we are, that doesn't mean we think the console is more powerful than it is, but its capabilities were heavily underrated.
Also you seem a bit triggered, everything ok?
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cireza
Member
Doom released at launch, it was a rushed port. 30 years later, dedicated people took A LOT of time to understand the flaws and fix them.
But 30 years later, the 32X is still running the exact same VDP, the two same SH2 with their instructions sets, and the same amount of RAM. Magic didn't happen. Only people taking the time to put the effort to make something better.
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nkarafo
Member
Exactly. This is a prime example of why we shouldn't underestimate homebrew development because it's not a paid job by professional devs.
Paid jobs have many burdens. Deadlines is probably the heaviest. Pretty much any paid project has a deadline. Not having deadlines is one of homebrew's biggest advantages. You said the magic word: "Rushed". How many retail games were rushed? Had cut content or being unoptimized because of that? But you don't hear that word in the homebrew circles.
There are way too many examples of homebrew ports/hack/patch/source engines being the best way to play many games out there.
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cireza
Member
Sure, but it doesn't make the 32X or Dreamcast any more powerful.
nkarafo
Member
Not sure where that comes from but yeah, naturally.
BlackTron
Member
I don't remember who said this old quote, "game's are never finished, they escape". Virtually all games are lesser than they could have been without deadlines and limited resources.
But this should apply much more for a game like Doom, a rushed port in early 3D, than even a challenging title to make like GTA3 which had an opportunity to gestate properly and came out after they felt it was adequately finished. I think it's sad that we're reaching for the example of a rushed launch game on Frankenstein hardware being updated by fans later as some sort of proof that modern fan secret sauce should be expected to help any port at the same efficiency. Come on...
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
A few pages back DC was maxed by some PS1 ports or random games as folks suggesting it could do better (even showing games where it did do way better, but they somehow didn't count) were mocked, now every game can improve at least 3x just like Kaze's Mario 64, it's all the same shit!!!11!
I guess the inferior and nonexistent Model 3 ports on DC could be virtually 1:1 (like some of the Model 3 ports that "don't count", lol) if not improved (beyond existing resolution improvements) after all, including Emergency Call Ambulance, every released game is as unoptimized as Mario 64!
All scenarios are just like Kaze's Mario 64 or similar famous examples (out of thousands and thousands of others). According to this logic, DC actually has even more untapped potential than fans have been trying to say due to its short life & other reasons previously adamantly refuted
Waiting for the reasons why this apparent rule doesn't actually apply to DC but only other systems and their games so DC was indeed maxed out as previously claimed by ReVolt's PS1 port vs its countless more impressive titles and untapped potential on top of that of course, there always are some.
And that under the guise of defending poor homebrew devs (after mocking their early "unplayable" results), not putting down every developer who doesn't achieve results similar to Kaze or other famous examples (almost none of which are for in comparison modern AAA projects as complex as this) as if every game is the same, no, it's being a homebrew white knight against us, the evil homebrew nay sayers who praised the early work on this project and knew it will keep improving by all they had to say and show rather than be quick to pile on them about performance and glitches, lol
I guess the inferior and nonexistent Model 3 ports on DC could be virtually 1:1 (like some of the Model 3 ports that "don't count", lol) if not improved (beyond existing resolution improvements) after all, including Emergency Call Ambulance, every released game is as unoptimized as Mario 64!
All scenarios are just like Kaze's Mario 64 or similar famous examples (out of thousands and thousands of others). According to this logic, DC actually has even more untapped potential than fans have been trying to say due to its short life & other reasons previously adamantly refuted
Waiting for the reasons why this apparent rule doesn't actually apply to DC but only other systems and their games so DC was indeed maxed out as previously claimed by ReVolt's PS1 port vs its countless more impressive titles and untapped potential on top of that of course, there always are some.
And that under the guise of defending poor homebrew devs (after mocking their early "unplayable" results), not putting down every developer who doesn't achieve results similar to Kaze or other famous examples (almost none of which are for in comparison modern AAA projects as complex as this) as if every game is the same, no, it's being a homebrew white knight against us, the evil homebrew nay sayers who praised the early work on this project and knew it will keep improving by all they had to say and show rather than be quick to pile on them about performance and glitches, lol
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Unknown?
Member
This is getting ridiculous. I think this is great and will be cool to see how far it goes and I definitely think if DC lasted another three or four years it would have a lot better looking games that make the launch games look bad. Look at the jump just from Sonic Adventure to Adventure 2.
But.... Some are using this to "get back" at people making claims that don't matter which makes it more pathetic because while this is cool, it's old. I wouldn't gloat if someone got Splinter Cell on PS2 looking more like the Xbox version or God of War 3 on 360.
But.... Some are using this to "get back" at people making claims that don't matter which makes it more pathetic because while this is cool, it's old. I wouldn't gloat if someone got Splinter Cell on PS2 looking more like the Xbox version or God of War 3 on 360.
BlackTron
Member
It's not about DC exceeding PS2, it's about the narrative at that time that GTA3 skipped DC because it can't run it. Some PS2 warriors feel threatened at the idea of letting go of this narrative therefore we have the improvements made to Doom on 32x of all games shoved in our faces. Really, no matter how well they get the port running, this is something they can always go with so they're "safe".
nkarafo
Member
You completely missed the mark.
DOOM 32X was a single example i used as an argument against underestimating the homebrew scene VS official/paid projects. It has nothing to do with DC not being able to handle GTA3 or whatever other words you want to put in my mouth. I personally never said the DC wouldn't be able to handle that game.
I don't even like the PS2 that much... I was more of a Gamecube fan during that gen.
Walter Matthau
Member
The Dreamcast came out less than two and a half years after the N64 in Japan and was certainly a big step up from that. The games had what at the time would have been considered arcade quality graphics. When the PS2 came out a year later, the initial set of launch games didn't look drastically better than Dreamcast but the graphics gap started to become more pronounced a short time after as games like Devil May Cry, Final Fantasy X, and Metal Gear Solid 2 started coming out. This was also around the time that the Gamecube and Xbox were coming around with graphical showpieces like Rogue Leader and Halo so it didn't take very long for Dreamcast games to look a little basic by comparison.
The jumps in graphical fidelity were insane back then, especially if you were someone who frequented arcades. In 1993 your jaw is dropping over Virtua Fighter and less than three years later Virtua Fighter 3 is out and the original is laughable by comparison. Changes from year to year back then were more apparent than they are now so it's not surprising that a game like Resident Evil Code Veronica looks aged compared to something like Resident Evil 4.
Not being a tech wiz, my guess is the Dreamcast was appropriately powerful for the time it was released. It represented a generational leap over the 3DO to N64 generation of consoles while lagging a bit behind the consoles that would come out in the following few years. It's unfortunate that we'll never really know what late gen Dreamcast games could have looked like because Sega pulled the plug less than a year and a half after its North American launch.
The jumps in graphical fidelity were insane back then, especially if you were someone who frequented arcades. In 1993 your jaw is dropping over Virtua Fighter and less than three years later Virtua Fighter 3 is out and the original is laughable by comparison. Changes from year to year back then were more apparent than they are now so it's not surprising that a game like Resident Evil Code Veronica looks aged compared to something like Resident Evil 4.
Not being a tech wiz, my guess is the Dreamcast was appropriately powerful for the time it was released. It represented a generational leap over the 3DO to N64 generation of consoles while lagging a bit behind the consoles that would come out in the following few years. It's unfortunate that we'll never really know what late gen Dreamcast games could have looked like because Sega pulled the plug less than a year and a half after its North American launch.
Fat Frog
I advertised for Google Stadia
BlackTron
Member
Crazy to think all my memories playing new DC games are compressed into a year and a half it almost feels like a whole gen. I even had to get a second DC because the GD drive died after PSO dropped. Burned the candle hot and fast probably my peak era of console gaming.
Fat Frog
I advertised for Google Stadia
GTA3 reduced to 400MB on DC...
Esppiral
Yuji Naka has a message for you and the Dreamcast GTA3 team:
"Not bad, pathetic gaijins. But with my superior japanese IQ i could have reduced it to 250MB and ported Vice City on a single CD rom back then "
Do you accept the challenge ?
Next ports Vice City, VF4 and Orta ?
Esppiral
Yuji Naka has a message for you and the Dreamcast GTA3 team:
"Not bad, pathetic gaijins. But with my superior japanese IQ i could have reduced it to 250MB and ported Vice City on a single CD rom back then "
Do you accept the challenge ?
Next ports Vice City, VF4 and Orta ?
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BlackTron
Member
GTA3 reduced to 400MB on DC...
Yuji Naka has a message for you and the Dreamcast GTA3 team:
"Not bad, pathetic gaijins. But with my superior japanese IQ i could have reduced it to 250MB and ported Vice City on a single CD rom back then "
Do you accept the challenge ?
Next ports Vice City, VF4 and Orta ?
With all the free time he has in jail, he could get it down to 80MB if he really wanted, easy.
DeVeAn
Member
The Dreamcast community will make it happen:
GTA 3, VF4, Orta, Outrun 2...
Seen that. Pretty neat!
We are loosing PS2 fanboys.
The irony is that the only data that wasn’t replicated multiple times was audio data. Gta3.img was the one with multiple copies.
Fat Frog
I advertised for Google Stadia
I forgot that Dreamcast US price was so low 
.
Wikipedia
"To increase SegaNet's appeal in the US, Sega dropped the price of the Dreamcast to $149 (compared to the PS2's US launch price of $299) "
Imagine a Dreamcast + GTA 3 reprogrammed by the magic Yuji Naka team for $200, it would have been a great (only)option for millions of modest families in the west...
.Wikipedia
"To increase SegaNet's appeal in the US, Sega dropped the price of the Dreamcast to $149 (compared to the PS2's US launch price of $299) "
Imagine a Dreamcast + GTA 3 reprogrammed by the magic Yuji Naka team for $200, it would have been a great (only)option for millions of modest families in the west...
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Ps2 seemed gimped or worse in some aspects while dreamcast seemed better in other things like reosultion
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Heh, Doom 64 of all things might finally put the Dreamcast bump mapping question to rest. Hopefully some artists will take up the task of converting all the textures properly for it, though even without that it's probably the definitive version of the game just because of the dynamic lighting anyway.
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Xaeroxcore666
Member
GTA 3 on development, DOOM 64 available and also a version with Vertex Lighting on Normal Mapping on the works.... And most of their beloved games coming back to modern systems and getting again praise, like its 2000:
After 23 years it´s legacy lives on and it´s still getting newer gems. FACTS that speak louder than any chit chat.
GOOD TIMES TO BE ON DREAMCAST SIDE!!!
After 23 years it´s legacy lives on and it´s still getting newer gems. FACTS that speak louder than any chit chat.
GOOD TIMES TO BE ON DREAMCAST SIDE!!!
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RetroGamingUK
Member
The Dreamcast community will make it happen
GTA 3, VF4, Orta, Outrun 2...
I do often wonder how VF4 would have worked out on the Dreamcast.
Ignoring the less than ideal port of VF3 and using DOA2 as a base I think it would have been decent. Cuts likely will have had to have been made to snow on Lion’s stage and the aquarium on Pai’s stage.
Esppiral
Member
Well, as I lead and designed both Lemans Dreamcast and Transformers Armada PS2 I might be able to shed some new light on the question of this thread and more for all that wonder!?
Transformers Armada is INSANE on ps2 so Le Mans is on Dreamcast, you guys took advantage of both systems like no other.
Well, as I lead and designed both Lemans Dreamcast and Transformers Armada PS2 I might be able to shed some new light on the question of this thread and more for all that wonder!?
Would always love some dev insight, especially one from an insanely talented team.
12345666
Banned
I skipped school the day Dreamcast was released to go wait in line and get mine. Was only able to afford one game, NFL 2K. I don't know how much power the Dreamcast had relative to PS2 or Gamecube, but compared to PSX and N64 is was a literal game changer in many ways. Having played a lot of Madden and Game Day on PSX, NFL 2K made those games look more than a single generation out of date.
Xaeroxcore666
Member
WOW!!! I have couple of questions!!Well, as I lead and designed both Lemans Dreamcast and Transformers Armada PS2 I might be able to shed some new light on the question of this thread and more for all that wonder!?
1. How you were able to push DC further than most developers, incluiding Sega itself with Le Mans?
2. How close to truth is Internet myth that Le Mans reachs 5 million polygons per second on DC?
3. Everytime i play Le Mans, to this day, i think how cool would have been a F1 game with that graphic engine on Dreamcast...Probably it would have been the greatest F1 game on the entire catalog...You sort of did that with Grand Prix Challenge for PS2, but i´m not sure if that game run on Le Mans engine, question is...how possible would have been Grand Prix Challenge on DC?
4. What do you think about the GTA III Project on DC?
Finally, thank you and the entire Infogrames Melbourne House for Le Mans and Looney Tunes Space Race, those games brought great moments and then memories for me and my sister back in our teenager days! Cheers from Colombia!
BlackTron
Member
Well, as I lead and designed both Lemans Dreamcast and Transformers Armada PS2 I might be able to shed some new light on the question of this thread and more for all that wonder!?
And this guy was sitting in the unapproved accounts for how long??!!
Thanks for all the kind words, folks, we did our very best 
The Dreamcast was a really very powerful console at launch! It was a superbly designed and balanced system, and here's why!
We did a lot of work building optimized high end PC development focused on the best 3DFX Voodoo GPU's before Dreamcast released - Dethkarz and GP500. The Dreamcast wasn't just an order of magnitude more powerful than PS1 and N64, it was generally significantly more performant for 3D graphics than even the highest end PC of the day when it launched in 1997.
PC's of the era didn't yet have hardware T&L but the Dreamcast's SH4 had the basis of hardware T&L with an optimized hardware matrix transform instruction that allowed it to perform the calculations required for 3D at a massively accelerated rate compared to any other platform on the market. The PC would have to wait two years until 1999 to have the first hardware T&L.
Combined with the SH4 the Dreamcast's GPU was really outstanding! Thanks to its unique tile-based rendering it provided essentially infinite opaque polygon fill rate. Every other system of the time had the problem of limited fill rate, limiting performance in high resolution + high depth complexity scenes. The DC was the first console to totally eliminate this issue with opaque polygons. Although it did still have the restriction of 100M pixels / sec for non-opaque, that was still quite a bit and enough for many things (even if nowhere near PS2 level in that regard!). PowerVR based GPU's were of course also available for PC, but they weren't backed up with the transform performance of the SH4!
Compared to other consoles, both prior and after it, this GPU also provided exceptional image quality. All shading calculations were done in full 24-bit colour (on the tile) resulting in smoother gradients and shading compared to all other 16-bit colour rendering systems of the time. There was enough performance to enable anisotropic filtering (used in Lemans), and of course for the first time in a console hardware texture compression that with its unprecedented for console amount of VRAM allowed enormous rich high-resolution textures. It was also for years the only system that could properly render any type of fully translucent models due to its tile-based hardware sorting. The icing on the cake was Sega's unique deinterlacing hardware that provided a rock-solid 640x480 flicker free image on interlaced CRT's (similar approach to their Model 2 & 3 arcade machines).
The Dreamcast sound hardware was also an absolute beast, but I'll save that for another day lol.
In a way Dreamcast also started the trend that every future console GPU (after PS2) would be based on PC GPU architecture - putting high image quality first beyond the cost saving and performance 'optimizations' that were often used in all prior machines at the expense of image quality. Really it was the first home game machine to provide beautiful 3D graphics where the very best still stand the test of time!
The Dreamcast was a really very powerful console at launch! It was a superbly designed and balanced system, and here's why!We did a lot of work building optimized high end PC development focused on the best 3DFX Voodoo GPU's before Dreamcast released - Dethkarz and GP500. The Dreamcast wasn't just an order of magnitude more powerful than PS1 and N64, it was generally significantly more performant for 3D graphics than even the highest end PC of the day when it launched in 1997.
PC's of the era didn't yet have hardware T&L but the Dreamcast's SH4 had the basis of hardware T&L with an optimized hardware matrix transform instruction that allowed it to perform the calculations required for 3D at a massively accelerated rate compared to any other platform on the market. The PC would have to wait two years until 1999 to have the first hardware T&L.
Combined with the SH4 the Dreamcast's GPU was really outstanding! Thanks to its unique tile-based rendering it provided essentially infinite opaque polygon fill rate. Every other system of the time had the problem of limited fill rate, limiting performance in high resolution + high depth complexity scenes. The DC was the first console to totally eliminate this issue with opaque polygons. Although it did still have the restriction of 100M pixels / sec for non-opaque, that was still quite a bit and enough for many things (even if nowhere near PS2 level in that regard!). PowerVR based GPU's were of course also available for PC, but they weren't backed up with the transform performance of the SH4!
Compared to other consoles, both prior and after it, this GPU also provided exceptional image quality. All shading calculations were done in full 24-bit colour (on the tile) resulting in smoother gradients and shading compared to all other 16-bit colour rendering systems of the time. There was enough performance to enable anisotropic filtering (used in Lemans), and of course for the first time in a console hardware texture compression that with its unprecedented for console amount of VRAM allowed enormous rich high-resolution textures. It was also for years the only system that could properly render any type of fully translucent models due to its tile-based hardware sorting. The icing on the cake was Sega's unique deinterlacing hardware that provided a rock-solid 640x480 flicker free image on interlaced CRT's (similar approach to their Model 2 & 3 arcade machines).
The Dreamcast sound hardware was also an absolute beast, but I'll save that for another day lol.
In a way Dreamcast also started the trend that every future console GPU (after PS2) would be based on PC GPU architecture - putting high image quality first beyond the cost saving and performance 'optimizations' that were often used in all prior machines at the expense of image quality. Really it was the first home game machine to provide beautiful 3D graphics where the very best still stand the test of time!
Hey Xaerox,
Thanks for the questions!
1. We build Lemans from the ground up specifically and only for the Dreamcast, the rendering engine, physics simulation, assets, all of it. A bit of a work of passion really and I think the approach was much like how Sega itself might build a first party game. I actually brought the game to Sega Japan and they were extremely surprised about some of the things the game was doing! They took me around all of the Sega AM groups to get their feedback and actually wanted to publish it worldwide as a 1st party Sega title ;-)
2. It's perhaps a myth for the final shipping version of the game! The game uses a sustained 50,000 polygons per frame + effects at 30FPS. It renders a pretty constant load balanced 25,000 for cars and 25,000 for the circuit per frame. So that's really 1.5M polygons per second, call it close to 2 with all effects lol. However, the graphics engine is very optimized and can do 4 million perhaps 5 million polygons per second! Lemans had the unique problem of having 25 cars on track at the same time. Every car has the same sophisticated physics simulation as the player car, as well as an AI driver and associated audio - the races are authentic, and all cars behave with the same physics characteristics as the player has. This uses a lot of CPU resources, compromising how much of the CPU can be dedicated to 3D transforms and feeding the GPU with vertices! There is an unreleased early version of the game that we showed at E3 that has one finished track and 8 finished cars on track that runs with the same polygon count at a sustained 60fps! In that version with 8 cars on track it does 50,000 polygons / frame at 60FPS = 3M polygons / second.
3. We would love to have made Grand Prix Challenge for Dreamcast as well. It uses a similar in-house engine, but this time optimized ground up for PS2. The Dreamcast could run it at 30FPS with some changes. GPC uses 2-3 times the polygon counts on PS2 at what looks like double the frame rate. However, it is an illusion and is cheating! For the longest time GPC was stuck at 30FPS on PS2, however late in development we discovered a secret that literally doubles the apparent frame rate! Essentially, we are doing something similar to DLSS3 on PS2 and I'm amazed it's taken this long for something like DLSS3 to appear! GPC runs at 30FPS, however it generates the next frame an in in between interpolated image from the prior frame to deliver 60FPS in a 30FPS game
Transformers Armada uses the same trick and in hindsight it might have been possible to do that on a Dreamcast as well! In any case if GPC were ever made for Dreamcast it would have less polygons and better image quality than the PS2 game.4. It's awesome to see people still trying to do things like on Dreamcast! If the graphics engine and assets were rebuilt from the ground up for Dreamcast there is no reason you couldn't do a pretty cool version of GTA III for it. However, given the original game uses Renderware that ran quite badly on PS2 and is very slow in first place it'll be a challenge to make it run beautifully on Dreamcast. Good luck with it though
Cheers to you in Colombia!
eNT1TY
Member
Oh damn i may be late to the party in singing praises but both of those games are among my favorites for each respective platform and both demonstrated a level of polish a cut above most of their contemporaries. Your work is appreciated, much love!Well, as I lead and designed both Lemans Dreamcast and Transformers Armada PS2 I might be able to shed some new light on the question of this thread and more for all that wonder!?
Esppiral
Member
Grande Prix Challenge is another game I've allways said it looks amazing on PS2, and about the framerate of the game I allways thought there was something "rare" going on like one of those interlaced 30 FPS video that look like 60 FPS depending on the deinterlacing method, you guys are super talented.Hey Xaerox,
Thanks for the questions!
1. We build Lemans from the ground up specifically and only for the Dreamcast, the rendering engine, physics simulation, assets, all of it. A bit of a work of passion really and I think the approach was much like how Sega itself might build a first party game. I actually brought the game to Sega Japan and they were extremely surprised about some of the things the game was doing! They took me around all of the Sega AM groups to get their feedback and actually wanted to publish it worldwide as a 1st party Sega title ;-)
2. It's perhaps a myth for the final shipping version of the game! The game uses a sustained 50,000 polygons per frame + effects at 30FPS. It renders a pretty constant load balanced 25,000 for cars and 25,000 for the circuit per frame. So that's really 1.5M polygons per second, call it close to 2 with all effects lol. However, the graphics engine is very optimized and can do 4 million perhaps 5 million polygons per second! Lemans had the unique problem of having 25 cars on track at the same time. Every car has the same sophisticated physics simulation as the player car, as well as an AI driver and associated audio - the races are authentic, and all cars behave with the same physics characteristics as the player has. This uses a lot of CPU resources, compromising how much of the CPU can be dedicated to 3D transforms and feeding the GPU with vertices! There is an unreleased early version of the game that we showed at E3 that has one finished track and 8 finished cars on track that runs with the same polygon count at a sustained 60fps! In that version with 8 cars on track it does 50,000 polygons / frame at 60FPS = 3M polygons / second.
3. We would love to have made Grand Prix Challenge for Dreamcast as well. It uses a similar in-house engine, but this time optimized ground up for PS2. The Dreamcast could run it at 30FPS with some changes. GPC uses 2-3 times the polygon counts on PS2 at what looks like double the frame rate. However, it is an illusion and is cheating! For the longest time GPC was stuck at 30FPS on PS2, however late in development we discovered a secret that literally doubles the apparent frame rate! Essentially, we are doing something similar to DLSS3 on PS2 and I'm amazed it's taken this long for something like DLSS3 to appear! GPC runs at 30FPS, however it generates the next frame an in in between interpolated image from the prior frame to deliver 60FPS in a 30FPS game
4. It's awesome to see people still trying to do things like on Dreamcast! If the graphics engine and assets were rebuilt from the ground up for Dreamcast there is no reason you couldn't do a pretty cool version of GTA III for it. However, given the original game uses Renderware that ran quite badly on PS2 and is very slow in first place it'll be a challenge to make it run beautifully on Dreamcast. Good luck with it though
Cheers to you in Colombia!
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