Pretty much my thoughts on it as well.
Looks like Fargo had a major misstep with that social idea though. Donations seemed like they pretty much stopped after that update. Hopefully he can recover from this. More money is always better.
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Wasteland 2 Kickstarter project by inXile entertainment [Ended, $3 Million Funded]
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Pretty much my thoughts on it as well.
Looks like Fargo had a major misstep with that social idea though. Donations seemed like they pretty much stopped after that update. Hopefully he can recover from this. More money is always better.
A Black Falcon
Member
I'm very skeptical of "social" elements as well, and probably wouldn't turn them on, but as far as money goes, they are up to over $8,000 on the Paypal thing now.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
They were at almost the same amount before the update. He should really squash the social elements controversy, just promise something else.
Lol. He should do what Schafer did and promise social features at 1.9 million, and then the promise to drop them if it hits 2 million.
Haha, did he seriously do this? Man this guy is awesome.
No, Schafer promised to add RTS elements into the game at 1.9 million, and take them out at 2 million, or something like that.
MightyHedgehog
Member
There you go and I'm glad for it since this sort of thing needs to nipped in the bud or we start to significantly move away from the old-school RPG zone they need to stay in for this to be what they promise. If they're going to talk about proposed features, then they need to start sharing real info about the game on the forums they set up instead of just messing around at the periphery, kicking around extremely extraneous shit like social features. Hey, Fargo, your social features were taken care of with the creation of the message board.
IMO It seems more like a lot of kneejerk bashing by people who see the word social and only think facebook/twitter-bullshit even though that's clearly not what he's talking about.
Sentenza
Member
I can easily agree on that, someone is clearly overreacting.
And yet, I still think that "social" features implemented in any way, shape or measure are completely pointless for this kind of production.
DiscoJer
Member
I honestly think it's worse.
Something like Facebook or Twitter integration just tells other people what you've done. Basically trying to do viral marketing for the game.
Here, say you just found a secret underground base from before the war that has never been opened before. You figure out how to get in, and yet there are these notes everywhere, from people who have been there before you.
Or you sneak into a temple of a cult. Again, notes everywhere telling you what to avoid or not.
At best, it's sort of like that scene in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure in the Police Station where they left the keys. At worst, it's someone playing pranks.
Either way, since it's not a time travel movie (or game), it breaks immersion to gain knowledge from people further ahead in the game (or time)
In something like Demon's Soul, where the areas you are exploring are supposed to be places that other adventurers have gone or are going, then yes, it makes sense for them to leave notes. If this were a Bard's Tale game, a dungeon crawler, I could go with the idea. But in Wasteland?
Maybe if they limit it to the open world.
On a tangent, there's another gaming Kickstarter project in need of funds, with just over a week to go. It's a retrogaming book called High Score, with the author looking to create a 3rd edition, in case anyone here is interested.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/230165553/game-history-book-high-score-3rd-edition
(I can't start a thread for some reason, so maybe someone else here might wish to do so.)
.
Back on topic, I hope the cover art for Wasteland 2 goes with a similar vibe to the original C64 image. That was awesome!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/230165553/game-history-book-high-score-3rd-edition
(I can't start a thread for some reason, so maybe someone else here might wish to do so.)
.
Back on topic, I hope the cover art for Wasteland 2 goes with a similar vibe to the original C64 image. That was awesome!
MightyHedgehog
Member
I'm buying this game because it's very much a scenario-driven RPG that changes as I make choices. That takes a ton of design work and talent to make work. Throwing in random shit that spoils or misleads players in a game like this is just adding nothing but noise to experience, especially since WL1 (and I'm assuming WL2) relays most of its information about the environment, important people, and items/clues all via text. I don't want my experience building from that text to be cross-polluted with random stupid shit notes everywhere to read alongside, like reading scribblings in between lines and paragraphs in a secondhand book. If it's handled in-game as an option to 'hear' typed messages left by others via the radio function, I could see it being more seamlessly-integrated and possibly useful to all instead of it being a toggle where it's on all the time or not. A blinking light on the radio icon or similar to the Geiger counter of the first game could alert players to messages left by others on the current tile. Or even as a thing of note in an environment description for players to initiate reading that note.
Still, WL1 depended on a single, static answers for many passwords and conversation keywords to progress. Leaving answers behind robs people of investing in the game's adventure elements and circumventing events, possibly leaving them without enough information or key items needed later. That's a challenge to their design and iteration to prevent breaking sequences that might strand players or, at least, put more frustration in their path than is desired. I suppose they could generate passwords and keywords dynamically from a large list. They could also try to filter the answers but then it would turn into a game of charade and the notes system would be all about shared tactics for highly-scripted encounters and a means of disseminating detailed instructions for discovered exploits. A limited word list could be used, but it would probably unwieldy and not allowing for enough description to be useful beyond spoiling simpler stuff ahead. Perhaps, they could generate more results for each successive leg of a mission or scenario based on player decisions to create more than superficially-unique situations, possibly mitigating the cheating that could go on with such a networked notes system. Whatever the case, it sounds pretty useless for this type of experience.
Still, WL1 depended on a single, static answers for many passwords and conversation keywords to progress. Leaving answers behind robs people of investing in the game's adventure elements and circumventing events, possibly leaving them without enough information or key items needed later. That's a challenge to their design and iteration to prevent breaking sequences that might strand players or, at least, put more frustration in their path than is desired. I suppose they could generate passwords and keywords dynamically from a large list. They could also try to filter the answers but then it would turn into a game of charade and the notes system would be all about shared tactics for highly-scripted encounters and a means of disseminating detailed instructions for discovered exploits. A limited word list could be used, but it would probably unwieldy and not allowing for enough description to be useful beyond spoiling simpler stuff ahead. Perhaps, they could generate more results for each successive leg of a mission or scenario based on player decisions to create more than superficially-unique situations, possibly mitigating the cheating that could go on with such a networked notes system. Whatever the case, it sounds pretty useless for this type of experience.
MightyHedgehog
Member
With as much time as they have, absolutely they should be talking about what breaking that barrier could bring. They should start by talking more directly about the game since it's very likely nailed down in ways they haven't shared so far. At least, start talking about the scenario they created with Jason Anderson and how it fits with WL1.
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
If they hi 2 mill I just want them to flesh out there quests. (Maybe save some cash for FREE post game DLC for all players.)
Pachterballs
Banned
better be a way to disable these awful social features. Um, its a SP CRPG why are people leaving clues for you in the world.
YUCK
YUCK
Power Glove
Member
There is. BF said it would be optional.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Yeah, I'd much rather they focus on modding tools as opposed to "social" features.
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
captmorgan
Banned
Honest question, what's the difference between "listening to your audience" and "market testing?" I don`t see any difference but the former seems to get a lot of hate on this site.
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
'market testing' would be trying to widen the game up to as many people as possible, 'listening to your audience' is making sure to not piss off the people who are already on board and have given you money in the past.
MightyHedgehog
Member
If they actually listened to their audience, assuming they know who their audience actually is, things like KickStarter wouldn't be finding its place as an alternate funding source to the corporate publisher oligarchy.
WorstUsernameEver
Member
This latest update prompted me to write my first post on their forum, so if nothing else, it did something for me
I'm against it anyway. I loved the "social" (I wouldn't use that term, but that's what Fargo used) elements in Demon's and Dark Souls but I don't think they have the same place into a sequel to Wasteland. It's something that the community is pretty strongly against, and announcing it in the middle of the Kickstarter drive as what they will do when/if they reach the $2M milestone was a pretty bad move.
P.S. : I would love to see those kind of features in a less action-y/more traditional dungeon crawler though.
I'm against it anyway. I loved the "social" (I wouldn't use that term, but that's what Fargo used) elements in Demon's and Dark Souls but I don't think they have the same place into a sequel to Wasteland. It's something that the community is pretty strongly against, and announcing it in the middle of the Kickstarter drive as what they will do when/if they reach the $2M milestone was a pretty bad move.
P.S. : I would love to see those kind of features in a less action-y/more traditional dungeon crawler though.
This latest update prompted me to write my first post on their forum, so if nothing else, it did something for me
I'm against it anyway. I loved the "social" (I wouldn't use that term, but that's what Fargo used) elements in Demon's and Dark Souls but I don't think they have the same place into a sequel to Wasteland. It's something that the community is pretty strongly against, and announcing it in the middle of the Kickstarter drive as what they will do when/if they reach the $2M milestone was a pretty bad move.
P.S. : I would love to see those kind of features in a less action-y/more traditional dungeon crawler though.
I think you nailed it on the last point. The sort of social elements he suggests would work great in a modern take of oldschool dungeon crawlers. It would be pretty awesome if you can actually find skeletons or remains of dead parties from failed dungeon runs of other players. That sort of thing would fit perfectly in the genre.
In Wasteland though? Not so much.
Pachterballs
Banned
http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=917
socialisation thread. I already posted of course.
socialisation thread. I already posted of course.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
That they'd even consider shoehorning notes/multiplayer/facebook shite into the game is worrying. The game you've dreamt of making for donkeys years and THAT'S what you come up with?
Yeah. Hopefully the idea is promptly dropped. All anyone wants is more content.
Can't believe the backlash they're getting over the social thing.
I personally like the idea of Demon's Souls-like stuff on the game (I admit, though, that I'm a Fallout player and never played Wasteland, so I'm just talking out of general openness to ideas), and I get that "social" is a loaded term, but really, does anything about the project hint that it'll be WastelandVille?
I agree, in retrospective, that it's a waste of time and money to implement optional and complex (building a networking system just so you can find and leave notes) stuff, that isn't in line with the general direction of the game, but I find it very depressing that people are so adamant to innovation, or even considering anything out of the ordinary.
I personally like the idea of Demon's Souls-like stuff on the game (I admit, though, that I'm a Fallout player and never played Wasteland, so I'm just talking out of general openness to ideas), and I get that "social" is a loaded term, but really, does anything about the project hint that it'll be WastelandVille?
I agree, in retrospective, that it's a waste of time and money to implement optional and complex (building a networking system just so you can find and leave notes) stuff, that isn't in line with the general direction of the game, but I find it very depressing that people are so adamant to innovation, or even considering anything out of the ordinary.
MightyHedgehog
Member
The problem is that they talk up classic old school RPG, the game this one is the sequel to is just that. Then after a trickle of mostly vague information distributed across several interviews at different sites, there's this update (finally!) talking about something that's being considered for the new game. Oh, but this thing is way the hell out of left field and tends to not make any sense as a thing to discuss with backers, or potential backers, with so very little info on the ground to begin with. It's just not what backers of an old school RPG want to hear right now. They want to hear about the damned game itself and not some accoutrement. Maybe they're frightened to show off what they're thinking right now as it might cause some to pull pledges or others to hesitate in their pledging. Whatever is going on, it's a little disconcerting to see how little in the way of design info they've settled on is being shared. At least, commission the producers of the videos they've put up so far, to create a nice introduction to Wasteland 1 and the genre which this sequel will attempt to breathe some life into.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
social meh, when this thing comes out i'm locking myself in a cellar with my computer and the only thing that'll emerge will be a pallid, sullen eyed, almost nosferatu looking individual.
If they want to piss about with multi, they can do it in wasteland 3 and with their own money gleamed from this games profits.
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
On of the things I like about isometric RPGS (thinking of FO since I never played WL) is the focus put on writing, a lot of the detail of the worlds and people is put over to the player via text, allowing people to add there words into someone else world could take something away from it, like playing Skyrim while some random guy can skype in and talk about his balls and how much weed he's took.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I actually wonder now if the project will hit 2mil. The incentive isn't there for the people who've been funding it thus far. He should simply have promised more content and more complexity and more choices and threw in some concept art. They'd be cruising. Instead people are now panicking, fairly or unfairly, about what might happen at 2mil.
Eh, they'll recover. Fargo will apologize and this will be old news in 3-4 days.
Wow they actually deleted this thread...
This. Exactly. It's a problem of wording, not of concept. There's no mention of Twitter or Facebook anywhere in the update, it even says the game's not gonna have full-fledged multiplayer, just that they're considering some sort of unintrusive multiplayer interaction ala Demon's Souls, and now they've even clarified that whatever the social thing is, if it ends up being something at all, is gonna be optional.
I think this is a great idea, and yeah, while I don't think this will make a big dent on the overall situation, they might do themselves a great of good by releasing something more solid this week.
WorstUsernameEver
Member
Because there was already another 27 (last time I checked) pages long one that was filled with pretty much the same kind of content and having two was pointless. No conspiracy there. (I think they were merged btw, not deleted.)
It feels like they completely didn't expect even really hitting 1.5 million, much less 2 million, so they really just don't know what to do with the rest of the money.
1.5 million was originally the ideal amount, and they weren't even sure if they'd hit 1 million. With 1.5 million they promised extra content and ports, so with 2 million, they don't seem to know what to do on top of that. I'm making an assumption but I think the whole Demon's Souls-style multiplayer thing is something they thought up fairly quickly when they saw it may be possible for them to hit 2 million. I don't know that they have any idea what to actually do with the rest of the money.
It would be easy to say "add more content to the world" or whatnot but they had probably planned on what sort of extra content they'd add with 500k above the original million figure, but not necessarily even more than that.
1.5 million was originally the ideal amount, and they weren't even sure if they'd hit 1 million. With 1.5 million they promised extra content and ports, so with 2 million, they don't seem to know what to do on top of that. I'm making an assumption but I think the whole Demon's Souls-style multiplayer thing is something they thought up fairly quickly when they saw it may be possible for them to hit 2 million. I don't know that they have any idea what to actually do with the rest of the money.
It would be easy to say "add more content to the world" or whatnot but they had probably planned on what sort of extra content they'd add with 500k above the original million figure, but not necessarily even more than that.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I think if you read "We're looking at implementing social features" the way he intended it, as "The more money you're able to give, the more empowered we will be to expand the scope of the project and make it feel more robust", it would be a good motivator.
I realize that "if he meant that, he should have just said it", but I think he was probably looking for a specific example of something a polished, robust game would have that a smaller game wouldn't, and wanted to avoid saying "more quests!!! bigger world!!!!" or something vague like that.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Are we actually going to shit on the game that they want to make just because it includes something people don't like?
"How dare they have a dream that is different from my version of their dream!"
or worse yet
"How dare they want to make money off their dream!"
Pachterballs
Banned
that's a very different topic though. The other one was about social features that bryan tweeted about. I didn't start the other topic but I can't believe they deleted the thread.
Yeah, I think they'll be in a much better place to do this sort of thing when they give some more concrete details on exactly what they've got planned. Then they can be much more specific with what they plan to do with the money rather than offer these fairly nebulous ideas that risk being misinterpreted.
I do think if they actually want to hit 2 million, they need to start divulging some information relatively soon.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
How do you know it's feature creep?
Pachterballs
Banned
they should just do an update that shows artwork + team at inxile now post crossing the $$$ barrier to fuel excitement.
From Twitter; seems like BF+Inxile is busy updating bardstale still and doing misc stuff so who knows. He's been pimping a updated version of BT+sales.
because they're now pimping that they'll be adding this in; which is pushing what would otherwise not be in the game; so yes, feature creep. Linux/Mac ports; sure - it fundamentally doesn't change the game - adding the social stuff; it a) makes no sense in the game b) would have to be coded in on the grassroot level...
I can't say I personally care for it.