It's a pure profit venture. The GAME is funded. If they sell one copy, it's profitable.
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Wasteland 2 Kickstarter project by inXile entertainment [Ended, $3 Million Funded]
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That's silly. You can't build a future on one copy. These ventures need to be successful in terms of sales.
indigo-cyclops
Member
It will probably sell more than one. The success of the game doesn't have to be held to some arbrirtay sales number because they've already paid for development.
Well, then I reckon that the developer can market it and try to make a profit. But not with game funds.
What they get woth game funds is word.of mouth from backers. Anything else is up to them if they want to risk it.
Future is always an issue. You don't kickstart a franchise and do nothing with it. Yes, they will have enough money to develop the game. The issue is the months after that, if the game bombs, then the studio is in a bad spot.
Same with DFA, Wasteland or Shadowrun. You want to build a franchise, not a "one game and forget about it".
You can't build and maintain a studio with the kickstarter model.
MightyHedgehog
Member
IAWTP
The fans get their games and stuff, the developer can figure out how to sell it on their own, with the costs of production completely covered by KS backers. Just making the game profitable from day one allows it to do as well as is reasonable and because DD is the target marketplace, it will simply be a matter of internet-related promotions, which are bound to be much less costly than all things to do with a physical release.
We're not responsible for keeping them afloat. We enabled them to make the game. If THEY want to do a franchise then THEY need to market it. Kickstarter is used to get game development funds for one project.
The reason it was Kickstarted in the first place is because it's expected to bomb.
GOG has opened up the market for older-style games pretty effectively. I doubt it'll be a problem.
If the game is good, it will likely sell. You don't see too many quality titles flying under-the-radar these days, and Wasteland 2 and particularly Double Fine Adventure already have their names out there to some degree as financially the two most popular games to come out of the crowdsourcing model.
I think the point of all of this is just giving developers the chance of having some breathing air for 1.5 years, since we're basically paying their salaries for that time.
They probably won't be working full time on these games. I imagine both Tim Schafer and Brian Fargo will likely spend some time planning more games, pitching ideas to publishers (well, BF's likely not to be doing this
), building their own tools, etc. on the mean time.
It pleases me tremendously to be able to do my small part to help these guys stay afloat. C'mon Obs!
They probably won't be working full time on these games. I imagine both Tim Schafer and Brian Fargo will likely spend some time planning more games, pitching ideas to publishers (well, BF's likely not to be doing this
), building their own tools, etc. on the mean time.It pleases me tremendously to be able to do my small part to help these guys stay afloat. C'mon Obs!
Exactly correct. We're not paying for games 1, 2 and 3. We're paying for game 1.I think the point of all of this is just giving developers the chance of having some breathing air for 1.5 years, since we're basically paying their salaries for that time.
They probably won't be working full time on these games. I imagine both Tim Schafer and Brian Fargo will likely spend some time planning more games, pitching ideas to publishers (well, BF's likely not to be doing this
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
I do see the name Kickstarter as being well chosen, a way of giving a artificially large boost at the beginning in hopes that success would lead to a self reliance.
Not to say I wouldn't back a KS form these people again (so long as they deliver), it's just not really in keeping in the spirit of things.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
... are you fucking crazy?
nobody spends all that time, good will, and money expecting their product not to sell.
What the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.
Believe it or not, video games are not all about the art.
Exactly.
The "Kick" in Kickstarter does not stand for "kicks and giggles".
By publishers, derpy. The reasons fans are funding it is because these games weren't generating the profits that publishers wanted anymore.
Otherwise they would be using publisher money.
It's not really that these games don't sell. Look at Fallout New Vegas & Dragon Age Origins, which are probably the closest to old school CPRGs we've gotten this gen. Both sold well. But it was the publishers who chose that Dragon Age II should be the streamlined shit it became.
These games do still have the potential to sell, publishers just want devs to make Gears of War RPGs, which have the potential to draw in the casual crowd whereas more old school RPGs are harder to get into for inexperienced gamers.
It's not because they weren't generating the money. It's because no one knew if they would!
It was a risky business proposition with no guarantee of return.
Well, then it's worth it for the developers to invest some of their money in marketing but not money specifically given to them for the making of the game. We made it possible to MAKE the game. It's on BF and crew to sell it if they want to make extra profits.
Sounds like it's be worth it though!
Actually, it's not risky. It's a game that 'only' costs 900k to make. 400k on DF's case. No one likes losing money but this is spare change for big publishers and it could've helped them by giving the publisher positive rep by supporting old-school, hardcore genres and actually selling well (since these games belong to mostly untapped markets).
They probably know this but publishers just don't give a fuck unless you're talking 7 digit numbers.
As long as a positive rep doesn't translate into increased sales for core franchises and stable/increased stock prices, most big publishers don't give a crap about positive rep.
And yeah, a 600k investement and a 1mil return is almost useless for the number of guys you have working on that specific project. Before Kickstarter, it was a risk that wasn't worth taking by any of the big players.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I'd be content if WL2 simply breaks DFA's total by minus a million.
So basically I'll be happy if it hits over 2,336,371k.
Currently at: $2.28k.
So basically I'll be happy if it hits over 2,336,371k.
Currently at: $2.28k.
Very well said. I don't see the kickstarter as developer charity. It's project funding, and as such has pretty clear restrictions on what it should be spent on.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
... nobody is saying that is what it should be. If that is how you are reading these posts, then I apologize. All I am saying is that people do not spend all this time, money, and energy on an investment that they expect to bomb financially. This model is not going to chance jack shit if that is what is going to happen. And besides the "OOOOOOhhhhh, change the indussssstry" angle... it's still a product you intend to sell.
These games are not going to be $10-$15 on release.
DiscoJer
Member
It really depends on how their next project will be financed.
Will they try to Kickstart that? Or will they fund it from the profits from this game? Or trying to find backing from a publisher?
Personally, I see kickstarting as not charity, but simply pre-ordering a game. And by kickstarting a project as opposed to using their own money, they know if there is a market for the game they want to make.
But is kickstarter a sustainable model? A lot of the funding comes from the higher tiers and I suspect the novelty of those will wear off. And what happens when a major project ends up a disaster? While I would hope without publisher meddling that is less likely, it still seems to be inevitable. It's probably going to have a chilling effect on future projects.
Or maybe not. It's uncharted territory, really.
Will they try to Kickstart that? Or will they fund it from the profits from this game? Or trying to find backing from a publisher?
Personally, I see kickstarting as not charity, but simply pre-ordering a game. And by kickstarting a project as opposed to using their own money, they know if there is a market for the game they want to make.
But is kickstarter a sustainable model? A lot of the funding comes from the higher tiers and I suspect the novelty of those will wear off. And what happens when a major project ends up a disaster? While I would hope without publisher meddling that is less likely, it still seems to be inevitable. It's probably going to have a chilling effect on future projects.
Or maybe not. It's uncharted territory, really.
So do I. But people around here will argue black and blue that it's not a preorder despite the fact it is exactly the same as traditional preorders (pay for something in advance of receiving it).
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Well, that's because it's not a traditional pre-order, and at the same time, it's not a pre-order. But it also is a pre-order. It's a gray area.
It doesn't make a difference in the end. Both a traditional preorder and a Kickstarter backing are paying for future potential. Because that's what it is right up to the point the Kickstarter is fully funded and the end date for funding has passed.
From a consumer standpoint the two are somewhat similar, but from the developers' there is an obvious significant difference - Kickstarter is actually funding their games and paying their salaries for that project. This also ends up having impact on whether or not the consumer even wants to shell out the money, as the notion that you are in some way helping to get these games made is meaningful. Without people to fund these games through crowdsourcing, they likely wouldn't exist.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Just broke 2.3k.
StoppedInTracks
Member
Nailed it.
They are extremely lucky that the brand name and devs pedigree is such strong because the whole kickstarter affair done by Fargo is pretty pathetic.
This sort of thing isn't his strong suit, like I said. But god forbid he get someone to help him with that whole public image thing. That's like paying for Wasteland 2 and 3 or something, or paying for them to sell the game, not make the game. EviLore's synopsis was the reason why I said he needs to get someone who knows what they're doing to manage communications and outreach, which would include Kickstarter, fan videos, setting up proper interviews, all of that. They don't need some flack in a suit who doesn't know when or how to shut up, and costs a ton of money for something that's actually somewhat simple. Just someone to freelance for them and help them out, for a modest fee. So you don't have gamers on game boards referring to your well intentioned, yet amateurish(auteurish) efforts as "pathetic".
Don't really see what's pathetic about it. The only fail they've had was that "social" thing but that was quickly corrected. Otherwise they've clearly outlined what they are going to do, have had a decent number of updates, interviews & such that have given them some more visibility (and it hasn't just been "MORE DEPTH" without explaining what that depth is), given people plenty of good reasons to keep giving after the original goal(s) were achieved, and Fargo did the whole Kicking it forward nitiative, which is a pretty big & awesome thing.
So they don't have a graph showing where they are at with the pledges, big deal. That doesn't make the whole thing "pathetic", stop exaggerating. If it had truly been as pathetic as you claim, then they wouldn't have raised this much money.
DiscoJer
Member
Yeah, I think he's done a good job.
He had that first video which was very funny.
He set up the forums. He quickly recruited many members of the original team. He's done interviews with media almost daily. He recruited the guy from Obsidian.
So he hasn't made any more videos besides the first...
What now people be over analyzing his kickstarter campaign? Hell the game is being made and funded more than he originally had anticipated! Isn't that enough? Who cares how shitty his videos or presentation is if you care about that then go buy an Activision or EA game with some marketing budget behind this.
Well, people want the game to be as good as it can get, and the Kickstarter mantra for most devs is: "the more money we raise, the better we can make the game". The correlation doesn't get more direct than this. So I don't blame people wanting the campaign to be as good as it can be - especially if it's done by professionals who have resources.
Personally I don't have too many complaints - the second video wasn't as funny as they probably thought it was, but that's about it.
Sort of yes and sort of no.
Devs don't actually thrive *that* much on profit - they live off funding. They can exist as long as their wages are paid, although profit will allow them to expand.
That said, though, if they don't make a profit from this, I'd expect their next project to need to be kickstarted as well. And the success of *that* Kickstarter will depend on the quality of *this* game and the word of mouth it generates. And if this game is good and generates good word of mouth, you'd hope they'd sell a decent amount of copies and turn a reasonable profit *anyway*.
So it's a bit of a symbiotic relationship. If they don't make a reasonable profit from this, they may have to venture into Kickstarter again for their next title (or back to the publisher model, and I'm not sure they'd relish that!). But that Kickstarter's success would depend on the game's quality, which in turn - you'd hope - would lead to profits anyway.
As I alluded to earlier - and it needs to be phrased *very* carefully to avoid knee-jerk reactions to the term - I think the best 'new thing' they can offer is a *DLC plan*. Make sure it's explicitly labelled as (free!) post-release support, perhaps throw out some ideas for small standalone sidequests that fit into the DLC model.
Pachterballs
Banned
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Because it's indicative of what happens when the Kickstarter Buzz wears off. The only reason he made so much damn money is because he was the first person after Shafer to do it. He came to us with a sob story of a nostalgic game and evil publishers, and we were so drunk on "THIS IS THE NEW SHIT!" that we didn't think to look at it analytically. Sure, getting Avellone on board helped a shit-ton, but that had nothing to do with Fargo's name.
StoppedInTracks
Member
$2.5M is in reach now. Anything more than that? Nobody knows.
Pachterballs
Banned
yes, we've covered this in this thread already - I've even tweeted @ BF a couple of times; suggesting that they do more. But he doesn't seem to be be doing more which is sort of aggravating. The art is nice; but he could have done more. Added a t-shirt tier to add value to the campaign - hell, even the shadowrun KS has a t-shirt. Which is an appealing "reward" for people who support.
The biggest thing he's done to date has been the art+the chris avellon news. That hard copy video is awful and he's been divergent in his attention towards his own KS, what with the lack of interesting updates and videos. I already posted that while I think the kickitforward campaign is nice; its not central to drawing attention to WL2. BF's just done 1 too many
"exclusive" interviews...
Well see what happens as this thing counts down. If he drops the ball, he drops the ball (its way past his 900k KS campaign anyhow). Its now at the 1 week mark. He really needs to amp up the campaigning for funds.
what the hell is this? what sob story? Its a great venture. I'm still commited. He just hasn't sold it very well. And this has A LOT to do with the Brian Fargo name. He got notch + avellon + co to kickstart his campaign at the start. And that razer peripheral guy. People loved interplay.
btw if you guys think KS; is going to sour; wait til ryan payton's thing hits KS later today. Sort of no name; probably a great video... but iOS. YIKES.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
$2,2992,236 with PayPal.
Pach, don't mock my $$$ typos. You will not be spared when the Old Ones rise.
My statement stands. Everyone was running on Jet Fuel when Fargo started this. It's starting to die down, and as a result, people are starting to get critical of campaigns vs. other ones.
You need to run a KS campaign like a political campaign, and so far, Weisman has been beating Fargo in the PR polls.
Pach, don't mock my $$$ typos. You will not be spared when the Old Ones rise.
My statement stands. Everyone was running on Jet Fuel when Fargo started this. It's starting to die down, and as a result, people are starting to get critical of campaigns vs. other ones.
You need to run a KS campaign like a political campaign, and so far, Weisman has been beating Fargo in the PR polls.
I think this characterization of the Wasteland 2 KS campaign being poor is strange. We've seen more updates from WL2 than the DF Kickstarter, with better descriptions of where the money is going. For all the talk about how there should be WL2 t-shirts, DF introduced their t-shirts and big boxes 4 DAYS before the end of the KS!
I'd expect future projects to take from the previous ones and learn. I do think that WL2 benefitted a lot from the experiences of DF's KS, just as later project will learn from this one.
In any case, sure, there are always things that could be done better. The "social" mistake for this project or the mismanaged messaging for Linux support in Shaddowrun. There's been days of people complaining on their comments board about Linux support and there's been no real followup response. But I okay with that! I'd rather be communicating with the developer directly, even if it's not perfect than through a PR prism.
In any case, go go go Wasteland! $2.5M will be easily hit!
I'd expect future projects to take from the previous ones and learn. I do think that WL2 benefitted a lot from the experiences of DF's KS, just as later project will learn from this one.
In any case, sure, there are always things that could be done better. The "social" mistake for this project or the mismanaged messaging for Linux support in Shaddowrun. There's been days of people complaining on their comments board about Linux support and there's been no real followup response. But I okay with that! I'd rather be communicating with the developer directly, even if it's not perfect than through a PR prism.
In any case, go go go Wasteland! $2.5M will be easily hit!
fizzelopeguss
Banned
Nonsense, They've doubled their goal, they've got crpg fans hyped. As fund raisers go this was a massive success.
I've seen enough slick, corpulent, marketing blitzes to last a lifetime, and wasteland 2's hasn't even begun yet...
fizzelopeguss
Banned
Can't think of a better way of turning me off.
Phew, finally been paid after all this time and now I can pledge $50 to this and Banner Saga. Now I can rest easy! Cloth maps is always a go.
P.S. Kickstarters don't officially count against your "trying not to buy anything this year in fear of destroying chances of finishing your backlog" campaign some of us are sticking to this year, do they? Considering most of them won't even be finished until next year at the earliest I assume not, but...
P.S. Kickstarters don't officially count against your "trying not to buy anything this year in fear of destroying chances of finishing your backlog" campaign some of us are sticking to this year, do they? Considering most of them won't even be finished until next year at the earliest I assume not, but...
Takeda Kenshi
blew Staal
So make tons of promises and then under deliver on a massive scale? Perhaps if he never wants to do another KS again.
I take it he's talking about an interview but what does AMA exactly mean?
By the way, other tweets:
The team seems to be taking notice that fans just want stuff.
Capt.Haddock
Member
Ask me anything.
Oh, that's pretty great.