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[M3Freak]

They can GTFO. I'm not buying another PS5 down the road after putting down hundreds for a launch unit. I already had to do that bullshit with the launch PS3 when it decided to die because of shitty build quality and I had to buy a slim. I'm still upset about that!

I'll happily upgrade my 2080 super to a new GPU in a couple of years. I'll happily build myself a new PC this fall after putting together my current one in December of 2017. But, I'm not going to buy another PS5.

Sony peeps are high as a kite if they think a PS5 Pro is a good idea.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

They can GTFO. I'm not buying another PS5 down the road after putting down hundreds for a launch unit. I already had to do that bullshit with the launch PS3 when it decided to die because of shitty build quality and I had to buy a slim. I'm still upset about that!

I'll happily upgrade my 2080 super to a new GPU in a couple of years. I'll happily build myself a new PC this fall after putting together my current one in December of 2017. But, I'm not going to buy another PS5.

Sony peeps are high as a kite if they think a PS5 Pro is a good idea.

Well, I agree. I think PS5 2020 - PS6 2026, with clear, generational leaps in several areas, is fine with me.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

I still have two launch PS4's . I would have gladly paid more at launch for PROs but I had no intention of repurchasing a new machine.

Same with PS5

With the early talk of a possible PS5 PRO I won't buy two launch consoles .. I may not purchase any at all..

 

[Panajev2001a]

I still have two launch PS4's . I would have gladly paid more at launch for PROs but I had no intention of repurchasing a new machine.

Same with PS5

With the early talk of a possible PS5 PRO I won't buy two launch consoles .. I may not purchase any at all..

Especially with how Sony handled PS4 Pro (look at the games they have released and how they work super well on base PS4 at the end of the generation) I am not sure I get the worry not the stance.

 

[anothertech]

Lol it's going to happen. Expect it.

No one is forcing you to buy it. If your pride makes you feel like your bring forced to buy something just because it exists, you need to sort your priorities.

I believe there's therapy for that.

 

[tusharngf]

They can improve RAYTRACING and machine learning in next refreshes. Adding extra CU will also help to get those steady 4k60fps with some checkerboarding technique. XBox is almost 12TF by 2023 they can touch 20TF that will be the norm for high end GPU's. I am more excited about the machine learning features to reduce the burden on GPU side.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

PS5 Pro would need to be no less than 20 TF in 2023 and Xbox Series X2 30 XFLOPs in 2024. But I don't want this.

I'd rather skip mid gens and go straight to a ~50 TF PS6/Future Xbox in 2026 with 48 GB HBM4

 

[Great Hair]

 

[RaySoft]

Who would say no to 72 RDNA 3 CUs clocked at 3.5GHz?

Wich would have been "wasted" on just boosting fps

 

[Rayderism]

My problem is that even if I KNEW a PS5 Pro version was coming, I wouldn't be able to wait a couple of years for that version to release. I'll end up doing the same thing I did this gen.......have the OG, then upgrade to the Pro version once released.

Many gamers are impulsive (I certainly am), you can bet that they'll prey on that impulsiveness, just like they do with MTX's and DLC's and all the other ways they take advantage of gamers these days.

 

[Roman Empire]

If it isn't a substantial boost in performance then don't even bother. I'd understand if it was the case like we had the jump from the OG Xbox One to the One X, but the PS4 to the PRO wasn't that big of a jump, not even mentioning that hardware manufacturing prices won't drop that easily if we want a big of a jump.

 

[ShirAhava]

I expected as much

PS4>PS5

XBOX ONE/S>SERIES X

PS4 PRO>PS5 PRO

XBOX ONE X>SERIES X 2

As a One X owner the Series X does nothing for me but I don't think its for me in the first place I'll wait for the Series X 2 w/ New SSD tech and WIFI 6

 

[MichaelRR1989]

I still think there's only enough room in silicon advancement to make 1 good generational leap beyond PS5/XSX in this decade, for the late 2020s. Expecting 50-60+ TFlops
The impact of which will be much less if there are midgen consoles by 2024 with 25 TFLOPS.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

Guys, do you agree with what I said above, or no do you have a different take on console hardware advancement going forward?

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

2024/2025 seems likely to me. 2026 seems like it would be too late in a seven-year console cycle, and 2023 would be too early, since the gen is pretty much beginning in 2021.

 

[lock2k]

This whole mid-gen refresh thing is turning me off of consoles and it made me consider going the PC route this time.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

On the PC side, I'm willing to wait a few years. I'll go from RTX 2080 Super to one of the high-end Nvidia Hopper GPUs (Hopper = successor to Ampere) cards in late 2022.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I still think there's only enough room in silicon advancement to make 1 good generational leap beyond PS5/XSX in this decade, for the late 2020s. Expecting 50-60+ TFlops
The impact of which will be much less if there are midgen consoles by 2024 with 25 TFLOPS.

In seven years we went from 1.84 TF to 10.275 TF (as one example). Zero chance we're going from that to 50 TF/60 TF in five or even six years.

Yes, architectural changes may bring performance effectively around that number in RDNA2 terms, but the actual, literal numbers will be much lower than that. Similar to how the next-gen systems may "only" be 10 TF and 12 TF, but perform at level of 18 TF and 21 TF of the GCN architecture PS4 and XBO used.

I can imagine PS5's SSD caught Microsoft by surprise and they're already furiously working on upping the speed to 10GB/sec.

Doubt either company "surprised" the other, but MS could just jump ahead altogether and move onto NVRAM-based storage technologies such as Optane, Micron's X-point, MRAM, NRAM etc. They already have several projects experimenting with these technologies or current projects that have a roadmap in testing with NVRAM-based technologies in the future.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

In seven years we went from 1.84 TF to 10.275 TF (as one example). Zero chance we're going from that to 50 TF/60 TF in five or even six years.

Yes, architectural changes may bring performance effectively around that number in RDNA2 terms, but the actual, literal numbers will be much lower than that. Similar to how the next-gen systems may "only" be 10 TF and 12 TF, but perform at level of 18 TF and 21 TF of the GCN architecture PS4 and XBO used.



Doubt either company "surprised" the other, but MS could just jump ahead altogether and move onto NVRAM-based storage technologies such as Optane, Micron's X-point, MRAM, NRAM etc. They already have several projects experimenting with these technologies or current projects that have a roadmap in testing with NVRAM-based technologies in the future.

Thank you for the reply and giving your sense of where we are in terms of silicon advancement and power, and what level of performance won't be possible in 5 years in a $500 console.

I think in 2025, a PS6 could have 30 TFLOPS but not more. Certainly not 50 or 60 TFLOP. RAM would be 32 GB of low-cost HBM3E HBM4 at 1.2 to 1.5 TB/sec,
In 2026, I think 30-40 TFLOPs is possible 32-48 GB of HBM4 with wider bus.
in 2027 I think 40-50 TF is possible 48 GB RAM (HBM, HMC, GDDR7)

 

[Knightime_X]

No reason to get a new GPU now.
Just wait like 5 years.
A console and its refresh will be cheaper.

 

[LouisVuitton]

Hardware upgrades? LOL

DLSS is where it's at

 

[MichaelRR1989]

Again, I would completely prefer that we do not get midgen upgrades in 3-4 years. The generation should not be dramatically shorter than what we've been used to though (7 years, even 8 years from X360 to XBone) though, so like 4-5 years. But 6 years is reasonable for both Microsoft and Sony to start planning for them soon, like in 2021. The PS5 was started in 2015. Before we even heard about PS4 Pro. By the time of the first Wired article in April 2019, PS5 had been in development for roughly 3 and a half years. Sony and Microsoft and do post-mortems with various 1st party teams in 2021.

By mid 2022, Sony will be asking 3rd party devs what they want most out of a future console (more RAM, TBs of memory bandwidth, bigger GPU, etc) while starting the PS6 R&D cycle. By early 2023 Sony should have internal specifications and target a year. (i.e. Holiday 2026) and with AMD, begin design of the semi custom silicon based on AMD's CPU/ GPU/ process node / RAM configurations, etc roadmap. Chiplets, Infinity Fabric (4.0?), 3nm GAAFET, EUV, ultra high bandwidth HBM (maybe GDDR6X and HBM3+), and PCIE6, ETC and 20-30 Gbps SSDs will all be key and so will radically more capable multi bounce ray tracing that's also fast because of the comprehensive hw RT silicon in future versions of RDNA (RDNA 4 or 5). Dev kits could be in Sony 1st party hands by early 2025. Then 3rd party devs in mid-late 2025.

Announce in PS6 in early 2026. Cross-gen peroid will last 1 year with Sony 1st party studios, with their last PS5 projects releasing in 2027, like they did this year in 2020, except it'll be 6-9 months into the new generation. 3rd party games will be cross gen through 2027. By early 2028 the PS5/XSX (and especially Lockhart) are getting long in the tooth. Everything coming out in 2028 is PS6/Xbox NeXXXT. Come on we have to have it.

 

[ZywyPL]

In seven years we went from 1.84 TF to 10.275 TF (as one example). Zero chance we're going from that to 50 TF/60 TF in five or even six years.

Yes, architectural changes may bring performance effectively around that number in RDNA2 terms, but the actual, literal numbers will be much lower than that. Similar to how the next-gen systems may "only" be 10 TF and 12 TF, but perform at level of 18 TF and 21 TF of the GCN architecture PS4 and XBO used.

People forged how awfully underpowered the current consoles were when they launched, those sub-2TF were basically low-end GPUs at the time, so obviously there was a whole deep space left for improvement. The upcoming consoles will be a really nicely balanced machines this time around, but still, you're at the mercy of developers, if they'll keep pushing 30FPS just to reach 4K, 8K etc. then IMO it doesn't matter how much power and features the consoles that will come in the next 4, 6, 8 years will have, because no matter the power, the performance will still be 30FPS.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I doubt it, the PS4 and X1 were considerably weaker when they came out and targeted 1080p which happened to be abandoned just a year or 2 later on.

The new consoles are likely sold at a (bigger) loss. And they support the standard requirements for the upcoming years. They are more powerful, relatively speaking. I don't know what a PS5 Pro would add. Native 8K res would require an entire new generation beyond the upcoming one, certainly not possible over 3 years.

I think this mid-gen upgrade was solely done because of the sudden 4K push. Both Sony and MS were left with systems that couldn't complement the widespread 4K sets in any way.

The first PSVR box for example didn't even allow HDR passthrough. Which I think is because they didn't expect the need for a Pro, HDR etc when this thing was being finalized.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

As I've been saying, I think we would be better served with a 6 year console generation without upgrades. Having PS6 in late 2026 along with a new Xbox, where the specs only have to be a leap beyond the 2020 consoles could be fine. Less hardware confusion going forward. The only upgrades I want to see for PS5 and Xbox Series X are larger SSD sizes.

Ray tracing much more of everything will be the main point of next, next gen consoles. We'll be going from the 2020 consoles, which probably started development in 2015/2016 without any working raytracing hardware from AMD. It seems raytracing acceleration was bolted on with RDNA2, to consoles and silicon that will begin early development in the early this decade until about 2025 when the silicon should be taking shape. All with ray tracing in mind, and by 2026, GPU makers should be on their 4th/5th generation of GPUs with RT hardware, starting with Turing in 2018 and RDNA 2 in 2020.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

My guess is that Sony drops theirs in 2023 and MS in 2024 as well. Sony clearly has the underpowered box and will be fighting that narrative for a few years just like MS last gen. Sony will definitely want the PS5 Pro out sooner than MS.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

My guess is that Sony drops theirs in 2023 and MS in 2024 as well. Sony clearly has the underpowered box and will be fighting that narrative for a few years just like MS last gen. Sony will definitely want the PS5 Pro out sooner than MS.

I would imagine if there was going to be a PS5 Pro it would hit in 2023 and Microsoft would follow a year later with an even more powerful Xbox Series X2 in 2024.

That's how it might play out again, like 2016/2017. I simply don't think we'll get enough advancement in 3-4 years to justify it. 8K doesn't matter. Games would still be rendered at a maximum of 3840x2160p. So where would the improvement be? Ray tracing. But I think that in the years to come, whatever advances AMD makes in RT with RDNA 3, RDNA 4, etc, when it comes to consoles that advantage should be saved for the next generation. In other words, no midgen upgrades.

 

[Hezekiah]

Score one for PC. If I'm gonna spend $1000 then another $1000...might as well just upgrade the pc. I hope this is not true.

It doesn't affect your initial purchase though, it'll still run games well. Or you could sell it and buy the Pro. Also where are you getting $1000 from?

 

[MichaelRR1989]

I'd give anything for a $1000 piece of console gaming hardware that was 3-4x more powerful than PS5/SXS and launched in early 2022.

 

[Jon Neu]

I'm totally happy with mid gen refresh consoles that target those desired max resolution + fps + bells and whistles. People getting mad at other people having the option of buying and upgraded version aren't thinking rationally.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

Well like I've been saying, if there are mid gen upgraded refresh consoles, the focus should be much better raytracing at 60fps, and 60fps versions of Sony first party games that would otherwise run at 30fps.

This might require 16 GB of HBM3, possibly 20 GB, and significantly higher memory bandwidth of 1.2 TB/sec minimum. I'm saying HBM3 because it is supposed to be easier to manufacture than HBM2 / HBM2E.

So, it would not be about getting 8K resolutions, but higher framerates at 4K / 4K cb/reconstruction/ better AMD DLSS-like stuff, like Nvidia has, etc and more / better / faster ray tracing hardware capabilities/resources. That would be cool and I would be on board for that, if NEXT-next-gen consoles aren't coming until Q4 2027.

 

[Esca]

I'm not sure if we will or not. I remember something about Sony looking to go back to 5 year gens again. If they do that we won't otherwise I feel we will if they see 7 years as better.

I'll probably upgrade to a pro if it's offered

 

[DavidGzz]

Seems to be so if we want RT and 60fps with great graphics. No DLSS and half-assed RT. Fook

 

[SentientStone]

I'm in for Pro.

 

[EDMIX]

Likely.

I'll get a PS5 Pro when I get a 8K tv. (Which might not be for a while since I may not even be in the United States when PS5 Pro comes out....)

 

[MichaelRR1989]

Then if there is to be a PS5 Pro, it needs to happen in 2023, have at least 2.5x the GPU compute power of PS5 GPU. So 80 CUs (like Big Navi 2X this year) 24 TF along with RT hw that's greatly improved over whatever is in RDNA 2.
So I'm thinking it would be RDNA 4 on TSMC 4nm EUV FinFET HP node.
CPU: it needs to be a 4.7 GHz Zen 4 (8c/16t)
CPU/GPU get a 3x boost to main memory bandwidth via 20 GB HBM3 with fine-granular memory access.

Microsoft will probably go for a 30 TF beast in 2024 with 24 GB HBM3, and similar huge upgrade to raytracing as PS5.


PS5 Pro / Xbox Series X2 consoles are purpose built, and do not aim solely for 8K 60fps gaming.

But rather, a mix of the following general possibilties
4K 60fps gaming with raytracing.
4K 120fps without raytracing.
checkerboard 8K (about 2x native 4K) 30fps with raytracing.
8K at 60fps for some games without raytracing

The bolded is what most devs would probably use the next mid gen console for.

 

[Neo_game]

People forged how awfully underpowered the current consoles were when they launched, those sub-2TF were basically low-end GPUs at the time, so obviously there was a whole deep space left for improvement. The upcoming consoles will be a really nicely balanced machines this time around, but still, you're at the mercy of developers, if they'll keep pushing 30FPS just to reach 4K, 8K etc. then IMO it doesn't matter how much power and features the consoles that will come in the next 4, 6, 8 years will have, because no matter the power, the performance will still be 30FPS.

Considering this gen consoles the pixel count was max, 2x and most 60fps games were 900P and 720P. The gfx leap was actually pretty good. This time the jump to 4K and RT are pretty expensive. I think many games will come with performance and quality modes

 

[tillbot8]

Would it make a massive difference? I mean really? My PS4 was was fine, got a Pro as a gift and yeah a little nicer but eh not 400 quid nicer! I have a 4k tv btw. I would be very happy with 1440p and 60fps standard and people can their series X X? and PS5 pro's to up res but unless I become a millionaire I have no interest in upgrading mid gen based on this generation.

 

[namekuseijin]

why stop there? wait for PSVR4 on PS7.

srsly, life's too short for idiotic nitpicking like this...

 

[Stilton Disco]

It's inevitable given how well they sold this gen.

I might wait for one. I'm in no rush to drop the PS4, and I've not even got any plans for a 4K TV in the near future.

Honestly, given all my worries about the Pro causing development problems and the base model version of future games running like arse never materialised, I'm more than happy to get another mid gen refresh that will just bump resolution up and increase performance.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Why are we hearing rumors about new hardware well before your much anticipated consoles are even on the market? I didn’t necessarily mind the mid-generation upgrade this generation because technically both consoles were underpowered and they at least took time to announce them, but I don’t think they should be talking or hinting Mat Pro versions yet because it’s premature at this point.

They should let things play out and see how developers are adapting to the architecture before talking about revised hardware already. It basically tells me these supposed, “beastly” consoles are not as powerful as they are making them out to be and need further refinements and power.

 

[Blond]

I guess it's important to look at why we had mid-generation refreshes this time around.

-For Sony it was a combination of of PSVR and 4K adoption.
-For Microsoft it was trying to correct the blunders of the launch XBox One which often failed to reach 1080P.

As others have said in this thread, maybe 8K adoption will take off and force the need for another mid-generation refresh but I kind of doubt it. Those sets are still expensive and content is really slim. COVID is going to make the world economy wonky through 2021 which is going to make those types of luxury items less attractive.

Ray Tracing is being thrown around but we are at least another generation, if not two, from full implementation being viable and affordable in a console priced box.

If I had to guess, I'd so we don't see Pro models this time around. I'd think Sony is more likely than Microsoft, as they've delivered the "under-powered" platform this time around.

There's a reason that Apple is being quiet about the new iPhone and why Google is planning the Pixel 5 to be a budget model. No ones gonna jump on this when they don't even know if there's work tomorrow.

 

[SliChillax]

Good. I'm tired of having dated hardware for 7 years straight. Console upgrades are a great idea.

 

[MichaelRR1989]

Why are we hearing rumors about new hardware well before your much anticipated consoles are even on the market? I didn’t necessarily mind the mid-generation upgrade this generation because technically both consoles were underpowered and they at least took time to announce them, but I don’t think they should be talking or hinting Mat Pro versions yet because it’s premature at this point.

They should let things play out and see how developers are adapting to the architecture before talking about revised hardware already. It basically tells me these supposed, “beastly” consoles are not as powerful as they are making them out to be and need further refinements and power.

Because its always fun to do that, even though we know absolutely nothing about the design. Even Sony and Microsoft don't know just yet. exactly how next-next gen hardware will have to be like to provide a 5x to 8x leap in power. I'm sure Cerny has personal ideas of what PS6 is built around, and likewise, the hw engineering heads at Xbox/Microsoft are probably thinking what console box(s) would be used as 1 or 2 of many gateways to GamePass and next-next gen games. I'd imagine an Xbox Series S2 (Lockhart successor) and the next-next gen minimum baseline should be 20 TF while the high-end targets 50-60 TF) and AMD almost certainly have their own non-public internal roadmaps of what they think CPUs and GPUs will typically look like (and what RAM might be ideal for them) in PCs and consoles in the back half of the decade (GDDR7?, HBM4?, etc)