Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Pretty sure they're on a planet, with the whole GPS thing.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
Pretty sure they're on a planet, with the whole GPS thing.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Elsie didnt trust telling or collaborating with anyone cuz she believes who ever is messing with the hosts is/are INSIDE the company, plus its been established pretty clearly that she's a competitive and semi paranoid person. Its well within her character.
We dont know whats gonna happened to pissing dude(forgot his name), you're jumping the gun.
The Butchers can do basic changes to damaged host. You dont need high levels like Bernard and Elsie to do every daily changes to every damaged host in the park. As for them walking around, the butcher was obviously making it look like he was just testing her, and its pretty clear by now that most of the low level workers and butchers "mind their own business" in that place, testing a host sometimes have them do dangerous looking things(like cowboys pulling out guns..etc), plus I thing everyone in there assumes you can stop a host on voice command.
fill in the blanks man!!!
I completely agree. The same thing happened for me with True Detective, and to an extent Game of Thrones. People get so obsessed with the show, build some impossible standards in their head and when the show doesn't deliver on those crazy expectations, you get some disproportionated hate. That or some people just give too much importance to the writing. Sure on a TV show it's important, but there's more to a series than that. You can argue that the butcher scenes weren't as well written as other moments, but I appreciated the energy of those scenes, the exciterment as you feel like things are about to unravel. It's about momentum, and the whole episode was full of it, it kept going forward. It certainly didn't take me out of it.
But then again I mostly just enjoy the ride, I don't watch Westworld for the deep philosophical conundrums or the flawless worldbuilding. Maybe the people that get really nitpicky about shows just take them too seriously.
"God's Beard!"
Member
My problem with the maeve stuff is that they spent so much time establishing the fact that she's smart and aware, why even bother with the stats scene? Completely unnecessary, it feels cheap after the scene of her walking through the facility.
LumpOfCole
Member
Dolores and Maeve are going to be BFFs by next season. Maeve will be the brains, but will be limited by her prime directives to not harm humans. Dolores will be the one with the total freedom.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";223360439]My problem with the maeve stuff is that they spent so much time establishing the fact that she's smart and aware, why even bother with the stats scene? Completely unnecessary, it feels cheap after the scene of her walking through the facility.[/QUOTE]
The scene was there to explain why Maeve was so smart and aware when other hosts are not. The techs discovered someone else had already altered Maeve's settings.
Plus the scene was the other shoe dropping on something the one kid had said in a previous scene: the computer inside a host is super powerful, and technically beyond the capabilities of a human brain.
The stat adjustment scene showed the limiter on that super computer has now been turned off.
The scene was there to explain why Maeve was so smart and aware when other hosts are not. The techs discovered someone else had already altered Maeve's settings.
Plus the scene was the other shoe dropping on something the one kid had said in a previous scene: the computer inside a host is super powerful, and technically beyond the capabilities of a human brain.
The stat adjustment scene showed the limiter on that super computer has now been turned off.
More_Badass
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";223360439]My problem with the maeve stuff is that they spent so much time establishing the fact that she's smart and aware, why even bother with the stats scene? Completely unnecessary, it feels cheap after the scene of her walking through the facility.[/QUOTE]
Because it was the proverbial "Unlock 100% of your brain" moment. She was smart and aware, for a regular person. Now she's beyond that, given that her brain is a super-advanced computer
Because it was the proverbial "Unlock 100% of your brain" moment. She was smart and aware, for a regular person. Now she's beyond that, given that her brain is a super-advanced computer
LumpOfCole
Member
Maeve effectively tuned her AI from King to Deity. "How can this be, that AI is cheating!" is now going to be a thing in this show for Maeve.
Veritigo_X
Member
If I were the butcher I would've just pretended to change her stats.
"Alright done, you're super smart now. Feel any different? No? I guess these stats are meaningless! Your true potential was inside you the entire time!"
"Alright done, you're super smart now. Feel any different? No? I guess these stats are meaningless! Your true potential was inside you the entire time!"
All this ep needed was a little more time spent showing the butchers attempting to be smart
- show attempts to turn her off continually not working, and keeps getting reset back to normal
- show why Asian dude is so charmed by this woman to take these risks
- show someone else transporting a host so we can understand what asian guy an Maeve were mimicking
Also, I'm all in on the multi time line shit. Gun dissapearing in the dresser makes no sense without it: she was remembering her past. Last ep she was in, she passed out in a crowd to talk to ford in the facility, and next we see her talking to William as if nothing happened (he would have been panicking). I'm sure every time she is talking to a tech it's in the future, which explains why she sometimes is instantly there from the park: her past memories get interrupted by people in the facility
- show attempts to turn her off continually not working, and keeps getting reset back to normal
- show why Asian dude is so charmed by this woman to take these risks
- show someone else transporting a host so we can understand what asian guy an Maeve were mimicking
Also, I'm all in on the multi time line shit. Gun dissapearing in the dresser makes no sense without it: she was remembering her past. Last ep she was in, she passed out in a crowd to talk to ford in the facility, and next we see her talking to William as if nothing happened (he would have been panicking). I'm sure every time she is talking to a tech it's in the future, which explains why she sometimes is instantly there from the park: her past memories get interrupted by people in the facility
?
There are 4.5 hours left.
Episode 7 - 57 minutes
Episode 8 - 58 minutes
Episode 9 - 59 minutes
Episode 10 - 91 minutes
Whoops. I thought last night was episode 7. Never mind me then.
Put it straight into my veins
Kor of Memory
Member
The wife and I just started watching this over the weekend and caught up except for last nights episode so far.
We have a couple of questions about some consistency stuff that I'm hoping was explained and we just missed.
Mainly:
How do people keep having chats with Delores while she's traveling with guests? Are they actually removing her while the guests sleep, just so they can talk? Or is Delores being uploaded to another frame that they can speak to in person?
Is the main facility at the top of a plateau looking out over the entire park? Or is it underground? Both?
Why does Bernard ask Delores "have you ever lied to me?" He knows she has the ability to lie, since he tells her to do it. So what purpose does this question serve?
We have a couple of questions about some consistency stuff that I'm hoping was explained and we just missed.
Mainly:
How do people keep having chats with Delores while she's traveling with guests? Are they actually removing her while the guests sleep, just so they can talk? Or is Delores being uploaded to another frame that they can speak to in person?
Is the main facility at the top of a plateau looking out over the entire park? Or is it underground? Both?
Why does Bernard ask Delores "have you ever lied to me?" He knows she has the ability to lie, since he tells her to do it. So what purpose does this question serve?
Its the most obvious criticism of the ep. Surprised th didn't explain it better
Frank the Great
Banned
The implications of the dog being real are much more interesting.
Babby Ford said that he heard a voice telling him to kill the dog because the dog was "made" just to kill, and therefore to essentially put it out of its misery. Now, we know hosts aren't created to kill. In fact, they're created specifically not to kill. Therefore, Arnold in the Shell's comments only make sense if the dog is (more like was amirite) real.
If that's the case, that scene is the most important one yet. Arnold was making a comment on life in general: all living beings are destined to kill each other and should be put out of their misery to avoid inevitable violence. This leads to several conclusions, both figuratively and in terms of narrative.
Specifically, it is clear that the park is a manifestation of humanity's obsession with violence. A place where the human id can run wild. The dog is a metaphor for Arnold's ultimate goal; wipe out humans to make way for the master race. The dog was the first casualty in the AI war against biological life, in order to eliminate the id entirely.
Originally, the aim of the park was to create an outlet for humans to express their violent tendencies, and id in general, against robotic beings, rather than express violence towards other humans. But ironically, the creation of those robotic beings revealed a better possibility, a future where there is no need for Westworld at all. In that future, the human id and the biological impulse towards violence has been eliminated.
Presumably, this is what Arnold envisioned. He may have killed himself and transferred his consciousness to either Bernard or (more likely) Ford in order to remove his own id and manipulate events at the park to make his vision of a more peaceful future--after a relatively brief interlude of war--possible.
Babby Ford said that he heard a voice telling him to kill the dog because the dog was "made" just to kill, and therefore to essentially put it out of its misery. Now, we know hosts aren't created to kill. In fact, they're created specifically not to kill. Therefore, Arnold in the Shell's comments only make sense if the dog is (more like was amirite) real.
If that's the case, that scene is the most important one yet. Arnold was making a comment on life in general: all living beings are destined to kill each other and should be put out of their misery to avoid inevitable violence. This leads to several conclusions, both figuratively and in terms of narrative.
Specifically, it is clear that the park is a manifestation of humanity's obsession with violence. A place where the human id can run wild. The dog is a metaphor for Arnold's ultimate goal; wipe out humans to make way for the master race. The dog was the first casualty in the AI war against biological life, in order to eliminate the id entirely.
Originally, the aim of the park was to create an outlet for humans to express their violent tendencies, and id in general, against robotic beings, rather than express violence towards other humans. But ironically, the creation of those robotic beings revealed a better possibility, a future where there is no need for Westworld at all. In that future, the human id and the biological impulse towards violence has been eliminated.
Presumably, this is what Arnold envisioned. He may have killed himself and transferred his consciousness to either Bernard or (more likely) Ford in order to remove his own id and manipulate events at the park to make his vision of a more peaceful future--after a relatively brief interlude of war--possible.
badcrumble
Member
Maeve is so fucked by the end of this season and it's really upsetting that that's the case. She's a fascinating character but she's moving her plot ahead too fast to be anything but a doomed martyr.
I had a different read on the thing with the dog. I think the dog is definitely a host. But what I took from it was Arnold is recreating an actual event in Ford's past. Something Ford never told anyone else before. Remember the story Ford told Old Bill in episode 5 about the dog? What if this is the ending to that story? What if he killed his own dog using that same logic. And now Arnold is telling him - "I know who you really are."
LumpOfCole
Member
Going by the show's narrative, I'm not sure I buy the "transferring consciousness" idea yet as it would be much more apt for Arnold's idea of 'children' to juxtapose with Ford's idea of 'children'.
I would argue that, with the narrative evidence we have right now, it's more likely that Arnold 'fathered' a host (or a series of hosts) to expand his agenda after death the way a father would groom his children to expand his legacy after death. With the latest episode, we better see Ford's own way of literally creating his children as being subservient, and the way he does it can be interpreted of being stuck in the past.
I believe you missed the point of that scene. Arnold blamed himself for whatever happened 35 years ago and 'killed' himself (became a ghost in the machine). He is saying that he is the dog and needed to be put to rest. He is speaking to Ford through the child
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Ford said he would fix the dog, which would imply the dog's a host.
badcrumble
Member
Oh shit, you are 100% right.
LumpOfCole
Member
To make an even better case for this, Nolan has presented something similar before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImgBAFEbb8g
"God's Beard!"
Member
I get all that, and I think it's pointless. All they had to say was that the only thing holding the hosts back was their control and it would have been enough.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
This is exactly how I read it too.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";223377039]I get all that, and I think it's pointless. All they had to say was that the only thing holding the hosts back was their control and it would have been enough.[/QUOTE]
It's good to establish rules for how things work. Stats screen showed insight on how host personalities are built, why Maeve is smarter than others, that her settings were already modified giving her motivations to do what she is doing, that hosts are artificially limited to be more human than robot, and what is implied if she were to become even smarter.. creating the hook for next episode.i liked those scenes
It's good to establish rules for how things work. Stats screen showed insight on how host personalities are built, why Maeve is smarter than others, that her settings were already modified giving her motivations to do what she is doing, that hosts are artificially limited to be more human than robot, and what is implied if she were to become even smarter.. creating the hook for next episode.i liked those scenes
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
That's what I thought it was too. That he was looking back at an event from his childhood, and exploring why he might have done that with the host.
I think this is close but the point was the hosts are meant to kill (military) the park is just to make them more convincing at infiltrating. Arnold is saying like a race dog, hosts are not to be treated as pets, they are too dangerous. Remember Arnold's last words to Dolores, he wanted to destroy the park. Its kind of unclear if it was to free the hosts or to destroy them.
But yeah they probably put that dog down.
Arnold is the dog and Ford is a time-traveler. Arnold died in the park, remember? Makes perfect sense.
Already wondering what kind of wacky shit might happen in that hour and a half.
MiamiWesker
Member
So it is all an Easter egg. That's kind of cheating, so many argue that everything is done on purpose, every detail specifically shown to give clues or is part of the mystery. But we get a whole room recreated from the movie and eh it's just an Easter egg, don't pay attention to any of this.
Frank the Great
Banned
Hmm. Yeah, your read is better.
I don't think subtle nods to a movie a good portion of their audience hasn't seen yet is cheating.
SwiftDeath
Member
I think the narrative under the narrative is what the Delos wants out of the park. Theresa mentioned to story guy that he was smart enough to see that the higher-ups had other motives for running the park than profit but not smart enough to see what it is suggesting it is not obvious.
Looking at the park as a whole, it is insanely expensive. Beyond anything else I can think of, it is pure insanity in terms of cost, both upfront R&D and in constant never-ending maintenance.
Besides the park itself, what does Westworld operating/existing offer to the super rich?
The only advancements in tech that I can think of would be host technology, both physical and software based.
My guess [although seems obvious so maybe not deep enough] would be immortality. There have been suggestions that mortality is still a problem without a solution. Bernards son for instance [assuming he actually existed]. So maybe biology has yet to solve a organic form of immortality thus Delos wants the next best thing which are androids so close to human they are indistinguishable. Thus Arnold's "death" may have even been what attracted Delos if that "death" was Arnold trying to transfer his subconscious into one of the hosts. The way Ford talks about Arnold outwardly suggests the story is Arnold died and the secret internal explanation is likely due to the conscious transfer going wrong although I think it worked but Arnold/Ford hid it. This would also explain the continued push to make them more and more real as the benefactor intends to pass off hosts as real one day.
The other possibility is that Delos is interested in AI assuming Arnold wasn't human to begin with which would explain how there are virtually no records for him.
I think Season 2 will be about Delos's motivations for funding the park. Season 1 reveals a lot of the secrets but doesn't answer the truly impending question of Delos's purpose in all this.
-
I do think that there is at least 1 secret host in management or thereabouts. Think Bernard being the host is more likely than Ford however.
-
This has probably been discussed to death but Kissy, the poker dealer, with the map under his scalp, was he ever identified as a new model or an Arnold original?
If Kissy is one of the newer models then that suggests that either Ford is actively working with the Maze narrative or that Arnold is somehow controlling aspects of new model production where Bernard being a host might come into play.
It feels like the Maze narrative has been rewritten since the first timeline as the snake lady named Wyatt who didn't exist until the newer timeline. I can't tell if that's Ford's meddling or if Arnold is course-correcting his hidden narrative as the world changes around him.
---
I really hope they can satisfactorily answer a lot of the questions they created. We'll see.
Tech scene w/ Maeve already shows the cracks in the writing/world lore imo. Characters are fine I guess, Maeve is great but their actions are just awful writing. It was like they wanted to walk her through the HQ and hamfisted their way into the plot to do so.
I feel like her intelligence being at 14 before the techs up it is important. 14 being the highest possible for a host in the park means that Maeve was working with the highest possible intelligence already, any professor/scientist/well-educated individual could only have the same intelligence as Maeve, brothel owner. Now while that's possible in the real world I feel like she probably was set to 10-12 int originally and that Arnold increased her int until the limit where people would not see it as a forbidden increase and look into who changed it. I feel like it means Arnold didn't account for the tech interaction.
Looking at the park as a whole, it is insanely expensive. Beyond anything else I can think of, it is pure insanity in terms of cost, both upfront R&D and in constant never-ending maintenance.
Besides the park itself, what does Westworld operating/existing offer to the super rich?
The only advancements in tech that I can think of would be host technology, both physical and software based.
My guess [although seems obvious so maybe not deep enough] would be immortality. There have been suggestions that mortality is still a problem without a solution. Bernards son for instance [assuming he actually existed]. So maybe biology has yet to solve a organic form of immortality thus Delos wants the next best thing which are androids so close to human they are indistinguishable. Thus Arnold's "death" may have even been what attracted Delos if that "death" was Arnold trying to transfer his subconscious into one of the hosts. The way Ford talks about Arnold outwardly suggests the story is Arnold died and the secret internal explanation is likely due to the conscious transfer going wrong although I think it worked but Arnold/Ford hid it. This would also explain the continued push to make them more and more real as the benefactor intends to pass off hosts as real one day.
The other possibility is that Delos is interested in AI assuming Arnold wasn't human to begin with which would explain how there are virtually no records for him.
I think Season 2 will be about Delos's motivations for funding the park. Season 1 reveals a lot of the secrets but doesn't answer the truly impending question of Delos's purpose in all this.
-
I do think that there is at least 1 secret host in management or thereabouts. Think Bernard being the host is more likely than Ford however.
-
This has probably been discussed to death but Kissy, the poker dealer, with the map under his scalp, was he ever identified as a new model or an Arnold original?
If Kissy is one of the newer models then that suggests that either Ford is actively working with the Maze narrative or that Arnold is somehow controlling aspects of new model production where Bernard being a host might come into play.
It feels like the Maze narrative has been rewritten since the first timeline as the snake lady named Wyatt who didn't exist until the newer timeline. I can't tell if that's Ford's meddling or if Arnold is course-correcting his hidden narrative as the world changes around him.
---
I really hope they can satisfactorily answer a lot of the questions they created. We'll see.
Tech scene w/ Maeve already shows the cracks in the writing/world lore imo. Characters are fine I guess, Maeve is great but their actions are just awful writing. It was like they wanted to walk her through the HQ and hamfisted their way into the plot to do so.
I feel like her intelligence being at 14 before the techs up it is important. 14 being the highest possible for a host in the park means that Maeve was working with the highest possible intelligence already, any professor/scientist/well-educated individual could only have the same intelligence as Maeve, brothel owner. Now while that's possible in the real world I feel like she probably was set to 10-12 int originally and that Arnold increased her int until the limit where people would not see it as a forbidden increase and look into who changed it. I feel like it means Arnold didn't account for the tech interaction.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Re: Arnold and Ford. I don't think Arnold is one of the family members, when Bernard asked "are you Arnold?" the dad robot's reaction was "who the hell is Arnold?"
I'm going with something convoluted like: Arnold/Ford downloaded his mind into a host body and is the Ford we know now, but also his mind is floating around in the network with its own plans and is the Arnold fucking with everything
I'm going with something convoluted like: Arnold/Ford downloaded his mind into a host body and is the Ford we know now, but also his mind is floating around in the network with its own plans and is the Arnold fucking with everything
Jack Scofield
Member
I liked the episode, but I felt that Mauve's subplot is advancing too fast. She seemed way too comfortable with herself despite her entire existence and reality being a lie. She somehow manages to keep her composure while travelling through the Westworld facility. I would think that she'd be freaking out despite her best efforts not to.
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
Me 2
SwiftDeath
Member
My other thought was how do Hosts handle aging.
Like clearly hosts don't need to age but if there is a host secretly amongst westworld personnel then either they are newer and not aging wouldn't be noticeable or hosts can age and there is something/some system allowing them not to age.
I.E. if Ford is a host then he must have the ability to age.
Still think Bernard is more likely the host but whatevs
Like clearly hosts don't need to age but if there is a host secretly amongst westworld personnel then either they are newer and not aging wouldn't be noticeable or hosts can age and there is something/some system allowing them not to age.
I.E. if Ford is a host then he must have the ability to age.
Still think Bernard is more likely the host but whatevs
That's how you know she is not long for this show.