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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
If I'm following MiB's strange monologue correctly, the incident with Maeve marked his return to the park, and also the first time he did something evil.
I suppose this means MiB isn't really a mainstay. His return to the park is relatively recent.
Which, if MiB = William is true, means something traumatic happens with William and Dolores. Williams leaves. Comes back years later a cold-hearted bastard.
Exactly, something really fucked up must've happened. And we are already seeing William getting more comfortable with killing and with treating the hosts as inferior. Like, he clearly wanted to kill that moribund kid today
If Bernard saying "this pain is all I have left of him" in regards to his son and then Dolores saying the exact same thing about her father is enough to allude to Bernard being a host (even before we saw Maeve say it again in this episode), I'm pretty sure the Everest-sized pile of coincidences between William and the Man in Black are anything but.
I wasn't on board with MiBilliam at first, because nothing made sense causally. Then Bernard was revealed as a host, and most of the cracks I had got sealed up by him having the potential to appear in both timelines. For what issues there are left, the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing towards the same thing - a lack of information on our part, not a lack of cohesion in the overarching narrative of the show.
I wasn't on board with MiBilliam at first, because nothing made sense causally. Then Bernard was revealed as a host, and most of the cracks I had got sealed up by him having the potential to appear in both timelines. For what issues there are left, the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing towards the same thing - a lack of information on our part, not a lack of cohesion in the overarching narrative of the show.
Soon. Teddy and MIB on the same quest isn't a coincidence. It also will not end in the park, but under it.
wesleyshark
Banned
We also know from a previous episode that Maeve has been in the saloon for about a year's time, according to the techs.
Garrett 2U
Member
I think something is going to happen to young William that changes him.
He is falling in love with Dolores who isn't fully sentinent.
She will reset and have no memory of him. He will become sad and cynical because the relationship he thought existed was all a mirage.
He'll go home, get married to the woman he doesn't love and live the life he doesn't desire.
He'll come back to Westworld as the MiB, acting out his depression and anger.
When he murders Maeve's daughter, he once again senses that feeling of realism.
Then he'll try to reset the events that occurred previously and help Dolores complete the Maze.
Banshee is what I know her from.
More_Badass
Member
- 30 years ago, William is going to get married
- Man In Black married for 30 years
- 30 years ago, William comes to the park for the first time
- Man in Black has been coming to the park for 30 years
- 30 years ago, William and Logan's company were looking to buy the park (implied to be Delos)
- Man In Black is a special VIP who owns the park and other parks (implied to be Delos due to Delos Destinations)
- William stops Dolores from entering the church that seems to be a central location for Arnold's maze/plan
- Ford says that Man in Black saved the park from Arnold's plan
- Logan tells William that you come to the park to find who you are
- Man In Black says he was born in the park
- William fights off Ghost Braves alongside Lawrence
- Man In Black mentions how he fought Ghost Braves with Lawrence
- The blonde host welcomes William to the park
- Man In Black recognizes the same host, now "retired" to a new role
What else?
- Man In Black married for 30 years
- 30 years ago, William comes to the park for the first time
- Man in Black has been coming to the park for 30 years
- 30 years ago, William and Logan's company were looking to buy the park (implied to be Delos)
- Man In Black is a special VIP who owns the park and other parks (implied to be Delos due to Delos Destinations)
- William stops Dolores from entering the church that seems to be a central location for Arnold's maze/plan
- Ford says that Man in Black saved the park from Arnold's plan
- Logan tells William that you come to the park to find who you are
- Man In Black says he was born in the park
- William fights off Ghost Braves alongside Lawrence
- Man In Black mentions how he fought Ghost Braves with Lawrence
- The blonde host welcomes William to the park
- Man In Black recognizes the same host, now "retired" to a new role
What else?
wesleyshark
Banned
Same girl, different year in the park.Also, that girl that was with Teddy and MiB is the same one from when William arrives at WW right? MiB recognizes her
Imo you're reading too much into it.
Dolores was just re living events that went to shit, at which point she eventually killed herself.
Now unless the editing has reached new levels of dishonesty and disconnect with linear narration, what we've seen either indicates 3 timelines, or William is contemporary of MiB.
Timeline 1: catatrophic events, 30 years ago, which led to Dolores blowing her head off. Hidden town was active, but burried following these.
Timeline 2: hidden town is burried, as seen by William. Dolores is on a Journey with William to get back to it.
Timeline 3: hidden town is burried, as seen by Ford. MiB looking forward to find the maze.
Depending how long ago Timeline 2 is, it may put a nail in MiB= William.
To me the most tantalizing part of this episode is Papa Abernathy getting out of cold storage and uploaded with all the park's data. That is going to be a magnificent shitstorm.
And while it's 99.999999% clear William is MiB, it does appear that they aren't going to actually reveal it concretely until the finale.
And while it's 99.999999% clear William is MiB, it does appear that they aren't going to actually reveal it concretely until the finale.
Garrett 2U
Member
Timeline 1 happens a little more then 30 years ago, timeline 2 happens 30 years ago
Timeline 3 is current events.
Timeline 4 is a year ago when MiB kills Maeve's daughter.
Garrett 2U
Member
Do you guys think Arnold was a Host that Ford created to assist him, similar to Bernard?
Yup, that's what I'm saying.
Calling it:
Dolores gets killed and reset as a result of William's actions, disillusioning him from the park and turning him into a that cold-hearted son of a bitch when he tries to talk to her again.
William lives his life.
His wife kills herself because William only ever loved the Dolores that was gone.
He comes back to test whether or not he's really evil, and kills Maeve.
Sees legitimate humanity in a host, goes on his quest to get to the center of the maze and free Dolores.
Dolores gets free, whether through her actions or his, and he gives her the choice of whether or not to kill him for the 30 years of suffering he sentenced her to by not letting her in the maze the first time.
Ed Harris comes back for Season 2
I am gonna get a lot of shit for this, but here it goes:
The problem with being convinced of one theory over another is that every little thing is viewed as "confirmation" in your eyes. Is it possible that MiB=William? Sure. Is it confirmed "99.99%"? Not even close. A lot of evidence people cite has a lot of confirmation bias.
The problem with being convinced of one theory over another is that every little thing is viewed as "confirmation" in your eyes. Is it possible that MiB=William? Sure. Is it confirmed "99.99%"? Not even close. A lot of evidence people cite has a lot of confirmation bias.
UnemployedVillain
Member
No. Arnold seemed very much a real person who Ford got rid or or who killed himself and "became" the Bernard host
Jinfash
needs 2 extra inches
I motherfucking called this line out weeks ago and got not input.
I thought about this, but then it would be really disingenuous to hide, from a narrative perspective, that the critical failure that happened 30yrs ago was preceded by a possibly even worse one which implied demolishing and hiding an entire section of the park...
Now, if I may point out, the events relating to the period around the park opening are tied to Arnold's suicide. Is it possible we are following T1 (-35y)around the events of Arnold's death, while T2 is happening at the -30y mark relating to the "last critical event"? Sure.
If we go that way though, it would almost make more sense that timeline 1 happened 30yrs ago and timeline 2 just a few years after. We have not had any indication of "critical failure" yet in T2 afaik, whereas clearly dumping tons of dirt to erase a town would indicate something like that.
The big reveal of the night was obviously that the hidden town was burried following catastrophic events years before T2, and not at the end of T2 -as we assumed until now-.
More_Badass
Member
Not when the show explicitly is about the past as key plot points, and has been talking about events 30 years ago for the entire show, and we have seen characters and events that fit into what the current characters talk about, and said character's arc and storyline slots snugly into what we've learned about the Man in Black
you have seen it fit snugly, because you want it to fit snugly. Bleh I don't even know why I brought this up, I am not gonna convince anyone.
Wait, MIB owns the park?
I see what your saying however Arnold died 34 years ago and the "incident" is mentioned as 30 years.
The scene at the church could be at the point or even why arnold ends up dead and considering they have stated multiple times that all evidence including photos of Arnold have been erased it is very possible that town was buried since Arnold's death, especially since almost every time Arnold or his plan has been brought up that church is smack dab in the center of it.
Also in general not to the poster I quoted it's fun to theorize and I think MIB=William but at the same time I am not married to it either and if disproven I will still enjoy it at long as they keep up the way it's been going, same as how I hoped Bernard was not a host but accepted that he is and was impressed with how they pulled it off.
PrivateWHudson
Member
Yeah, he's a god, a titan of industry.
More_Badass
Member
Perhaps. But is it bias when there are clear plot points mentioned in the show?
This isn't taking details and trying to twist them to make them fit a bias. It's articulated details from the show expressed by various characters that continually mention the 30 year gap, supported by direct information from the show and dialogue
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225161001&postcount=7910
wesleyshark
Banned
He runs Delos, and Delos owns the park.
More_Badass
Member
Garrett 2U
Member
When there's only 10 episodes, there's only so much time for the writers to spend trying to mislead the small audience of people like us who are going to analyze and discuss every scene in the show.
At this point, if it is a red herring then it'll be disappointing since this theory has so much build up.
wesleyshark
Banned
I know he's most likely referring to other parks, but it makes me wonder, just a little, what the outside world is like- I feel like there's some potential twists to be had there as well.
I am not saying you are necessarily wrong, I am saying that taking it as confirmation is where the bias comes in.
PrivateWHudson
Member
Don't forget, the old logo. It was written off as just a continuity mistake due to the stop and start production, but it was shown again tonight on the door to cold storage.
You know there had to be boss fights.
More_Badass
Member
I think that was meant to indicate the Delos Destinations, hence the other "worlds" like Westworld
wesleyshark
Banned
Yep noticed that as well. The placement of the two logos are definitely deliberate.
Seriously, what are those things? I didn't get that part at all.
Garrett 2U
Member
It's Wyatt's crew. I'm not sure why they dress that way, but you can see more of them at the end of the episode when the girl stabs Teddy.
Pretty much.
To get specific, for them to bring back one particular host we haven't seen in episodes, who has only ever interacted with one other person in one other context, and have the Man in Black say nearly directly into the camera, "ITS YOU I CANT BELIEVE YOURE STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE LAST TIME I SAW YOU WAS SO LONG AGO THAT I WAS STILL YOUNG HINT HINT WINK WINK", and then have them not be the same character...
That's an unironic "It was all a dream" level of Fuck You to the audience.
Garrett 2U
Member
Literally last episode William mentions how he is going to get married when he goes home.
This episode the MiB just happens to mention he has been married for 30 years.
I wasn't fully convinced during the logo theory stage, but all the evidence it's hard not to accept now.
Especially with Dolores having flashbacks and trouble discerning what time it is.
it was a raid boss 😅
Yea but the punishment that guy took was crazy. Teddy's bullets had no effect which made me think they are human, but if that was the case I thought a bigger deal would have been made after they killed it.
The William=MiB thing seems to be gaining traction now.
As far as paper trail and security goes, IIRC the episode where Bernard discovers the house he learns that some of the hosts can be altered 'off the grid', without detection, but it seems to be related to the very old, original models Arnold had a hand in making. He discovers the 'anomalies' in the park that were unknown. That's why Bernard had to go down to the vault to pull that old data.
With everything that's happened with her, and especially after this episode, it's probably safe to assume Maeve is one of those models, or at least similarly altered. Her reaction to her 'daughter's' death and them trying to erase her back then makes it pretty clear that she's different.
As far as paper trail and security goes, IIRC the episode where Bernard discovers the house he learns that some of the hosts can be altered 'off the grid', without detection, but it seems to be related to the very old, original models Arnold had a hand in making. He discovers the 'anomalies' in the park that were unknown. That's why Bernard had to go down to the vault to pull that old data.
With everything that's happened with her, and especially after this episode, it's probably safe to assume Maeve is one of those models, or at least similarly altered. Her reaction to her 'daughter's' death and them trying to erase her back then makes it pretty clear that she's different.
elrechazado
Banned
I still don't get what you mean by William foiling Arnold's plan. He stopped Dolores from killing herself, recreating what she may have done in the past. How does stopping her from killing herself with nobody but william there change anything? She goes there and relives her memories. Agree with all other points