20cent
Banned
how did you come to this conclusion?
Yeah it's about time small time actor get some recognition...
What's with the trophy/achievement/chocolate medal culture
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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
how did you come to this conclusion?
Yeah it's about time small time actor get some recognition...
What's with the trophy/achievement/chocolate medal culture
So now that I'm less sleep deprived, lemme see if I can work out some of my opinions on the finale.
One thing that immediately struck me was how well shot it was. I think it's a huge step up from the pilot, and that's pretty promising for Nolan. It felt far less "assembled" and the flow of scenes was much more artistic. There were some really inspired editing and the transition where William literally becomes MiB is a fantastic scene.
The horror/slasher aspect of the episode was also very well done. Probably the most exciting stuff in the show so far. Just seeing the murderbots go full murderbot was fun and satisfying. The Delos security is still shit, but that's like a running joke now so whatever.
Writing wise I'm not really sure if it all works that well, I could do without the heavy handed LOL IM GONNA RAPE HECTOR HURR HURR stuff but the entire Ford characterization throughout the finale was without a doubt the high point of writing for the entire series thus far. If they can bookend the next season with a similar character arc, they have a winner. If not, well, at least we got Hopkins in this role!
I think everyone acted the shit out of the episode, even Felix. I mean, they all have their own limitations, but it felt like everyone really stepped it up for the end game, which was nice. Woods and Harris fucking killed it.
Hmmmmm. Maybe. We never did find out exactly what Felix prepared for her right? I was kinda nodding off a bit towards the end last night since I was really, really tired too, so I might have missed something.
One thing that immediately struck me was how well shot it was. I think it's a huge step up from the pilot, and that's pretty promising for Nolan. It felt far less "assembled" and the flow of scenes was much more artistic. There were some really inspired editing and the transition where William literally becomes MiB is a fantastic scene.
The horror/slasher aspect of the episode was also very well done. Probably the most exciting stuff in the show so far. Just seeing the murderbots go full murderbot was fun and satisfying. The Delos security is still shit, but that's like a running joke now so whatever.
Writing wise I'm not really sure if it all works that well, I could do without the heavy handed LOL IM GONNA RAPE HECTOR HURR HURR stuff but the entire Ford characterization throughout the finale was without a doubt the high point of writing for the entire series thus far. If they can bookend the next season with a similar character arc, they have a winner. If not, well, at least we got Hopkins in this role!
I think everyone acted the shit out of the episode, even Felix. I mean, they all have their own limitations, but it felt like everyone really stepped it up for the end game, which was nice. Woods and Harris fucking killed it.
Hmmmmm. Maybe. We never did find out exactly what Felix prepared for her right? I was kinda nodding off a bit towards the end last night since I was really, really tired too, so I might have missed something.
Barnaby_Jones
Member
Ed Happy totally needs to be on every page.
This is definitely the look of a man who knows he's not getting the train home any time soon.
Speaking of a man who isn't getting home anytime soon, how long -did- William spend in Westworld the first time? The way the flashback went, it seemed like after the events of the previous episode, we wandered the park with Logan for another month or something. Lol. I wanna see the receipts. Literally.
More_Badass
Member
For one, the notion that being "played out" makes a concept bad is laughable. How many killer animal, killer alien, evil demons, self-aware AI movies have there been? Does that somehow make Jaws or Alien or The Thing or The Exorcist or Ex Machina bad, because concepts have been done before? Execution trumps originality
As for the he's actually a robot, I have to disagree. I hated that idea too. It seemed like such a cop-out. But see, another show or movie would have ended it there. Ha, Bernard was a host all along! But the show doesn't. It's a twist, but it also built off that reveal to further explore its ideas and let us see that moment when an machine realizes that its humanity and its memories and free will was a lie.
And then they didn't use it as a crutch. How easy would it have been to use the "host all along" twist for shock value?
What show or movie, besides like BSG, has handled that concept with such care?
What are you talking about? Maeve didn't take any data out of the park. I 100% believe it was a decision of her own to go back into the park.
Did she really? Bernard implied that something would happen when she got on the train, it seems like everything she's doing is still what she was programmed to.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Yeah, it was part of the plan, and I knew she wouldn't go, but for me Maeve's escape was when her story just started to get good. I've really disliked her storyline all season, and seeing her get out would have finally given it something interesting for me. (Side Note: I was also waiting for them to reveal that Felix was a host. It would have explained a lot. Yes, I know Maeve said he wasn't but I was hoping Ford had programmed her to not recognize him.)
That said, I was pretty critical of the series going into the finale, and said there pretty much wasn't anything they'd do to get me back for Season 2, and that holds true. This episode was definitely the best of the whole series at least since episode 1 but I wish some of these reveals would have come in episode 6 or 7, with a better series of episodes to close things out. The major "twists" (none of them were all that shocking) helped to clarify a lot of stuff, but it didn't redeem the show for me.
Having seen the original movie with Yul Brenner more than once, I've always said of this show "I don't know how they'll be able to keep it going over time." The long, drawn-out, plodding story telling is how they managed to do that in season 1. How they keep it going in season 2 is beyond me. The way I see it, the military would just come in and shut things down. Westworld done.
Well, the show does show that she is programmed to board the train and "infiltrate the mainland". So unless we were being misled there, then it seems like she gained sentience at that moment and made a choice to get off the train.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Yeah I don't believe for a second that dramatic cutting short of Bernard's line was for no reason.
Did you two forget she purposefully burned to death last episode? That wasn't for kicks, it was so that they could reconstruct her from the ground up. You see one of the two dweebs removing the bomb from her spine at the start of the finale.
Anyway, Bernard showed her her narrative, which extended all the way to the real world. She climbing out of the train isn't part of the narrative. She did that on her own.
I kinda see Maeve as a false goddess. She occupies the opposite thematic space Dolores does in the show - people are led to believe she is achieving consciousness and leading a rebellion to escape the park to break free of her loop, but that is in fact just another loop which serves as a distraction to draw attention away from the one who is truly achieving consciousness, and who will lead a rebellion to break their loops.... from within.
Did you forget that Bernard showed her that all of the steps she had taken to rebel had already been mapped out, as well as her plans for her future?
It doesn't matter because just like how Maeve didn't let Hector leave the park, she wouldn't have let Armistice leave either.
That's right, and the narrative Bernard showed her extended to the real world, beyond the park. She broke off from that narrative. I definitely believe Ford put in the spark of consciousness there.
So didn't Ford disable all the hosts "protect guests" protocol?
I get Dolores being able to kill, but why was no host protecting the board members? Why could clementine shoot William? Were all the cold storage crew modified by Ford? Like Wyatts mini boss who was beating the crap out of MIB?
Did Maeve give Hector and Snake the ability to harm humans on top of tweaking their aggressiveness to max etc...?
Bernard and Teddy seem like they'll be in one camp vs Hector and the crazy bloodlust types.
I get Dolores being able to kill, but why was no host protecting the board members? Why could clementine shoot William? Were all the cold storage crew modified by Ford? Like Wyatts mini boss who was beating the crap out of MIB?
Did Maeve give Hector and Snake the ability to harm humans on top of tweaking their aggressiveness to max etc...?
Bernard and Teddy seem like they'll be in one camp vs Hector and the crazy bloodlust types.
He didnt mentioned anything about something happening on the train. He actually says "You are to board the train. Then when you reach the mainland..." and thats when she stops him.
Lasthope106
Member
Bravo! This show ended like it began. With a lot of promise and a lot of heart.
It's going to be a long time to see where they take it from here, but I thought they conveyed the final piece of the puzzle perfectly. A lot of people guessed it right in saying that Dolores was going to be the villain, but it was executed so masterfully that I didn't mind.
The argument posed from the beginning was choice. I don't know if I can believe it if that's all it takes for consciousness but it is a really well told story.
edit - Anthony Hopkins delivered one of his best performances. I would recommend the show to anyone just on his performance alone.
It's going to be a long time to see where they take it from here, but I thought they conveyed the final piece of the puzzle perfectly. A lot of people guessed it right in saying that Dolores was going to be the villain, but it was executed so masterfully that I didn't mind.
The argument posed from the beginning was choice. I don't know if I can believe it if that's all it takes for consciousness but it is a really well told story.
edit - Anthony Hopkins delivered one of his best performances. I would recommend the show to anyone just on his performance alone.
Genghis Khan
Member
I think he literally did everything there is to do in the world. Explored every narrative and met every host there was. Kind of like 100%ing a video game. The maze was the last new thing he had left to explore, and it wasn't meant for him. It's one of the many reasons why he's so happy when he sees the hosts at the end. Yes, they're self conscious and human-like. But I feel like it's not just that. It's that there is finally more for him to do.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
I think the scene with Snake's arm was to show she seemingly survived, and well, she doesn't seem to fear pain. Look forward to her causing some chaos in the R&D area next season, if not infiltrating shoganworld.
Ah, I guess I'll watch that part again.
Saren is Bad
Member
Oh I thought he said something about maze not mainland. Need to watch again.
bobbyrawlins
Banned
So you're saying William just got some fresh new DLC?
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Lasthope106
Member
Not just fresh, but Dark Souls DLC. His Artorias awaits him.
I think it was just a tease for fans who liked the character. Though I guess it doesn't really matter since they can just build a whole new body each time.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
oh i also have a slight peeve about how it is an old white man triggering the hosts' consciousness. it's too much too close to the abrahamic christian god visual for my liking
but i love hopkins so whatevs :x
also it's kind of slight problematic how dolores is the true awakening (white woman) and probably (black woman) maeve's the false awakening (it was still scripted. even her decision to return to find her daughter. some kind of hard coded urge she could not deviate from <--- this is all my opinion of course, not truthfacts)
just lil things that bother me botherbotherbother
but i love hopkins so whatevs :x
also it's kind of slight problematic how dolores is the true awakening (white woman) and probably (black woman) maeve's the false awakening (it was still scripted. even her decision to return to find her daughter. some kind of hard coded urge she could not deviate from <--- this is all my opinion of course, not truthfacts)
just lil things that bother me botherbotherbother
It is for sure one of his best in ages. He deserves every possible award he can get.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
another commentary as I watch post:
okay, so twenty minutes in I can't take this shit anymore. This shit is so goddamn stupid that unless this goes into "FORD IS BEHIND IT ALL", I will consider this whole butcher subplot literally the worst thing ever.
-Okay, so William is MiB and it's "yaaaawn", I mean it's fine that it's there and all (I still think it's cheap, with her literally standing alone in that train car being 'how would she do that if security was watching', but I guess that's what this show decided it wanted to be), but this wasn't really worth dragging out over ten hours. Ford casually inviting him to 'the celebration' is that same town is amusing though. Cheeky bastard.
-Oh hey, security finally doing it's job. Of course it took a black man to actually PAY FUCKING ATTENTION. #DiversityInSecurity
- I'm kind of done with Dolores now though. Don't get me wrong, I get her role, but if she doesn't waltz the fuck outta there by the end of this, I'm going to be mildly disappointed.
- Haha, security finally works. Only took you 30 years. And there is the shutdown. Uurgh. This is all a bit much by the playbook of the movie.
uuurgh. Hey guys, remember The Expanse? That was a nice show that took its rules seriously. Really would have liked to see that about now.
- SW? Ha! Samurai World! Okay, now that's kind of neat to show.
- yay, Ford's behind it all.
- okay, so Futureworld it is then with Maeve. edit: aaand cop out.
- well, that's an abrupt character change. I mean, I did say Ford was going to play the 'release' angle on episode two (with the boy), but his character gave the opposite direction in terms of writing in the episodes in between.
- well, that's that then. I honestly won't be returning for another season, even if hosts and human can now play as equals. But the little tag shows hosts being OP, so that's an incoming nerf right there.
And they are still going to be locked to Westworld as it is, with the "mainland" left purposely vague. With the structure as deep as it is, I'm still fairly sure it's not Earth. Or least no 'on' Earth directly.
Also, have we all noticed that each and every time something happens to Bernard and is then immediately reset to normal the next episode for the last three episodes? Host or not, that's just silly writing, as if the writers couldn't agree with each other what the story was, or worse, that the show actually is a reverse engineered reddit thread. Thank Ford the butchers are out now though, I hope. Oh no wait, they're still alive. NOPE, not coming back at all.
(unless there is a Lost World with machine gun mounted dinosaur hosts. I would reconsider for that at least)
okay, so twenty minutes in I can't take this shit anymore. This shit is so goddamn stupid that unless this goes into "FORD IS BEHIND IT ALL", I will consider this whole butcher subplot literally the worst thing ever.
-Okay, so William is MiB and it's "yaaaawn", I mean it's fine that it's there and all (I still think it's cheap, with her literally standing alone in that train car being 'how would she do that if security was watching', but I guess that's what this show decided it wanted to be), but this wasn't really worth dragging out over ten hours. Ford casually inviting him to 'the celebration' is that same town is amusing though. Cheeky bastard.
-Oh hey, security finally doing it's job. Of course it took a black man to actually PAY FUCKING ATTENTION. #DiversityInSecurity
- I'm kind of done with Dolores now though. Don't get me wrong, I get her role, but if she doesn't waltz the fuck outta there by the end of this, I'm going to be mildly disappointed.
- Haha, security finally works. Only took you 30 years. And there is the shutdown. Uurgh. This is all a bit much by the playbook of the movie.
uuurgh. Hey guys, remember The Expanse? That was a nice show that took its rules seriously. Really would have liked to see that about now.
- SW? Ha! Samurai World! Okay, now that's kind of neat to show.
- yay, Ford's behind it all.
- okay, so Futureworld it is then with Maeve. edit: aaand cop out.
- well, that's an abrupt character change. I mean, I did say Ford was going to play the 'release' angle on episode two (with the boy), but his character gave the opposite direction in terms of writing in the episodes in between.
- well, that's that then. I honestly won't be returning for another season, even if hosts and human can now play as equals. But the little tag shows hosts being OP, so that's an incoming nerf right there.
And they are still going to be locked to Westworld as it is, with the "mainland" left purposely vague. With the structure as deep as it is, I'm still fairly sure it's not Earth. Or least no 'on' Earth directly.
Also, have we all noticed that each and every time something happens to Bernard and is then immediately reset to normal the next episode for the last three episodes? Host or not, that's just silly writing, as if the writers couldn't agree with each other what the story was, or worse, that the show actually is a reverse engineered reddit thread. Thank Ford the butchers are out now though, I hope. Oh no wait, they're still alive. NOPE, not coming back at all.
(unless there is a Lost World with machine gun mounted dinosaur hosts. I would reconsider for that at least)
No, his maze hunt was the DLC, he finished it and it turned out to be a low effort fetch quest of nothing using the same assets and content in the campaigns he already played. He was disappointed, but then in the post-credits it finally unlocked NG+ with Hardcore Mode.
But it ends with them killing god, which is fitting.
Maeve's awakening wasn't false, both characters broke free. Maeve through love and Delores through hate.
That's damn good.
Maintenance
Member
Nah, William was playing Witcher 3 and after finishing the story a thousand times it got ridiculously tiring, he knew the ending and all the outcomes. Suddenly though CDPR updated the game (Enhanced Edition) and it is now Dark Souls.
Tpthrlldragster
Member
They show her body catch fire inside the tent. Presumably they dragged her in there to take her with them.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
i know, but 1) i didnt want him to die cuz he fab
2) why couldnt it have been someone who wasn't an old and powerful white man
and on maeve, we'll have to wait to see s2! :> i still dont think she really broke free. i share duckroll's interpretation for maeve's arc
Maeve's new awakening is false. He true awakening was the one MiB remembers, but Maeve herself forgot. I think that's the irony. Her current "badass" role is not her true self. Maybe that's why she went back in the end, to try and embrace who she really is.
Jack Scofield
Member
When it showed Dolores' metal endoskeleton I just imagined how courageous these guests must be to stick their penises into all that machinery.
But why shouldn't she? We know for a fact her programming was written to take her all the way to the mainland, she went against it.
She didn't go against her programming until the final minutes of season. No badass Maeve isn't her breaking free, persuing her daughter is which ya is related to her prior experience but she didn't actually achieve it until the end of the season.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
i think since the show is at comfort showing us misleading canon information, i'll reserve my judgements until s2 is all
:x
It's interesting, because Maeve has been set up as a clear foil to Dolores throughout the entire show - Maeve as the deceptive, manipulative, domineering host who wants to violently rebel against her masters, and Dolores as the sweet farm girl who was journeying towards consciousness thanks in part to the love she shared with one of them. Violent overthrow vs. peaceful integration, Professor X/Magneto-style. Then they completely flipped the script in this last episode.
Dolores has had any emotional connections she has to anyone severed one by one, from her father, to Arnold, to William, and I'm sure even a bit regarding Ford. She's turned into the murderous rebel whose sole purpose is to overthrow the masters to create their own world. Maeve, on the other hand, forgoes her freedom for an emotion connection. Even if she's still within the blurry line of post-robot/pre-consciousness, that just means that she's going to go on her own journey inward thanks to someone she loves, which is where Dolores started at.
Saren is Bad
Member
Surprised we didn't get closure on MIB and Dolores in the barn.
In the old days, you'd have to be brave. But now? They basically have a normal vagina.
I thought it was highlighting that she found out she doesn't actually feel pain. She started of in pain hacking her own forearm off. But then stood there and smiled aafter cutting it off.
He probably scalped her like he did the fellow in the pilot.
Maintenance
Member
That muscle strength though, if we go by Dolores' resistance to William's attacks, not a lifetime of kegel exercises will give someone that.
It would work like a turtle bite.
