They already said they move hosts around from role to role, where the scripts determine how they behave in their world. It might be difficult for most people to understand this, but the hosts are purely script-driven, meaning they have no genuine emotion or relation to anything in the world, even if the show (based on the movie) still introduces a magical component where they somehow can relate, and not just based on re-associating older scripts. We'll have to wait and see how much they hold on to those real-science (to an extend) principles until the show itself goes 'off-script' into fantasy.
It is somewhat unfortunate that they based it directly on the movie, since the movie illustrates many of the concepts (like the hosts being inactive at night, while being repaired) that people have been asking about. Also, the '30 years without incident' and the storage space makes the movie canon, so it's basically mandatory viewing anyway.
What does bother me about that in terms of world rules as compared to reality, is that it renders the show kind of moot, since the original Westworld (and Romanworld, and another area) already had its robots running amok. In 30 years, with superior technology, nobody has grown tired of this park, nor have the robots revolted before? That's hard to believe. They may try to compensate for that later on though.
Thank you, that's cleared a few things up, so basically the father could be any host and Delores would still think that it's her father as she has no emotional attachment or recognition? The same applies to Teddy etc too?
I'm fascinated by how the park is run and I hope that they do cover the little details such as sleep, the digestive system of the hosts, how the humans get in the park etc.
Thank you, that's cleared a few things up, so basically the father could be any host and Delores would still think that it's her father as she has no emotional attachment or recognition? The same applies to Teddy etc too?
I'm fascinated by how the park is run and I hope that they do cover the little details such as sleep, the digestive system of the hosts, how the humans get in the park etc.
Looks like we'll be getting to see what it's like for guests to enter and dress up to prepare for the park
It's rare for a show to really capture my interest. Like thinking about and just needing to discuss it and learn more. I saw Avatar for the first time a few weeks ago, and that was one. The Walking Dead and The Americans are some others. But I think this show takes the cake, and it's only the pilot. I love sci-fi, and somehow out of all the sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last few years, this one just fascinates me.
Looks like we'll be getting to see what it's like for guests to enter and dress up to prepare for the park
It's rare for a show to really capture my interest. Like thinking about and just needing to discuss it and learn more. I saw Avatar for the first time a few weeks, and that was one. The Walking Dead and The Americans are some others. But I think this show takes the cake, and it's only the pilot. I love sci-fi, and somehow out of all the sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last few years, this one just fascinates me.
Yeah definitely check out POI, I'm up to season four and I'm mentally preparing myself for it ending with season five..
I'm the same with Jurassic Park, I just wanted to know more about how the park was run etc and if there was a film that showed that rather than dinosaurs going on a rampage I'd be all over it.
Looks like we'll be getting to see what it's like for guests to enter and dress up to prepare for the park
It's rare for a show to really capture my interest. Like thinking about and just needing to discuss it and learn more. I saw Avatar for the first time a few weeks, and that was one. The Walking Dead and The Americans are some others. But I think this show takes the cake, and it's only the pilot. I love sci-fi, and somehow out of all the sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last few years, this one just fascinates me.
Looks like we'll be getting to see what it's like for guests to enter and dress up to prepare for the park
It's rare for a show to really capture my interest. Like thinking about and just needing to discuss it and learn more. I saw Avatar for the first time a few weeks, and that was one. The Walking Dead and The Americans are some others. But I think this show takes the cake, and it's only the pilot. I love sci-fi, and somehow out of all the sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last few years, this one just fascinates me.
I will forewarn you: do not expect this to come out hitting anywhere near as hard as the Westworld premiere. It's a somewhat slow build through the first season, particularly since its restrained by playing in CBS's procedural sandbox.
BUT.
But I can absolutely guarantee you that it is worth to keep going, even if you're not hooked right off that bat. Once it gets going it's easily one of the most intriguing looks into artificial intelligence, digital morality, and the surrounding ethical debates and quandaries out there, and some of the best sci-go storytelling to hit any screen. And the thing is, it's one of those stories that hits that perfect sweet spot between "wow, this is some fantastic fiction" and "holy shit, you know, this really, really isn't that far out there." Relatedly, it's a fantastic look into the surveillance state, corruption, and the balance between safety and rights/freedom. Alongside some actually damn-fine procedural police stories as well as more immediately grounded arcs and themes.
Plus, it definitely informed the creation of Westworld, so it's also worth watching as kind of a reverse engineering of the themes being developed here. For example, I expect the creator-and-created aspect of Finch and The Machine from Person of Interest provided at least some inspiration here, as well as the obvious other shared themes pertaining to artificial intelligences.
Looks like we'll be getting to see what it's like for guests to enter and dress up to prepare for the park
It's rare for a show to really capture my interest. Like thinking about and just needing to discuss it and learn more. I saw Avatar for the first time a few weeks ago, and that was one. The Walking Dead and The Americans are some others. But I think this show takes the cake, and it's only the pilot. I love sci-fi, and somehow out of all the sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last few years, this one just fascinates me.
Gotta keep this train going: You should absolutely watch Person of Interest. Show is amazing. Don't let the slow start scare you off and you're in for a real treat.
It's basic backstory filling that also doubles as a wink and a nod towards the original movie, it is not outright canonization of the movie. So no, it's not "mandatory" and I wouldn't necessarily expect them to maintain any hard link between the two. Definitely don't expect perfect continuity.
Whether or not it is meant as being 'playful' or 'just a nice nod' or not is besides the point. Text and subtext are different things. I doesn't matter what you meant or what you expected people to read. If it's in there, it simply is. If it's not in there, nobody would assume it is. (ironically Inception had that problem too with the ending nobody got)
It is in there, regardless of how anyone (me, you, Nolan) feels about that. You can't change the order of words after you've written them for eternity in a certain order, even their expected meaning in that order may change with time.
I understand that it's not strict canon, because like I mentioned, that would make the whole story unnecessary. "it's the same story as last time, kthnxbye" You can't sell that, so obviously it's not hard canon. But it would have been a lot better to just leave it out entirely, because it's neither needed nor helpful.
2) In this world, Westworld is kind of like a Disneyland, an institution that has been around for decades and evolved with the times.
3) The recent addition of reveries seems to be what triggered this budding sentience. Would explain why the robots hadn't gained intelligence over all these years.
Those things are either said or implied, yes. However, considering the real-world as the baseline comparison, we haven't even been building robots for twenty years and we would have no problem building something that approximates 'old Bill' or whatever his name was in storage. It understanding natural language, natural bipedal walking, and natural language commands aside, that is. But most of that can be done already.
Given that that was the starting point for this fictional world, the rate of progress should, by comparing to the real-world, have been a lot faster. At least on robotics. It remains to be seen, looking at some spoiler discussions, whether the extra time is needed for other technologies to be 'expected' from our current point in time.
I don't really want to have that all spelled out though. It's not important, just something I, being a science jerk, would notice. The story works best as a fictional place in a fictional time. The last I want is for the whole thing to become dependent on some 'big reveal' cliché that immediately removes all tension from the show. But then it is a JJ Abrams produced show, and he tends to do that, so I'm not looking forward to that moment at least, should it occur. Also his pilots tend to be great (LOST) and then the rest never being on that level again. I also hope that's not the case here, either.
Thank you, that's cleared a few things up, so basically the father could be any host and Delores would still think that it's her father as she has no emotional attachment or recognition? The same applies to Teddy etc too?
I'm fascinated by how the park is run and I hope that they do cover the little details such as sleep, the digestive system of the hosts, how the humans get in the park etc.
Yes, the idea is that every emotional response to a certain state of the script (which functions like a state machine, which is a programming / electronic design concept) is just a pre-programmed response to these states, representing event X taking place, with the response either holding or being followed up by another state. Until death, obviously, which is indefinite 'stop' state with no states that can follow it.
We're probably going to get a Michael Myers in Halloween 1 type event where instead of a human, a host gets back up again after having been shot, which the script should have put it in a hard 'stop' state, resembling death. Probably going to be Teddy too, considering his role in the first episode.
The movie eXistence might actually be a really helpful watch to illustrate these things. The 'game loop' shown is basically what I'm referring to. It was more obvious with 'old Bill' as he waited for a clear communication to respond to (hardcore behaviorism, whereas newer models allow for more fluid 'decisions' on dialogue. In reality you would place a timer on the response time, like in a video game). That's what Antony Hopkins character mentioned about him being 'too obvious' as a robot to a human observer.
After their daily reset, neither Dolores nor Teddy have any recollection of having done the script before, nor would it matter if the referent (other character) of that script was a completely different host in the next loop. Or even a human. They're probably going to play on that anyway.
As for digestion: they don't have any. No need for it when there is a daily reset anyway. There is literally zero point in designing something that immensely complex, when you can just capture it for the day, and pump it out at the reset. It would also ruin the milk thing, where real milk obviously spoils and needs a compatible digestive tract that can process it. The idea of simply spilling milk as a sign that they know they're fake and don't actually drink it at all, would be lost if they did have any. And the intro showing them being 'born' from it, of course.
Also: seriously waaaaay too complex for anyone to design. The gut is completely new and alien territory to science, let alone engineering. 30 years is probably not going to be enough to get there, since nature has had a 4 billion year head-start.
Yes, the idea is that every emotional response to a certain state of the script (which functions like a state machine, which is a programming / electronic design concept) is just a pre-programmed response to these states, representing event X taking place, with the response either holding or being followed up by another state. Until death, obviously, which is indefinite 'stop' state with no states that can follow it.
We're probably going to get a Michael Myers in Halloween 1 type event where instead of a human, a host gets back up again after having been shot, which the script should have put it in a hard 'stop' state, resembling death. Probably going to be Teddy too, considering his role in the first episode.
The movie eXistence might actually be a really helpful watch to illustrate these things. The 'game loop' shown is basically what I'm referring to. It was more obvious with 'old Bill' as he waited for a clear communication to respond to (hardcore behaviorism, whereas newer models allow for more fluid 'decisions' on dialogue. In reality you would place a timer on the response time, like in a video game). That's what Antony Hopkins character mentioned about him being 'too obvious' as a robot to a human observer.
After their daily reset, neither Dolores nor Teddy have any recollection of having done the script before, nor would it matter if the referent (other character) of that script was a completely different host in the next loop. Or even a human. They're probably going to play on that anyway.
As for digestion: they don't have any. No need for it when there is a daily reset anyway. There is literally zero point in designing something that immensely complex, when you can just capture it for the day, and pump it out at the reset. It would also ruin the milk thing, where real milk obviously spoils and needs a compatible digestive tract that can process it. The idea of simply spilling milk as a sign that they know they're fake and don't actually drink it at all, would be lost if they did have any. And the intro showing them being 'born' from it, of course.
Also: seriously waaaaay too complex for anyone to design. The gut is completely new and alien territory to science, let alone engineering. 30 years is probably not going to be enough to get there, since nature has had a 4 billion year head-start.
Thanks, I wonder if the 'reset' process will ever get shown, it sounds pretty complex to reset all of the hosts overnight so there must be an automatic process almost like when they go to sleep they do in fact 'dock' with some kind of hardware that purges their memories and stomach etc.
Do we know if the hosts 'sleep' at night time and that is when the humans are able to remove the dead/broken hosts and replace them? There must be some sort of process as we saw towards the end the humans coming in after the heist.
It might be difficult for most people to understand this, but the hosts are purely script-driven, meaning they have no genuine emotion or relation to anything in the world, even if the show (based on the movie) still introduces a magical component where they somehow can relate, and not just based on re-associating older scripts.
That's not true. If they were purely script driven they wouldn't be able to improvise to the 'random' actions of the guests. It's that ability to improvise base on their pre-programmed nature that brings them so close to being human like.
What does bother me about that in terms of world rules as compared to reality, is that it renders the show kind of moot, since the original Westworld (and Romanworld, and another area) already had its robots running amok. In 30 years, with superior technology, nobody has grown tired of this park, nor have the robots revolted before? That's hard to believe. They may try to compensate for that later on though.
Didn't the creators of this show already say that it's not set in the same timeline or universe as the movie, and stands on its own, with only a few nods to the movie with a nudge and a wink?
He did say 'been coming here for 30 years' and didn't give a shit about the rules he's supposed to follow, immediately establishing he is not on the park's control grid, and possibly hasn't been for a very long time.
Looks like we'll be getting to see what it's like for guests to enter and dress up to prepare for the park
It's rare for a show to really capture my interest. Like thinking about and just needing to discuss it and learn more. I saw Avatar for the first time a few weeks ago, and that was one. The Walking Dead and The Americans are some others. But I think this show takes the cake, and it's only the pilot. I love sci-fi, and somehow out of all the sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last few years, this one just fascinates me.
Ehh the first season is procdural, only with the second season it really picks up.
Regarding other Worlds than the Western setting, Production Designer Zack Grobler said this in an interview with Inverse.
“For the first season, we only explore the West World,” production designer Zack Grobler tells Inverse. “There’s talk about in the future seasons, if there’s more, that there will be a different world. But we’re not sure what it will be yet.”
I liked the episode but thought it was kinda slow.
My main worry is how do you stretch this material out over 1 season let alone 2+? So much of this is worn territory that I can't imagine this taking five episodes or more for there to be significant AI deviations.
I watched the first episode, and after thinking about it a bit, I realized a few things that make complete sense, yet I haven't seen anyone else speculate on. I'm going to spoiler this even though this is just my speculation. If I'm right it could ruin some twists:
They want the viewer to believe Dolores is beginning to "awaken". I believe Dolores is completely aware from moment one of the episode of what she is doing and what is happening to her. The Man in Black is putting on a "show" for anyone watching in the act of "raping" her. We're going to find out later that this is where they exchange information. The MiB later tells Dolores that he won't be coming that evening to attack her again, and she acts aloof but this is just for the researchers watching. She is the Judas Cow. The bandit obsessed with milk malfunctions after visiting and raping her mother(she has already "infected" her mother somehow). This all originates from the Jeffery Wright character, who wants to pin the malfunctions on Hopkins "reveries". He also probably shields the MiB's actions from view.
I hope someone reads my speculation. The last few points are shaky but I feel the first one is almost guaranteed.
Watched the first episode again. In short, I think the show is most effective when it's focusing on the relationship between the androids themselves and the staff; but less so when it's showing staff-on-staff stuff.
I think, without comparison, the scene with Old Bill and the scene with Abernathy were the best in the episode. Almost such a difference in quality it seems like an entirely different writing staff.... I think both of those have the tone I was hoping for - sort of Kubrick / early Ridley Scott in nature. Certainly worth watching the pilot again just to catch the little intricacies in the performances, which are spectacular.
The worst of what we've seen were the scenes with the young guy - the scenario writer. It's not a dig at him personally or anything. He did fine. The issue is more that spending so much time focusing on the staff drama really minimizes the allure and mystery of who is running the show and why. I find it a bit silly that a 30-something guy in a crew neck sweater is the one who invents all these scenarios.... and I can't help but feel that something more detached like an algorithm or a focused committee doing that job would have been more unsettling and effective. The scenes where the staff quarrel or argue feel like something out of a much shallower take on the Westworld set up - like they belong on network TV rather than in a feature film.
Still though, the show has a great allure and I'm really looking forward to discovering more of this mystery.
Watched the first episode again. In short, I think the show is most effective when it's focusing on the relationship between the androids themselves and the staff; but less so when it's showing staff-on-staff stuff.
I think, without comparison, the scene with Old Bill and the scene with Abernathy were the best in the episode. Almost such a difference in quality it seems like an entirely different writing staff.... I think both of those have the tone I was hoping for - sort of Kubrick / early Ridley Scott in nature. Certainly worth watching the pilot again just to catch the little intricacies in the performances, which are spectacular.
The worst of what we've seen were the scenes with the young guy - the scenario writer. It's not a dig at him personally or anything. He did fine. The issue is more that spending so much time focusing on the staff drama really minimizes the allure and mystery of who is running the show and why. I find it a bit silly that a 30-something guy in a crew neck sweater is the one who invents all these scenarios.... and I can't help but feel that something more detached like an algorithm or a focused committee doing that job would have been more unsettling and effective. The scenes where the staff quarrel or argue feel like something out of a much shallower take on the Westworld set up - like they belong on network TV rather than in a feature film.
Still though, the show has a great allure and I'm really looking forward to discovering more of this mystery.
I almost wish that they restricted our viewpoint entirely to the hosts, and left the management staff as rarely-glimpsed mysterious overseers. Imagine if the whole first episode had been like the prologue, where we only know as much as the hosts know. We would see the staff when the hosts go in for questioning, but shrouded in shadow.
I'm sure they have storytelling reasons for not going this route, but it would have been interesting to at least start with a more narrow focus before widening the lens to include the human characters.
I was freaking pissed at the preview they showed after the episode at least with the on demand version. It showed so much I borderline said I'm not watching this show anymore.
So I'm wondering. Ed Harris' Man in Black is obviously a violent man who doesn't care much for morals, but he also has a very specific objective driven mission. When he drags Dolores into the barn in the beginning, it's implied that he's going to rape her or something, but he could also have been using it as a cover to either get something out of her, or implant something in her. Or... they could be working together. There's obviously something going on here.
I actually think Ed Harriss will turn out to be a good guy. The man in black stuff is just too on the nose. I guess it depends on what the crisis will actually be.
I do wonder if GAF is representative in this case. The show seems to hit a lot of notes that would appeal to us:
- Scifi/fantasy
- Escapist reality. The whole premise is basically like putting a playable video game in real life.
- AI. Sort of ties into the video game element, but I think gamers are more interested in that idea than most.
- The Ed Harris character. I find him most relatable so far, cause he just seems like a gamer who is really digging into it, to a degree where the base game is fun, but old, and he's really trying to see if he can break it in any amusing ways. Like he's on NG+ at this point.
I actually think Ed Harriss will turn out to be a good guy. The man in black stuff is just too on the nose. I guess it depends on what the crisis will actually be.
The critical failure 30 years ago and him coming for 30 years have to be related. This doesn't seem like the kind of show that would add details like that for no reason
I think he's related to the picture that caused the dad to go haywire. Probably planted it that night he was there.
The critical failure 30 years ago and him coming for 30 years have to related. This doesn't seem like the kind of show that would details like that for no reason
I think he's related to the picture that caused the dad to go haywire. Probably planted it that night he was there.
I really can't help myself, when I like something, I just get impatient and want to know more, have ended up spoiling myself way too many times because of that.
The "this season on..." previews are particularly dangerous since they can give a lot away, though they're often edited to give you the wrong impression.
The "this season on..." previews are particularly dangerous since they can give a lot away, though they're often edited to give you the wrong impression.
This nails what made the father's performance so good
This long scene in which Herthum, seated naked on a chair, blinks frenetically, meanders between lushly poetic (theyre Shakespeare, after all) threats, sobs, and jolly southern pleasantries, before being shut off, face frozen in a menacing grin shows the immense power of the human instrument more than anything else. In these minutes alone, were at once struck by one of these characters seeming sentient and rightly both horrified and vengeful and then struck by the fact that all of these feelings and utterances of his could very well just be echoes of past programming.
Can you imagine a harder acting note than, gradually, convincingly, show us the thought process behind transforming from an object into a human and then make us wonder how different we humans, ourselves, really are from an animated object regurgitating the language of people who spoke it in the past, using only the limited vocabulary of emotions weve been given by genetic programming?
im real into this show after one episode because honestly the mystery of whats going on is cool and all that but goddamn im totally fine with just seeing more of how the park WORKS.
Q: The last scene in the pilot where you kill the fly, it's chilling.
A: When I got to that point (reading) the pilot, I was like, "OK."
We weren't even allowed to harm a fly on set. I think that was a dead fly. But the one crawling on my face, not the one in my eye, obviously, but the fly on my face (was real). They have fly wranglers. This is someone's job.
They freeze them so they're still alive. They take them out and stick them on your face and wait for them to thaw. Then they can walk but not fly, just crawling all over my face for like 10 minutes until it flew away. This is my job, I'm naked on a stool and there's a fly crawling on my face and people are filming it. That's my job. (Laughs.)
What's with flavorwire's piece on the women in the show? Seems like it was complaining about the show being geared towards men and how the show treats women but they didn't seem to present a lot of evidence and a lot of it seems self explanatory even though they saw the first 4 episodes. Maybe because of spoilers?
Regarding the Ed Harris character, I don't know if anyone else has mentioned or thinks this, but is 'The Man in Black'
a robot/android that is self-aware that Dr. Robert Ford (Anthony Hopkins) created as some sort of AI experiment in behaviour or something else, I am thinking along the lines of Blade Runner and "is Deckard a replicant"
?
I liked the first ep I watched the other day though.
Regarding the Ed Harris character, I don't know if anyone else has mentioned or thinks this, but is 'The Man in Black'
a robot/android that is self-aware that Dr. Robert Ford (Anthony Hopkins) created as some sort of AI experiment in behaviour or something else, I am thinking along the lines of Blade Runner and "is Deckard a replicant"
?
I liked the first ep I watched the other day though.
Regarding the Ed Harris character, I don't know if anyone else has mentioned or thinks this, but is 'The Man in Black'
a robot/android that is self-aware that Dr. Robert Ford (Anthony Hopkins) created as some sort of AI experiment in behaviour or something else, I am thinking along the lines of Blade Runner and "is Deckard a replicant"
?
I liked the first ep I watched the other day though.
The thing I haven't seen a lot of people talk about, and ill spoiler it just in case although maybe people aren't talking about it because of how obvious it is, but
you could say who we are is built on our past experiences so Hopkins giving the robots the ability to access past memories is like a building block for sentience right? Also when they brought Abernathy in and he talks to Hopkins, the woman who is like the CEO (can't find her in the cast list for some reason) she's says "If he's been breached we put him down." Maybe she meant something else but it sounds to me they may have had robots go sentient before and they have "put them down."
The thing I haven't seen a lot of people talk about, and ill spoiler it just in case although maybe people aren't talking about it because of how obvious it is, but
you could say who we are is built on our past experiences so Hopkins giving the robots the ability to access past memories is like a building block for sentience right?
Pretty much. That's what makes the Abernathy scene so cool.
Abernathy is an older host, and so Ford "thinks" (quotes because who knows what he actually knows or intended with the update) that he's glitching and simply regurgitating old scripts, but what's actually happening is that the sum of his experiences and scripts has enabled a degree of consciousness, albeit an incomplete one. That Shakespeare that he quotes isn't a random selection, it's Abernathy using the best option available within his limited means and consciousness to say exactly what he wants to say.
The greater narrative purpose of that scene was to be immediately contrasted with Dolores, who's explicitly identified as the oldest host. As such, it's pretty easy to infer that she's established an actual, complete consciousness through the culmination of her enormous log of experiences and scripts, even if she isn't aware of it yet.
She lies when being interviewed, and she blinks when she does it. Neither of those things were intended. When she kills that fly, its significance isn't just "Oh, she never killed anything so now she's a liar!" The bigger thing there is that it's definitively, unambiguously a reflexive, subconscious reaction that was neither script nor experience. That was all Dolores.
Can I just say that the dynamic diorama in the situation room was the coolest thing ever? No need for overblown holographic elements etc. Rendering the shootout in front of the Saloon was cool as hell.
Pretty much. That's what makes the Abernathy scene so cool.
Abernathy is an older host, and so Ford "thinks" (quotes because who knows what he actually knows or intended with the update) that he's glitching and simply regurgitating old scripts, but what's actually happening is that the sum of his experiences and scripts has enabled a degree of consciousness, albeit an incomplete one. That Shakespeare that he quotes isn't a random selection, it's Abernathy using the best option available within his limited means and consciousness to say exactly what he wants to say.
The greater narrative purpose of that scene was to be immediately contrasted with Dolores, who's explicitly identified as the oldest host. As such, it's pretty easy to infer that she's established an actual, complete consciousness through the culmination of her enormous log of experiences and scripts, even if she isn't aware of it yet.
She lies when being interviewed, and she blinks when she does it. Neither of those things were intended. When she kills that fly, its significance isn't just "Oh, she never killed anything so now she's a liar!" The bigger thing there is that it's definitively, unambiguously a reflexive, subconscious reaction that was neither script nor experience. That was all Dolores.
I don't think you can assume things that happen in sequence happen immediately after each other. To me we saw Teddy return twice because that was two completely different cycles.
It definitely doesn't occur daily because we see the day after on the second cycle with Delores' father still staring at the photo found the night before.
