Nah, the comparison is apt and definitely what they're going for.
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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
The poster isn't necessarily complaining about the show, rather they're stating the park set up has no appeal to them.
If that's the case, then it makes even less sense, they created a world where you can do anything without worry and with creatures that are not distinguishable from real people.
How is the appeal not completely obvious?
[edit]
And it takes place in an almost mythical time period.
For reasons explained in their post. It holds no appeal to them because there's no challenge, no consequences.
okay, but I'm not saying it's not comparable? he was asking where the 'fun' was and his only examples were trying to relate the entire show to a game, when it clearly has more to offer and is probably building to something. the entire show can continue to stay relatable to games but I don't understand how them having god mode (again, at least for the first two episodes) somehow makes the entire show worthless. It really isn't the same thing as playing a game with god mode on. One is a story, the other is taking away any challenge you might have in an actual game.
perhaps this is what I was missing/not understanding correctly. if the setting has no appeal, that's fine. I just don't think it will impact the story, by itself, in a negative way. the writing will decide that, not simply the setting. It's how they work within those confines.
that being said I'm pretty sure things are going to get fucked up, haha. "where is the fun part" - I think this is exactly what the show is building to, based on all the clues given to us in the first two episodes. I think it would be rather difficult to get the impression that nothing is at stake.
Why would guests go there if they thought they would get killed? It obviously has appeal because of what the park is and them getting murdered by a robot doesn't take away that appeal.
I'm sure the human brain does some crazy stuff in Westworld, despite knowing that hosts can't hurt you.
It doesn't appeal to them. The person writing the post. They do not care for it. And that is their explanation for why.
Other people are allowed to find it appealing. You're allowed to.
Then it WAS a complaint like I said in my original post and it's also completely premature when the show is only 2 episodes in. It's like watching the first 20 minutes of Jurassic Park and saying, "I don't get this, they're in no danger".
haha
ffejeromdiks
Banned
Gotta agree with the other guy, the show is completely going over yer head. You keep repeating the same points over and over again as if it justifies you're stance but it doesn't. If you think the hosts don't feel anything then you aren't even paying attention The show is making it painfully obvious that there's something more within them, Marsdens character, Abernathy, the prostitute and of course Delores. What show are you watching where they aren't clearly defining human psychology parallels within the hosts? They even have AI-PTSD for christssake, it's not like the show is being particularly subtle about this either, it's been playing on it from the opening shot of the pilot.
ShooterMcGavin
Member
Finally got to watch the first two episodes this weekend. I'm in love with this world so far; it has really consumed me.
You have been programmed to act in particular ways to a range of stimulus (including those that cause pain) by billions of years of biological evolution. If a living system is complex enough to have consciousness, self-awareness, and the ability to experience psychological and physiological pain, what does it matter if the system has been constructed by biological evolution or human engineering? I imagine the thing experiencing their reality doesn't care for the distinction when they're the one suffering pain.
For one, he had clearly glitched (perhaps because the hosts' sentience isn't fully developed yet?), so not only was he running off script, but he wasn't correctly responding to his programming. I imagine the show creators put that in to show us what kind of physical abuse they can stand up to and still operate. That will make them formidable enemies.
Secondly, even some humans 'glitch' and don't correctly respond to pain in the normal way. Not as dramatically as depicted in the show, but humans not experiencing pain is a real documented thing. Doesn't make mutilation of their bodies ok, does it?
From another angle.
What precisely is premature in what they're saying? Do you feel they do not have a full enough grasp on the services the park when working as intended offers? Are you anticipating some kind of challenge mode made available within the park that the poster would enjoy?
They definitely think they feel it. When they are shot they grimace and they limp when hurt. I'm pretty sure they feel everything humans do, just that it's possible to turn off that feeling (and all emotion) in an instant if commanded to. But they cannot, or don't know how to control that
I saw some talk of this on Twitter that framed this in a way that made it sound really interesting, and I'm thinking of checking it out.
Do I need to/should I see the original movie before watching this? I'm usually someone who always feels the need to see/play/whatever the original first, but I feel like it's better to check.
Do I need to/should I see the original movie before watching this? I'm usually someone who always feels the need to see/play/whatever the original first, but I feel like it's better to check.
You're referring to psychological pain, which I'm not denying. I mean physical pain. They have not shown that they experience physical pain.
The show has shown that they do not experience physical pain and therefore would be formidable foes. To your second point, no. We cannot bring people back to life and we cannot replace their body parts. The hosts don't ever die nor do they have permanent physical damage.
More_Badass
Member
And of course what is pain but a "programmed" reaction to stimuli. Does matter if the programmer was evolved or artificial?
There's a difference between consciously experiencing pain and reacting to pain. Unsure which it is, but probably conscious given the nature of the show - although why they programmed them like this is a mystery.
Yes it does. Say a guest burns them, they react by screaming as if in pain. Would they react the same if it was self inflicted? They accidentally brush against a hot iron or pan? I doubt it.
Let's try it in these terms...
You're in a room with one of these hosts tied to a chair. You have a hot iron and press it into their flesh. They scream in agony, the smell of burning flesh fills the room, tears stream from their eyes, and they beg you to stop hurting them. You are informed that every time you press the hot iron into their flesh you will be awarded $50.
Do you continue to burn them? Why or why not?
MrCunningham
Member
I think they are designed to simulate physical pain but don't actually feel it. Mental pain seems to be real though. When the stranger in black was pulling that host along by horse, you can see that the host was in a state were he was showing signs of fatigue but at no point did he ever fall over or collapse from exhaustion. He is still a synthetic being at his core and could probably get towed around by that horse indefinitely. They were programmed to give realistic responses to pain to make them feel real to the guests.
There is a line about them feeling no shame or pain. It isn't clear if that was rhetorical flourish or accurate.
You are still you, but know as much as one of the Westworld staff or guests about the hosts, and you don't know this is part of a TV show.
sneakypete
Member
I wish HBO would go the Netflix route so I could binge their shows. A week is too long.
andythinkpad
Member
I won't because Westworld is basically a fancy Disney World. Doing so would ruin the idea that spending vacations in mega theme park is fun.
But I can see some serious slickdealers do that to recoup their vacation cost.
I have read story of a guy took out 40-50 car rentals in the short spin of 3 days to get promotional points.
They can't until they pull out of cable
If I'm a guest I go for it. Any emotional reaction on my part is illogical, the result of trickery on the part of skilled programmers and artists, which my logical portion can overcome.
If I'm one of the staff who knows we basically just gave them memories then no, shit is getting too real.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Okay question: in ep 1 they said they successfully purged the update that was allowing the hosts to access memories from the previous cycles. Is it then meant to be a mystery now why the black prostitute is managing it anyway? Is it that maybe "these violent delights have violent ends" is a code phrase that's reactivating it?
More_Badass
Member
That seems to be the implication
Yeah, this is what bothers me about this series early on. Everyone from the script writer to the staff members say they want the hosts to feel danger and excitement... but the hosts can't be shot or harmed. So when the participants are aware there isn't mortal danger, I would think it destroys much of the tension for them.
I have to wonder if the creator is the one who
planted the photograph and the gun to see how his creations would react
if he's the one who planted those things out of curiosity and for more of a challenge, since he's been to that ranch so many times in the past
made that gun for protection... and if so, could it be lethal since it wasn't provided by the WW staff?
andythinkpad
Member
They rolls back the Win10 update but the phrase still triggers the rootkit.
Makes logical sense, but then they give him that line when he god modes through the village that this is what he loves. If it is the way they're going they should be better portraying his boredom, not playing up his enjoyment.
It's quite possible that Ford is using Bernard (if he's a host) for his own narrative purposes. Perhaps Ford is bored with the status quo--a lot of talk of boredom in episode 2--and wants to shake things up a bit.
When Bernard was talking to the assistant showing him footage of what ex-dad was doing before he had a total meltdown, it was implied there was something indicating that it wasn't just the photo. Something that caused an immediate reaction. Was it Harris approaching him and telling him something? The code phrase? They seem to be hiding that from the audience deliberately.
It doesn't matter. All you know is that when you do it, they display signs of extreme pain and plead with you to stop.
And the second part of my question. Why?
DangerMouse
Member
"She was examined and cleared"
ROFL Good luck dude.
ROFL Good luck dude.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I've come to the conclusion that, whatever is going on inside the robots heads, they are effectively conscious and sapient already. The way the show frames them is exactly the same as human actors 99% of the time, its a sort of "cinematic turing test", I wouldn't think they were inhuman except the show explicitly told me so, and the level of complex improvisation they're capable of suggests a high degree of abstract thought. Again, Turing standard: if they can fake it so convincingly, whatever's going on in their circuits is doing at least as well as we do.
But they're also mentally inhibited. They're capable of abstract thought and self awareness, but what's going on isn't them becoming sapient for the first time, its all of the things that keep them in a mental "fog" incapable of asking larger critical questions starting to break down and be sabotaged. They're capable of genuine fear, outside of scripted contexts, the end of this episode shows it. So they actually do have an internal sense of self and self preservation, not just a routine going "robber in town -> be afraid -> run from guns"
This is why the end of episode 2 is so important. She has no reason to be afraid if her fear is purely programmed as a reaction to circumstances inside the park.
But they're also mentally inhibited. They're capable of abstract thought and self awareness, but what's going on isn't them becoming sapient for the first time, its all of the things that keep them in a mental "fog" incapable of asking larger critical questions starting to break down and be sabotaged. They're capable of genuine fear, outside of scripted contexts, the end of this episode shows it. So they actually do have an internal sense of self and self preservation, not just a routine going "robber in town -> be afraid -> run from guns"
This is why the end of episode 2 is so important. She has no reason to be afraid if her fear is purely programmed as a reaction to circumstances inside the park.
You know that pain is just a programmed reaction in our nervous system to warn us of potential damage right? Pain isn't "real."
Yes... But I feel pain regardless of who inflicts damage upon me. I don't act as if something hurts only when others inflict damage. I also cannot be repaired instantly or be brought back to life.
Edit: I don't get why people can't understand how I don't feel any sympathy for the hosts when they are "murdered." They don't die.
seems like it's more about empathy in general, regardless of if they 'can't die', you don't think it's completely fucked up to cause traumatic pain to a creature, synthetic or not, if the pain is perceived as 'real' ?
I'm not sure what the argument is anymore. Pain is a sensory simulation. There's no acting going on. Some people have mastered ways to blocking out the simulation or ignoring it. Pain doesn't automatically equate actual physical harm. Often our bodies are able to withstand more than what it feels like, but the pain threshold is meant to prevent us from testing this or exerting beyond our limits.
There's no reason to assume that it is any different for the hosts. They are true AI, not scripted reactions. So pain, just like emotion, is just another layer of their core programming. If a host is folding paper and gets a paper cut, there's no reason to think they wouldn't really feel it, because that's the sort of subtle reaction you want a true AI to have, to feel more real.
The larger issue at hand here is that it doesn't really matter if they can or cannot die. The fact is, when something has a certain level of consciousness, it becomes very troubling to consider the consequences of thinking of these things as objects to be used. Just because you can control how they think, and modify the perimeters of their physical state as you see fit, shouldn't make the thought less disturbing. Slavery wasn't bad because it was causing people to be abused and killed. Slavery was bad because the mentality of owning another person and thinking of them as property should be troubling.
I think psychological pain is awful, yes. The physical part means nothing as they don't feel or die.
All pain is psychological. Physical harm is not pain. It's a totally different thing. -Pain- by definition, is a psychological trait. It's a brain reaction.