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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO

This setup of the Westworld does nothing for me.

In the town it's a MMO with god mode enabled for every player. Outside of town it's single player RPG with all cheats on. Where is the fun part.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
I think this show might be over your head.

The whole point is their emerging consciousness and sentience.

Rapeing sentient beings is absolutely wrong, regardless if they are human or not.

I get the whole emerging consciousness thing. I just don't feel anything for the hosts. They're fucking robots for hells sake. They don't have sex for pleasure, I'm not convinced they feel anything. The tragedy is that they are conscious and exist only for the pleasure of people. They cannot leave and cannot do as they please. Essentially they're robot prisoners. If you're tv was conscious, would you feel bad for changing the channel? These violent actions are nothing if they can't feel pain, they don't even die...

Edit: a better analogy is a pocket pussy. How do you rape a pocket pussy, it was designed for weirdos to fuck it. If it was a robot that gained consciousness, would it care?
 
I get the whole emerging consciousness thing. I just don't feel anything for the hosts. They're fucking robots for hells sake. They don't have sex for pleasure, I'm not convinced they feel anything. The tragedy is that they are conscious and exist only for the pleasure of people. Essentially prisoners. However, these violent actions are nothing if they can't feel pain.
The pain isn't the issue. It's the realization that all your hopes and desires are impossible because your fate is controlled and artificial, and you're stuck in an endless hell to be abused and manipulated
 

Risible

Member
I can see the human emotions slowly taking place. As far as being raped, they aren't human. How do you rape an electronic appliance? They would have no reason to feel this is a violation of anything.

Posts like these are so confusing to me. Do you completely lack empathy? When you watch a movie do you not feel any sort of emotion because it's not real and it's only actors? When the guy got stabbed through the hand did you just think "Eh" because he was a machine, rather than cringe and think how horrible it seemed given his reactions to it?

I think I know who the real robot is here....
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
The pain isn't the issue. It's the realization that all your hopes and desires are impossible because your fate is controlled and artificial, and you're stuck in an endless hell to be abused and manipulated

Exactly. I get that. But I have a hard time feelings sorry for the hosts outside of that. Am I supposed to feel bad that they are getting shot? I don't.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
Posts like these are so confusing to me. Do you completely lack empathy? When you watch a movie do you not feel any sort of emotion because it's not real and it's only actors? When the guy got stabbed through the hand did you just think "Eh" because he was a machine, rather than cringe and think how horrible it seemed given his reactions to it?

I think I know who the real robot is here....

I did think "Eh." The way he acted was the way he was programmed to. Until I know he feels any pain, my reaction will always be "eh."
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I feel bad for the hosts because the show is obviously about emerging consciousness. It's going to happen, so all the abuses we're seeing the hosts currently experience are going to factor into how they feel once they become fully self aware.

Right now it's similar to watching a sleeping person being abused - yes, they are not aware of the abuse at this precise moment but they are going to be. And it actually makes it worse in a way. Because the human creators in the setting aren't considering the consequences of what they're doing - allowing proto-sentient life forms to be abused and mutilated.

The ethical questions involved are not at all dissimilar to dealing with subjects like the use and abuse of animals. Some people would claim to feel nothing at seeing an animal abused because it "isn't a person, just a biological machine". Except that's not really true, in the case of animals at least - humans are animals, simply with more complex neurological systems and greater awareness. It's a difference of degree, not kind.

Westworld seems to be headed in the direction of establishing a similar comparison between levels of consciousness even without biological similarity. The hosts aren't organic but they seem to already be more sophisticated mentally than most biological animals. The fact that they have been purposefully created by another species rather than naturally evolved may not matter measured against what they are. There are serious questions of human responsibility for what humans create being set up here.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
The ethical questions involved are not at all dissimilar to dealing with subjects like the use and abuse of animals. Some people would claim to feel nothing at seeing an animal abused because it "isn't a person, just a biological machine". Except that's not really true, in the case of animals at least - humans are animals, simply with more complex neurological systems and greater awareness. It's a difference of degree, not kind.

Animals feel pain, anyone that looks at animals that way is psychotic. Nobody whose house burns down thinks "I hope my toaster didn't suffer."
 

Burt

Member
I did think "Eh." The way he acted was the way he was programmed to. Until I know he feels any pain, my reaction will always be "eh."

If you were to get stabbed, you would react in the way your body is programmed to react. If they couldn't feel pain, they wouldn't have fear, and they wouldn't have nightmares. With the infinite possibilities within Westworld, you couldn't just have hosts purely running scripts - they'd have to be able to accept unanticipated stimuli and react accordingly. Whether or not you think their body tell them "HOLY SHIT THIS REALLY HURTS I'M SCARED" and your body telling you "HOLY SHIT THIS REALLY HURTS I'M SCARED" have any overlap is up to you. The fact that they can be manipulated, repaired, and reset doesn't change that though.
 
Animals feel pain, anyone that looks at animals that way is psychotic. Nobody whose house burns down thinks "I hope my toaster didn't suffer."
Toaster don't have consciousness or sense of self

Is pain really what matters? Is someone with a disorder that makes them not be able to register pain (which is a real thing btw) not human or worthy of empathy?
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
If you were to get stabbed, you would react in the way your body is programmed to react. If they couldn't feel pain, they wouldn't have fear, and they wouldn't have nightmares. With the infinite possibilities within Westworld, you couldn't just have hosts purely running scripts - they'd have to be able to accept unanticipated stimuli and react accordingly. Whether or not you think their body tell them "HOLY SHIT THIS REALLY HURTS I'M SCARED" and your body telling you "HOLY SHIT THIS REALLY HURTS I'M SCARED" have any overlap is up to you. The fact that they can be manipulated, repaired, and reset doesn't change that though.

This is grand theft auto with robots. When an NPC gets run over in game and screams, my reaction is the same with the hosts.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
Toaster don't have consciousness or sense of self

Is pain really what matters? Is someone with a disorder that makes them not be able to register pain (which is a real thing btw) not human or worthy of empathy?

If that person was ultimately unharmed, yes. Real people cannot be brought back to life or given new limbs. Raping that person would actually be rape as sexuality has meaning for people. Hosts have no reason to differentiate sex and rape. They have no reason to believe they are different things because they don't feel anything (as far as I know).
 

Chairhome

Member
He says that he was
"born in this game"
or something along those lines. I think he may be evidence of
host/Newcomer hybrids.

I'm pretty sure what he means is
"born" in a the sense that the real him emerged by visiting Westworld for 30 years. This is alluded to by the douche friend who says "here, you find out who you really are"
 

Burt

Member
This is grand theft auto with robots. When an NPC gets run over in game and screams, my reaction is the same with the hosts.

Ah yes, I too fear the day when someone's save file gets too big and the NPCs of Los Santos finally make good on their innate potential for consciousness that we've been beating down by virtue of our limited playtimes.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
Ah yes, I too fear the day when someone's save file gets too big and the NPCs of Los Santos finally make good on their innate potential for consciousness that we've been beating down by virtue of our limited playtimes.

That's not my point. I get they are conscious. I feel empathy because conscious beings are basically prisoners. However, I feel nothing when one is shot, stabbed, beheaded, etc. Why? Because they're robots, they feel nothing (as far as we know at this point), and ultimately are repaired as if nothing happened.
 

Nipo

Member
That's not my point. I get they are conscious. I feel empathy because conscious beings are basically prisoners. However, I feel nothing when one is shot, stabbed, beheaded, etc. Why? Because they're robots, they feel nothing (as far as we know at this point), and ultimately are repared as if nothing happened.

So if the singularity occurs and we can download our consciousness into clones it would be ok to murder someone? At this point the woken hosts are basically people. They have consciousness are able to make decisions for self preservation and have emotions not originally programmed.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
So if the singularity occurs and we can download our consciousness into clones it would be ok to murder someone? At this point the woken hosts are basically people. They have consciousness are able to make decisions for self preservation and have emotions not originally programmed.

Murder is different. The hosts never die. Ever. The real tragedy is they are conscious beings who ultimately end up in a giant storage shed forever.
 

Joni

Member
In the town it's a MMO with god mode enabled for every player. Outside of town it's single player RPG with all cheats on. Where is the fun part.
Majority of players will pretend they aren't on. The only players we haven't seen to be amazed are the two that have been there numerous times.
 
I get the whole emerging consciousness thing. I just don't feel anything for the hosts. They're fucking robots for hells sake. They don't have sex for pleasure, I'm not convinced they feel anything. The tragedy is that they are conscious and exist only for the pleasure of people. They cannot leave and cannot do as they please. Essentially they're robot prisoners. If you're tv was conscious, would you feel bad for changing the channel? These violent actions are nothing if they can't feel pain, they don't even die...

Edit: a better analogy is a pocket pussy. How do you rape a pocket pussy, it was designed for weirdos to fuck it. If it was a robot that gained consciousness, would it care?

I don't think this show is for you if you equate the robot characters to pocket pussy.
 

Makai

Member
Finished episode 1 and I'll read somebody's earlier reply to a post of mine after I finish episode 2. The differences from the movie are very interesting and they intentionally fooled movie watchers.
Teddy being a robot and Man in Black being a human.

Medieval World hype
 
Episode 2 Spoilers:

So I'm confused about something...
That gun that Dolores picked up at the end of the episode... Was that a real gun or just another of the fake ones they use in the park
?
 

turtle553

Member
The point is, the abuse is that they are prisoners. Not that they are shot, stabbed, or fucked. They don't feel anything... so I don't feel anything when "violent" things happen to them.

But what is it for a human to feel? Just a response that the brain has to external stimuli. If you are programmed to respond to external stimuli, what is the difference? To have a more realistic experience for the guests, the responses need to be natural and that is from having to process everything they interact with.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
But what is it for a human to feel? Just a response that the brain has to external stimuli. If you are programmed to respond to external stimuli, what is the difference? To have a more realistic experience for the guests, the responses need to be natural and that is from having to process everything they interact with.

There is a big difference. They are programmed to act a certain way. Programmed to act like they are in pain. Remember the rouge robot that was shot to hell? The milk drinking one with holes in his body? He clearly was not in any pain as he continued to run the program telling him to shoot other hosts.
 

TyrantII

Member
That's not my point. I get they are conscious. I feel empathy because conscious beings are basically prisoners. However, I feel nothing when one is shot, stabbed, beheaded, etc. Why? Because they're robots, they feel nothing (as far as we know at this point), and ultimately are repaired as if nothing happened.

You keep claiming they feel nothing and lack agency. You also keep failing to prove your claims. Although I'll grant were not there yet in terms of story "facts".

The show is obviously dancing around those issues right now for story telling purposes, but its pretty apparent that The show is about sentient AI androids.

I guess what's wierd to me is you don't care care now. But when the story says definitely that they do feel pain and do have agency, suddenly you will? That's wierd.
 
I only read the last 3 pages. But I am sure other have picked up the significance of Ed Harris's bullets.

He gives the synth girl real bullets in exchange of unlocking the quest. And Evan Rachel Wood synth digs up a real gun. This is how the robot rebellion begin.

There is still no stack in the whole story. I will give the show 2 more episodes to convince me. I can't take those two human management actors any more. They belongs to a different show. You know which two overactors I am talking about.
 
Really enjoyed the first two episodes. Interested to see where they go with the
MIB's quest for the maze. My guess is they've created a hidden storyline for him so he keeps paying.
 

turtle553

Member
There is a big difference. They are programmed to act a certain way. Programmed to act like they are in pain. Remember the rouge robot that was shot to hell? The milk drinking one with holes in his body? He clearly was not in any pain as he continued to run the program telling him to shoot other hosts.

He was malfunctioning and also running outside his program showing he had some kind of consciousness about his past and not dying this time. Having his own desires that he wasn't supposed to.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
You keep claiming they feel nothing and lack agency. You also keep failing to prove your claims. Although I'll grant were not there yet in terms of story "facts".

The show is obviously dancing around those issues right now for story telling purposes, but its pretty apparent that The show is about sentient AI androids.

I guess what's wierd to me is you don't care care now. But when the story says definitely that they do feel pain and do have agency, suddenly you will? That's wierd.

The show hasn't shown that they feel pain. In fact it seems to show that they don't. So when Teddy gets shot to "death" and reappears unharmed the next day, I don't feel any empathy in regards to what lead to his "violent" (and extremely temporary) "death."

If the show leads to the hosts actually feeling pain, these scenes will have some impact. Until then, I haven't been convinced any actual harm is committed when the hosts are "killed." Admittedly, this is where the show loses me. These scenes have absolutely no impact (for me). I felt way more empathy when I saw all the robots in storage. Conscious beings trapped in a storage container for who knows how long. That terrifies me. It seems as if they are stored away as soon as they start to become conscious.
 

turtle553

Member
The show hasn't shown that they feel pain. In fact it seems to show that they don't. So when Teddy gets shot to "death" and reappears unharmed the next day, I don't feel any empathy in regards to what lead to his "violent" (and extremely temporary) "death."

If the show leads to the hosts actually feeling pain, these scenes will have some impact. Until then, I haven't been convinced any actual harm is committed when the hosts are "killed." Admittedly, this is where the show loses me. These scenes have absolutely no impact. I felt way more empathy when I saw all the robots in storage. Conscious beings trapped in a storage container for who knows how long. That terrifies me. It seems as if they are stored away as soon as they start to become conscious.

The third time he wakes in the pilot after the saloon shootout he immediately grabs his chest where he was shot the day before. Showing he felt it still even after being reset.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
The third time he wakes in the pilot after the saloon shootout he immediately grabs his chest where he was shot the day before. Showing he felt it still even after being reset.

Maybe. That's a good point. I took it as him just remembering he was shot after his reset, not necessarily feeling any pain. Either way, it shows he's definitely becoming conscious. I hope the show does more to clarify.
 
Just watched the second episode. So fucking good. I love the use of repetition, and the slight variations along the way. Two masterfully directed episodes in a row thus far.


There is still no stack in the whole story. I will give the show 2 more episodes to convince me. I can't take those two human management actors any more. They belongs to a different show. You know which two overactors I am talking about.
Seems like you're watching a different show than the rest of us.
 

DrEvil

not a medical professional
This setup of the Westworld does nothing for me.

In the town it's a MMO with god mode enabled for every player. Outside of town it's single player RPG with all cheats on. Where is the fun part.

I think the impending malfunction will change this... considering what's her face killed a fly, when it was heavily telegraphed that they couldn't hurt said flies, or anything for that matter.
 

Seesaw15

Member
He says that he was
"born in this game"
or something along those lines. I think he may be evidence of
host/Newcomer hybrids.

I think
The Man in Black
is referring to a metaphorical birth. Like he found out who he really was while playing and became a new person.

I think a lot of people are over thinking The Man in Black because of the movie but the show did mention how Occam's Razor is useless in this scenario so anything goes.
 

KahooTs

Member
When he took main chick back to the barn to rape he said he wasn't paying all this money because he wants easy. I don't see how they explain that away to make him something other than a paying customer.
 
When he took main chick back to the barn to rape he said he wasn't paying all this money because he wants easy. I don't see how they explain that away to make him something other than a paying customer.
I doubt he raped her. From what we've seen of him, Harris' character doesn't seem like he's there to appease sick desires like that. He has a higher purpose than that.
 
The point is, the abuse is that they are prisoners. Not that they are shot, stabbed, or fucked. They don't feel anything... so I don't feel anything when "violent" things happen to them.
But if they are abused because they are prisoners, then all those other things would be abuse also. I mean, they don't feel imprisoned since their memory is wiped every few weeks or so. They don't know they are imprisoned.
 

Makai

Member
I doubt he raped her. From what we've seen of him, Harris' character doesn't seem like he's there to appease sick desires like that. He has a higher purpose than that.
He did say "this is why I keep coming back here" when he slaughtered the Mexican cousins.
 

bounchfx

Member
This setup of the Westworld does nothing for me.

In the town it's a MMO with god mode enabled for every player. Outside of town it's single player RPG with all cheats on. Where is the fun part.

I mean.. the story? the characters? the mysterys and world they are building? it's all quite interesting to me at least. I'm not sure why you feel the need to boil it down to game similarities when it's...not a game. you can draw comparisons but I feel like it stops there. the fun part is what they do with it. we're also only at episode 2 (and it's already been quite entertaining, can't wait to see where they take it)
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
This setup of the Westworld does nothing for me.

In the town it's a MMO with god mode enabled for every player. Outside of town it's single player RPG with all cheats on. Where is the fun part.

It's obviously building up to the robots being able to fight back.

It seems like a very premature complaint when the show is only 2 episodes in.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
But if they are abused because they are prisoners, then all those other things would be abuse also. I mean, they don't feel imprisoned since their memory is wiped every few weeks or so. They don't know they are imprisoned.

They are starting to know they exist for the amusement of the guests and then they are moved into a storage shed (essentially). Which is so much worse imo.
 
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