I thought they implied it wasn't an immediate reaction, which is what concerned them. That he brought the photo back to the house and was actually thinking about it and forming an idea of some sort before "breaking," instead of having an immediate reaction to the photo when he first picked it up.
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- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
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I thought they implied it wasn't an immediate reaction, which is what concerned them. That he brought the photo back to the house and was actually thinking about it and forming an idea of some sort before "breaking," instead of having an immediate reaction to the photo when he first picked it up.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
That's what I took away from it also. That the father was thinking about it
Whatever, I don't think the hosts are feeling anything when they are shot. I think they scream in response because they are programmed to, that's it. You're getting into semantics. I don't feel bad when they are physically harmed because I don't think they feel anything (and it clearly has no lasting physical effects).
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm excited because I think it is maybe a much deeper examination of machine consciousness then people are initially giving it credit for. It could shit the bed, obviously, but its so refreshing to have a series that seems to be starting from "well of course if they're this highly advanced then they're capable of consciousness, even if they do have hardcoded submissive routines" instead of spending a ton of time hemming and hawing over "but can a robot ever like, really think maaaan?"
You're wrong though. They do feel it. If they don't -feel- anything and the reaction is scripted, they wouldn't have phantom pain from memories. I don't see how this is semantics at all. It's not just being shot. Falling, being punched, being stabbed, etc. It's not a scripted reaction because you cannot script for every possibility. With this level of realism, you would simply simulate pain in the core code and let them react to that instead. That's what the show has been depicting.
You are equating that the fact that they can be repaired after being physically damaged is a sign to you that they don't experience actual pain simulation. I'm pointing out that the two are completely unrelated because one is a physically upkeep issue and the other is a programming issue.
True, I agree.
Also anyone else just feel like Ed Harris is just going full "Dark Side" "Renegade" Bioware route? He keeps reminding of my asshole playthourgh on Mass Effect.
Has it? Again, the villain host had gun shot holes in his body and didn't react at all. Clearly, they cannot actually be killed or harmed as they are back in action the next day. Nothing on this show has convinced me that they have a nervous system and can feel anything.
DangerMouse
Member
Always thinking of Breakout Kings when seeing Jimmi Simpson, heh.
Yup, that wake up scene is nightmare fuel.
Yeah, as a sci-fi fan I'm excited to see where it's going, and it's true it's very interesting that they are starting where a lot of these stories end.
Yup, that wake up scene is nightmare fuel.
Yeah, as a sci-fi fan I'm excited to see where it's going, and it's true it's very interesting that they are starting where a lot of these stories end.
It seems to me that one of the main ideas the show is going to explore is what happens when you create an entity that can feel pain and feelings, one that is designed to live different personas throughout it's lifespan, and multiple "lives" where it can befall any number of gruesome and horrific attacks/injuries/deaths, and resets each cycle to a clean state in perpetuity. And then what happens when you give that thing long term memory on accident, so it remembers all that shit and maybe becomes self aware. The trauma would be immense.
They are designed not to carry over anything from previous cycles, but that doesn't mean they aren't "feeling" things in the moment. And now the issue is that the update seems to have hard coded the idea of memories from previous cycles carrying over into new cycles, and giving them the ability to think beyond their scripted scenarios and situations and become self aware to some extent, creating new thoughts and even lying.
They are designed not to carry over anything from previous cycles, but that doesn't mean they aren't "feeling" things in the moment. And now the issue is that the update seems to have hard coded the idea of memories from previous cycles carrying over into new cycles, and giving them the ability to think beyond their scripted scenarios and situations and become self aware to some extent, creating new thoughts and even lying.
A person hopped up on pain killers or adrenaline might not feel many serious injuries as well. Some people with damaged nerves can not feel pain at all. Pain can be reprogrammed or misprogrammed in humans just as easily.
Sure they can. However, you cannot bring a person back to life or fix them instantly when they break an arm or get stabbed/shot/maimed. Anyway, I'm out. I cannot possibly convince anyone of how I feel (obviously). So I'm done talking about it. I'll just have to agree to disagree.
Cornballer
Member
Reviews:
- Onion A|V Club review
- Sepinwall
- Washington Post
- Rolling Stone
- The Week
- NY Mag
Interviews and other content:
- EW: Westworld showrunners talk second episode twists
- IGN: Westworld Creators are Working on S2 Stories (NYCC panel recap)
- THR interview with Thandie Newton
- THR from the NYCC panel
- LA Times interviews Jeffrey Wright
- NY Mag on the NYCC panel
Videos:
- "In the weeks ahead" / Ep 3 preview (please spoiler tag any discussion)
- Onion A|V Club review
- Sepinwall
- Washington Post
- Rolling Stone
- The Week
- NY Mag
Interviews and other content:
- EW: Westworld showrunners talk second episode twists
- IGN: Westworld Creators are Working on S2 Stories (NYCC panel recap)
- THR interview with Thandie Newton
- THR from the NYCC panel
- LA Times interviews Jeffrey Wright
- NY Mag on the NYCC panel
Videos:
- "In the weeks ahead" / Ep 3 preview (please spoiler tag any discussion)
Yes it clearly shows that hosts like Teddy and Maeve experience phantom pain when remembering past deaths due to the bug. This is not a programmed response because they feel the part of the body they were hurt in. The guy with gunshot wounds was completely broken and insane, so I don't think that tells us much. Even for humans, there are cases where pain receptors either malfunction or are ignored complete by the brain in certain circumstances. We see this in religious festivals when people impale themselves, walk on hot coals, crucify themselves, etc. We see this in cases where people go berserk in battle with bloodlust, able to ignore any sort of injury to keep fighting. Being able to turn off or ignore pain doesn't necessarily mean there is no pain being simulated or that the pain is exclusive to certain things. It's important to read the situation.
The problem is that you keep bringing this up. Why do you keep equating pain with physical harm? It's not the same thing. It's fine to feel that you are not bothered if there is no permanent physical harm. Lack of empathy maybe, but understandable. It's another thing to try and argue that because something can be repaired easily, that they don't actually feel pain. Do you have difficulty grasping the concept that pain as we know is is COMPLETELY a psychological reaction that has nothing to do with actual physical harm being done? I'm not saying this to be difficult, I'm trying to explain why your argument is not getting any support. The way you are arguing it is factually incorrect.
Yes serious wounds usually take a while for humans to recover from but do you really believe that medicine will not arrive at a point where many wounds will become trivial to fix? Does that mean our feelings of pain will become meaningless? I don't see how the time for recovery affects the criteria for feeling actual pain as well. A paper cut is a minor wound but damn do they often hurt like a B.
Have we already discussed the importance of things planted in the ground throughout the park?
1st is the photo that Abernathy finds.
2nd is the gun that Dolores digs up.
3rd is something not uncovered but suggested, when Ford is stamping on the ground, just when the roaming bored child finds him.
4th is when we see just the steeple part of a church which suggests that an entire building rests below ground.
All of this points to two huge story implications:
A) the park is built on top of the buried corpse of some prior setting - maybe a previous version of the park. Perhaps this is like Seattle where the original infrastructure/deign proved to be fatally problematic and they literally had to bury the city and build a new version above it. This further implies that the maze is literally underground, in the bones of the original park. Was this the consequence of the great event that took place 30 years ago? Are these the demons that Ford is fighting? Is this the past coming back to haunt them?
B) If Bernie is acting as Ford's agent to manipulate his creations towards their own version of evolution then maybe Ford is planting items in the ground that will help catalyze the change. He seems to know where old things are buried.
1st is the photo that Abernathy finds.
2nd is the gun that Dolores digs up.
3rd is something not uncovered but suggested, when Ford is stamping on the ground, just when the roaming bored child finds him.
4th is when we see just the steeple part of a church which suggests that an entire building rests below ground.
All of this points to two huge story implications:
A) the park is built on top of the buried corpse of some prior setting - maybe a previous version of the park. Perhaps this is like Seattle where the original infrastructure/deign proved to be fatally problematic and they literally had to bury the city and build a new version above it. This further implies that the maze is literally underground, in the bones of the original park. Was this the consequence of the great event that took place 30 years ago? Are these the demons that Ford is fighting? Is this the past coming back to haunt them?
B) If Bernie is acting as Ford's agent to manipulate his creations towards their own version of evolution then maybe Ford is planting items in the ground that will help catalyze the change. He seems to know where old things are buried.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'll echo others in saying the acting from some of the staff is a bit cringeworthy though. That one assistant girl's delivery of "the fuck would be the point of that?" stood out, and a fair amount of asshole creative director was underwhelming this episode (though "did you like any of it?" was perfect)
Domcorleone
Member
Honestly it sounds like you just don't want to be proven wrong and so you want to double down despite all the evidence to the contrary. You are conflating the experience of pain with physical trauma and they are not one in the same.
I can't take the guy seriously because it feels like they told the actor to play the role as a stereotypical young tech startup douchebag, and the writers decided to put "fuck" in every sentence he says. It's so comic.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
yeah its the "fucks" that keep taking me out of it actually, for both of them its too tryhard
Also more evidence that the staff are aware of some level of conscious ability, even if they don't want to acknowledge it: she says they gave the hosts "the concept" of nightmares so that they would ascribe unusual memories to being "nightmares". Again, some high level operation there, and an indication that they can't fully, for example, just tell them to "forget anything that doesn't fit"
Yeah I was thinking about that. These items are likely being planted, how would Dolores know where to find that gun? Did she bury it in a past life such as during the time of the troubles 30 years ago? Or was she told of its location by someone in the present?
You misunderstand me. I want the "why" for not burning the host, for this response.
If they acted in pain regardless, why wouldn't you continue to burn them for money?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm guessing Ford is, if not orchestrating this, at least deliberately setting it all in motion. The more I think about the way that stuff is being triggered by a specific code phrase, the more it seems to me like something designed to remain from the update even after it was rolled back
I'll have to watch it again later, but from what I recall it seemed like they were talking about something they came across while studying all the footage, but didn't want to show the audience? But it's possible I misinterpreted it because what you said makes a lot more sense. The idea that thinking about it caused the breakdown would suggest that the thought itself was the problem, and spreading the seed of that thought to other hosts could replicate it.
andythinkpad
Member
I agree with what you said. If these synths are bio-engineered or cloned in a lab, it's easy to identify them as human siblings and feel sympathy for them. But these robots are 3D printed. They can not precious separated copies. They can be easily repaired. A robot getting raped and "killed" on a daily basis is not the same as a human being raped. I don't even know if the robot can tell the difference between being raped or just have sex to pleasure the guests.
BTW, I can't remember the last time a sci-fi show portrait robots with red blood and human like internal organs. The show runner surely is trying to make TV audiences feel for the robots.
Because I'm referring to physical harm and how I have no empathy for beings that cannot feel physical harm? We as humans have nerves, tasked with sensing pain. They send messages to the spinal cord that pain has occurred; the worse the harm, the more rapidly and powerfully they fire. The spinal cord then releases neurotransmitters to the brain's thalamus, communicating with the brain that there's an injury. The thalamus then forwards the message on to the part of the brain that manages physical sensation and we have physical pain. I have no reason to believe the hosts contain these things.
There's some seriously underdeveloped empathy going on here. Reading this thread makes me fear a future where robots gain self-awareness. If the level of empathy on display by some people is any indication, AI is going to be fucked over so hard by humans.
I guess that's one of the great things about fictional shows like this. Gives us a chance to comprehend and debate situations like this in the hypothetical, before it becomes our reality.
I guess that's one of the great things about fictional shows like this. Gives us a chance to comprehend and debate situations like this in the hypothetical, before it becomes our reality.
I may be remembering wrong since I've got some serious jet lag right now, but I thought that they reviewed footage of other hosts that came across anachronistic guest materials from the outside world and "broke," and what was different in this case was that he didn't have an immediate reaction like those past cases but sat on the porch thinking about it for hours.
What about in animals that don't share the same biology and neurology as humans, and process pain in a totally different way, without those various parts of the brain and nervous system? Do you think their pain is diminished and less deserving of our empathy because it is perceived in a different way?
If not, why should it be any different for a robot that processes pain in a different, but similar way to humans?
I just don't understand why pain matters at all if you are only concerned with long term physical damage. Like, why is it even a factor? Pain doesn't automatically equate to harm at all. There are many methods of simulating high levels of pain with minimal levels of physical harm, so you keep someone alive and intact but make them extremely uncomfortable or in great pain. That's the basis of professional torture techniques. It is also possible to do great physical harm without a person feeling a thing. Pain is not a factor at all in determining how badly damaged someone is or how long lasting the effects of the damage is.
You said that if a host is programmed to feel actual pain of an iron regardless of who uses it, then you would not torture them with an iron. But why? There will be no long term physical harm regardless. They can just be repaired. Why does the pain matter at all to you? You should have just said pain is irrelevant in your decision making process, but apparently it was. If the experience of pain is important to you, then you have to understand and accept that pain is a simulation, and even without a biological nervous system like ours, it can it simulated in the same way in a fabricated robot.
Pain matters when I see a host get shot and "die." I dont feel bad when they get shot cause it's not hurting them. That's my whole point. I cannot feel empathy for them when I see them get shot or stabbed because they don't feel anything.
But the hosts have an immediate reaction to that pain sensation. Like, I'm pretty sure one of the core intents of the show is for the viewer to ponder where a distinction between an artificial intelligence feeling programmed pain and actual human pain even lies? Like at a certain point there is no meaningful difference, right? At some point the mechanism for how the pain is delivered doesn't really matter when the reaction to that pain has appropriate consequence to the individual experiencing it. (And this is only touching on physical pain by the way, it's been implied the hosts can feel emotional pain and fear of loss, when their loved ones are in danger or die.)
I would think all you need for empathy is that simple idea, and then imagining you, as a human person as you are now, slowly waking up to the realization that you have lived many lives, lives as different people even, and been maimed, killed, and abused in all manner of ways for decades. That other people are taking advantage of you in that way, that you are just disposable entertainment to them and can be thrown out when need be. You feel pain, you remember that pain inflicted on you in the past and that trauma is with you now in the present. That seems like that would be shitty to me. I wouldn't want to experience it.
Also, you can't point to the one dude drinking the milk who went on a killing spree as evidence the hosts don't feel pain. That dude was malfunctioning, and there was a whole lot of other shit going on there. He seemed to be remembering past cycles where his partner repeatedly took advantage of him and decided to get revenge for that. His prime motivation in that moment was to not be the lackey who is taken advantage of, and instead be the one doling out the punishment, a feeling which overrode any other "programming."
Seriously? You have as much empathy for a host as you would a tree? Wow.
I think you're placing too much value in biological systems, and not enough in synthetic systems that closely mimic them.
Definitely.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
You know, for all the problems I have with the show, and there are a decent number, I can't get it out of my head.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Exact same
I really don't understand what you are trying to argue here. You keep saying that they feel nothing and you compare them to a tree. A tree doesn't react, a tree doesn't talk, a tree as far as we are aware has no consciousness of any sort.
You see really hung up on the concept of a nervous system. As in some sort of physical manifestation of nerves. But we have every reason to believe that these do in fact exist. You have to be able to feel to react. Which means their entire skin layer at the very least is covered with nerve detectors. It isn't just a matter of pain, it's a matter of reaction in an absolute sense. If someone touches them from behind, or rubs their back, they have to react to it. How does it work? The body has to be able to "feel" where it is being touched. If not, they won't know they're being touched at all if they cannot see it. So they clearly do feel. Don't you see that?
They have physical discomfort. The employee who was changing her personality, commented that she had physical discomfort in her abdomen. Then, it was discovered that she had MRSA. So that brings up interesting questions about their biological system and suggests that they do "feel".
I think the interesting bit in the show is that the raw abuse of any host (or possibly person) doesn't matter. It's the memories and psycological trauma that weighs on a real living creature. The "reveries" or rather the introduction of their ability to remember past experiences turns what may have first been morally ok into morally questionable territory.
Once a being can make choices for themselves, have goals for their own survival and success, and can remember past experiences good or bad and change with them.... they've basically become people. Most of the institute can't even be held accountable because they probably think of them as fancy animatronics. Real dolls with animations and directives.
It's that Hopkins guy that is bored and probably trying to actually create life
Once a being can make choices for themselves, have goals for their own survival and success, and can remember past experiences good or bad and change with them.... they've basically become people. Most of the institute can't even be held accountable because they probably think of them as fancy animatronics. Real dolls with animations and directives.
It's that Hopkins guy that is bored and probably trying to actually create life
I think the question the show is asking is:
When a host gets shot, suffers pain, and dies, is it that the AI just executing a bunch of "pain" and "death" scripts intended to make the humans observing it believe in the performance, like an ultra advanced NPC from a video game.
Or is there an actual conscious artificial being in there, for which the reactions are not scripted and reflect actual suffering of the AI?
Or does it matter? Is there even a difference between artifice and reality, if the artifice is close enough to the real thing? (The show even asks this question explicitly in the second episode.)
When a host gets shot, suffers pain, and dies, is it that the AI just executing a bunch of "pain" and "death" scripts intended to make the humans observing it believe in the performance, like an ultra advanced NPC from a video game.
Or is there an actual conscious artificial being in there, for which the reactions are not scripted and reflect actual suffering of the AI?
Or does it matter? Is there even a difference between artifice and reality, if the artifice is close enough to the real thing? (The show even asks this question explicitly in the second episode.)
Here's a thought experiment.
Scientists perfectly simulate a human being, atom for atom, inside a computer.
Scientists have the ability control every aspect of the simulated reality. They use this ability to stimulate the simulated human's brain and nervous system exactly as though they were being tortured.
Is this ethical behaviour? Why or why not?
Scientists perfectly simulate a human being, atom for atom, inside a computer.
Scientists have the ability control every aspect of the simulated reality. They use this ability to stimulate the simulated human's brain and nervous system exactly as though they were being tortured.
Is this ethical behaviour? Why or why not?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
It was all that milk.
oktarb
Member
My gut predictions:
Hopkins and the Man in Black started the park together. Hopkins stumbled on a possible way to transfer human consciousness into a Host.There was a rift between them. Hopkins saw it as too powerful and also saw the the Man in black as a bad person. He hid the key to it all in the park looking for a successor to continue his work ala Willy Wonka. MiB immerses himself in the park looking for the secret he knows Hopkins hid. Since he's a founder he can do whatever he wants. Most people think he's just a little wacko but hey he's a founder or just super rich. The Hosts are starting to remember past "lives" because Hopkins is experimenting and putting final touches on his final project. New guy (McBoil) is the new hero and will challenge MiB.
Hopkins and the Man in Black started the park together. Hopkins stumbled on a possible way to transfer human consciousness into a Host.There was a rift between them. Hopkins saw it as too powerful and also saw the the Man in black as a bad person. He hid the key to it all in the park looking for a successor to continue his work ala Willy Wonka. MiB immerses himself in the park looking for the secret he knows Hopkins hid. Since he's a founder he can do whatever he wants. Most people think he's just a little wacko but hey he's a founder or just super rich. The Hosts are starting to remember past "lives" because Hopkins is experimenting and putting final touches on his final project. New guy (McBoil) is the new hero and will challenge MiB.
Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I wonder to what extent are the guests allowed to do what they want? If I recall correctly, one of the members of the security team asks his supervisor if they should interfere with Ed Harris because he has already killed so many hosts. Would they allow you to simply "Rape" a host beacause that's your fantasy. What if you're a sick fuck and want to have sex with host children. What are the limits and how are they enforced.
There's no definitive answer to that, just our speculation.
But based on what we've seen so far, as long as you're not harming or putting another guest in danger, or putting the interests of the company at risk, you can do whatever you want. Their entire ethos appears to be total freedom to do anything you want without consequences or judgement, including raping a host child, if you wanted.
When security mentioned the gunslinger, they only asked if they should "slow him down". They didn't want to stop him, and then the head of security said that he can have whatever he wants.
MrCunningham
Member
The only hint we have so far is the black hat and white hat decision that was made earlier. It seems like any guest with a white hat gets treated like a friendly acquaintance from the hosts, but a black hat guest is treated like an outlaw. The stranger is technically in character as a bad guy, and we see the hosts treat him as such. The bartender calls in reinforcements, for example. I think he technically is following the rules of the park, and can maim and kill any host he wants because he is in role and the people running security knows that.
But the stranger is also abusing his knowledge of hosts like they are game exploits, and he is secretly using it to find something that he wants.
I still am not sure what his overall role is in this show, but I do like the character and Ed Harris is pulling a great performance. In an odd way, Ed Harris is giving me flashbacks of his character in The Trueman show. Though in the Truman show he was playing Anthony Hopkins role as Christof.