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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
It's being lead and written by better writer ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
It could be a fake sky, but twice now in the show, there were lines that referenced "life evolving on THIS PLANET", which would indicate that they are on Earth.
The problem with going down the [x] could be fake route, is that it can go on forever. Is it possible the sky is fake? Sure. Is it likely the sky is fake? Depends on which theory you want to support. But then that can apply to everything. The people are fake. The animals are fake. If the sky is fake, then the desert is probably fake, and maybe the company is fake too, maybe the tech is fake. Omg it's all VR! Lol.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
For what it's worth I've always been team Earth, and I've never been particularly taken with the underground or underwater theories. An artificial island at least seems plausible to me though.
StopMakingSense
Member
duckroll is fake.
Not necessarily. The constellations would all look the same from anywhere in the solar system. I tend to think it's still on Earth, just noting the constellation doesn't necessarily prove it.
I think it is on Earth as well. But my problem with the above-ground or island theories is that it's awfully hard to keep real animals, birds, and insects from entering the park.
Life, uh, finds a way.
Unless the park is hermetically sealed under a dome or underground/underwater/in space, and all guests are decontaminated, and all foods are sterilized before being allowed into the park, how do you ensure the only real living things in the park are flies and humans (as stated in the park's Terms)?
If the park was on Earth and open to the sky, you'd expect insects to sneak in eventually. Ants, rats, birds, cockroaches, etc would eventually find their way in. Anything that can live on the scrap foods, garbage, or waste the human guests discard would survive, and potentially thrive.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I think some people are just swinging in the dark at theories so they can feel smart about it on the unlikely chance it occurs. Same exact thing was happening in last season's Game of Thrones thread with the material that hasn't been in the books. "It's dream. So and so is actually so and so. Yadda yadda yadda" Just look at this thread. Literally every human character has been speculated to be a host at some point. With no evidence supporting that. It's all just noise when you're looking at the show in that way. Westworld could be on Venus. But to the story they're telling, what difference does that make at this point? We know it's in the future. But literally nothing about the story changes if they're underwater or in space or anything. Until the story says it's relevant, it means nothing
Not everything has some big twist. Sometimes what you see is what you get.
Not everything has some big twist. Sometimes what you see is what you get.
Same here. Binged all of the thread Episodes at once and am I IN. So Far this isbvery up my alley
A lot of shows with a mystery elements always seem to go to this route. Where people will pick apart everything and always try to predict these huge twists based on small things that are likely unintentional.
personally i hope it doesn't do someone's a host the whole time twist with the characters we have so far. Especially since the show seems to be going the route of the hosts gaining sentience.
More_Badass
Member
It does, especially if they expand the series beyond the park in later seasons. Why the park would need to be underwater or off-world, why this kind of "natural splendor" that is so easily accessible now is such a luxury for people to experience in the show (paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to go fishing with your family?) , can be aspects of world-building
At late season sure but i think his point is that at this point the location doesn't matter whether if its in space or earth. Not that i agree or not.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
World building is important, but if I said that the show takes places on a moon of Jupiter, what does that change about what's going on now? You're still going away when you come to Westworld. It's an enclosed experience. At this point knowing that supplements the experience of the show, but it's like the least important thing being shown. The show clearly isn't about the technology specifically, it's about the nature of sentience. At what point do you decide that these things arent just tools for our pleasure.
But there is a point where obsessing over minute details does a disservice to the actual story being told. The location of the park will have relevance when the story calls for it to have relevance. Those aspects of the show are satellites whizzing around it. When they actually matter the show will have to specifically spell them out. Sorta like the constellation thing. If it's impossible for a host to know that because of their location, the show will say that. Otherwise it's just gravy
More_Badass
Member
True, but then where's the fun in speculation between episodes. That's why the discussion exists. Not some vague weirdly self-centered desire to "to feel smart" at some indeterminate time in the future, but because sci-fi is cool and discussing and imagining cool potential aspects in a high concept show like this is a lot of fun.
Okay, so speculation should only be about important stuff related to the immediate episodes? Who cares if people want to speculate about less important details? To say that it does a disservice to the actual story being told seems to assume that one can't consider the micro and macro aspects equally
Just because I like thinking about what the park seems to indicate about the world outside the park doesn't mean I'm not also considering Delores' and Maeve's struggles with their growing sentience
They made it an explicit plot point in the very first episode that the only non-hosts in the park are flies and guests.
If what that implies about where the park must be located and how it must be constructed is unimportant to the story, then the writing is way sloppier than I expected.
If what that implies about where the park must be located and how it must be constructed is unimportant to the story, then the writing is way sloppier than I expected.
All it suggests is that it's a highly controlled environment. I would say most theories about where it could be what it could be fits with that model. #TeamSpaceStation
That's not only intentional, it's the creator's highest priority so far. There have been pockets of drama with various degrees of success, very little emphasis on character relationships that aren't just primal. Not much character development. We've got all these discrete arcs with their own questions that are almost Game of Thrones like, except our characters aren't exactly on different continents.
The focus is first and foremost on creating intrigue and a buzz around the show. Individual acting and world building(to borrow a term) are ancillary, but that's about it. To reference another HBO show, this isn't like the mystery in season 1 of True Detective, the mystery and speculation surrounding it is almost the entire show.
And of course it's on the moon. I mean, they're next door over from the whalers.
Unless they specifically brought flies to the space station/moon/other planet and are allowing them to breed unchecked then I'm leaning towards Earth. Not sure why they'd introduce only one animal species into the environment and have that be flies. Presume they'd rather just not have them at all.
They have mentioned "this planet" twice when talking about evolution. It's not definitive and doesn't necessarily mean earth, but just something to think about.
Because that adds to the realism? I mean, their existence in the show is obvious from the narrative standpoint, but from the technical standpoint flies make it more real as a sterile Wild West would be grating.
Really, if flies naturally roamed the park then where are the other insects? Unless this is some weird post-apocalyptic Earth where only flies survived we should see more specis of bugs and other small animals beyond flies. It is oddly specific, which is why people take notice.
It's a figure of speech. Imagine the same conversation between two people on the ISS right now. It wouldn't be odd or out of place at all. The planet means Earth of course. There isn't life on other planets. Humanity came from Earth, evolution is exclusive to Earth as far as we know, so why would we say otherwise?
The same could be asked if this were an artificial dome under the ground, or some facility hidden under the sea. Why would you only introduce flies into the environment? Maybe the writers really liked using flies as a narrative metaphor and talking point for "living thing" in their programming and just didn't think that far into it.
I agree actually, just was thinking about it since it was repeated last episode. I know it was mentioned in an interview it involved terraforming, and earth wouldn't need that. A space station seems unlikely based on how huge west world seems to be. I think they are on our/a moon.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
What people talk about is none of my business. But there's obviously been a trend with modern audiences where they're so obsessed with looking for twists that they're disappointed if there isn't one. Let's take the Man in Black is William Theory. People have become so invested in thinking that, I guarantee there will be backlash from fans if the story is straightforward and the Man in Black is just an experienced park attendee and William is an audience surrogate meant to introduce us to how the park works.
World building is important, and it makes people even more invested in the world that is being created. My point is that I think people get so wrapped up in looking for clues and twists, that they totally miss what's going on in the show. Theories based off zero evidence are the definition of guessing blindly to feel smart on the off chance it is correct. If you're approaching every episode looking for more clues that prove that even the employees are hosts, chances that the actual statements the show is trying to make are going to sail past you.
I honestly couldn't care less where Westworld is, but more power to people that like that stuff. I was here in the Lost days, I'm all about stuff like that. It's just a little disheartening to see more discussion about twists than the themes of the show.
What rules out the moon, unless you assume Star Trek levels of technology (like artificial gravity generators), is that gravity seems to be Earth normal on the show.
The moon has less than 17% the gravity of Earth, which would be visually obvious.
So if Westworld is on a planet, it must be similar in mass to the Earth.
In the Solar system, that means Earth or Venus (or very possibly Mars but it has only ~40% Earth gravity which would likely also be visually obvious).
But Venus is extremely uninhabitable (the surface temperature is over 900f/480c) and terraforming it would require Star Trek levels of technology and/or a lot of time.
So that leaves just Earth.
Now rule out that they're on the moon... but in the matrix.
The A Cast of Kings podcast that recaps Game of Thrones episodes also has a podcast discussing Westworld episodes. It's called 'Decoding Westworld', I've only listened to the first episode and it's basically the same as A Cast of Kings. If you like that you'd probably like Decoding Westworld.
So it's an hours worth of people complaining about the book being better?
The real reason why the show has to be set on Earth is that there just isn't a reason for them to suddenly reveal it's set on another planet or similar. It wouldn't add anything to the show's narrative, wouldn't make a difference to what's going on in the park and would be an unnecessary level of complication.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
I need help. I've been watching \W/estworld and i can appreciate its high production values and great performances (Dolores' original father was particularly terrific) but I can't vibe with it well.
All in all, if anyone can just help me with the daily loop question as above, that would be great. Would love if I can vibe better with this show.
Thankies <3
(not sure if this was spoiler free or not so i just went the safe way) :>
So, first of all, the daily loop. Can someone explain this to me? Say you are a guest and you arrive at \W/estworld and then you see Dolores doing her grocery and dropping that can, then? You sleep.... then the next day, you wake up and you see the same routine done, and the next day after, and so on? Wouldn't that hint who's what?
What's the point of making the hosts as humanlike as possible if they are stuck in a narrative loop that gives them away? Like, wouldn't that break the immersion? Knowledge of who's real and who's not real tend to affect and alter human behaviours, I think...
I have other mini gripes, like how female and female relationships are displayed (first episode already have female technician kissing female host, whilst the male and male relationships are mostly hugging and touching / caressing and allusions), and how we see nudes in the series of mostly young and fit (and attractive) females but we dont see other body types of female nudes. (we see all kinds of nudes of the male hosts, in comparison). But those stuffs are expectable and I can brush them aside and keep on watching.
My last comment would be that the park seems to be catered towards a default male guest. I hope women will also be wealthy and a valid target market in this futuristic fiction world, but there has been nothing so far in the hosts or the narratives that seems to cater for this wealthy women demographic. If I am a guest (I'm a grill), I can say there seems to be nothing in \W/estworld that would make me stay a long time from what the show has shown me thus far.
But, all that aside... I have talked with a fellow gaffer on this on a chat and he helps me reorient my focus on his fascination about what would happen around the bend, because all of the current stuff can't go on forever, and it's obviously a set up for a huge tipping point of a story arc. So I look forward to that :> (Thank you, OceanicAir)
I am interested in the maze thing and in the Arnold thing. And I will keep watching and appreciating the show's good points. I really, really like the theme song. Very nice.
What's the point of making the hosts as humanlike as possible if they are stuck in a narrative loop that gives them away? Like, wouldn't that break the immersion? Knowledge of who's real and who's not real tend to affect and alter human behaviours, I think...
I have other mini gripes, like how female and female relationships are displayed (first episode already have female technician kissing female host, whilst the male and male relationships are mostly hugging and touching / caressing and allusions), and how we see nudes in the series of mostly young and fit (and attractive) females but we dont see other body types of female nudes. (we see all kinds of nudes of the male hosts, in comparison). But those stuffs are expectable and I can brush them aside and keep on watching.
My last comment would be that the park seems to be catered towards a default male guest. I hope women will also be wealthy and a valid target market in this futuristic fiction world, but there has been nothing so far in the hosts or the narratives that seems to cater for this wealthy women demographic. If I am a guest (I'm a grill), I can say there seems to be nothing in \W/estworld that would make me stay a long time from what the show has shown me thus far.
But, all that aside... I have talked with a fellow gaffer on this on a chat and he helps me reorient my focus on his fascination about what would happen around the bend, because all of the current stuff can't go on forever, and it's obviously a set up for a huge tipping point of a story arc. So I look forward to that :> (Thank you, OceanicAir)
I am interested in the maze thing and in the Arnold thing. And I will keep watching and appreciating the show's good points. I really, really like the theme song. Very nice.
All in all, if anyone can just help me with the daily loop question as above, that would be great. Would love if I can vibe better with this show.
Thankies <3
(not sure if this was spoiler free or not so i just went the safe way) :>
Do you think the series is designed to entirely take place in the park for the entire duration as it goes forward? Because that's an odd conclusion to make. Westworld could be a construct in space, that could have relevance to the nature of the park and the nature of Delos as a corporation, it could have relevance to the state of Earth itself and the state of human society in the future, it could have relevance on what the creators plan on doing with the narrative in future.
It could also be somewhere on Earth and all of the above would still apply. But there that doesn't really exclude the possibility. Most of the time early in a story, most unusual details "add nothing" to the immediate story, but that doesn't mean they don't have a reason to exist, especially in science fiction.
Guests don't go to Westworld to immerse themselves in something that is so real they cannot tell who is a robot and who isn't. They go to Westworld because they're rich and they want to blow their money on a western frontier simulator where they can win every gunfight and rape every person they take a liking to.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
so so so... their obsessions making the hosts as indistinguishable from humans as possible is.... moot? what is it for? the show seems to stress the importance of this endeavour from the get go. the reveries and their backstories, and so on.
are you saying the company just does it because of why not? (i can live with this and accept it, if so, but it would break the 'intelligence' writing aspect a bit for me)
Edit: also bolded part makes men sounds terrible in general. and and and... at the end of the day if that is all there is that they want, it's all weak PvE bs. PvP or bust pls >:E
also this thread, it is what i am saying that women market should be factored into the story: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1297627
"They" is not a very specific term. There are different people in the show with different agendas. If we knew what they were all thinking exactly and what they have planned, it wouldn't be very exciting to keep watching now would it.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
"They" i mean the writers, not the characters in the show, duckie.
Like, the writers inputted into the ww world that there is an entire department called "Behaviours" or something, in that company. They are written as if they are invested into making the hosts seem as humanlike as possible. But then, the daily loops seem to be counter-productive to this very idea.
Just made it off-footed for me. But I would love a good explanation.
However, if the explanation (on the behalf of the show's writers) is simply the company wants to make their hosts as humanlike as possible whilst the guests don't really care, then, I will roll with that.
I mean did you watch the show at all? It doesn't seem like a mystery. In the first episode, there's a character who literally argues against making the hosts more realistic, asking what the point is because the customers don't care, and in that same conversation it is suggested strongly that the management's interest in the technology used in Westworld has a purpose other than just running a theme park business. There's obviously something else going on.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
i did see some mild arguments between in-world characters. but too mild, so to speak. Whilst, on the other hand, there is an entire department existing in the company, and entire chunks of segments showing how 'realistic' the hosts are. as a profit-driven entity, to go ahead and invest so much in technology and employment costs (technicians and programmers and so on) for something that the guests are not even clamoring for seems to be ... not really good writing (for me).
... do you see what i mean by im not vibing with it well? :<
i want to like it though, but i feel a lot of offness with parts of it. the PvE stuff also dulls the edge of some of the confrontation scenes for me :<
okay, i've taken too much space for now. i will continue to watch and hope the story will pull into a different phase in which the focus wouldn't be about how very humans the hosts are and what does it really mean to be humans etc.
Haha, the first episode of the podcast wasn't like that. They were praising it and coming up with theories. The male host still has some dumb comments like he does on ACOK but other than that it was okay.
I don't think there's any question if the show will be renewed. It's just a formality at this point. Nothing to be concerned about.
blindrocket
Member
This is interesting.
http://imgur.com/r/westworld/t4eHLAf
Not looking at events in the show as the same timeline really adds some depth to try and figure things out.
http://imgur.com/r/westworld/t4eHLAf
Not looking at events in the show as the same timeline really adds some depth to try and figure things out.
As it stands, the narrative of the show is all about the hosts and their journey to self awareness and where that takes them. It doesn't matter if Westworld is in space, underwater, on another planet or anything like that. The story isn't about that. If it's revealed at some point that it's in space, what does that mean for the story of the show? It won't change how the hosts are becoming self aware, it doesn't change that guests come to visit for a holiday, it doesn't change the motivations of the employees. The story of the show carries on much the same as it would if it was anywhere else.
The show has done a decent job of layering mysteries to be revealed, but I think that leads viewers to spot mysteries where they aren't there. If the show were to suddenly turn out to be about life in space and what happened to the Earth and all that, then what would that turn the show into? It would either change the story of the show away from following the hosts to "what's life like in space" or it wouldn't add anything at all. It's on Earth because the show isn't about humans moving into space, it's about developing artificial consciousness and the consequences of that.
blindrocket
Member
I'm wondering if Robert Ford will turn out more to be the villain, where the Man In Black is really not the bad guy, he has a line that says he's trying to set the Hosts free. And Ford said he would not consider himself a friend to Dolores, which isn't purely admission to anything, but it could be...
My impression is hosts are doing their daily routine, making themselves available to the guests to essentially accept a quest. Some of these quests, like Dolores' thing, only take a day, others are longer. Dolores is in town doing chores waiting for a chivalrous cowboy(even if she doesn't know it), the sheriff is recruiting a posse to go after bad guys etc.
Sure, Dolores drops her groceries every day, but what are the chances a random guest picks up on that? We are shown that sequence time and time again, but as a guest, you would have to be in the thoroughfare watching closely day after day, assuming Dolores doesn't get knocked off her thing before that point.
There also seem to be events that don't happen every day. The hack script writer moves up the bandit/outlaw attack on town ahead of schedule(and makes it bloodier) to cover up a recall in the first episodes. He was also planning some Indian narrative that would take time to build up before Ford axed it. There also seem to be multiple layers to some of the hosts, again much like an RPG, like Teddy running women and obviously whatever game the man in black is playing.
So there ya go, I think of it as a more capable and complex Fallout 4.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
I guess... *mulls it over* IDK, i think the fault is with me, probably. The bulk of its intended audience probably aren't gamers? But if people have played enough rpgs, quest givers and routine NPCs kind of stick out. Specially in a small town where the main thoroughfare is only one main street...
On top of that, there is allusions that a few storylines have happened multiple, multiple times
(The Man in Black inferring to Dolores of his past frequent atrocity, Teddy has died over and over again as mentioned by Ford, and so on)
But thank you for possible explanation. I appreciate it :>
In general, I think the show is moving ON and AWAY from the 'established routine' arc
(where Dolores is now starting to make different choices and rode away from the bandits that raided her house)
I look forward to where the story is going :]
Extra Sauce
Member
When a host inevitably decides to escape Westworld, it's going to matter where Westworld is located.
blindrocket
Member
Here's how Westworld de-aged Anthony Hopkins
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2016-10-18/heres-how-westworld-de-aged-anthony-hopkins
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2016-10-18/heres-how-westworld-de-aged-anthony-hopkins
The fault is not yours, ground rules haven't been set up well. For example, we essentially never see guests who are strangers interacting with each other. Some host(who is presumably not affected by recent aberrant behavior) tackles the man in black, how does that work? You make a good point about putting hosts who have been killed going back into circulation. We have to assume it takes time to rebuild them, so you wouldn't see them the next day, but who knows?
To be fair, a lot of Westworld is set up to be surface deep. That's why the western theme works, the complexity of daily life would expose it. When the man in black says to some host that they're only really good at basic stuff like suffering he's alluding to that.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Yes, I do recall the Man in Black saying that they are only good at basic stuff, though this seems to run counter against how humanlike Dolores feels to the audience (or at least, to me). But I do like your perspective on this. Maybe only a handful of hosts are 'humanlike'? The ones with 'reveries' and established 'background story'. Though, to me as an audience, Dolores being referred to as one of the basic ones is a bit jarring. She's almost the heart and face and soul of the show, if you know what I mean ... haha~
As for Teddy coming back, he returned within and during William's stay (in the same episode) so yea, that one was a little odd choice of writing... but maybe, the team already observed William didn't really care or didnt really engage with that particular host so his return wouldn't bother that particular guest. Other guests, though? Would they have noticed? Would they have minded / complained?
Multiple guests' satisfaction would be very difficult to meet, I think.
Oh, your point about guests interacting with each other also occurred to me! You are right, we never quite see guests who are strangers interacting with each other. When I play mmorpg, I am mostly about interacting with other players, but I guess WW is more like Disneyland, where I am not very interested in talking to other visitors, but where I wanna have fun riding the rides and so on.... I guess it isn't like mmorpg though, where players would treat NPCs and quest givers just as 'tools' of advancement.... although William's friend do seem to regard them very demeaningly (the way he treated that old man at their dinner, etc.) ...
Anyway
thank you for the discussion <3 I think you've brought up really good points and I will mull over them.