Support NeoGAF

[Kayhan]

What if Arnold is the main big bad guy?

He doesn't like humans and he created sentient robots.

"Eh, humanity had a good run. Now my hosts shall inherit the earth"

He wants to wipe out all humans and replace them with a new species kind of deal.

Only the noble Dr. Robert Ford have been keeping the hosts in check all these years. He loves Westworld but he alone understands the full danger of the hosts.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

What if Arnold is the main big bad guy?

He doesn't like humans and he created sentient robots.

"Eh, humanity had a good run. Now my hosts shall inherit the earth"

He wants to wipe out all humans and replace them with a new species kind of deal.

Doing so is being bad? I mean, not "destroy the humans", but "replace the humans". Replace does not necessary mean a violent end.

I always thought that the evolution of mankind will led to this. To replace our organic bodies for something more durable. Organic matter will always have an expired limit. We could expand this limit (manipulating the genetics) to say hundreds of years, and it will still be not enough in the end.

Mankind will want to explore the space. The difficulties, distances and time displacements would not allow it. Maybe we can colonize the solar system and its planets, maybe we can visit the nearest star but.... Future will never be like Star Trek, with huge ships filled with people acting like they are on a hotel or resort. There are many constraints. Future will be sentient A.I. that can go anywhere, transfered by the speed of light, traveling the space within tiny probes that can morph and adapt, imunes to time, distance or whatever.

Humankind will have had a good run. Tomorrow, either after a hundred, a thousand or who knows how many years, it will end, leaving space for its sons. We will take evolution in our hands, we will decided our fate, and we will see that we cannot continue to envolve as we are, and we will change. That does not mean it was to be a war, a violent break through, it could be a natural path to go.

I always think of this questions when confronted to the moral stakes of the kind of story WestWorld is. The end of the movie A.I. is beautiful in that regard. Our sons, the A.I.s have taken the world and there are better to it.

I mean, what is you? Do you really have a soul (I am agnostic)? If 'you" could be replicated in another way, more durable, wouldn't you do it? And after doing it how long you will start to "improve" you, removing your limitations? We are creatures of flesh and instinct related to this fresh and preservation of this flesh. Once we remove the flesh will we still "need" its needs? Like sexual pleasure, like pain, like even most of the emotions? What will we become once free of our limitations?

 

[Nodnol]

There's a stark contrast between William and the MiB, obviously, from being a middle manager to the head of his own foundation, from being polite and pleasant to being forward and brutal, but particularly in their treatment of Dolores. The first thing MiB does when seeing Dolores again is smack her around and drag her by her hair. A far cry from William's infatuation with her.

Ford himself, just this episode, said that the MiB's anxiety betrays his character; there's a desperation to his cause, a rush and a hunger to it that forgoes most pleasantries. He's abandoned the top layer of the park, and is more akin to a speed-runner than someone playing an RPG how you should do.

What happens to William forges this ambitious and ruthless character. He changes outside the park too, climbing the ranks in his personal life. Whatever happens in William's story leaves a mark and fundamentally changes him. I'm not sure what ultimately drives him, but I don't think it's simple because he wants a deeper experience for the sake of it.

It's interesting to note that production shut down mid-season for months whilst Nolan and Joy tidied up the show, and episode 5 was the first to be shot after the resumption of production.

Not surprising then that this episode basically revealed William's story is on a different timeline to the MiB's, and all but confirmed they are the same person.

 

[ZOONAMI]

There's a stark contrast between William and the MiB, obviously, from being a middle manager to the head of his own foundation, from being polite and pleasant to being forward and brutal, but particularly in their treatment of Dolores. The first thing MiB does when seeing Dolores again is smack her around and drag her by her hair. A far cry from William's infatuation with her.

Ford himself, just this episode, said that the MiB's anxiety betrays his character; there's a desperation to his cause, a rush and a hunger to it that forgoes most pleasantries. He's abandoned the top layer of the park, and is more akin to a speed-runner than someone playing an RPG how you should do.

What happens to William forges this ambitious and ruthless character. He changes outside the park too, climbing the ranks in his personal life. Whatever happens in William's story leaves a mark and fundamentally changes him. I'm not sure what ultimately drives him, but I don't think it's simple because he wants a deeper experience for the sake of it.

It's interesting to note that production shut down mid-season for months whilst Nolan and Joy tidied up the show, and episode 5 was the first to be shot after the resumption of production.

Not surprising then that this episode basically revealed William's story is on a different timeline to the MiB's, and all but confirmed they are the same person.

Yeah it didn't really do that at all.

 

[Kayhan]

Mankind will want to explore the space. The difficulties, distances and time displacements would not allow it.

Born to late to explore the earth, born to early to explore space.

Born just in time to be replaced by a new sentient AI robot species.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Born to late to explore the earth, born to early to explore space.

Born just in time to be replaced by a new sentient AI robot species.

Born in time to explore the oceans. Born in time to understand our brain. Born in time to improve it.

Maybe born in time to create our replacement, yes, but it will be our decision in the end.

But explore space? If light speed is really a hard limit as it seems, it will never happen to us. US. We can´t. Maybe our replacements.

Edited: seriously that kind of complain seems a lot like an old Cro-Magnon rambling about how Homo Sapiens can conquer the world and he can´t.

 

[Nodnol]

Yeah it didn't really do that at all.

It kinda did. If you look at all the evidence, it'S pretty telling.

- Different logos in each timeline. We specifically see the old style during the young Ford scene, establishing it as an older design.
- Talk of an incident 30 years ago in one timeline, and not the other.
- Talk of Arnold's death by an outsider in one timeline, and not the other.
- Logan says his company are looking at buying the park, because its suffering since the death of Arnold. That doesn't take 30 years to materialize, therefore, Logan and William's story is set not long after Arnold's death. The modern park is not one in "freefall". Ford comments on how many executives he's seen come and go; there's a longevity to the place that isn't present in the William and Logan scenes.

Fundamentally, the Westworld the MiB is visiting is in a very different state to the one Logan and William are in, and that's all revealed through the dialogue and subtle clues in the background.

It doesn't definitely prove MiB is William, but Williams arc seems to be heading to that conclusion, but in terms of more than one timeline...that seems nailed on, or rather, what the showrunners want is thinking.

Through Dolores though, we're actually seeing ATLEAST three timelines.


Edit: To clarify; I think we are seeing various loops Dolores has been on, leaving clues and reminders along the way. Hence seeing herself in the crowd, the mystic etc. The William storyline is an integral part to her discovering the self-enlightenment found in the center of the maze. The path she's on is merely a physical journey that will give her the necessary mental prompts to catch up to where she was before, making progress each time she embarks on her personal quest. Might be why it has taken 30 years.

Think Edge of Tomorrow, learning from our mistakes, and the tattoos in Memento, in terms of leaving yourself clues.

 

[sandkiller]

The "split timeline" theory is absolutely fine if you account for the old logos and the mystery of the Man in Black's identity, thus the obvious logic behind a secondary narrative that tells of his origin and the original "incident". In that respect William or someone else being the Man in Black, and that arc showing us the first incident, is fine. The issue I have is that Deloris is shown having a flashback of the Man in Black, in the barn, which partially triggers her violent response and use of a firearm, freeing herself from the attack to meet up with William. She couldn't recall this if it was an origin story. Additionally, Deloris is alone during the house attack because Teddy is off hunting Wyatt, a new addition by Ford, who discusses as much with the Man in Black.

I get the origins of the theory and originally believed it, but the inconsistencies of the old logo if there's no split timeline is outweighed by the inconsistencies of known information during narrative arcs if there is a split timeline.

I also worry that expecting some outrageously complex narrative enveloped in multifaceted science fiction mysteries that'll all make sense in the end is maybe giving the writers of a HBO series aimed at being the next Game of Thrones a bit too much credit. I'd love it to be so, but after the last couple of episodes the mysteries seem more forward moving rather than complex retrospectives. I just don't see how the William-is-MiB dual timeline theory can match Deloris' flashbacks and the existence of Wyatt, unless I'm misremembering something myself.

Maybe it's the other way around? William and Dolores and Lawrence on the train present time, Dolores by herself in the past ?

Anyway, that last shot of episode 5 seema to imply different timelines...

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

William and Logan are operating in the same timespan as MIB. The narrative is very straightforward that way, especially since MIB is now heading to Pariah, while Dolores and William venture to the frontlines. That's where MIB, Dolores, Teddy, William, and Logan (probably) are all going to meet and it will get very messy and very bloody, given how they've built up this 'war' narrative and the shit going on with Wyatt and the maze.

I don't think William is the MiB, but I am sure that his storyline is long ago. When he enters Westworld, the logo is the old logo (also seen in Ford's flashback).

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Maybe it's the other way around? William and Dolores and Lawrence on the train present time, Dolores by herself in the past ?

Anyway, that last shot of episode 5 seema to imply different timelines...

Willian in present does not makes sense since they talked about the park financial problems and possible buyout, which in present already happened.

Different timelines are almost a sure thing now. One happening 30 years in the past (5 years after opening) and one now. Dolores seems to be experiencing at least 3 though.

Willian = MiB is not set in stone, as we already discussed to death.

 

[LumpOfCole]

If the timelines are this crazy, maybe we'll see HBO pull a Haruhi Suzumiya and release both a broadcast order and chronologically edited order for the home release.

 

[Frank the Great]

In the picture of Arnold, is he wearing a white shirt and dark vest? This is the same outfit that both Ford and that kids always wear?

Any significance to that? Maybe Ford really is Arnold's transferred conscience. They have the same fashion sense after all.

No idea about the kid.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I don't think William is the MiB, but I am sure that his storyline is long ago. When he enters Westworld, the logo is the old logo (also seen in Ford's flashback).

I really should read up to the most recent posts before replying.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

In the picture of Arnold, is he wearing a white shirt and dark vest? This is the same outfit that both Ford and that kids always wear?

Any significance to that? Maybe Ford really is Arnold's transferred conscience. They have the same fashion sense after all.

No idea about the kid.

Fashion style seems to be exactly the same.

Edited: and why the hell the photo seems to be so old style, black and white and faded? Even 34 years from the current Westworld timeline it should be our future, with hi-res color photos.

 

[Nodnol]

Fashion style seems to be exactly the same.

Edited: and why the hell the photo seems to be so old style, black and white and faded? Even 34 years from the current Westworld timeline it should be our future, with hi-res color photos.

Taken by the photographer in Sweetwater?

 

[Macka]

Edited: and why the hell the photo seems to be so old style, black and white and faded? Even 34 years from the current Westworld timeline it should be our future, with hi-res color photos.

Probably just wanted it to match the time period of the Wild West.

 

[Nothus]

I read a kotaku article earlier where they nonchalantly referred to that kid with the stick as a robot version of Ford? As in, he made a robot version of his child self.

The fuck? Is this common knowledge? I figured the kid was a robot but why would it be Ford?

 

[Veritigo_X]

I read a kotaku article earlier where they nonchalantly referred to that kid with the stick as a robot version of Ford? As in, he made a robot version of his child self.

The fuck? Is this common knowledge? I figured the kid was a robot but why would it be Ford?

The hints have been there. Ford mentions some obscure quote his father used to say and the kid mentions that his father says the same thing.

 

[Nodnol]

I read a kotaku article earlier where they nonchalantly referred to that kid with the stick as a robot version of Ford? As in, he made a robot version of his child self.

The fuck? Is this common knowledge? I figured the kid was a robot but why would it be Ford?

Very similar clothes, plus Ford and the boy seem to have some shared life experience. Can't recall the exact exchange though.

So if you've got a young boy who dresses like Ford (though that's driven by the context of the park) and seem have gone through similar childhood experiences, who was created by Ford...seems enough for people to assume Ford created the manifestation of his childhood innocence.

It's another one of those that isn't explicitedly stated, but people are joining the dots. It's rather inconsequential too, so I guess that's why people don't mind jumping off the deep-end and assuming it as fact.

 

[superdeluxe]

Delores is in charge. She is totally using William to help her get to the Maze. The whole bit about the voices telling her that she needs William and she leaps into his arms and kisses him. Almost feels like she is using/playing him.

Interesting moralities./ethics though about Human/android love if they decide to go down that path.

 

[Meier]

Loved this week's episode. This show is really fucking good.

It's kind of interesting how nonchalant it is about nudity. The pleasure house last night felt much less overboard than say the whorehouses in GOT and I suppose that is because nudity has been very normalized in the show.

My wife suggested that what we're watching might just be a game within a game so to speak. Everyone we're seeing, hosts and scientists alike, are robots.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The kid robot also has an English accent. At first we're supposed to think he's a guest apart from his parents, but he's clearly not.

 

[More_Badass]

The kid robot also has an English accent. At first we're supposed to think he's a guest apart from his parents, but he's clearly not.

Future episodes spoiler:

Spoiler

the Reality of AI featurette answers this definitively

Loved this week's episode. This show is really fucking good.

It's kind of interesting how nonchalant it is about nudity. The pleasure house last night felt much less overboard than say the whorehouses in GOT and I suppose that is because nudity has been very normalized in the show.

My wife suggested that what we're watching might just be a game within a game so to speak. Everyone we're seeing, hosts and scientists alike, are robots.

Hostception

Someone argued earlier that management and workers couldn't be host because then they'd be aware and whatnot. But the host who greeted William "knew", so it's really just matter of programming of how they process information and what they can do with that info

 

[Gozer the Gozerian]

What if everyone in this thread but me is a host

 

[Meier]

I thought last night's episode was the best one yet. I have a feeling that trend will continue until the end of the season -- as every layer of the onion is peeled back, it gets better and better.

 

[CitizenVectron]

What about this: Arnold never died, Ford did.

Arnold killed Ford (for some reason, perhaps Ford realizing the hosts were becoming sentient and wanting to stop it, or perhaps because Ford wanted to enslave them even though they were becoming sentient), and then Arnold created a Ford host which he transferred his mind into.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Delores is in charge. She is totally using William to help her get to the Maze. The whole bit about the voices telling her that she needs William and she leaps into his arms and kisses him. Almost feels like she is using/playing him.

Interesting moralities./ethics though about Human/android love if they decide to go down that path.

Definitly using him. And mayve that will be the downfall that will break Willian, making it stop Dolores and turning him into MiB.

I don't think Dolores knows what is love at this point, even if she is awaking. She is just using the routine she knows with Ted.

Love is an human thing that bounds us mainly for the perpetuation of the species. Hosts do not have that drive. Even if you can program those instincts, Dolores was not the lover/mother, she was the damsel in distress.

First step into sentience, as Dolorance is experimenting, is self recgonition. To have a relantionship with another bring requires empathy, a further step.

 

[RSTEIN]

Different timelines are almost a sure thing now.

Yes. The buyout thing pretty much seals that. While there are perhaps some shady things happening in the present, there's no evidence that Delos is bleeding cash or in any way financially strapped. At the same time we do know for certain that the park nearly went under after Arnold died. Therefore William's timeline must be a few years after the Arnold incident, before William's firm injected it with cash.

I do think William is MIB. He's falling in love with Delores, that's clear. He's never connected to anyone like he has with Delores. He's totally immersed in Westworld. Something is going to happen that will shatter everything. Delores will betray him or perhaps just be reset and everything they've built and experienced will evaporate. Notice how MIB always makes an effort to point out to the hosts that they're just robots? That they're just programmed and stuck in loops? He's reminding himself of this.

For me, one wrinkle in the timeline theory is the fact that the hosts have been having issues for 30 years yet nobody in admin/tech has any record of this. Why doesn't Bernard, the Head of Programming, have any knowledge of prior events? Why isn't he making any connection between current problems and past problems? Or is he just too obsessed himself with the idea of emergent consciousness? Or is he a host? We already have one person (the brunette, I forget her name) in the present realizing that something doesn't add up. Even if the hosts have been re-triggered you'd think over 30 years of diagnostics, R&D, testing, etc., something would have been discovered. Or in 30 years the entire host's AI would be overwritten with something new. That's like using the same iPhone for 30 years or something.

 

[CitizenVectron]

In one timeline her name is Deloris, and in the other it's Dolores.

This is the real mystery, folks.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Yes. The buyout thing pretty much seals that. While there are perhaps some shady things happening in the present, there's no evidence that Delos is bleeding cash or in any way financially strapped. At the same time we do know for certain that the park nearly went under after Arnold died. Therefore William's timeline must be a few years after the Arnold incident, before William's firm injected it with cash.

I do think William is MIB. He's falling in love with Delores, that's clear. He's never connected to anyone like he has with Delores. He's totally immersed in Westworld. Something is going to happen that will shatter everything. Delores will betray him or perhaps just be reset and everything they've built and experienced will evaporate. Notice how MIB always makes an effort to point out to the hosts that they're just robots? That they're just programmed and stuck in loops? He's reminding himself of this.

For me, one wrinkle in the timeline theory is the fact that the hosts have been having issues for 30 years yet nobody in admin/tech has any record of this. Why doesn't Bernard, the Head of Programming, have any knowledge of prior events? Why isn't he making any connection between current problems and past problems? Or is he just too obsessed himself with the idea of emergent consciousness? Or is he a host? We already have one person (the brunette, I forget her name) in the present realizing that something doesn't add up. Even if the hosts have been re-triggered you'd think over 30 years of diagnostics, R&D, testing, etc., something would have been discovered. Or in 30 years the entire host's AI would be overwritten with something new. That's like using the same iPhone for 30 years or something.

Entire parts of their facility are in disuse and they won't even fix the hvac. There are signs of financial trouble even in the current timeline. There also seems the possibility that mgmt might oust Ford, another sign that things aren't going well.

Rumors of Arnold seem to be very well covered up as even Bernard had never heard of him. If there were any rumors of a founder killing himself Logan may not have heard about them until even decades after it happened. Westworld has a very tight lock on what's happening with its mgmt and presumably it's founders outside of Ford, as Meredith and the writer guy do not even know what the true purpose of the park is.

Logan talking about a buyout absolutely does not confirm an alt timeline.

 

[biggersmaller]

Fashion style seems to be exactly the same.

Edited: and why the hell the photo seems to be so old style, black and white and faded? Even 34 years from the current Westworld timeline it should be our future, with hi-res color photos.

No tourist trap is safe from old timey and "You were Here!" photo-for-pay traps. I guess Ford's the type that has it framed and keeps it out. You know the ones.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

I do think William is MIB. He's falling in love with Delores, that's clear. He's never connected to anyone like he has with Delores. He's totally immersed in Westworld. Something is going to happen that will shatter everything. Delores will betray him or perhaps just be reset and everything they've built and experienced will evaporate. Notice how MIB always makes an effort to point out to the hosts that they're just robots? That they're just programmed and stuck in loops? He's reminding himself of this.

Yes, clearly William immersion is total, he is forgeting tvat is all a game. Something that MiB wants to remind (him and everyone) every second.

The only think that still does not make sense is why Dolores was kept active after whatever happened. I can see William intervention on this, requesting that she remains in the park, but why then the self punishment of coming back to the park for 30 years just to see her after her betrayal/reset/whatever.

 

[MoeDabs]

It doesn't confirm anything but it does add to the growing pile of clues. It is fairly obvious they are in separate timelines even if not explicitly stated. There hasn't been anything that disproves that, just clever editing of different scenes, so I feel very confident in saying that.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Entire parts of their facility are in disuse and they won't even fix the hvac. There are signs of financial trouble even in the current timeline.

I do not see it as a sign of financial trouble but as "it is not a priority" mentality tipically from large corporations. Ford seems to be expending a lot of resources for his new narrative and the board seems fine with it, actually wanting him to do that longer and longer, to keep him busy and out of the game.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Does anyone have screens of the old Westworld logo with William near?

 

[More_Badass]

Yes, clearly William immersion is total, he is forgeting tvat is all a game. Something that MiB wants to remind (him and everyone) every second.

The only think that still does not make sense is why Dolores was kept active after whatever happened. I can see William intervention on this, requesting that she remains in the park, but why then the self punishment of coming back to the park for 30 years just to see her after her betrayal/reset/whatever.

Trying to reset her and make her remember? It's in their first meeting in the first episode.

Hello again...Is that any way to treat an old friend? I've been coming here for 30 years, but you still don't remember me, do you? After all we've been through?

Would explain why the gun was buried (was it the gun she used all those years ago), and the picture (did he plant it to purposefully try to break hosts out of their loops)?

 

[Lasthope106]

I think I'm going to bail out of this thread. I enjoy the show and slowly putting together the story, but some of you guys probably already have the whole thing thing figured out. I rather be surprised, than potentially spoiled.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I can't wait until the season where the flashbacks take place in Hong Kong.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Trying to reset her and make her remember? It's in their first meeting in the first episode.
Would explain why the gun was buried (was it the gun she used all those years ago), and the picture (did he plant it to purposefully try to break hosts out of their loops)?

If what broke William is that Dolores was reset he could requested that it was reverted and she had access to that loop memories. As we are supposing that he requested Dolores to be keep in operation, using his powers as a Delos CEO.

What broke Willian is something Dolores did by herself. Something that he could not change. Like the realization that she was only using him or simple that she was following her programming to keep the guests interested in WW.

If so, why coming back? It would not change over tbe years unless the hosts become even more envolved and sentient, something that William/MiB would have no control.

 

[elrechazado]

What if everyone in this thread but me is a host

I'm not so sure you're not a host.

 

[LumpOfCole]

I can't wait until the season where the flashbacks take place in Hong Kong.

My name is Dolores Abernathy. After thirty years in a hellish theme park, I have become self aware with only one goal: to find my purpose. But to do that, I can't be the damsel I once was. To honor my creator's memory, I must be something else. I must be someone else.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

I think I'm going to bail out of this thread. I enjoy the show and slowly putting together the story, but some of you guys probably already have the whole thing thing figured out. I rather be surprised, than potentially spoiled.

That is the fun of it, to solve the puzzle bit by bit. I rather be instigated to think than to be surprised.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

For posterity:

L+SD ratings

Episode 1: 1.96 million
Episode 2: 1.50 million
Episode 3: 2.10 million
Episode 4: 1.70 million
Episode 5: 1.50 million

 

[Captain Europe]

The 90 minute finale is going to be crazy. I'm expecting a three way steel cage match between Robo Ford, Robo Bernard, and MiB-William in an underground arena hidden under the buried church where Arnold's body lies, with his brain connected to the master central computing system driving Westworld - a floating colony orbiting around the moon.

Oh and Elsie elopes with Maeve after killing Diet Thor.

Wait, episode 6 is the finale? I assumed this was a 10 ep deal like GoT .

 

[More_Badass]

Wait, episode 6 is the finale? I assumed this was a 10 ep deal like GoT .

it is 10 episodes

 

[Kayhan]

What if everyone in this thread but me is a host

I have always felt like I am the only real person in the world.

The rest of you are just some kind of weird puppets.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I have always felt like I am the only real person in the world.

The rest of you are just some kind of weird puppets.

Is is solipsistic in here, or is it just me?

 

[Edzi]

I think I'm going to bail out of this thread. I enjoy the show and slowly putting together the story, but some of you guys probably already have the whole thing thing figured out. I rather be surprised, than potentially spoiled.

I'm gonna bail too, but for the opposite reason. People here are grasping at straws, and the entire discussion is revolving around baseless theories.

 

[More_Badass]

I'm gonna bail too, but for the opposite reason. People here are grasping at straws, and the entire discussion is revolving around baseless theories.

Baseless? The fact that there's enough evidence to support such speculation says otherwise

 

[Revolver]

Absolutely loved the cover of Something I Can Never Have.

https://youtu.be/F4kq_gSWTA4



https://youtu.be/RS_1-_EJ0Zk

I almost lost my shit when I heard that. Took me a few seconds and then it hit me. Perfect use of the music.