Damn, this show is dope. Just caught up last night on ep. 5. So good. The William = MIB theory makes sense I think. I'm sure it's already been brought up numerous times in here, but Pariah being completely different for William and Logan (way more populated and lively with the parade, the solider narrative etc.) than it was for the Man in Black when he took Lawrence made me think we were dealing with different times in the park. Was almost a ghost town when MIB got there.
Also just want to say that Jimmi Simpson is awesome so far imo. Perfect for the role. Pretty much everyone in the cast is great, though Logan and maybe the lab tech guys are a little over the top.
edit: wait...was that Pariah the MIB got Lawrence from? When he killed all those guys..?
How can William be the MIB when all the hosts are the high tech versions? If young William is the MIB he wouldn't and couldn't interact with high tech hosts but hosts like Old Bill that are clearly inferior.
William already interacted with a robot that we have seen and know was around during the beta period of the park. It looks like, that robot was re-purposed to greet guests in that changing room area outside of the park.
And at the time William interacted with her, those beta robots didn't appear to act mechanical like Old Bill, infact it appeared so lifelike William wasn't even sure if she was a robot or human ...so Old Bill is very likely to be older than those beta robots.
What if Dolores has been looping the maze for thirty years? William is just the newest one and the first one to get her so close. MIB was the first one, and he nearly saw her transcend, but he failed and saved the park instead, and he hasn't been able to get back to that point. The double whammy of the reveries/glitches combined with running into a true hero character like William is what jumpstarted her into going further along the maze than she ever has.
Then when William and the MIB meet, we see why: William treats the host as people, while MIB treats them as things. That core empathy is what sets them on different paths.
Damn, this show is dope. Just caught up last night on ep. 5. So good. The William = MIB theory makes sense I think. I'm sure it's already been brought up numerous times in here, but Pariah being completely different for William and Logan (way more populated and lively with the parade, the solider narrative etc.) than it was for the Man in Black when he took Lawrence made me think we were dealing with different times in the park. Was almost a ghost town when MIB got there.
Also just want to say that Jimmi Simpson is awesome so far imo. Perfect for the role. Pretty much everyone in the cast is great, though Logan and maybe the lab tech guys are a little over the top.
edit: wait...was that Pariah the MIB got Lawrence from? When he killed all those guys..?
I'm sure that every Host has it hard-coded in their programming that not only can they not harm Ford, but also that they'll switch into a defense-mode of him if a threat is perceived.
Having said that, MiB likely would know that and was just fucking with Ford. He looked amused more than anything when Teddy grabbed the blade.
I'm trying to avoid the theorycrafting in this thread because I know some of the analysis is going to be correct and spoil some/most of the major developments.
I thought this last episode was batshit crazy with a mashup of equal parts Western and Caligula. From almost start to finish it was like we were on an adult themed visual amusement park ride of debauchery town. It was wild television.
In case viewers were feeling like the show was biased towards the female anatomy, out came the dicks in this episode. And not just your healthy GAF sized proportions either. The ones on display were like a GAF Sword of Girth+5. Honorable mention to Thandie Newton who plays Meave, she's beautiful.
Ed Harris was exceptional again. This must be a fun role for him to play.
so it's a given at this point that someone working in the office has to be a robot right? how do people think that reveal will go down? mid-conversation ford just sets them to debug mode or something?
so it's a given at this point that someone working in the office has to be a robot right? how do people think that reveal will go down? mid-conversation ford just sets them to debug mode or something?
Do we know how much someone has to cut into a host to determine it's a host? Would a regular person be able to tell the difference between regular human muscle etc?
For a message board focused on video games, I am frankly very surprised at how people interpret this show.
This was basically the information dump episode, and the teleplay of this one is credited to Joy directly. Felt like it was a little rushing on it, versus episode four which was better paced imo, and had Nolan as a writer on it. Mostly awesome soundtrack though.
First of all: Dolores gets a grey hat, contrasting with white or black for the guests. Specifically, Ford asks her directly which one she'd imagine herself to be, not allowing for the lack of a dichotomy. She does not answer the question.
Second, "lady with the white shoes" > cut to Dolores.
Third, Ford = Arnold, or what's left of him (either himself or andy). No need to spoiler it he nearly says so in the episode ("person I used to be.... Arnold"). He's the only person who refers to the andies being made by Arnold, whereas everybody else says Ford made them. The child version, which showed up again this episode (
and will likely show up for the finale too
), may have been something like a trial run for the purpose of transferring consciousness or something like that. Either way, I speculate Arnold probably only partially succeeded and 'died' in that sense, leaving 'Ford', who is distinctly lacking in certain human qualities (sentimentality, shame, empathy, probably more) that go beyond his creator role. Also, look at how the pictured figures are dressed versus Ford in both present and flashback, in which "Arnold" is never shown. We only ever see the person we know as Ford, so obviously by power of elimination that 'person X is not there', Ford is Arnold. They can't suddenly reveal the guy now. You can't pull a rabbit out your hat after you've shown the trick. If Arnold was a real, different person, we would have seen him on the first flashback. We 'didn't', we saw Ford. Additionally, it would explain his greater degree of control over the park, to the point of snapping his fingers to make things happen. Ford's connection to the park is not in line with a mere human controller. His connection appears to be more intimate than a human could be. MiB's threat at him suggests him knowing that too, if perhaps intuitively. Real question is whether Ford was reverse-triggered by that Shakespeare quote and then started changing narratives, or has been playing the long game.
Four: hosts are NPC's and may have duplicates or be moved around on the nightly reset. Lawrence being moved into his other role makes sense.
Five: there is definitely concern to the rules here, or rather those of the world outside. If everyone is taken care of, why does the patcher 'need the job' ? Unless he meant for purpose, and MiB was just referring to the body, an area that he is presumably involved in. Perhaps that's the cause for his villain role. There is also a mention of shuttles before, flickering lights and flooding, and those elevators into the park, but we don't know how fast they are. Since they only have eight hours while the guests sleep, I'm guessing there's a turbolift system in place. But these are all big assumptions to make when they change the range of the diegesis and do / will need to be explained in a coherent way. Otherwise you're just making shit up, and that's a bit unfortunate.
Six: the bicameral mind thesis is basically that of an echo-chamber, whereas the individual is alone. Dolores being alone in that shot was likely a representative of that. It may also simply be metaphor for how uncaring 'players' -in games- are, which she now is, of per hat token.
Seven: Logan felt pride with that tiny smile when William finally stood up, as set up by that 'happiest moment of your life' speech. Also: WTF at that whole brothel section. I get that this is the 'risky part of town', but what the hell at abruptly showing it. Then again, sanitizing lack of morality would be equally poor. But it's definitely an HBO thing to do.
Eight: if that conspiracy theory would be true, this season has to end on 'it's all a dream / in her head' where William isn't real (and we're quickly running out of 'real' people here), which is a hard cancel right there. HBO waiting to see how things play out is slightly concerning in that respect. However, even if Dolores remembers the first 'birth' ("don't you remember", with the church and presumably Arnold's death / attempted rebirth. Ford on that: "He is (...) perfectly preserved in there" ) of the park and the hosts that now inhabit it, which is presumably somehow tied to that maze (speaking of which: yes, it's a maze, we get it, ffs), there is no compelling reason to believe any that anything is happening at any other time than the present. But this caters back to problems with rules and the over-reliance on mystery.
If I had to guess, Fordnold holds the code -or whatever- needed for the hosts to become fully self-aware (prevented from completion by the incident), even if the Maeve plotline is already showing that to a sufficient degree. She's probably going to throw a bigass wrench in everything, being able to break out on her own.
The dependence on mystery kind of ruins the chances of it just being the hosts truly becoming self-aware on their own, without some magical bullshit to make it happen. Oh well, we'll see.
so it's a given at this point that someone working in the office has to be a robot right? how do people think that reveal will go down? mid-conversation ford just sets them to debug mode or something?
At this point I'm starting to think they could all be hosts, just with different sets of privileges. Even the ones that have a real human life story may have transferred their consciousness into a host body.
At this point I'm starting to think they could all be hosts, just with different sets of privileges. Even the ones that have a real human life story may have transferred their consciousness into a host body.
I had this thought too but Ford says they haven't figured out eternal life yet so I doubt it. Thats the next step he is working on, transferring... probably how Arnold dies (if he is real lol).
Honestly, the most grasping at straws I've seen are the people who are arguing AGAINST the two time periods theories. They're beating us over the head with clues and people are having to make stuff up just to disprove the theory.
So far in order to disprove it we've had people:
- invent rules for the guns that have never been explained ("Oh I think the guns give a warning shot the first time, that's why William was knocked down! Nothing to do with changes to the park over years")
- ignore information we've actually been given ("But it can't be the past, the robots are too life like!" which ignores the development timeline that Ford gave us. "We're supposed to believe Dolores has been around for 30 years?" which ignores that Dolores is old enough to have met Arnold, which Ford told us this episode.)
- invent ideas such as the management using VR to talk to the hosts, or using back up bodies, so that they aren't taken out of the storylines when being analysed.
Now, I'm not saying that anything here isn't actually the case at all, but everything attempting to disprove the idea of there being flashbacks actually requires a lot more empty speculation than trying to defend the flashbacks. There's no smoking gun, or even any kind of hint that MiB and William's stories are taking place at the same time. People just assumed it because they weren't told otherwise.
Honestly, the most grasping at straws I've seen are the people who are arguing AGAINST the two time periods theories. They're beating us over the head with clues and people are having to make stuff up just to disprove the theory.
So far in order to disprove it we've had people:
- invent rules for the guns that have never been explained ("Oh I think the guns give a warning shot the first time, that's why William was knocked down! Nothing to do with changes to the park over years")
- ignore information we've actually been given ("But it can't be the past, the robots are too life like!" which ignores the development timeline that Ford gave us. "We're supposed to believe Dolores has been around for 30 years?" which ignores that Dolores is old enough to have met Arnold, which Ford told us this episode.)
- invent ideas such as the management using VR to talk to the hosts, or using back up bodies, so that they aren't taken out of the storylines when being analysed.
Now, I'm not saying that anything here isn't actually the case at all, but everything attempting to disprove the idea of there being flashbacks actually requires a lot more empty speculation than trying to defend the flashbacks. There's no smoking gun, or even any kind of hint that MiB and William's stories are taking place at the same time. People just assumed it because they weren't told otherwise.
except that Dolores's quest and encounter with William started with her seeing MiB as seen at the start in the pilot.
I get that people are trying to decipher something they're not used to, but this is also the movie should be considered canon anyway: the show DOES use the 'nights are for repairs' rule, where every switch between plotline A & B (Dolores-William, MiB) and C (the repair guys, Maeve) is basically a day having passed in the park, with C being 'at night'. That's why Maeve keeps showing up there too: she's been dying over and over again WHILE the other narratives play on without those characters dying. The 'analysis' rounds are the real problem, since they presumably take place at night as well, but we're bit unclear on that in editing, even if the established rules would tell us so.
also, have you considered that MiB is just wearing a thicker coat than William is? And less interested in 'playing along' than William is?
btw, y'all are passing on the best line in this episode: "Too small". He was referring to his liquid contents (
It does, yes. However, it can't be entirely excluded either, but the result of that would be highly disappointing and the idea bears little merit in terms of editing or connecting narratives. It would make this show's narrative bizarre, to be honest.
You can actually use the show Frequency as a comparison or how 'temporally linked narratives' do play out in their editing, and Westworld doesn't support that under its rules. If it were to hold, the rules are basically voided right there and then. Like I said, that would create a "it's all a dream" plot, which nobody wants to see. The whole point of a dream is to wake up from it.
except that Dolores's quest and encounter with William started with her seeing MiB as seen at the start in the pilot.
I get that people are trying to decipher something they're not used to, but this is also the movie should be considered canon anyway: the show DOES use the 'nights are for repairs' rule, where every switch between plotline A & B (Dolores-William, MiB) and C (the repair guys, Maeve) is basically a day having passed in the park, with C being 'at night'. That's why Maeve keeps showing up there too: she's been dying over and over again WHILE the other narratives play on without those characters dying. The 'analysis' rounds are the real problem, since they presumably take place at night as well, but we're bit unclear on that in editing, even if the established rules would tell us so.
also, have you considered that MiB is just wearing a thicker coat than William is? And less interested in 'playing along' than William is?
btw, y'all are passing on the best line in this episode: "Too small". He was referring to his liquid contents (
Honestly, the most grasping at straws I've seen are the people who are arguing AGAINST the two time periods theories. They're beating us over the head with clues and people are having to make stuff up just to disprove the theory.
So far in order to disprove it we've had people:
- invent rules for the guns that have never been explained ("Oh I think the guns give a warning shot the first time, that's why William was knocked down! Nothing to do with changes to the park over years")
- ignore information we've actually been given ("But it can't be the past, the robots are too life like!" which ignores the development timeline that Ford gave us. "We're supposed to believe Dolores has been around for 30 years?" which ignores that Dolores is old enough to have met Arnold, which Ford told us this episode.)
- invent ideas such as the management using VR to talk to the hosts, or using back up bodies, so that they aren't taken out of the storylines when being analysed.
Now, I'm not saying that anything here isn't actually the case at all, but everything attempting to disprove the idea of there being flashbacks actually requires a lot more empty speculation than trying to defend the flashbacks. There's no smoking gun, or even any kind of hint that MiB and William's stories are taking place at the same time. People just assumed it because they weren't told otherwise.
The sparks flying off of mibs coat points to me he may have a special armored coat more so than the simunitions changing over time. Hes obviously a vip, who gets vip clothing options.
The timeline we've been given by Ford seems like less than 40 years or so back for beta testing, so the hosts developed to where they are not discernable from the current timeline within a matter of a few years? Ford's relative current age to his cgi flashback also suggest it can't be much more than 30 years.
Delores scenes with Bernard and the scene with Ford directly after his voice causing her to faint actually do suggest a virtual setting for these conversations. Lawrence and Delores actually seeing herself also point to duplicate host bodies.
The sequence of events of Delores stumbling into Williams camp and the pariah scene with her fainting do heavily suggest one timeline. Also park mgmt commenting she has gone off loop. Also park mgmt saying to bring her in to behavior, but then that not happening because she is with guests.
The narrative with teddy, delores, ford, mib, and william has been consistently been presented as on the same timeline. There are hints at a possible alt timeline but I'd say clinging to those is more grasping at straws than completely ignoring how actual events have been presented through the sequence of scenes on the show.
There have been several things as pointed out above that effectively kill the mib = william theory but people continue to hold onto it, thus grasping at straws.
All of this can be refuted of course by Dolores effectively going through the same loop she did 30 years prior, because it could be a disguised alternate timeline, but I think it's very much so grasping that nothing has changed in the park in 30 years to make all of that possible. Lawrence, teddy, the locations, the confederados plot line with the nitro, settings, the train, etc etc all would have to have remained unchanged for 30+ years. It seems highly unlikely. Also if dolores had something to do with the critical failure and it revolves around her developing sentience and potentially killing a guest, it's extremely unlikely she would not have been completely shut down, or at the very least put in a different role with less likely contact with guests at all, much less consistent contact with the same guest that was involved with all this previously. It just doesnt make sense.
Until there's mutual references that disprove it, or MiB and William meet, there hasn't been anything to disprove MiB = William.
As each episode goes on, there's more and more evidence to suggest there's multiple timelines, all of which centre around Dolores. We've witnessed, IMO, at least 3 different loops for her that are significant to the overall story.
By episode 5, the showrunners have given more in favour of the theory than disprove it. Whether that's the end goal, or whether they're deliberately trying to mislead people is another thing.
I don't think many of us are saying it's without doubt, or an absolute certainty, but so far there's been carefully crafted hints and clues.
Do I have to post this again. Regardless of how you feel about split timelines or who's who the timeline is not ambiguous.
No need to guess on looks or vague suggestions.
Arnold died right as the park opened.
Arnold died 34 years ago.
Hosts were able to pass Turing a year after the park opened.
33 years ago hosts pass Turing.
30 years ago the incident happened.
So 3 years past Turing to fine tune. So while the innards may be different if you "open em up" surface level they could be more similar than people realize.
I have a feeling that the MiB is dying (Ford said he had an anxious urgency to his actions) and he believes the maze will let him transfer his consciousness to a host?
If William = MIB, then why do we see the control room guy asking to pull Dolores out (in present time), and shortly after a man trying to seize Dolores until William steps in ?
Doesn't it set William in present time, aside from a misleading trick and convenient coincidence from the writers ?
(Sorry if i've missed posts addressing this)
I have a feeling that the MiB is dying (Ford said he had an anxious urgency to his actions) and he believes the maze will let him transfer his consciousness to a host?
If William = MIB, then why do we see the control room guy asking to pull Dolores out (in present time), and shortly after a man trying to seize Dolores until William steps in ?
Doesn't it set William in present time, aside from a misleading trick and convenient coincidence from the writers ?
(Sorry if i've missed posts addressing this)
I don't know... MiB doesn't seem too sure of what to expect at the centre of the maze. When asked by Ford he gave some vague idea of finding "truth". MiB might be dying, and so there's a sense of urgency to solve the puzzle before his time is over, but I don't think he's specifically expecting to find eternal life.
If William = MIB, then why do we see the control room guy asking to pull Dolores out (in present time), and shortly after a man trying to seize Dolores until William steps in ?
Doesn't it set William in present time, aside from a misleading trick and convenient coincidence from the writers ?
(Sorry if i've missed posts addressing this)
Except william is in the actual scene when they try to pull her out?
The argument then would be they also tried to pull her out 30 years prior, but then a ton of characters, settings, plot lines, would have to remain unchanged for 30 years.
Do you really think they would allow the exact same circumstances to still exist that got her into the same loop 30 years prior?
Not to mention allowing continued contact with the guest that was involved 30 years ago?
And they still haven't pulled her despite her progressing off loop and she isn't with guests?
Another possibility that should be considered, and is hinted at by Ford, is the possibility of more than one park.
Ford makes a comment about the noise of the large earth moving equipment disturbing the "neighbours". What did he mean by that? Perhaps there are multiple Westworld parks, or maybe there are other themed parks like Medievalworld? Or perhaps he was just making an offhand joke that wasn't meant to be read into... however, if there are multiple Westworld parks, it could be an alternative explanation for some of the things noticed by the multiple timeline truthers.
Another possibility that should be considered, and is hinted at by Ford, is the possibility of more than one park.
Ford makes a comment about the noise of the large earth moving equipment disturbing the "neighbours". What did he mean by that? Perhaps there are multiple Westworld parks, or maybe there are other themed parks like Medievalworld? Or perhaps he was just making an offhand joke that wasn't meant to be read into... however, if there are multiple Westworld parks, it could be an alternative explanation for some of the things noticed by the multiple timeline truthers.
Pretty sure that was a sarcastic jab at his project getting the higher-ups nervous and sending her to investigate. Like neighbors calling the cops because of the loud music at a party
But it's not the same circumstances. The glitch is new, her father freaking out is new, MiB is new (granted he's trying to recreate the same circumstances). Most of these "same circumstances" are all in her mind and aren't actually happening.
As for William/MiB still being able to contact her, from what we've seen he has some pull in the park. Either he has special privileges for what he did in the past, or he's a head/the head of the company.
They hadn't pulled her because they *think* she's with a guest. When they questioned who they didn't know and just assumed shes following someone and not actually taking the trip solo.
The character distribution in the show so far is weird, Bernie is barely in this episode even though one would be lead to believe he is the main character at central HQ.
Do I have to post this again. Regardless of how you feel about split timelines or who's who the timeline is not ambiguous.
No need to guess on looks or vague suggestions.
Arnold died right as the park opened.
Arnold died 34 years ago.
Hosts were able to pass Turing a year after the park opened.
33 years ago hosts pass Turing.
30 years ago the incident happened.
So 3 years past Turing to fine tune. So while the innards may be different if you "open em up" surface level they could be more similar than people realize.
Arnold died 34 years ago, but Ford stated that the crew lived in the Park for 3 years before the opening, for beta testing. That will put the start of their work 37 years old, when Old Bill was build. After a year (so 36 years ago) the hosts started to pass the Turing Test. 2 full years of more development before Arnold's incident (if in one they went from Old Bill to passing the Turing Test, with 2 more they could have develop hists that were pretty much like the ones from today).
Arnold died 34 years ago, but Ford stated that the crew lived in the Park for 3 years before the opening, for beta testing. That will put the start of their work 37 years old, when Old Bill was build. After a year (so 36 years ago) the hosts started to pass the Turing Test. 2 full years of more development before Arnold's incident (if in one they went from Old Bill to passing the Turing Test, with 2 more they could have develop hists that were pretty pmuch like the ones from today).
Damn, this show is dope. Just caught up last night on ep. 5. So good. The William = MIB theory makes sense I think. I'm sure it's already been brought up numerous times in here, but Pariah being completely different for William and Logan (way more populated and lively with the parade, the solider narrative etc.) than it was for the Man in Black when he took Lawrence made me think we were dealing with different times in the park. Was almost a ghost town when MIB got there.
Also just want to say that Jimmi Simpson is awesome so far imo. Perfect for the role. Pretty much everyone in the cast is great, though Logan and maybe the lab tech guys are a little over the top.
edit: wait...was that Pariah the MIB got Lawrence from? When he killed all those guys..?
We haven't seen MiB in Pariah yet. He saved Lawrence at an outpost somewhere by Sweetwater I believe. Lawrences home town where his family lives is Las Mudas which is in between Pariah and Sweetwater. Right now MiB is currently on the outskirts of Pariah, Lawrence mentioned the nearest doctor would be at Pariah in the last episode.
Dolores is going to the maze, William is unknowingly tagging along. We don't know how it turns out, if he is able to enter the maze, or what it even is. Lawrences daughter told the MiB "The maze isnt meant for you" for a reason.
The timeline we've been given by Ford seems like less than 40 years or so back for beta testing, so the hosts developed to where they are not discernable from the current timeline within a matter of a few years? Ford's relative current age to his cgi flashback also suggest it can't be much for than 30 years.
I wouldn't go as far to classify beta host indiscernible from current host without more flashback footage but the little bit we saw of the beta period featured 3 hosts that are shown as operational during either Williams or MiBs trip and we know Dolores has to predate them. Obviously they've had hardware and software updates post launch but I don't think it's safe to assume that there's a huge gap between what they launched with and what's currently running.
If William = MIB, then why do we see the control room guy asking to pull Dolores out (in present time), and shortly after a man trying to seize Dolores until William steps in ?
Doesn't it set William in present time, aside from a misleading trick and convenient coincidence from the writers ?
(Sorry if i've missed posts addressing this)
Misleading trick. We never see the guy report back to the control room, we haven't seen confirmation from the control room that Dolores is with guest, nor have we seen the control room ever acknowledge William and Logan. These gaps are deliberately being written to either misdirect people into theories like MiB is William or foreshadowing the reveal.
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