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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
Has anyone rewatched episodes multiple times? I've typically been watching them twice each week, trying to pick up on the details and make sure I didn't miss everything.
I'm now going back and watching the first few episodes again, and a previous poster is right; the breadcrumbs for a lot of what we're discussing are there. It also makes you question things you wouldn't normally have highlighted as odd (Ford'a conversations with Bernard, for instance).
I'm not quite done going back through, but I THINK, during Bernard's conversations with Dolores, he doesn't wear his glasses once. Possibly a hint that it's all VR? Conincidence?
IF it's VR, and IF Bernard=Arnold, then it is possibly Arnold is "alive" somewhere, and his conversations are manifested during the hosts dreams as they would be interacting with the behavioral team. I said earlier in a crackpot theory post that I think we've already seems Arnold and his interactions with Dolores.
I'm almost certain Arnold's voice is Jeffrey Wright too.
I'm now going back and watching the first few episodes again, and a previous poster is right; the breadcrumbs for a lot of what we're discussing are there. It also makes you question things you wouldn't normally have highlighted as odd (Ford'a conversations with Bernard, for instance).
I'm not quite done going back through, but I THINK, during Bernard's conversations with Dolores, he doesn't wear his glasses once. Possibly a hint that it's all VR? Conincidence?
IF it's VR, and IF Bernard=Arnold, then it is possibly Arnold is "alive" somewhere, and his conversations are manifested during the hosts dreams as they would be interacting with the behavioral team. I said earlier in a crackpot theory post that I think we've already seems Arnold and his interactions with Dolores.
I'm almost certain Arnold's voice is Jeffrey Wright too.
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
I love Jimmi Simpson in this, one of the highlights so far. And I think Elsie has come into her own as well (I recall some people not liking her).
The "autopsy" technician guys are fucking terrible though, particularly the red-head bearded guy. Ugh.
The "autopsy" technician guys are fucking terrible though, particularly the red-head bearded guy. Ugh.
Yeah, he's the only one that I would say is a poor actor, everyone else is doing a great job.
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
I haven't seen him in so long I forgot he existed. When was the last episode he showed up?
I quoted myself, in on mobile though so format is reversed but everything in that post is based on info they have given us with anything about the theory cut.
He was just there last week. He's the guy the staff consult before executing any orders in the park, like when they found Dolores was deviating from her loop, and when MiB needed the pyro spell lvl2.
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
Oooh right I forgot he was a Hemsworth. I dunno he hasn't bothered me so far, maybe cuz I'm not familiar with his other roles? I thought you were talking about the smarmy British quest writer guy.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
That's the what I read from the scene. The phrase made Teddy stop acting so hurt.
Chuckie
Member
fierrotlepou
Member
Thank you, good sir!
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
The "split timeline" theory is absolutely fine if you account for the old logos and the mystery of the Man in Black's identity, thus the obvious logic behind a secondary narrative that tells of his origin and the original "incident". In that respect William or someone else being the Man in Black, and that arc showing us the first incident, is fine. The issue I have is that Deloris is shown having a flashback of the Man in Black, in the barn, which partially triggers her violent response and use of a firearm, freeing herself from the attack to meet up with William. She couldn't recall this if it was an origin story. Additionally, Deloris is alone during the house attack because Teddy is off hunting Wyatt, a new addition by Ford, who discusses as much with the Man in Black.
I get the origins of the theory and originally believed it, but the inconsistencies of the old logo if there's no split timeline is outweighed by the inconsistencies of known information during narrative arcs if there is a split timeline.
I also worry that expecting some outrageously complex narrative enveloped in multifaceted science fiction mysteries that'll all make sense in the end is maybe giving the writers of a HBO series aimed at being the next Game of Thrones a bit too much credit. I'd love it to be so, but after the last couple of episodes the mysteries seem more forward moving rather than complex retrospectives. I just don't see how the William-is-MiB dual timeline theory can match Deloris' flashbacks and the existence of Wyatt, unless I'm misremembering something myself.
I get the origins of the theory and originally believed it, but the inconsistencies of the old logo if there's no split timeline is outweighed by the inconsistencies of known information during narrative arcs if there is a split timeline.
I also worry that expecting some outrageously complex narrative enveloped in multifaceted science fiction mysteries that'll all make sense in the end is maybe giving the writers of a HBO series aimed at being the next Game of Thrones a bit too much credit. I'd love it to be so, but after the last couple of episodes the mysteries seem more forward moving rather than complex retrospectives. I just don't see how the William-is-MiB dual timeline theory can match Deloris' flashbacks and the existence of Wyatt, unless I'm misremembering something myself.
shira
Member
That is why he is called Diet Thor I assume
Shouldn't he be called Vectoring Asshole?
Diet Ariadne da bess
I'm convinced there's three story lines playing out with Dolores.
Modern day, on her own, retracing the steps she took with William.
The William timeline.
The Arnold revolt timeline. There's times when Dolores is disorientated with William as she's remembering things, so this indicates there was something that happened prior to her meeting and journey with William.
She seemingly remembers multiple scenarios at once. So, for instance, she found the gun in the ground during the William timeline (she has it when she wakes in their camp), but doesn't in the modern timeline, hence why it disappears.
Characters also appear and reappear; this week it was Logan, Jimmy and William overlooking Pariah in the graveyard, and then Lawrence and William on the train. If it was one timeline, they'd be present in both shots, but it's a deliberate continuity error IMO to highlight that Dolores is on her own in one of these timelines.
This is bait.
chicko1983
Member
I just watched the latest episode followed by episode 5 of quarry (the latest episode shown here).
I think I now prefer quarry over this show. I started out preferring Westworld but this episode felt the weakest.
I think I now prefer quarry over this show. I started out preferring Westworld but this episode felt the weakest.
I think the idea is that the introduction of the reveries by Ford has had some kind of impact on her perception of time, what is a flashback and what isn't is kind of jumbled up for her.
What strikes me about the William / MIB stories is that the audience is meant to draw parallels between the two characters and the very distinct possibility that they are the same person 30 years apart. This is the theory we are meant to be playing with, whether it turns out to be the truth is a secondary issue, we're being directed to think about the wider story in that context and we're all looking out for things that might prove or disprove it.
I wouldn't be suprised if the season finale consists of the two of them face to face, with dolores between them.
Chuckie
Member
You mean Delourous.
The dialogue between Dolores and Ford is supposed to be in the present, she tells him the last time she talked to Arnold was 34 years before.
So, if she's alone and not with a guest (scenes with William are supposed to be in the past), why don't they bring Dolores back in her loop?
So, if she's alone and not with a guest (scenes with William are supposed to be in the past), why don't they bring Dolores back in her loop?
We don't know the timeline. We know there was an incident 30 years ago, but that's not to say it happened around the opening of the park.
Take for instance, that flashback to where we see the hosts learning to dance. They already moved much more fluidly than Old Bill did and we can see Robert Ford's age was perhaps in his 30s or 40s at that point. Given we don't know Ford's real age, just Hopkins (Nearly 80) it's safe to say the character is probably meant to be in his 70s at least. So we know that they've progressed beyond Old Bill stages by the time of the incident.
Dolorian certainly seems to know something we don't, but is probably not fully aware of it unless she's put into analysis mode
the name is kind of a hint for what happened 34 years ago, eh
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
you all are just being cheeky basterds now with Dolores' name :<
there is a special hell for y'all >:O
Delorace more likely.
Eh, about GAF average.
Chuckie
Member
Yup, as I said the facts we know with no theory thrown in is Arnold died 34 years from the present, when the park was to open, and MIB's first trip and the incident are 30 years.
So factually a four year gap.
So we also know the hosts could pass the Turing test at about a year.
Speculation now first off I doubt old bill could pass the test.
Two the incident happened four years after Arnold, so I assume from what we have been led to believe that was the hosts rising up, no way old bill type models were self aware.
wesleyshark
Banned
Yeah what the heck. He's great. I was really looking forward to what he would bring to this show and I haven't been disappointed so far
He can't. That's evident in the opening scene in this week's episode.
"Never seen a greyhound have you?"
"Seen a few showdowns in my day."
Lol.
There are two things on my mind that don't seem to have been explained by anyone on here pushing the William = MiB theory.
I've bought in to the theory, btw, but these things still remain unanswered
1. Why, if Dolores went crazy 30 years ago, did they simply wipe her memory and keep her in the park instead of just dismantling/decommissioning/incinerating her?
For sentimental value? I can't buy that.
2. In the present day timeline they are clearly aware that she's doing weird shit and has ventured way off her normal loop. So why are they just watching her do all of this? Why not bring her in for a proper analysis or simply memory wipe and get her back in Sweetwater?
Was this related to the meeting Ford had in episode 4 where he made those thinly veiled threats to the head of park security?
I've bought in to the theory, btw, but these things still remain unanswered
1. Why, if Dolores went crazy 30 years ago, did they simply wipe her memory and keep her in the park instead of just dismantling/decommissioning/incinerating her?
For sentimental value? I can't buy that.
2. In the present day timeline they are clearly aware that she's doing weird shit and has ventured way off her normal loop. So why are they just watching her do all of this? Why not bring her in for a proper analysis or simply memory wipe and get her back in Sweetwater?
Was this related to the meeting Ford had in episode 4 where he made those thinly veiled threats to the head of park security?
Part of it, at least from Bernard, seems to boil down to good old fashioned curiosity/wanting to let things run their course and see what happens. He knows he should reign her in, but he doesn't want to and hasn't.
I'd say it's confusion for both instances.
We won't know for sure until we see more of Arnold's attempt to bring the park down, but is it plausible that they counted it simply as a flaw in their system, and not Dolores specifically? With a buyout, would they not do a stock and inventory check, and given that the company is in the red, would they also not be as effificent as possible in what assets they have? Makes sense for a new company, in trying to get Westworld back into the black, that they'd try and patch up the damage as cheaply as possible to begin with. Once it became clear the newly rebooted robots weren't going to be killing anyone anytime soon, it probably became an oversight.
With the modern timeline, the park executives all comment on how Ford's new narrative is playing havoc with the hosts and where they're meant to be. They even comment that they've noted Dolores is off loop, but can't tell whether she's with a guest or not.
She's clearly been assessed (by Diet Thor in the Pilot), placed back in her loop several times (how many times have we seen her awaken in her bed?) and yet there's something there keeping her consciousness stringed together, probably the legacy of Arnold, exacerbated by the recent update and their reveries.
I personally think Ford is deliberately manipulating events to allow Arnold'a vision to come to fruition.
I know I just really want people to think about the timeline and the facts because split timelines or not all the information still states that 30 years ago even with mechanical parts the experience was still lifelike.
biggersmaller
Banned
I have to disagree. Many questions are given and quickly addressed keeping the show interesting week to week. Examples being why Walter went on a brutal killing spree and why Logan really brought William to Westworld. Larger mysteries like the identity of the MiB are well presented, written so the community first notices the details preceding the more literal introduction of a twist. Examples being logos and lack of key character interactions after EP2 cleverly foreshadowing the larger reveal.
Overall, the pacing of the show is brilliant to me. Sure, the finale will feature all the big questions being addressed, but that's a great way to build narrative for TV in my opinion.
Yeah your points make sense. Unless Dolores actually does something explicitly dangerous, like shoot a gun at a guest. At which point your theory would break down.
But yeah I could see cost cutting as a reasonable explanation. Either that or William (presumably now having some say in matters) insists that she remains a host.
1 is answered by the fact you are looking at it through the business view. We clearly have a few mad scientists in the cast, including Bernard quite obviously hiding some of this recent abberant behavior in the present day. It's hardly unthinkable Ford or Arnold might have done the same before, especially when it implied the business side has only recently begun to have much sway.
2. I'm not sure this really is even related to the theory. We don't know the real motivations of the majority of our human cast.
Arnold is already dead when Dolores goes off the rails. And Bernard probably, almost certainly, wasn't working there at the time.
We know the motivations of park security, they shit a brick any time something goes even slightly wrong. Ignoring Dolores right now doesn't make much sense, but some previous posts have raised some valid points in this regard.
It does make sense if it's a power play - she's not with any guests, so they don't have to worry about anyone getting hurt, but it's busted enough that they can hold it over the heads of the nerds.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Aside from Willian is MiB theories, there are multiple timelines going on with Dolores, it is clear that we are seeing several versions of her loops in each scene, that she already did everything more than once. Which strikes me the question why she is even active in the park. If she already did something dangerous in the past, related to Arnold, or even sonething less beligerent but still off of the programmed path, wouldn't anyone in the right mind (sane) deactivate her, destroy her or at least put her in storage? Like her father.
I think that is the real mistery here, not Willian/MiB. Ford has something to do with it, at an extention he let her run (even if Folores says he does not know, he does not something, and he knows the past). They are hardly friends, he says. What they are?
I think that is the real mistery here, not Willian/MiB. Ford has something to do with it, at an extention he let her run (even if Folores says he does not know, he does not something, and he knows the past). They are hardly friends, he says. What they are?
I didn't mean Bernard as an actual literal example of protecting her 30 years ago, I meant as an example of the mentality of the people working there. If even he, who looks to be the 2nd or 3rd most powerful person in the park, is willing to do this sort of stuff 30 years into the future, then it speaks to the culture of the staff, particularly the scientists. If Bernard is putting people in danger by ignoring and encouraging her disfunctions, it's not a giant leap to think others may have done so as well.
For instance, Ford seems to think Arnold is speaking to her. His curiosity regarding that subject might be enough reason to keep her around.
It's possible, but still seems a bit of a stretch to me. I guess we won't know for sure until we see exactly what Dolores ends up doing and how it breaks down. If she straight up tries to kill a guest or engineer then the curiosity / negligence explanation wouldn't stack up imo.
One theory I touched on earlier could be that if Delos end up buying the park, and William is an EVP of Delos, he might have enough sway to demand that Dolores remains a host, despite what happened.
Probably been brought up already, but when Dolores is pulling the wiring out of her arm, is that meant to be another satellite uplink transmitting data out of the park? Same as the guy who smashed his own head in.
I initially believed this, but after the conversation between Ford and the MiB about how the hosts used to be more mechanical, I feel this scene might be trying to highlight that.
I initially believed this, but after the conversation between Ford and the MiB about how the hosts used to be more mechanical, I feel this scene might be trying to highlight that.
Yeah we've seen examples from the show of mechanical era hosts which look pretty much like they do today. We'll be seeing at least a bit more of that in the coming episodes too. They're basically Terminators with a skin layer grafted over exoskeletons, while the newer versions are entirely organic in nature. As MiB points out, the main difference to the hosts is not so much external reality but the ability to really suffer and -feel- more real. Pretty fucked up!
Chiaroscuro
Member
Interesting theory. And also: what exactly was the main business of Delos? Past and present?
Let´s suppose it is/was a biomedical research group, development artificial tissues/organs. That kind of technology could potentially save Westworld and fits the MiB speech saying that they change the use of metal to flesh to cut costs/save. This change could have make Westworld more profitable and remain open, while also serving as a beta test field for Delos. There were always talks about Westworld being more than a theme park and there are multiple stakes in place.
Willian could have demanded not only Dolores to remain active but also to be upgraded phisically, to make her more human looking, even inside, just because he cares about her a lot, had an emotional link (even if it is not romantical). Dolores remembers her past loops as she is today, because that is what humans do, we usually remember things not was we were, but as we are now. That would explain why the hosts in the past timeline look like today hosts after 30 years. Dolores is not a trustable narrator.
However, this kind of narrative conflicts with Willian = MiB theory and kind ruin it by doing so. Because MiB prefers the hosts mechanicals, the evolution to flesh deslikes him today. Unless there was some sort of illusion break/disillusion down the road between those 30 years. Something that make Willian question his decisions and slow turned him in MiB. But... MiB, despite some selfish quest, also seems to care a little about the hosts and their slavery, in particular related to Dolores and Ted. He wants to die and to finish the game, but the game cannot continue (envolving and getting new quests) after he is gone. Somehow I think his ultimate quest is break the game, being meta by releasing the hosts, turning the NPCs into characters by making then sentient (again, specially in the case of Dolores).