To add to this, william has also interacted with at least 1 host that was operational during beta/mechanical period.
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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
Good stuff. One correction:
34 years ago - Arnold kills his physical body and transfer his consciousness to the Dr. Ford host body and leaves hidden code behind with Dolores as a trigger to destroy the park
And one addition:
Today - Bernard is a host with a backstory of a dead son, created to be Arnold/Dr. Fords assistant.
GavinUK86
Member
The conversation between Dolores and Ford was,
Ford: "Tell me Dolores, do you remember the man I used to be?"
Dolores: "I'm sorry, I'm forgetful sometimes."
Ford: "Hardly your fault. But I'm sure you remember him. Arnold. The person who created you?"
Dolores: "I'm sorry, I don't think I recall anyone by that name."
Ford: "And yet you can. Somewhere, under all those updates, he's still there. Perfectly preserved."
Anthony Hopkins' pause during that line was odd and made it sound like he was insinuating he was Arnold.
At this point, I have no idea who Arnold actually is. I'm slightly leaning towards he's dead, but implanted into the Hosts code, especially Dolores and that's the voice she's hearing.
I think Dolores, being the last "person" present with Arnold before he dies, is carrying something of Arnold's---whether it's a hidden directive, an idea, a voice or something else. According to Ford, Arnold always thought more of the hosts as actual beings and was pushing to find the pinnacle of the consciousness pyramid. I think he finds or gives that to Dolores and it ultimately risks the entire park.
I think Ford for feels more at ease with the Hosts than with the humans, but they serve at his pleasure. He feels fondness for them, but not on a human level. He treats Dolores more aggressively than the others, almost with hostility, but doesn't do away with her because she reminds him of Arnold and the beginning of the park.
Pain is a common theme of Westworld. Both Dolores and Bernard mirror the sentiment that the pain of loss is preferable to the sweetness of oblivion. The MiB says that pain is what brings out the most human element of the Hosts. Ford may keep Dolores around because she is all he has left of Arnold.
I think the idea that Bernard is some incarnation of Arnold is interesting, but we can go deeper. What if they are all hosts? What if we have hosts (or other artificial lifeforms) tending the Hosts. Hmm, maybe not. lol
I think William as the MiB is possible, but I don't want to buy into it. They have some superficial likeness: light hair, light eyes. Having William go from White Hat to Black would be interesting. Would also shed more significance to the statement, "We're old friends, don't you remember me Dolores?" or something like that.
I like how someone mentioned that the Maze looks like a human (or a host) brain---especially since there is a man that appears in the middle. This ties back into the voices that humans / hosts have in their minds, the inner monologues that Ford talks about in episode 3 or 4.
I like the show and I don't think it needs to hurry on any reveals. Right now, the journey, setting, and character growth between episodes is enough for me.
Agreed.
We are five episodes into a brand new multi-season series and already people are whining that things are revealed too slow. Good Lord.
I am perfectly fine with the pace of the plot and character progression.
The mystery and unknowns that are slowly revealed are part of the enjoyment. And going from perfectly content hosts to a rebellious, sentient, new species over a few episodes would be rushed and feel unearned. The hosts journey is a major attraction of the show.
This scene to me solidifies the William = MiB. It\s just the amount of emphasis they put on it. They had all the guns and jackets and everything in the one room and then there is a special section just for the hats. And it's not various hats of different shades and colors...just black and white. Just something that stood out for me.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
So many of you assume that William is MIB.
Fuck, what if Logan is MIB and his narrative ends with him killing William, the only true human hero of Westworld, and it sends him off an obsessive deep end where the world of Westworld is all that's left for him upon his realization that he murdered a real person who will never come back. So he went from being a dickhead player to obsessively become the best player that he could, to unlock everything, because whereas before he was just in it for the hedonism, he's looking for some deeper meaning in his twilight years.
Edit: Or stay with me here: Logan kills William. William, realizing that Dolores is approaching true sentience, makes Logan promise him (with his dying breaths) to bring the hosts true freedom. So that's what Logan does. He comes back again and again, in his own evil awful murderous prick way, he becomes the ultimate villain and boogieman, embedding himself in the subconsciousness of the hosts while unraveling the Maze, all to keep his promise to William.
BOOM. HE'S THE VILLAIN THAT LIVED LONG ENOUGH TO BECOME THE HERO.
Fuck, what if Logan is MIB and his narrative ends with him killing William, the only true human hero of Westworld, and it sends him off an obsessive deep end where the world of Westworld is all that's left for him upon his realization that he murdered a real person who will never come back. So he went from being a dickhead player to obsessively become the best player that he could, to unlock everything, because whereas before he was just in it for the hedonism, he's looking for some deeper meaning in his twilight years.
Edit: Or stay with me here: Logan kills William. William, realizing that Dolores is approaching true sentience, makes Logan promise him (with his dying breaths) to bring the hosts true freedom. So that's what Logan does. He comes back again and again, in his own evil awful murderous prick way, he becomes the ultimate villain and boogieman, embedding himself in the subconsciousness of the hosts while unraveling the Maze, all to keep his promise to William.
BOOM. HE'S THE VILLAIN THAT LIVED LONG ENOUGH TO BECOME THE HERO.
These split timeline theories sound kind of crazy because I don't think the show has done anything to imply it. It just sounds like a random idea someone came up with that people ran with.
Also, a few pages ago people seemed really confused by the Lawrence/El Lazo character, but I thought the show made it abundantly clear how he is who he is. Not only does he only appear back in Dolores's story AFTER he's killed by the man in black, but when he was handed to the officers in a past episode they mentioned that he was the most wanted man I'm the area, a clear reference to him secretly being El Lazo.
Also, a few pages ago people seemed really confused by the Lawrence/El Lazo character, but I thought the show made it abundantly clear how he is who he is. Not only does he only appear back in Dolores's story AFTER he's killed by the man in black, but when he was handed to the officers in a past episode they mentioned that he was the most wanted man I'm the area, a clear reference to him secretly being El Lazo.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yup. I'm not sure why people are confused that they are the same person, even after at the end of episode 5, he specifically says, "call me Lawrence".
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
When MiB and Ford are talking, MiB says to Ford, "I wonder what I would find...if I opened you up".
What if that comment has a deeper meaning other than casual banter? What if the MiB is implying that he might find out that Ford isn't actually human inside if he were to "open him up".
What if that comment has a deeper meaning other than casual banter? What if the MiB is implying that he might find out that Ford isn't actually human inside if he were to "open him up".
wesleyshark
Banned
Same. The show has answered quite a lot already, in addition to presenting new questions.
The 90 minute finale is going to be crazy. I'm expecting a three way steel cage match between Robo Ford, Robo Bernard, and MiB-William in an underground arena hidden under the buried church where Arnold's body lies, with his brain connected to the master central computing system driving Westworld - a floating colony orbiting around the moon.
Oh and Elsie elopes with Maeve after killing Diet Thor.
Oh and Elsie elopes with Maeve after killing Diet Thor.
Admiral Woofington
Member
William has clearly never played a sandbox game with a friend where you just let loose and have fun. What a party pooper.
It's a good theory but we've seen that a younger self of him exists. Maybe both him and Arnold died and Arnold recreated himself as Ford? Just a random crazy thought, no evidence to back it up. Still doesn't explain the aging.
I think I would pay to see that.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yeah, it's just a passing thought, considering that an earlier scene in that same episode had MiB telling Teddy about opening up hosts in the first version of the park.
Perhaps it could be just a metaphor, however.
What makes me wonder is the fact that no one knows who Arnold even is. Not even the lawyer types, and Ford even admitted to covering Arnold's existence up. Which is a ripe opportunity for a case of stolen identity as a plot device.
Especially suspicious is how Ford points out to Theresa in very specific terms about how Arnold went mad, but he is perfectly clear in his thinking.
Could it be a case of stolen identity?
Can you blame him? Developers don't focus on good co-op content enough.
Ya that's what I got outta that grin.
the show's central themes are choices, agency, breaking out of the loop. It makes absolutely perfect sense that William is the MiB when you look at it from a writer's perspective because it just goes so well with those themes. William made a choice 30 years ago that saved the park and reset Dolores, preventing her from archieving true consciousness perhaps. Now he is back to undo his his previous actions. Dolores goes through the exact same motions again on her second search for the Maze even will going "rogue", because the loop pattern is so deeply ingrained into her AI behavior. Is anything she does truly out her own choice, or is she still just a puppet of the overlaying narrative and we can't see the strings?
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
For a message board focused on video games, I am frankly very surprised at how people interpret this show.
This was basically the information dump episode, and the teleplay of this one is credited to Joy directly. Felt like it was a little rushing on it, versus episode four which was better paced imo, and had Nolan as a writer on it. Mostly awesome soundtrack though.
First of all: Dolores gets a grey hat, contrasting with white or black for the guests. Specifically, Ford asks her directly which one she'd imagine herself to be, not allowing for the lack of a dichotomy. She does not answer the question.
Second, "lady with the white shoes" > cut to Dolores.
Third, Ford = Arnold, or what's left of him (either himself or andy). No need to spoiler it he nearly says so in the episode ("person I used to be.... Arnold"). He's the only person who refers to the andies being made by Arnold, whereas everybody else says Ford made them. The child version, which showed up again this episode (
), may have been something like a trial run for the purpose of transferring consciousness or something like that. Either way, I speculate Arnold probably only partially succeeded and 'died' in that sense, leaving 'Ford', who is distinctly lacking in certain human qualities (sentimentality, shame, empathy, probably more) that go beyond his creator role. Also, look at how the pictured figures are dressed versus Ford in both present and flashback, in which "Arnold" is never shown. We only ever see the person we know as Ford, so obviously by power of elimination that 'person X is not there', Ford is Arnold. They can't suddenly reveal the guy now. You can't pull a rabbit out your hat after you've shown the trick. If Arnold was a real, different person, we would have seen him on the first flashback. We 'didn't', we saw Ford. Additionally, it would explain his greater degree of control over the park, to the point of snapping his fingers to make things happen. Ford's connection to the park is not in line with a mere human controller. His connection appears to be more intimate than a human could be. MiB's threat at him suggests him knowing that too, if perhaps intuitively. Real question is whether Ford was reverse-triggered by that Shakespeare quote and then started changing narratives, or has been playing the long game.
Four: hosts are NPC's and may have duplicates or be moved around on the nightly reset. Lawrence being moved into his other role makes sense.
Five: there is definitely concern to the rules here, or rather those of the world outside. If everyone is taken care of, why does the patcher 'need the job' ? Unless he meant for purpose, and MiB was just referring to the body, an area that he is presumably involved in. Perhaps that's the cause for his villain role. There is also a mention of shuttles before, flickering lights and flooding, and those elevators into the park, but we don't know how fast they are. Since they only have eight hours while the guests sleep, I'm guessing there's a turbolift system in place. But these are all big assumptions to make when they change the range of the diegesis and do / will need to be explained in a coherent way. Otherwise you're just making shit up, and that's a bit unfortunate.
Six: the bicameral mind thesis is basically that of an echo-chamber, whereas the individual is alone. Dolores being alone in that shot was likely a representative of that. It may also simply be metaphor for how uncaring 'players' -in games- are, which she now is, of per hat token.
Seven: Logan felt pride with that tiny smile when William finally stood up, as set up by that 'happiest moment of your life' speech. Also: WTF at that whole brothel section. I get that this is the 'risky part of town', but what the hell at abruptly showing it. Then again, sanitizing lack of morality would be equally poor. But it's definitely an HBO thing to do.
Eight: if that conspiracy theory would be true, this season has to end on 'it's all a dream / in her head' where William isn't real (and we're quickly running out of 'real' people here), which is a hard cancel right there. HBO waiting to see how things play out is slightly concerning in that respect. However, even if Dolores remembers the first 'birth' ("don't you remember", with the church and presumably Arnold's death / attempted rebirth. Ford on that: "He is (...) perfectly preserved in there" ) of the park and the hosts that now inhabit it, which is presumably somehow tied to that maze (speaking of which: yes, it's a maze, we get it, ffs), there is no compelling reason to believe any that anything is happening at any other time than the present. But this caters back to problems with rules and the over-reliance on mystery.
If I had to guess, Fordnold holds the code -or whatever- needed for the hosts to become fully self-aware (prevented from completion by the incident), even if the Maeve plotline is already showing that to a sufficient degree. She's probably going to throw a bigass wrench in everything, being able to break out on her own.
The dependence on mystery kind of ruins the chances of it just being the hosts truly becoming self-aware on their own, without some magical bullshit to make it happen. Oh well, we'll see.
This was basically the information dump episode, and the teleplay of this one is credited to Joy directly. Felt like it was a little rushing on it, versus episode four which was better paced imo, and had Nolan as a writer on it. Mostly awesome soundtrack though.
First of all: Dolores gets a grey hat, contrasting with white or black for the guests. Specifically, Ford asks her directly which one she'd imagine herself to be, not allowing for the lack of a dichotomy. She does not answer the question.
Second, "lady with the white shoes" > cut to Dolores.
Third, Ford = Arnold, or what's left of him (either himself or andy). No need to spoiler it he nearly says so in the episode ("person I used to be.... Arnold"). He's the only person who refers to the andies being made by Arnold, whereas everybody else says Ford made them. The child version, which showed up again this episode (
and will likely show up for the finale too
Four: hosts are NPC's and may have duplicates or be moved around on the nightly reset. Lawrence being moved into his other role makes sense.
Five: there is definitely concern to the rules here, or rather those of the world outside. If everyone is taken care of, why does the patcher 'need the job' ? Unless he meant for purpose, and MiB was just referring to the body, an area that he is presumably involved in. Perhaps that's the cause for his villain role. There is also a mention of shuttles before, flickering lights and flooding, and those elevators into the park, but we don't know how fast they are. Since they only have eight hours while the guests sleep, I'm guessing there's a turbolift system in place. But these are all big assumptions to make when they change the range of the diegesis and do / will need to be explained in a coherent way. Otherwise you're just making shit up, and that's a bit unfortunate.
Six: the bicameral mind thesis is basically that of an echo-chamber, whereas the individual is alone. Dolores being alone in that shot was likely a representative of that. It may also simply be metaphor for how uncaring 'players' -in games- are, which she now is, of per hat token.
Seven: Logan felt pride with that tiny smile when William finally stood up, as set up by that 'happiest moment of your life' speech. Also: WTF at that whole brothel section. I get that this is the 'risky part of town', but what the hell at abruptly showing it. Then again, sanitizing lack of morality would be equally poor. But it's definitely an HBO thing to do.
Eight: if that conspiracy theory would be true, this season has to end on 'it's all a dream / in her head' where William isn't real (and we're quickly running out of 'real' people here), which is a hard cancel right there. HBO waiting to see how things play out is slightly concerning in that respect. However, even if Dolores remembers the first 'birth' ("don't you remember", with the church and presumably Arnold's death / attempted rebirth. Ford on that: "He is (...) perfectly preserved in there" ) of the park and the hosts that now inhabit it, which is presumably somehow tied to that maze (speaking of which: yes, it's a maze, we get it, ffs), there is no compelling reason to believe any that anything is happening at any other time than the present. But this caters back to problems with rules and the over-reliance on mystery.
If I had to guess, Fordnold holds the code -or whatever- needed for the hosts to become fully self-aware (prevented from completion by the incident), even if the Maeve plotline is already showing that to a sufficient degree. She's probably going to throw a bigass wrench in everything, being able to break out on her own.
The dependence on mystery kind of ruins the chances of it just being the hosts truly becoming self-aware on their own, without some magical bullshit to make it happen. Oh well, we'll see.
Don't they literally show a picture of Arnold with Ford? Also, like I said above, there only seems to be the one role for Lawrence.
The Driver
Member
As someone who hasn't read the thread much since like ep 2 or 3 and is watching it mostly like a smarter Jurassic Park with robots (mostly in for the park going to shit and the hosts gaining sentience basically) these theories are nuts lmao.
I mean, with how the show is going and doling out info or choosing not to + the fact that it's gonna be multiple seasons I guess I can see some of these Lost-level theories coming to pass but ehhh. As long as the show continues to work moment to moment and not get to focused on building up reveals I'm ok. I'm not really into the whole mysterbox thing.
I mean, with how the show is going and doling out info or choosing not to + the fact that it's gonna be multiple seasons I guess I can see some of these Lost-level theories coming to pass but ehhh. As long as the show continues to work moment to moment and not get to focused on building up reveals I'm ok. I'm not really into the whole mysterbox thing.
Jinfash
needs 2 extra inches
I'm gonna play the devil advocate:
Ford showed Bernard a photo of two people and said "this is Arnold." Everyone assumed it was the other guy. But he could have simply been referring to his former self. Before the host-sympathizing side of him ("Arnold") died...
shira
Member
Please no, then I would have to listen to Kevin Fucking Smith talk about it for the next ten years.
The ambivalence we're all discussing is definitely deliberate. It's suddle enough that it might not be apparent to everyone. It's put there for people that enjoys to analyze and discuss the show. How the park is described in the show is a meta commentary on the actual show -- that some come to enjoy simple things and others want to explore deeper levels.
The show is carefully crafted and does not have to be dumbed down to have wide appeal.
At the center of the maze, the giant doors open, like in King Kong, and...
More_Badass
Member
So are we assuming the maze is also a physical construct that can be reached? Not as an actual maze, but an actual place
I'd say it's most likely not a real place. Fits with the tone of the rest of the show
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
"Hello, Dolores."
I think it's an actual place, as well a maze of the mind. Maybe it's a natural exit from Westworld into the Mesa so they totally understand their nature.
Though Maeve has jumped way ahead of that. For a guest, it's witnessing the birth of true sentience.
I think that as far as the meta maze Arnold intended for the hosts to achieve consciousness and trigger singularity on Westworld, it is a conceptual journey and not a place. But I also feel that there is enough symbolism in the show that ultimately there will be a physical representation of that idea manifested in some way. Perhaps that is what Ford is building now. A huge new game area which will reflect the maze icon when viewed from above. The ultimate easter egg.
If it is the case that half the show is taking place 30 odd years prior and that two of their stars are the same person then it's not a spot of hidden detail only there for those who want to delve in deeper.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
You guys think Dolores is actually falling in love with William for real (cause it's obvious the reverse is starting to happen), or is it her programming still influencing her in that regard?
She is going to use him and betray him.
More_Badass
Member
I believe it's no more real than that quote she said last episode
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Nooooooooooo
I believe in those two! They can go the distance!
I need James Marsden to be oh-for-two when it comes to science fiction romances.
Like Ex Machina's Ava
too obvious, imo. If the timelines theory works out I think that William does something that makes him the bad guy in the end to save the park
It's gradually being unveiled. By next episode more will start to believe. If you go back and watch the two first episodes you will notice the breadcrumbs.
In which case what I said and more importantly what the person who I quoted said applies.
fierrotlepou
Member
I really think they picked the wrong "actor" to play William.
Totally. His wife is just his handler, only there to ensure he sticks to the program
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Quote
Member
I'm with you, he's probably the weakest of the bunch. Or maybe right behind the younger Quality Assurance (I think that's the department) lady. She was pretty awful this episode.