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What Spring TV shows will you be watching? - 2014 Edition -

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R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Shows to watch:

Returning:

Sherlock
Community
Dracula
Rick and Morty
Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Justified
Revolution
Modern Family
American Horror Story: Coven
Banshee
Girls
Archer
Nashville
The Walking Dead
House of Cards
The Americans
Scandal
Portlandia
Vikings
Hannibal
Orphan Black
Da Vinci's Demons
Game of Thrones
Hemlock Grove
Legit
Mad Men
Rectify
Veep

New:

Space Dandy
The Spoils of Babylon
Enlisted
Helix
True Detective
Chozen
Looking
Klondike
Black Sails
and the OSCAR goes to...
The Red Road
Story of the Jews
The Address
Cosmos: A Space-Time Odyssey
Fargo
Penny Dreadful
Salem
The Divide
The Musketeers
Turn
Vicious

Maybe:

Sex/Now
The 7.39
When Calls the Heart (???)
Uncle
Flowers in the Attic
Fleming: The Man Who Would Be Bond
Resurrection
Mind Games
Babylon
Believe
Breathless
Britain's Great War
From There to Here
New Worlds
The Ark
Those Who Kill

...

Good god that is a lot of television.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Wow there's some shitty looking shows on the list. Mind of a Man seems like a solid early contender for worst new game or variety show 2014.


Edit: we're reduced to ironically watching Hallmark Channel movies?!
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
Wow there's some shitty looking shows on the list. Mind of a Man seems like a solid early contender for worst new game or variety show 2014.


Edit: we're reduced to ironically watching Hallmark Channel movies?!
Click to expand...

dIIBl2h.png
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I re watched VM last year and I was surprised to note how much better S2 and S3 held up on DVD than live. Annoying characters like Jackie, Piz, and Parker are actually used quite sparingly and the arc mysteries hold up better when you're marathoning them and suffer episodes don't mean waiting a week to get to the good stuff

Piz still sucks though. I think an interesting fan edit could remove about 90% of his screen-time without impacting the plot of the series.

Pity he's in the movie.
 
H

Hours Left

Member
So I just learned that the channel that usually airs Cougar Town in Canada is not doing so this year.

That really SUCKS. >_<
 
W

Whooter

Member
Stumpokapow said:
I re watched VM last year and I was surprised to note how much better S2 and S3 held up on DVD than live. Annoying characters like Jackie, Piz, and Parker are actually used quite sparingly and the arc mysteries hold up better when you're marathoning them and suffer episodes don't mean waiting a week to get to the good stuff

Piz still sucks though. I think an interesting fan edit could remove about 90% of his screen-time without impacting the plot of the series.

Pity he's in the movie.
Click to expand...

Just finished rewatching it this week in advance of the movie. Agree on S2 & 3. They were much better than I remembered (hadn't seen them since original airing.)
 
C

Cornballer

Member
Has anyone put together a thread for Enlisted yet? It's getting great reviews and looks thread-worthy. *nudges someone else to do it*
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Premiering today:

Mind of a Man - GSN - 8/7c

The Middle - ABC - 8/7c

Revolution - NBC - 8/7c

Super Fun Night - ABC - 8:30/7:30c & 9:30/8:30c

Love Thy Neighbor - OWN - 9/8c

Law & Order: SVU - NBC - 9/8c

Modern Family - ABC - 9/8c

Nova - PBS - 9/8c

Psych - USA - 9/8c

Chicago P.D. - NBC - 10/9c

Chasing Shackleton - PBS - 10/9c

The Real World - MTV - 10/9c

American Horror Story: Coven - FX - 10/9c

Reviews:

Entertainment Weekly - TV REVIEW Chicago P.D.

P.D. is as straightforward and meat-and-potatoes as police dramas get--Dick Wolf comfort food.
Click to expand...

Tim Goodman - Chicago PD: TV Review

There’s enough hardened acting chops to make Chicago PD a watchable distraction in the Dick Wolf mode. Will it end up being something consistently good? It probably depends on your definition of good.
Click to expand...

USA Today - 'Chicago P.D.' stands for Pretty Dismal

Designed for people who want the legal clock turned back, not just to before the Constitution, but before the Magna Carta, Chicago P.D. is an insult to Chicago, police departments and viewers alike.
Click to expand...
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Has someone called the Looking OT?

I'd also like to do The Red Road and Resurrection. And TheOddOne, are you doing Rectify season 2?
 
B

backflip10019

Member
I know it's now officially 2014, but the Real World Ex-plosion is pretty damn entertaining. I kind of hate most reality TV (with the exception of Masterchef Junior and Shark Tank), but damn if the Real World didn't suck me in. Those people are such train wrecks. It's great.
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Premiering today:

Parks and Recreation - NBC - 8:30/9:30c

White Collar - USA - 9/8c

The Spoils of Babylon - IFC - 10/9c

Reviews:

Post Gazette - TV review: 'Spoils of Babylon' a campy hoot

If the first two installments are any indication, Spoils of Babylon will be a short-lived but entertaining hoot, an ideal addition to the IFC "Always On. Slightly Off" comedy brand that includes "Portlandia," "The Birthday Boys" and "Maron."
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LA Times - Review: 'The Spoils of Babylon' too retro for its own good

Some of these bits work very well, albeit as free-floating shards of comedy.... But parody works best when its subject is either truly iconic or still relatively fresh in the minds of the audience and, mercifully, the B-list miniseries of yesteryear are neither.
Click to expand...

Washington Post - The Spoils of Babylon

Part of the joke is that The Spoils of Babylon was utterly unwatchable, and that’s why the network never showed it; it seems they achieved that goal a little too well.
Click to expand...
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
"Those Who Kill" will air on March 3.

Press release:
CHLOË SEVIGNY AND JAMES D’ARCY STAR IN THE NEW A&E NETWORK ORIGINAL SERIES “THOSE WHO KILL”

SERIALIZED DRAMA SERIES PREMIERES MONDAY, MARCH 3 AT 10 PM ET/PT

Pasadena, CA – January 9, 2014 – A&E Network will premiere the new original scripted series “Those Who Kill” on Monday, March 3 at 10 PM ET/PT. The suspenseful drama stars Academy Award-nominated and Golden Globe-winning actress Chloë Sevigny (“Big Love,” Boys Don’t Cry) and James D’Arcy ( Hitchcock, Cloud Atlas). Based on the Danish crime series format inspired by the bestselling work of author Elsebeth Egholm, the thrilling drama follows Catherine Jensen (Sevigny), a recently promoted homicide detective who tracks down serial killers and relentlessly seeks the truth behind the disappearance of her brother. Pittsburgh serves as the picturesque backdrop for the ten-episode serialized drama.

“Glen Morgan and the incredible team behind the ‘Those Who Kill’ have crafted a captivating drama that we’re thrilled to add to our slate of original scripted series,” said David McKillop, Executive Vice President and General Manager of A&E Network. “As the story unfolds, these damaged yet good-intentioned characters are brought to life by the talented cast.”

As a freshly minted homicide detective, Catherine Jensen has garnered a reputation for overstepping her boundaries in her unrelenting pursuit to solve Pittsburgh’s most gruesome murders.Motivated by her past, including the disappearance of her brother and the suspicion that her stepfather is a serial killer, she often finds herself emotionally connected to the victims she’s investigating.Jensen enlists the help of Thomas Schaeffer (D’Arcy), a forensic psychologist who has a tumultuous relationship with the police department, to provide insight into her cases and her personal investigation into her stepfather. He too finds himself deeply connected to each case, but often through the killer, which proves to be a hazardous undertaking.The pair shares a skewed sense of judgment that often puts them, and sometimes even their families, at risk.As these two captivating yet flawed characters come together, their bond often rescues them from their individual demons but may be the source of more harmful tribulations.

“Those Who Kill” is produced by Imagine Television (“24,” “Friday Night Lights”) and Fox 21 (“Homeland,” “Sons Of Anarchy”).Brian Grazer and Francie Calfo are executive producers for Imagine Television. Glen Morgan (“The X-Files,” “Millennium”) wrote the pilot episode and also serves as executive producer/showrunner. David Petrarca serves as executive producer and directs several episodes.Peter Bose and Jonas Allen are executive producers for Miso Films.
Click to expand...
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
TheOddOne said:
"Those Who Kill" will air on March 3.

Press release:
Click to expand...

Serial killer drama, feel like we haven't seen one of those in a while..


I don't think there's a TCA thread...
-Tim Goodman mentioned already having a screener for the first episode of Lindelof's The Leftovers, for some reason I haven't thought about that show being in the spring, I guess HBO is going to pair it with GoT?
-There was a panel for Klondike this morning, which naturally turned into critics fawning about Richard Madden on Twitter.
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
ivysaur12 said:
Has someone called the Looking OT?
Click to expand...

Yesh, me. :3

Steelyuhas said:
I don't think there's a TCA thread...
-Tim Goodman mentioned already having a screen for the first episode of Lindelof's The Leftovers, for some reason I haven't thought about that show being in the spring, I guess HBO is going to pair it with GoT?
-There was a panel for Klondike this morning, which naturally turned into critics fawning about Richard Madden on Twitter.
Click to expand...

You should make a TCA thread!

I'm surprised that critics already have the first episode of The Leftovers though. I thought it was a little further down the road than that.

It's so fucking sad how many wannabe sophisticated cable dramas are ultimately just, "Here is a show about people dying." #tca14 - Todd VanDerWerff &#8207;@tvoti
Click to expand...

Hmm, wonder which shows he's talking about?
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
RatskyWatsky said:
You should make a TCA thread!

I'm surprised that critics already have the first episode of The Leftovers though. I thought it was a little further down the road than that.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a lot of work! (I kind of assume there isn't really much demand for one)

There's an HBO block this afternoon, so maybe we'll find out dates for The Leftovers.
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Steelyuhas said:
That sounds like a lot of work! (I kind of assume there isn't really much demand for one)

There's an HBO block this afternoon, so maybe we'll find out dates for The Leftovers.
Click to expand...

They should also announce pickups for Westworld and Milch's new show. *crosses fingers*
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
^^ Super bum!

Air dates for some HBO series:

BO CONFIRMS DEBUT DATES FOR RETURNING SERIES GAME OF THRONES,

VEEP AND VICE, AND NEW SERIES SILICON VALLEY

LOS ANGELES, Jan. 9, 2014 – HBO has confirmed the debut dates for the upcoming seasons of the returning series GAME OF THRONES, VEEP and VICE, and the new series SILICON VALLEY.

GAME OF THRONES kicks off its fourth season SUNDAY, APRIL 6 (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET/PT). Based on the popular book series “A Song of Ice and Fire,” by George R.R. Martin, this hit Emmy®-winning fantasy series chronicles an epic struggle for power in a vast and violent fantasy kingdom. Members of the ensemble cast include Emmy® and Golden Globe winner Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey, Emilia Clarke, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Kit Harington, Natalie Dormer, Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner. Executive producers, David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, Carolyn Strauss, Frank Doelger, Bernadette Caulfield; co-executive producers, Guymon Casady, Vince Gerardis, George R.R. Martin. The first official trailer for season four will air on HBO this Sunday, Jan. 12, immediately before the debut of “True Detective” at 9:00 p.m.

VEEP returns the same evening, kicking off its third season SUNDAY, APRIL 6 (10:00-10:30 p.m.). Created by Armando Iannucci, this Emmy®-nominated series stars Emmy® winner Julia Louis-Dreyfus as former senator Selina Meyer, who becomes vice president, only to discover The Job is nothing like she expected, but everything she was warned about. The show also stars Emmy® winner Tony Hale, Anna Chlumsky, Matt Walsh, Reid Scott, Timothy C. Simons, Sufe Bradshaw and Kevin Dunn. Iannucci executive produces along with Christopher Godsick and Frank Rich.

Also that same evening, SILICON VALLEY debuts SUNDAY, APRIL 6 (10:30-11:00 p.m.). Mike Judge (“Office Space,” “King of the Hill”) brings his irreverent brand of humor to HBO in this new comedy series, which looks at the modern-day epicenter of the high-tech Gold Rush, where the people most qualified to succeed are the least capable of handling success. The cast includes Thomas Middleditch, TJ Miller, Zach Woods, Kumail Nanjiani, Martin Starr, Josh Brener, Christopher Evan Welch and Amanda Crew. Matt Ross guest stars. Mike Judge, Alec Berg, John Altschuler, Dave Krinsky, Michael Rotenberg, Tom Lassally and Scott Rudin executive produce. The series was created by Judge & Altschuler & Krinsky.

VICE returns for its second season FRIDAY, MARCH 14 (11:00-11:30 p.m.). HBO partners with the premier new media company VICE on this innovative news magazine show, hosted by VICE founder Shane Smith, covering the kinds of stories often overlooked by mainstream media outlets. The weekly series is executive produced by Bill Maher, Shane Smith and Eddy Moretti, VICE’s chief creative officer, with CNN’s Fareed Zakaria serving as consultant.
Click to expand...
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Killer Women is dull pandering trash. She's a strong woman, she's one of the boys, she wears a cowboy hat, she still looks sexy in a dress, she doesn't need a man, every other character is a man and she needs them all to help her, she has supernatural powers of deduction, terrible accent. It took me like 10 minutes to figure out that the horde of people in the church shooting guns were regular Texans not a bunch of assassins. The plot was dumb. The driving away from an explosion was dumb. The plot of the episode involved a Texas Ranger and two DEA agents making an obviously illegal raid into Mexican to shoot up a cartel and rescue presumably Mexican nationals and bring them back to the US. One of the DEA agents is shot and killed. This is never addressed and the episode ends with the Texas Ranger's boss saying "I better not hear you involved in any covert DEA raids". Did the people not file the paperwork for this? So basically it's every dumb cop show, only dumber.

Intelligence is substantially worse. Imagine a dumb cop show, only the people are cyber cops working for US Cyber Command, and half the lines are dumb fake hacker speak, and all the actors are terrible, and the lead character has a superpower because he has an instant brain computer hooked up to the internet and can use satellites to see through walls or some shit. Zero chemistry between the leads despite an obvious setup for romance. Marg Helgenberger, who has some screen presence, is wasted in a dumb omniscient hard-ass boss with no characterization. Also Holloway's partner, who is assigned to protect him because he's a valuable cyber-asset or some shit, is apparently a Secret Service agent, but Holloway does as much badass ninja commando stuff as she does so I don't actually understand why he needs protection at all. At one point Holloway, at gun-point, cyber-hacks into another team member's sniper rifle viewfinder in a building across the way and vocally guides the sniper into shooting the bad guy. This is the level of stupid we're dealing with. Also Holloway's wife, not seen until the final shot of the pilot, was believed dead and was a triple agent but she's not dead she's alive OMG ??? The plot involved a rogue Chinese communist who opposes reforms kidnapping an engineer to steal the brain-internet technology. A mainline Chinese spy negotiates for his capture alive in exchange for giving information on Holloway's zombie cyber-wife. Stuxnet. Weaponized Malware. Global Information Superhighway.

The 7.39 on the other hand is pretty great. It's the story of two people in challenging or dead relationship situations who meet by happenstance on a train and fall for each other. 2 parts, each one hour. It's basically a treatment of infidelity. I'm reviewing it having only seen the first half, so who knows what the ending is like, but I thought the pressures that led the two to connect were believable and despite it being a spring-fall kind of relationship, I bought the personal chemistry. Nice actors, well shot. Definitely feels more like a film than a TV series in its pacing. Most of the reaction I'm reading online has people arguing the infidelity is WRONG and trying to decide whether the man or the woman is more to BLAME. I can't say I agree. Infidelity is obviously a hurtful thing that signals intense problems in a relationship, but in many cases it's the action that causes the end of a relationship, which is a net good long-term. Some other reviews basically called it low stakes, first world problems, middle class fantasy, whatever. But there's a scene in the first episode where the male points out he spends more time looking at the same people on the train he takes to commute than he does with his kids, and I think that kind of math (more time with coworkers, more time with student peers, etc) applies to a lot of people and is the root of a lot of family and relationship troubles. So to me it felt pretty authentic. I'm looking forward to finishing it.
 
A

AngmarsKing701

Member
Stumpokapow said:
intelligence is substantially worse. Imagine a dumb cop show, only the people are cyber cops working for US Cyber Command, and half the lines are dumb fake hacker speak, and all the actors are terrible, and the lead character has a superpower because he has an instant brain computer hooked up to the internet and can use satellites to see through walls or some shit. Zero chemistry between the leads despite an obvious setup for romance. Marg Helgenberger, who has some screen presence, is wasted in a dumb omniscient hard-ass boss with no characterization. Also Holloway's partner, who is assigned to protect him because he's a valuable cyber-asset or some shit, is apparently a Secret Service agent, but Holloway does as much badass ninja commando stuff as she does so I don't actually understand why he needs protection at all. At one point Holloway, at gun-point, cyber-hacks into another team member's sniper rifle viewfinder in a building across the way and vocally guides the sniper into shooting the bad guy. This is the level of stupid we're dealing with. Also Holloway's wife, not seen until the final shot of the pilot, was believed dead and was a triple agent but she's not dead she's alive OMG ??? The plot involved a rogue Chinese communist who opposes reforms kidnapping an engineer to steal the brain-internet technology. A mainline Chinese spy negotiates for his capture alive in exchange for giving information on Holloway's zombie cyber-wife. Stuxnet. Weaponized Malware. Global Information Superhighway.
Click to expand...
Areyounotentertained.jpg
 
W

Whooter

Member
Stumpokapow said:
Intelligence is substantially worse. Imagine a dumb cop show, only the people are cyber cops working for US Cyber Command, and half the lines are dumb fake hacker speak, and all the actors are terrible, and the lead character has a superpower because he has an instant brain computer hooked up to the internet and can use satellites to see through walls or some shit. Zero chemistry between the leads despite an obvious setup for romance. Marg Helgenberger, who has some screen presence, is wasted in a dumb omniscient hard-ass boss with no characterization. Also Holloway's partner, who is assigned to protect him because he's a valuable cyber-asset or some shit, is apparently a Secret Service agent, but Holloway does as much badass ninja commando stuff as she does so I don't actually understand why he needs protection at all. At one point Holloway, at gun-point, cyber-hacks into another team member's sniper rifle viewfinder in a building across the way and vocally guides the sniper into shooting the bad guy. This is the level of stupid we're dealing with. Also Holloway's wife, not seen until the final shot of the pilot, was believed dead and was a triple agent but she's not dead she's alive OMG ??? The plot involved a rogue Chinese communist who opposes reforms kidnapping an engineer to steal the brain-internet technology. A mainline Chinese spy negotiates for his capture alive in exchange for giving information on Holloway's zombie cyber-wife. Stuxnet. Weaponized Malware. Global Information Superhighway.
Click to expand...

Not that it'll change your opinion, but you misinterpreted that. Gabriel's wife is seen in the opening of the show in the "flashback", and the person that wakes up at the end is the Chinese agent that they planted the second chip into.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Stumpokapow said:
Intelligence is substantially worse. Imagine a dumb cop show, only the people are cyber cops working for US Cyber Command, and half the lines are dumb fake hacker speak, and all the actors are terrible, and the lead character has a superpower because he has an instant brain computer hooked up to the internet and can use satellites to see through walls or some shit. Zero chemistry between the leads despite an obvious setup for romance. Marg Helgenberger, who has some screen presence, is wasted in a dumb omniscient hard-ass boss with no characterization. Also Holloway's partner, who is assigned to protect him because he's a valuable cyber-asset or some shit, is apparently a Secret Service agent, but Holloway does as much badass ninja commando stuff as she does so I don't actually understand why he needs protection at all. At one point Holloway, at gun-point, cyber-hacks into another team member's sniper rifle viewfinder in a building across the way and vocally guides the sniper into shooting the bad guy. This is the level of stupid we're dealing with. Also Holloway's wife, not seen until the final shot of the pilot, was believed dead and was a triple agent but she's not dead she's alive OMG ??? The plot involved a rogue Chinese communist who opposes reforms kidnapping an engineer to steal the brain-internet technology. A mainline Chinese spy negotiates for his capture alive in exchange for giving information on Holloway's zombie cyber-wife. Stuxnet. Weaponized Malware. Global Information Superhighway.
Click to expand...

The bold is so unbelievably spot on. I have a particular problem with the Partner/Bodyguard because at one point
she's described as having saved the Presidents daughter from a kidnapping attempt, being stabbed multiple times during the attempt and still taking out all four guys and "having the girl home by dinner." Shortly there after the two main characters get into a gun fight and she proceeds to shove him out of the way and fire at 5 or 6 guys shooting at her while standing completely in the open. Oh and two of the gunmen have fully auto weapons. And she only gets shot in the arm.
It's beyond ridiculous. Even Chuck supplemented the obvious eye candy protector with a character that actually effectively came off as battle hardened and combat aware. Intelligence utterly fails at this which is really off putting considering it's serious tone.
 
N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
Stumpokapow said:
Intelligence is substantially worse. Imagine a dumb cop show, only the people are cyber cops working for US Cyber Command, and half the lines are dumb fake hacker speak, and all the actors are terrible, and the lead character has a superpower because he has an instant brain computer hooked up to the internet and can use satellites to see through walls or some shit. Zero chemistry between the leads despite an obvious setup for romance. Marg Helgenberger, who has some screen presence, is wasted in a dumb omniscient hard-ass boss with no characterization. Also Holloway's partner, who is assigned to protect him because he's a valuable cyber-asset or some shit, is apparently a Secret Service agent, but Holloway does as much badass ninja commando stuff as she does so I don't actually understand why he needs protection at all. At one point Holloway, at gun-point, cyber-hacks into another team member's sniper rifle viewfinder in a building across the way and vocally guides the sniper into shooting the bad guy. This is the level of stupid we're dealing with. Also Holloway's wife, not seen until the final shot of the pilot, was believed dead and was a triple agent but she's not dead she's alive OMG ??? The plot involved a rogue Chinese communist who opposes reforms kidnapping an engineer to steal the brain-internet technology. A mainline Chinese spy negotiates for his capture alive in exchange for giving information on Holloway's zombie cyber-wife. Stuxnet. Weaponized Malware. Global Information Superhighway.
Click to expand...

I actually liked it. As escapist television, it's alright.

Bear with me, but I'm going on a POI IS AWESOME tangent again.

But there's so much more they could do with it. It's just the pilot, so I'll chalk it up to early season jitters. Person of Interest's first couple of episodes were a little shaky compared to the rest of the series, but it shot up into the stratosphere in no time.

There's a lot of potential with the concept. Holloway waxes pretty philosophical about the melding of man and machine in interviews, but there was none of that in the pilot. I hope they don't waste the potential.

They should at least look at POI for the attention to detail when it comes to tech. Intelligence's pilot just randomly throws jargon. POI actually uses science and fact and wraps it around the fiction in a plausible and exciting way.

There is potential here. I hope they can realize it. They should look to POI. I'm not saying make the show the exact same as POI. If you want escapist television, there isn't anything wrong with it. I like it! But POI accomplishes a perfect balance, and for a show so compatible in concept, it wouldn't be a hindrance.

Jest Chillin said:
The bold is so unbelievably spot on. I have a particular problem with the Partner/Bodyguard because at one point
she's described as having saved the Presidents daughter from a kidnapping attempt, being stabbed multiple times during the attempt and still taking out all four guys and "having the girl home by dinner." Shortly there after the two main characters get into a gun fight and she proceeds to shove him out of the way and fire at 5 or 6 guys shooting at her while standing completely in the open. Oh and two of the gunmen have fully auto weapons. And she only gets shot in the arm.
It's beyond ridiculous. Even Chuck supplemented the obvious eye candy protector with a character that actually effectively came off as battle hardened and combat aware. Intelligence utterly fails at this which is really off putting considering it's serious tone.
Click to expand...

You know what, I agree with you.

POI has characters that we're told are badass. But they also show it. People are actually... intelligent on POI. They make common sense decisions and follow logic. In Intelligence, that was random as fuck and make Riley look incompetent as fuck. The character is a badass Secret Service agent. She has to act consistently with that idea, and how they showed it is inconsistent with what we are told.
 
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