ReadingRambo
Member
If those words or actions were meant to illicit violence then yes, they are "fighting words". This is clearly a very grey area because we are dealing with a K-9, and that's where I think the interesting discussion is.
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What the fuck: NFL Player Could Face 7 Years in Prison for Barking at Police K-9 dog
- Thread starter Thebeardofknowledge
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If those words or actions were meant to illicit violence then yes, they are "fighting words". This is clearly a very grey area because we are dealing with a K-9, and that's where I think the interesting discussion is.
The Albatross
Member
Player is obviously an idiot (Oakland Raiders), but it's ridiculous that this is a crime, especially given the circumstances before a football game... Why the hell is there a police dog on the field or in the locker room before a football game anyway?
If the police are going to have a K-9 at a game, then the dog has to be trained to handle the rowdy atmosphere, and one where a visiting player is getting himself fired up before the game. This includes groups of men yelling and shouting at each other, acting very differently than they would when they're out doing non-game things.
If you can tell the dog is going crazy, you obviously shouldn't taunt him, but that shouldn't be criminal or punishable especially in this circumstance.
If the police are going to have a K-9 at a game, then the dog has to be trained to handle the rowdy atmosphere, and one where a visiting player is getting himself fired up before the game. This includes groups of men yelling and shouting at each other, acting very differently than they would when they're out doing non-game things.
If you can tell the dog is going crazy, you obviously shouldn't taunt him, but that shouldn't be criminal or punishable especially in this circumstance.
Can you cite the Supreme Court opinion on fighting words? You should be able to call a cop a pig, I'm pretty sure that the Supreme Court has not overruled this Washington case which found calling cops "pigs" protected speech:
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...-amendment-protects-profanity-against-police/
Idiotic thing to do. I think a fine is reasonable.
http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/article44204421.html
Especially if this is true. Intentionally riling up a police dog and asking to let it loose is just...why?
http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/article44204421.html
Especially if this is true. Intentionally riling up a police dog and asking to let it loose is just...why?
I'm pretty sure if he went up to a cop and sad "hey cop, hey cop" and pounded his chest they would get a big laugh out of it.
It wasnt like it was during some kinda investigation
Baron Von Beans
Member
Exactly my thoughts. Dude is a complete moron for doing it. Jail time is absurd, but I'm not opposed to a fine. These are NFL players, people all across the country look up to and respect these people. Doing something like antagonizing a service dog doesn't show good common sense.
Even if you did, 7 years is excessive.
ReadingRambo
Member
The charges discussed in this article were obstruction charges brought against a minor that were administered during the course of an in-progress investigation. It's not quite the same as walking up to a cop on the street or in his car and hurling insults.
This article does a much better job that I could of detailing the nuances of 1st amendment jurisprudence. TLDR: It's a bad idea to go and hurl insults at a cop. The results of cases vary pretty wildly, but language has been narrowed to exclude insults directed towards and individual that are meant to illicit a violent response from a rational person from protected speech. When the accuser is a police officer, there does exist an expectation of heightened restraint on the officer's part over that of an ordinary citizen. Also in these cases the 'actions' (posturing, gesturing) are also taken into account to discover intent. Now, with this particular case, the actions and taunting were done towards an animal that is also police officer. It's a fascinating case really.
Working dogs are a very special class of animal, as had been mentioned, K9 units are considered officers - it may be "just a dog" but in reality, you're threatening an officer. It makes it worse that this guy has a public role - so, they have to take it seriously or people may emulate his behavior.
It takes a ton of time, effort, and money to train these animals - but they are animals, and cannot differentiate between a true threat and a loser that is taunting them. That confusion in the field can put the dog or the officer's life at risk ... Just because this guy wanted to make an ass of himself. That is why there is such a penalty
I really don't feel bad when stupid people are punished. I'll save my outrage for when an officer abuses his authority, not for when a dickwad steps in his own shit.
It takes a ton of time, effort, and money to train these animals - but they are animals, and cannot differentiate between a true threat and a loser that is taunting them. That confusion in the field can put the dog or the officer's life at risk ... Just because this guy wanted to make an ass of himself. That is why there is such a penalty
I really don't feel bad when stupid people are punished. I'll save my outrage for when an officer abuses his authority, not for when a dickwad steps in his own shit.
ReadingRambo
Member
By "control a dog" do you mean keep it from getting upset? That's not always possible especially when the dog is trained to react to aggressive/threatening behavior. The dog did what it was supposed to. If by "control your dog" you mean "keep it restrained" then that's exactly what happened.
Also, I had to laugh at the bolded part. It's a dog not a Hellfire missile.
It was an amped up dude coming out of a locker room. The dog was barking at the commotion. The amped up dude who was probably already screaming saw the dog barking the same as everyone else and he turns to it and basically say "YEAH DOG GET PUMPED DOG YEAH BOY YEAH"
Get that dog out of there if it's not fit for the commotion.
Vicetrailia
Banned
My guess is he caught the dog barking its ass off at passing people and then proceeded to say "yeah yeah yeah bark bark woof woof blah blah".
Come on, you're being disingenuous. I am talking about police officers. Your link specifically cited Gooding v. Wilson, which found that saying "White son of a bitch, Ill kill you, and You son of a bitch, Ill choke you to death to an officer is protected speech.
It also cites Lewis v. City of New Orlean, which struck down a law prohibiting using obscene or opprobrious language to police officers.
And also City of Houston v. Hill, which overturned a conviction for making offensive comments to a police officer.
You can call a cop a pig. You must not have seen many protests in your time.
By the way, a police dog is not considered a police officer under the law. There are separate laws for crimes connected to treatment of police officers and treatment of police dogs. A police dog would not be sued for a civil rights violation, for instance.
It was an amped up dude coming out of a locker room. The dog was barking at the commotion. The amped up dude who was probably already screaming saw the dog barking the same as everyone else and he turns to it and basically say "YEAH DOG GET PUMPED DOG YEAH BOY YEAH"
Get that dog out of there if it's not fit for the commotion.
Or, alternatively, the guy can find control of himself, not be stupid, and follow the law. The responsibility is completely and utterly on him. No one else.
ReadingRambo
Member
How is it "disingenuous" that I linked you to information about the complicated history of this exception to the First Amendment. If you read it all you'd see that there isn't actual consistency and it varies on a case by case basis. I'm not trying to win an argument here. And police dogs are police officers. That's the whole reason there is even an investigation in this case.
Your guess would be wrong. The dog responded to the taunts because it was interpreted as a threat.
You're right, there's no reason for them to not put an animal who is subject to specific, serious, and obscure laws and can't distinguish between threats and loud noises in a confined space known primarily for having large aggressive men making loud noises.
ReadingRambo
Member
It happens 16 times a week, every week of the fall. It's an issue here because Ray-Ray directed taunts at the K-9.
It's amazing how quick bullies cry when falling under scrutiny, police are the most thin skinned people. it's gotten so bad even their dogs are exhibiting this behavior.
He agitated their dog, now they want to punish him. Grow the fuck up and be professional about your job cops. It's fucking silly to think that cops have never been to live sporting event' outside of work and screamed some shit at a opposing player (or home player) a time or two.
Also, I'm going to venture a guess that Chris Christie will try to stump that this is Obama's fault because BLM or some shit or not coming out in defense of the cops who had their feelfeels hurt by a scary monster intent on doing harm to them. Oh well, at least it didn't happen in Chicago or they should have shot him 16 times, 14 of those after he hit the ground. Chicago cop shoots 17 year old 16 times because he walked away.
He agitated their dog, now they want to punish him. Grow the fuck up and be professional about your job cops. It's fucking silly to think that cops have never been to live sporting event' outside of work and screamed some shit at a opposing player (or home player) a time or two.
Also, I'm going to venture a guess that Chris Christie will try to stump that this is Obama's fault because BLM or some shit or not coming out in defense of the cops who had their feelfeels hurt by a scary monster intent on doing harm to them. Oh well, at least it didn't happen in Chicago or they should have shot him 16 times, 14 of those after he hit the ground. Chicago cop shoots 17 year old 16 times because he walked away.
It's an issue here because someone decided to make it an issue, unless this is actually the first time in a 256-game NFL season in all the seasons going back to probably at least 9/11 that a player has barked back at a dog in the tunnel.
The dog didn't have a problem until there was a specific threat. It wasn't doing anything -- he initiated the problem. These dogs are in frwaling warzones and handle their shit fine -- until they're threatened and try to do what they're trained to do.
There is no excuse for his behavior; stop trying to find one or blame someone else.
Ol No Bones
Banned
I bet the dog's name was Rommel.
It is disingenuous because you said "TLDR It's a bad idea to hurl insults at cops" when the jurisprudence says the opposite. There is much more consistency than you think.
Police dogs aren't police officers. The specific law violated in this case is about taunting police dogs, not taunting police officers.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Anyone that is ok with this is an idiot..fuck outta here. Oh, and shoot a dog = shooting an officer.
PataHikari
Banned
What a surprise the cops are out to ruin the life of a black man.
There was no problem. There was no behavior to excuse.
He was acting in a typical and generally accepted manner for the place he was in, and his behavior would've gone without notice or scorn had the dog been any dog that wasn't a police dog. But because it is, and because police dogs have certain rules floating around them that aren't widely known, the phrase "up to seven years" is suddenly in the discussion. Let alone the fact that no one can seem to get straight as the whether it was a threat (it wasn't) or a taunt, when it was in all likelihood neither, unless "GET HYPE" falls into one of those categories.
The behavior that would need an excuse here is the decision to make this a serious legal matter.
It's not a crime to feed a cop chocolate. It's probably a crime to feed a cop's dog chocolate.
TheLaughingStock
Member
There are a lot of laws out there.
PataHikari
Banned
It's a crime to deliberately poison animals in general. A cop's attack dog shouldn't get any particular special treatment.
Latvian Hitman
Member
I guess I'm getting bitter with age, but I kinda' wish the officer had just let go of the dog's leash/collar and let him slam the dude to the turf.
That said- a fine sounds appropriate. Should be a nice, hefty one, though.
That said- a fine sounds appropriate. Should be a nice, hefty one, though.
But we still treat cops like people, haha.
nrvalleytime
Member
You're a professional athlete in a stadium with 50,000 thousand people, and you taunt a highly trained, deadly animal who only knows that his job is to stop people that piss it off and commits crimes.
So yeah. You tell me how a fine isn't right.
That's a stretch, yeah? Oppression is real, but this is a fine. Nothing more.
nrvalleytime
Member
You missed the part where he started it, right? Also, it's a freaking animal. Control your own impulses, because the dog's are certainly far more instinctive. Just makes that guy stupid.
Also - let's not forget the image problem the NFL has with dogs. Barking at a trained animal doesn't reflect very well when they have a guy playing in the same stadium who killed them for sport.
Doesn't explain why a highly trained deadly animal was around a bunch of hyped up football players in the first place though.
nrvalleytime
Member
True, but these animals have been present in nearly every major sporting event in the past twenty years. Not a new thing. I don't think any have been accused of bad behavior in any story as well.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Sounds like a great idea, except this particular dog will put you on the ground in a fetal position in about .5 seconds once it gets to you.
Jack Scofield
Member
I'm shocked that an NFL player would engage in such behavior.
nrvalleytime
Member
Laughed harder than I should have.
I did not get that he started it when I read it, if that is the case he is clearly out of line. I reread the OP and it isn't that clear who started it.
It's a dog and I'm not saying I'm going unscathed but I'm fairly certain I am an apex predator.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Only when you have tools at your disposal.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Tell you what- look up the closest K-9 training unit in your area, take a drive down there and tell one of the officers that. They'll be happy to put a bite suit on you and let one of their K-9's show you how horribly wrong you are. This isn't the collie from next door. These guys are trained their whole life to take people down and incapacitate them, and they're exceedingly good at it.
Hey man, the dog was scared for its life.
One of my best friends trains dogs and I have been in the suit. Its all about controlling your fear, of course I have never truly gone at it with a dog. I have no interest in hurting the dog or taking the damage that you obviously would take. In real life I've never been up against a trained dog, I have had a couple close encounters with stupid people and shitty dogs and once with a Pit that must of got out because it was too healthy to be a stray but in the end the dog backed down.
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