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What went wrong with Halo 2?
- Thread starter M1t7rAnd7r
- Start date
Mike Works
Member
Yes. For one, Earth's (city) structure lends for much more variety from a design standpoint, at least when it comes to Bungie. There are a few neat-o alien/halo environment moments, such as the gondola on delta halo, but for the most part, I much preferred Zanzibar to levels like The Library, and most of the Arbiter's stuff.Schafer said:
But more importantly, it not only breeds familiarity, which is quite instrumental to immersion in a videogame (or any other form of entertainment), but desparity. Are you going to care if a huge bomb/nuke goes off on Delta Halo, destroying a portion of it's temples or whatever? No. There's just a large inherent difference between ducking behind a cobblestone, alien constructed insert in a fight for a weapon, and hiding under a bridge in downtown egypt to shield yourself from an invading race of aliens.
It's just as damaging as it is "damage control". The average casual gamer might be totally satisfied with the single player game (except the ending), but then watch the DVD and feel like he got cheated out of a ton of content. I was particularly disappointed seeing the cinematics that got cut. The fight between Arbiter and the Brutes could have been totally awesome, and the cutscene that explained the Covenant mythology also would have been very illuminating.BuddyChrist83 said:
It would have been far more safe for them to have cut a documentary that portrayed everything as peachy. I didn't catch the "Making the Game" MTV special....did it touch on any of the compromises or negative aspects of development?
I was thinking that the other way to do sprints might be to hold "UP" on the d-pad rather than an extended press of the analog stick where people have to fight against some unseen timer. The sprint timer would probably fuck up multiplayer even more since your weapon might go down just as you approach somebody. The average player instinctually pushes the analog stick to MAX anyhow, so it would be a bit counter-intuitive. It would, however, be a nice balance if you couldn't immediately access sprint capabilities (having to wait for the timer)....giving immediate sprint access (with D-pad) might be a little too powerful.
I don't think it'd be that counter-intuitive. Maybe have it so you accumulate speed every second you move forward (and only forward) with the dash reaching top speed at around 5 seconds. Just food for though, it's certainly possible and workable. It'd be neat to hear from Bungie, in-depth, as to why this stuff got cut.border said:
Pimpbaa
Member
Mike Works said:
Alien worlds > earth. I really don't see how having it on earth would lead to more variety. If you use earth as setting, you are stuck designing it a certain way in order for it to seem like earth. When designing alien worlds, you can do whatever the hell you want. Last thing we need is halo looking like every other boring ass war fps out there.
Mike Works
Member
It game takes place in the year 2552. Exactly which level in Halo 2 (or 1 for that matter) would've been unrealistic to take place on Earth- save for the space station?Pimpbaa said:
Did Zanzibar turn the game into a boring ass war FPS?
The answer is very simple guys. Xbox2 needs a Halo for launch. And it must be a surprise. So they took out the epic parts of Halo2 and will add them to Halo3 in Xbox2. In the meantime they spread the rumour, that there is no new Halo under developement. In fact, they finish Halo3 for Xbox2 launch in December 2005. They don't want to hurt the Halo2 sales, so they keep this a top-secret. So don't be very surprised if you find out about new warthogs, epic earth-battles and all with next-gen graphics on Xbox2 on release day.
Maybe "counter-intuitive" is the wrong way to put it. Perhaps it just would have added too much complexity. In the middle of a heated Deathmatch, I don't want to have to worry about pushing the analog stick down "too much" so that I might loose weapon access for a moment. Let's face it, casual gamers work in extremes. They are either pushing the stick at full tilt or they are stopped completely. If there is a possible penalty for full tilt movement, then that introduces a problem.
You could perhaps solve this issue by introducing a sprint meter into the HUD, and the meter fills up to let you know when you are about the go into a full sprint and lose firing capability. But that only adds more complexity to a HUD where players are already forced to watch shield meter, ammo meter, and motion sensor. People want to be able to keep their eyes on the game and not have to constantly watch the HUD. I suspect that the health meter was removed only to make the game a little bit more simple, so a new meter would kind of go against that design ethic.
I'm not saying that the idea of sprinting is totally unworkable, but if the game's development was as rough as it appears to have been then the practical choice is obviously just to cut the feature rather than spend months figuring out how to make it comfortable, simple, and balanced. Sprinting would have helped Halo 1 much more because that game had a lot of levels where you were forced to traverse long distances on foot.....but in Halo 2 they generally give you enough vehicles so that it is relatively painless to travel over large barren areas pretty quickly.
If the Xbox had 4 triggers like the PS2, it could have been more simple. You could hit a trigger and get a 3-5 second sprint (like you get a time-limited cloak when you play as the Arbiter)......but activating a sprint through the D-pad or extended analog press adds too much complexity.
You could perhaps solve this issue by introducing a sprint meter into the HUD, and the meter fills up to let you know when you are about the go into a full sprint and lose firing capability. But that only adds more complexity to a HUD where players are already forced to watch shield meter, ammo meter, and motion sensor. People want to be able to keep their eyes on the game and not have to constantly watch the HUD. I suspect that the health meter was removed only to make the game a little bit more simple, so a new meter would kind of go against that design ethic.
I'm not saying that the idea of sprinting is totally unworkable, but if the game's development was as rough as it appears to have been then the practical choice is obviously just to cut the feature rather than spend months figuring out how to make it comfortable, simple, and balanced. Sprinting would have helped Halo 1 much more because that game had a lot of levels where you were forced to traverse long distances on foot.....but in Halo 2 they generally give you enough vehicles so that it is relatively painless to travel over large barren areas pretty quickly.
If the Xbox had 4 triggers like the PS2, it could have been more simple. You could hit a trigger and get a 3-5 second sprint (like you get a time-limited cloak when you play as the Arbiter)......but activating a sprint through the D-pad or extended analog press adds too much complexity.
Ehhh, after seeing the documentary I doubt that there is any way that Bungie can crank out a full sequel between now and next year's Xbox2 launch. I think tha the next game is being prepped to counter the 2006 launch of Playstation 3.
soundwave05
Member
I too would bet that Microsoft will have Halo 3 or Halo 2.5 ready to go for XBox 2's launch.
If Bungie does has something ready for the Xbox2 launch (doubtful), I bet that it will be something that just re-uses old content. Maybe HALO ULTIMATE EDITION, that features a new engine/models but is just a compilation of all the levels from the first two Halo games. Even without graphical upgrades, I'm sure most people would probably still pay for it.
Mike Works
Member
Man, I couldn't disagree with you more. Egypt was awesome, you went from moving through back alleys eliminating sniper and drone threats, to defending a key point from jackals, grunts, elites, drones, AND the big dudes, whatever they're called, then you got to get in a warthog (or ghost), zip through an underground highway system, eliminating blocks of threats, getting in fights with snipers and ghosts, using cluttered remains of empty vehicles as cover, only to then have to engange 3 - 4 alien tanks trying to get away while you fend off ghosts as you chase a giant fucking mechanical scarab tank.Pimpbaa said:
THEN you get to hit the surface, get in a tank of your own, go over some huge ass bridge, taken out a dozen ghosts, contending with more enemy tanks, and then facing a half dozen banshees, along with the ground troups. After that you continue on, facing beach fights on your ghost against dozens of other ghosts and snipers on the beach, continuing on to a more suburban area where you have to battle numerous tanks. You then move on foot through a darkly lit building, taking out ground troups, until the level finally climaxes when you have to jump on top of the moving tank/scarab and kill all of the enemy units on board.
See, that level had a fuckload of environmental variety, it just enhanced all of the aspects that made the beach and snow level in Halo 1 great.
Compare that to having to stand on a slowwwly descending elevator where flood enemies and flying laser shooting robots continually show up each level, only to have to walk through, yet again, continual looping architecture, fighting the same boring enemy time and time again. Ugh. I really can't see any level comparison, let alone someone preferring the latter.
={<SMOKE>}=
Member
i can't see what people are bitching about... i just finished a three hour session and this game rocks! i'm at the second arbiter level (on the new halo), so it seems like i'm near the end from what i've read on here.
how anyone could be disappointed with this game is beyond me. the combats fierce, it has a fuller story than the first, it's beatiful, and they fixed a lot of the problems its predecessor had. what's wrong?
how anyone could be disappointed with this game is beyond me. the combats fierce, it has a fuller story than the first, it's beatiful, and they fixed a lot of the problems its predecessor had. what's wrong?
MrAngryFace
Banned
tank bridge level = one of the best in gaming/
Project Midway
Member
MAF has good taste.MrAngryFace said:
MrAngryFace
Banned
YOURE a straight line!
IntestineBoy
Sasquatch of 1000 (hairy) colons
For me, the game would have been better if I was MasterChief at all times. The arbiter...I don't know if it was needed. I would have prefered MC.
Shogmaster
Member
IntestineBoy said:
Obviously, you have not developed the taste for cloak and backstab fun courtesy of Arbiter's Covenent armor.
IntestineBoy said:
I feel just the opposite. The game was infinitely more entertaining for me thanks to the Arbiter. In fact, I'd go as far as to say I prefer him to the Chief. Bungie did such a good job of making him a strong, well-defined character that MC just seems bland by comparison.
I just hope that in Halo 3, you'll have the option of tackling certain stages as the Arbiter or the Chief, maybe with a little plot branching thrown in. I think that the Arbiter's a great addition to the series for those of us who enjoy the more 'unreal', sci-fi aspects of the franchise, and giving people the ability to choose between them would cater nicely to both groups. It'd also open up some neat possibilities to have MC and the Arbiter running around as a team in co-op games, though I think that the Chief should get something a little cooler than a flashlight as his personal special ability.
Yes and no...
During cutscenes and occasionally during gameplay, certain light sources allow objects to cast shadows on themselves and other objects (self-shadowing on characters, for example).
They wanted stencil shadows on everything, though, but that was just their original vision and they soon realized that it was impossible. There is no way they could have pulled off a Doom 3 style renderer on XBOX with size of Halo 2's battles.
Repeating architecture was NOT heavily used until the Covenant levels played with Master Chief. All of the Arbitar levels and Delta Halo were almost entirely unique (just like the Earth levels).
I was thrilled that you left Earth, though. The levels on Delta Halo and the second Library (as well as the mission following it) were absolutely stunning. If you read any of the early Halo 2 articles, you'd also have realized that what occured in the final game is EXACTLY what Bungie said was going to occur. Early articles discussed the visiting of other Halos as well as the Covenant home world. Only later on did the game get slapped with that "save the earth" tag.
I can see why some people would have wanted to remain on Earth, though. Honestly, though, I found every level in the game to be utterly fantastic with the exception of the first covenant city area. THAT was the one place in the game that used a lot of repeating segments.
Hitler Stole My Potato
Banned
I finished the single player game again yesterday on heroic and come to the conlusion that I absolutely love this game. Sure, certain parts of it are better than others but Delta Halo, Mombassa, and a couple of the Arbiter's levels are all fantastic. The one level where the Arbiter battles against the Flood and Halo's containment machines to get to the index is a particular favorite of mine.
I do have one major complaint however and it's not the story's Soul Reaver-esque ending. The game supposedly has '15' levels but some of those "levels" are an absolute joke. In the very first one you watch the arbiter being tortured, calibrate your vision, check your shields, and attend a medal ceremony. That's a freakin' level? I can understand making it skipable but creating a whole level for it? Then in Mombassa it's all one huge map but it's broken into a couple of levels. The first time through, I thought I was on the second level but when I back and looked I was already sitting at level 4. It sounds like I'm nit-picking here, and maybe I am seeing how much fun I've had with the game, but there sure aren't '15' levels in Halo 2.
I do have one major complaint however and it's not the story's Soul Reaver-esque ending. The game supposedly has '15' levels but some of those "levels" are an absolute joke. In the very first one you watch the arbiter being tortured, calibrate your vision, check your shields, and attend a medal ceremony. That's a freakin' level? I can understand making it skipable but creating a whole level for it? Then in Mombassa it's all one huge map but it's broken into a couple of levels. The first time through, I thought I was on the second level but when I back and looked I was already sitting at level 4. It sounds like I'm nit-picking here, and maybe I am seeing how much fun I've had with the game, but there sure aren't '15' levels in Halo 2.
wipeout364
Member
Willco said:
I do not agree. I find the English speaking aliens a bit odd. As well I agree that the earth setting at the beginning was much more interesting then the second HALO. The earth setting felt like it was all on the line. Whereas HALO feels distant and way too much like the first game all over again. I think the diaspointing part is just how short the earth section was.
Don't get me wrong the game is awesome, I just enjoyed the earth levels a lot and felt they could have been a more substantial part of the game. I also find the english speaking aliens a little too odd. Master Chief >>>>>>Arbiter
If a demo was only meant to demonstrate a game's new capabilities, why put a bunch of potentially exciting story details in it? Why not just, uh... SHOW OFF THE GAME'S NEW FEATURES?
*Edit* - And just as a sidenote, I have gotten five phone calls at work asking me why you played as an alien in Halo 2, and why you couldn't just play as Master Chief. Some young whippersnapper even told me, quite candidly, that it was "gay."
*Edit* - And just as a sidenote, I have gotten five phone calls at work asking me why you played as an alien in Halo 2, and why you couldn't just play as Master Chief. Some young whippersnapper even told me, quite candidly, that it was "gay."
Beat it on Heroic the other night, got all pissy over the ending...now that I've had a little time to think, here's my 2 cents.
The good: Cinematics rocked. The development and addition of a well-fleshed out alien character, with differing play mechanics (cloak). Tons o' guns. The Cairo levels. The Earth levels. Huge three way fights with covenant civil war, flood, and humans. Focus on story in a action FPS admirable and still (overall) a success. Graphical upgrade was worth the pop-in.
The Bad: Ending felt like a rip-off; could've worked with a different approach (maybe) but as it is, it's a badly set up cliffhanger. Storyline left earth WAY too soon- defeating the scarab was great, but I wanted more, damnit... I wanted to fight covenant and defend the earth; instead I ended up fighting the flood on another halo far, far too quickly.
The good: Cinematics rocked. The development and addition of a well-fleshed out alien character, with differing play mechanics (cloak). Tons o' guns. The Cairo levels. The Earth levels. Huge three way fights with covenant civil war, flood, and humans. Focus on story in a action FPS admirable and still (overall) a success. Graphical upgrade was worth the pop-in.
The Bad: Ending felt like a rip-off; could've worked with a different approach (maybe) but as it is, it's a badly set up cliffhanger. Storyline left earth WAY too soon- defeating the scarab was great, but I wanted more, damnit... I wanted to fight covenant and defend the earth; instead I ended up fighting the flood on another halo far, far too quickly.
Can anyone explain:
Why the jumping is so floaty?
Why melee attacks seem vastly inferior to how they worked in the original? I've meleed people to the face three times after shooting them and they still didn't die, no overshields either. It also seems melee attacks to the back don't guarentee kills sometimes.
Why the radar display still remains even when you turn it off in multiplayer?
Overall I'm very satisfied with the single player campaign, legendary is a lot tougher than the original's. But multiplayer...meh.
Why the jumping is so floaty?
Why melee attacks seem vastly inferior to how they worked in the original? I've meleed people to the face three times after shooting them and they still didn't die, no overshields either. It also seems melee attacks to the back don't guarentee kills sometimes.
Why the radar display still remains even when you turn it off in multiplayer?
Overall I'm very satisfied with the single player campaign, legendary is a lot tougher than the original's. But multiplayer...meh.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Wow, some sites are trying to get edgy cred at the last minute. Losers.
Rocket Punch
Member
So....the earth battling is only the last level? I haven't played the game but the demo did lead me to believe that the earth conflict would the the main focus of the game. I'm sure it's a good game and all, but the insanity of the demo, the grittiness of it all, I guess they're saving more for later?. The fans will have to wait for Xenon for more.
Soul4ger said:
Which only goes to show that these 'young whippersnappers' of yours are fucking morons.
Most of the people I've heard bitching about having to play as the Arbiter are partial to 'realistic' shooters and don't really like science fiction much to begin with, I've noticed. They're the ones that say they can 'relate' to Master Chief because he's 'teh uber-Marine of teh FUTURE!!!!11!' and uses 'real guns and not that made-up shit' (the last delivered in tones of disgust). In short, 'mainstream' gamers with all the imagination of a pickled slug. As someone who likes to see a little actual creativity in his games, I really hope Bungie sticks to their guns and gives us more levels where we play as the Arbiter in the sequel (or at least gives us a choice between him and the Chief in some portions of the game), rather than paying attention to idiots like these.Halo has always struck me as more than a little anachronistic with its cybernetically enhanced super soldier as the central character, who has energy shields to protect him and has the internal storage/processing capacity to host a fully sentient AI that exhibits all the realistic nuances of a human female and yet the best weapons that humanity has to offer are just cosmetically snazzier versions of impact weapons of today.
Tellaerin said:Which only goes to show that these 'young whippersnappers' of yours are fucking morons.
Just for the record, I wasn't saying whether I like the Arbiter levels or not... Just saying what happened. And if "mainstream" gamers are going to react to this so negatively, as you assume, then Microsoft could have a seriously bad situation on its hands. I think it's more a minority that feels this way about the game, but it still did turn some people off. I don't think anyone would've been disappointed had they just focused on letting you play as Master Chief. But you can't always appeal to everyone.
I'm not actually trying to ARGUE anything in this post, for anyone who's looking for something... I'm just... Addressing the situation from every angle.
Mr. Lemming
Member
Hero said:
I don't know why jumping is changed, or why the melee system was changed... though the red lock on dash attack does help run people down from behind. I do like that change.
As for the radar being displayed, here is the word straight from David Candland, UI designer:
Hoo boy, do I ever. OK so your right hand weapon is in the upper right corner and the left hand weapon is in the left corner,(now you can finally see all your grenades in inventory). However, that really doesn't leave too many options for that shield meter. I initially put it below the radar for the very reason you mention. Unfortunately, this had the unfortunate effect of being so far in your periphery that people never were looking at it. Basically, people really only look at the upper 2/3 of their screen. We all hated it. After that, I must've tried 8 different iterations of the shield meter before settling on what is there now.
So- in multiplayer games with no motion tracker, I left a much more transparent, disabled motion sensor there. It was the best solution visually, and, in some ways an homage to Marathon.
http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive16.pl?read=486576
Only disappointment is the ending.
AI of enemies, teammates ect are excellent and really immersive you in the story. Arbitor was a nice twist, but there should have been more of the chief...it's obvious in the next game that Earth and the Covenant will forge an alliance, probably against Gravemind and his new intelligent Flood.
What hurts the game is simply the ending. It's obvious the game was supposed to dovetail - start on Earth and end on Earth...why it ended with a cliffhanger is anyones guess, but I think it's safe to say there's a certainly a big possiblity of Halo 3 debuting with the Xenon announcement. I mean...if you want to wow the crowds with your new console, what better way to do it then with your flagship franchise? Probably just the exisiting engine, with all graphics problems fixed, 1080dpi, 60 fps and chock 'o block with improved textures and lighting so it more resembles the cutscenes then in-game.
2 or 3 more levels set on Earth at the end and it's GOTY status would be enshrined in stone...as it is 'that ending' just hurts the title.
AI of enemies, teammates ect are excellent and really immersive you in the story. Arbitor was a nice twist, but there should have been more of the chief...it's obvious in the next game that Earth and the Covenant will forge an alliance, probably against Gravemind and his new intelligent Flood.
What hurts the game is simply the ending. It's obvious the game was supposed to dovetail - start on Earth and end on Earth...why it ended with a cliffhanger is anyones guess, but I think it's safe to say there's a certainly a big possiblity of Halo 3 debuting with the Xenon announcement. I mean...if you want to wow the crowds with your new console, what better way to do it then with your flagship franchise? Probably just the exisiting engine, with all graphics problems fixed, 1080dpi, 60 fps and chock 'o block with improved textures and lighting so it more resembles the cutscenes then in-game.
2 or 3 more levels set on Earth at the end and it's GOTY status would be enshrined in stone...as it is 'that ending' just hurts the title.
Escape Goat
Member
How many people enjoyed playing Raiden instead of Snake in MGS2? :lol