Guilty by silence.
Where does the police racial prejudice come from in America?
- Thread starter RandyBobandy
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Guilty by silence.
RandyBobandy
Banned
This thread is pretty eye opening. Read everything so far
It's absurd that it can get to this. I'm trying to understand, but I just don't
It's absurd that it can get to this. I'm trying to understand, but I just don't
freakzilla149
Banned
My mate who lived for some years in the States claims the training of police officers is sub par there compared to Finland, where police training is a 3 year bachelors degree. He said the US cops would be only allowed be security guards in Finland (who don't carry weapons here).
Though this is probably state dependent and I can't remember offhand which state he lived in.
Though this is probably state dependent and I can't remember offhand which state he lived in.
I distinctly remember reading that applicants to US police that score too high on an IQ test got denied. That kinda says it all right there.
So do you guys just think that most police are racist pricks? I'm genuinely curious here.
Or are you?
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Even aside from the momentum of underlying social narratives, and things like forced outward respect causing racism to be hidden in public (where it might be challenged and reformed) and shared among friends, I think people in many other countries have trouble understanding the massiveness of America and the cultural dissonance. The breadth of contradictions is overwhelming.
Really, you can easily grow up with experiences, messages, assumptions, social dynamics, opportunities, rules, expectations, philosophy/epistemology, etc that are completely different from other groups. Things break down in ethnicities, subcultures within those ethnicities, socioeconomic classes, religions, political parties, generation gaps, background nationalities, and present geographic locations. Meeting a new person, you just have no idea what they are like, and learning their experiences and how they think can be like learning a new language or how to type with your feet upside down underwater. It is a ton of work just for connecting properly to one person from a significantly different background from you.
Yet all the time we are trying to survive for ourselves, trying to run a democracy, trying to fix issues that affect all of us yet all in different ways. We can barely communicate properly, let alone understand one another, let alone agree on anything. It's like a constant noise, of social and political conflict and marketing and survival need and notions of progress and burdens of affect on the rest of the world. I've been to other countries and it's like they were "quiet" compared to this relentless noise.
It's really hard to explain properly, but if you live here long enough you'll come to recognize it, and it is easy to see how things get so out of hand, and how it feels so hopeless to correct things so blatantly visible. I don't blame people for freaking out in the streets when the ethical truth is plain as day but in challenging it every avenue is either filled with 100 voices from 100 different contradicting angles or simply bought out by pure power corruption.
It doesn't matter if they're actually racist themselves, but the majority of cops and their respective institutions helped foster a system of zero accountability and systemic abuse of minorities.
There are no repurcussions and investigations get obstructed or are a farce to begin with.
The whole "bad apples" argument falls apart when the alleged good apples aren't doing shit to solve the problem.
In America it's called 'The Knockout Game' and it's presented as proof that black people are waiting to leap out and attack you at random.
Elsewhere it's called 'Happy Slapping' and there's no racial element presented. Check the wiki entries for each and the difference in tone is jarring.
I think that's a huge factor, but I don't think it's the only factor.
LowerLevel
Member
Probably the same way that a good amount of people, not just police, can see a black man in a hoodie as a thug or if he's driving a BMW he's a dealer etc, etc...
Not saying all people, but they are definitely out there in this country. Can the view be warranted? Yes, but it isn't always the case obviously. Maybe i's best to shoot first and ask the questions later? /s
Vicetrailia
Banned
If policing here is hard, imagine what it must be like in Mexico.
Omegasquash
Member
Maybe if they came out in support of change and actually tried to meet with their communities, sat the fuck back and listened, committed to using non lethal methods for apprehension in every case possible, and sold their surplus/hand me down military gear for body cameras then yes, people might stop thinking of them as racists.
All they're doing now is cracking down and putting out shitty tweets that don't mean a goddamn thing.
……forgetit
Member
Okay, I get what you mean now, totally misunderstood about the media thing. I can definitely agree with that.
PhoenixDark
Banned
This isn't just a black issue when it comes to the lack of justice. Police are protected by the justice system, that's simply a fact. Regardless of the victim's color.
With respect to police violence and black people...I think it's a variety of things. From perceptions/stereotypes about the criminality of black people to dealing with the reality of high crime in majority black cities. In many cities you have black people distrusting police and police dealing with high rates of violent crime amongst black people. So you get a cycle of mistrust, made worse by policies that terrorize or harass black people regardless of whether they've committed a crime or not - profiling, being arrested/put through the system for petty issues, fines, etc; just google some of the shit that goes on in Ferguson daily.
Ultimately this is built on a system of institutional racism with respect to how the justice system works, who gets arrested and who doesn't. Especially with regards to drug offenses.
With respect to police violence and black people...I think it's a variety of things. From perceptions/stereotypes about the criminality of black people to dealing with the reality of high crime in majority black cities. In many cities you have black people distrusting police and police dealing with high rates of violent crime amongst black people. So you get a cycle of mistrust, made worse by policies that terrorize or harass black people regardless of whether they've committed a crime or not - profiling, being arrested/put through the system for petty issues, fines, etc; just google some of the shit that goes on in Ferguson daily.
Ultimately this is built on a system of institutional racism with respect to how the justice system works, who gets arrested and who doesn't. Especially with regards to drug offenses.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Where does it come from? The last 280+ years that people have been on this continent. People don't seem to understand, life and humans aren't like your Sega Genesis, SNES in when you hit reset everything is fresh and new. Sure the civil rights movement was 50 years ago. But that movement doesn't magically erase or equalize the past 200 years that preceded it. That's not how it works.
SliceSabre
Banned
In their view my being black automatically makes me a suspect in any crime so...yes, as a rule all cops are corrupt, racists pricks until proven otherwise.
Blacks are statistically more likely to engage in violent crime. Now there are reasons for this like perhaps poor people with nothing to lose are more likely to engage in violent crime and a large portion of black people happen to be poor. Eitherway it's measurable and probably appears in personal anecdotes to the point where there is quite a bit of generalization. This means people who look, talk and dress certain ways are likely going to be suspected if not outright slapped with things even if they are in the clear. That and minor offenses are just going to set off bias vindication. This is not right, but it's human trait to generalize. Certainly in some places there's not enough pushback or training for them to double check that they aren't doing this or even worse incentivised to make make quotas.
Also when you have bias like that each time you are vindicated you're probably going to do things like push for higher sentences and juries are going to feel less sympathetic and convict more (even more so in areas with more overt racism). This in turn can even boost statistics like the violent crime one above and you get a really bad cycle.
Also when you have bias like that each time you are vindicated you're probably going to do things like push for higher sentences and juries are going to feel less sympathetic and convict more (even more so in areas with more overt racism). This in turn can even boost statistics like the violent crime one above and you get a really bad cycle.
Mmhm.
"Police racial prejudice" is just part of larger societal prejudices; it isn't unique to (and I'm not even sure it's exceptional in) police. And even where individual police officers are not themselves racist, the incentives built into the system ensures that people simply acting in their own best interest will result in the sort of racial disparities we see. They don't need to be motivated by racism for racist outcomes to be the result.
Jacksinthe
Banned
This is a good post. Aside from obvious racial issues here in America I do believe that society being hell bent in being armed to the teeth with guns does lend weight to an itchy trigger finger for our police force. Anyone can be carrying so the slightest wrong move and, hell, even doing what the cops tell you to do can get you shot.
Its not the only reason but it is something to consider. A sad state of affairs. Then again we have seen clearly unarmed men and women killed in situations that the police, themselves, have escalated because they believe they are above the law.
Even something as simple as a seatbelt checkpoint can be a trick bag how cops try to lead you on to search your vehicle, etc when it should be "cool, you are wearing your seatbelt - have a nice day". We don't see that though. Many in the police force believe they can rule with impunity because the only color the justice system cares for is BLUE.
Aztechnology
Member
And that's the Rub. It comes down to poverty and lack of education. Why Black people are more prone to crime in general is due to those factors, not genetics or some other crap. As far as police go, I think it's also telling the kind of people who usually want to become police fall into a certain group of individuals. Typically conservative, white, either have been in the service or have wanted to be in the military. I believe structure, respect and power are what people who join the police typically desire.
gutter_trash
Banned
Currupt
Bobandy - It's always been the case in the US, you're seeing it in the news more because of what happened in Ferguson and because the news needs something to talk about 24/7. So anything that's related to Ferguson is going to get amplified. As far as why these things are happening, it's a system that targets blacks coupled with a militarized, aggressive police force, combined with a prison system that favors punishment over rehabilitation.
We have some minorities committing relatively more crime in Western Europe as well. We have cops that are racist as well, but they are held accountable when they fuck shit up badly.
Do you have police unions there?
I live in the Netherlands and yes we do. I don't know for sure for other countries.
There's a prevailing thought among law enforcement professionals that they put their life on the line every single day, every single moment that they're on the job. There's even a measure of pride and reverence associated with that. Is this a common thought among police officers in the UK? If not, imagine the psychological effect of that coupled with who they see most as criminals. Criminals that just a moment away from ending your life because of a concealed gun?
Banderdash
Member
I gotta tell you mate, I was born in Ireland... and I left as a child so I never experienced it. I've got relatives who still live over there and my parents and grandparents have told me first had stories of being stopped, searched, and beaten by police in Ireland.
In their case it wasn't about race... it was about being Catholics.
Don't imagine it doesn't exist because it doesn't happen to you.
pokeystaples
Banned
Black people have been talking about this for decades. People are just seeing it more because of the 24/7 news cycle, and I am thankful as hell. We're not crazy. We're not pulling the race card constantly. This is happening at an alarming rate and has been happening since before I walked this earth. And fucking finally mainstream is noticing.
This is my aunt's case from the 80's. and it was not the only case that year or the year after or the year after. My great grandfather was tarred and feathered by a police officer in Greenville, MS. It's not new and while it DOES happen to non POC, but the rate at which it happens to brown people is far higher.
This is my aunt's case from the 80's. and it was not the only case that year or the year after or the year after. My great grandfather was tarred and feathered by a police officer in Greenville, MS. It's not new and while it DOES happen to non POC, but the rate at which it happens to brown people is far higher.
soundahfekz
Member
Yeah it's crazy that my parents, as children, saw the "no coloreds allowed/whites only" signs. This isn't some fantastical, long ago time.
True but I have always felt that's because America loves justice to the point that massive retaliation is considered okay as long as you feel you are right.
Cops look after their own and unions are a big part of that. Maybe I'm crazy and ignorant, but if the Netherlands had our gun culture and that created the same cloud of fear that exists over here, then you'd have a lot more of the gutless justice system as it is over here. If everyone in America was magically not racist anymore, we would still have the justice system being used by cops to their advantage. Race is probably the biggest factor in all of this, but the issue is much more complex than that.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
America has a long history of one race/class dominating another.
Hell it basically exists because they were able to steal away the land from the natives by force or by cheating them, and we owe much of our early development to slavery. When minorities finally gain power, start a war on drugs or start limiting their voting rights. Low-class and middle-class protesting corporate greed? Defend the "job creators." Latin American kids crossing the border to escape insane levels of gang-related violence? Send them back. Brown people want to have a mosque in the city so they can gather for prayer? Hell no, they're probably terrorists.
We could move past these things but the media and local governments will likely never get over their racial biases. It starts from the ground up and most people with any sort of power apparently don't feel the need to change their perspectives.
Hell it basically exists because they were able to steal away the land from the natives by force or by cheating them, and we owe much of our early development to slavery. When minorities finally gain power, start a war on drugs or start limiting their voting rights. Low-class and middle-class protesting corporate greed? Defend the "job creators." Latin American kids crossing the border to escape insane levels of gang-related violence? Send them back. Brown people want to have a mosque in the city so they can gather for prayer? Hell no, they're probably terrorists.
We could move past these things but the media and local governments will likely never get over their racial biases. It starts from the ground up and most people with any sort of power apparently don't feel the need to change their perspectives.
Then instead of people rioting about how unjust the system is shouldn't they instead focus on coming up with solutions for it?
How do you fix this kind of problem?
You should try everything you can before using lethal force. That's a given.
However in cases such as what happened in Ferguson what is the guy supposed to do? He is a lone cop without back up, facing a 6' 3" dude that (according to reports) was rushing him. If a person doesn't listen to any warnings what is supposed to be done? Is the "victim" not responsible for their own actions as well?
I'm not denying that there is racism. However I feel that it is blown out of proportion.
Just to clarify I mean the amount of racism is blown up. Racism itself is unbelievably stupid and it's sickening that it still exists.
I think the police should do their best to be a part of the community yes. However you're blaming the individuals of a system for the actions of a system. Having cameras on every officer should be a standard I agree. But tazers don't always work and a cop without back up in a serious situation will be in major trouble. Police training needs to be more extensive and bar for entry more "strict" across the board.
Well what does a cop need to do to prove they're not racist then? And what about cops who are black? I've known a lot of cops (hell some of my family have been cops) and most of them have been perfectly good people. Assuming they're all just out to get you only perpetuates the problem and grows distrust.
Fraternities?
A few are nasty but for the most part thy're fairly neutral: hell I know of a few that have a positive impact.
oh there are issues with immigrants in Europe being disenfranchised as well. Europe is also way more likely to pass crazy legislation. Flare ups might be less but let's pretend it doesn't exist. London and Paris riots come to mind...
captainnapalm
Member
WIth cops in America, it seems to be a combination of being trigger happy plus being quite fearful and skittish when dealing with minorities. Not a good combination.
I doubts it's the unions fault, since unions are everywhere and are critical for public servants to get decent compensation. Unions defending bad cops is a symptom not the cause.
Gun culture is indeed a pretty big problem, but if you have no intention to deal with the gun problem, you are going to have to hold your cops to a higher standard even if you understand that some cops only fucked up because of pressure.
Well what is supposed to be done about the past?
The newer generations are not responsible for the actions of past generations. Things have only been getting progressively better. So what is left to be done aside from continuing to better ourselves? An apology? From who?
Not sure if this is what you were implying so correct me if I'm wrong.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Justice and laws that disenfranchise large swaths of minorities go hand in hand.
Zoning laws woefully affect people who lives in disadvantaged neighborhoods. So do the disproportionate drug laws that have affected the minority communities moreso than WASP communities, at least in NYC.
But at the same time, people need to realize that seeing a police officer in every corner is not safety, it is surveillance. Areas that are normally safe do not require police officers driving around in patrol cars armed with military kits and body cameras, they require community policing and a community that does not try to help its residents is just as complicit as the cops that are sent to protect and serve.
I have a very big problem with police patrolmen outfitted with military surplus gear. The US is not so dangerous as to require M4's and military range practice for a beat.
Hari Seldon
Member
I don't necessarily believe that the cops are doing this because of racism. They are doing it because there is zero accountability, urban police departments actively recruit thugs and bullies, the actual good cops will likely get promoted to more desirable positions that do not involve uniform street work, the good cops will stick with easy suburban jobs with low risk to life and limb, black people are overwhelmingly economically disadvantaged and therefore overwhelmingly more likely to have to deal with a cop. All of those reasons imo.
Yeah, I'm definitely not trying to say we need to get rid of unions. Just like what you said, their reach and actions are symptoms of some very ugly parts of American culture. I'm mostly saying that what's created this environment can't be fixed just by race relations, but also by the gun culture and who knows whatever bureaucratic nuance that I'm frankly too ignorant of to elucidate.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
You're asking the wrong question, racist police only persist as a symptom of a racist populace that knowingly or apathetically votes in racist policy makers. If the average American were outraged as much as the people protesting, the police wouldn't be able to get away with what they are getting away with.
If you believe that the general population, politicians, and police are made up of a small amount of racists, a large amount of moderates, and a small amount of progressives, the American moderate has failed repeatedly to reign in the will of the American racist. At every level, he/she has turned either a cold shoulder to the plight of the downtrodden, or given a blind eye to the abuses of the exploiters in their midst.
Jeff Roorda is a member of the Missouri House of Representatives who fancies himself a Senator one day, and is supported my Missouri's own governor. Given his well-documented history of covering up police corruption and openly advocating the obfuscation of police violence records, one can surmise that the people of Missouri voting for him either a) approve of police violence, b) are completely ignorant of his policies and vote for him anyway, or c) are too apathetic to vote at all.
So we're left with the very obvious conclusions that with regards to police violence against minorities, Americans either simply don't give a shit or have a majority who approve that it's the best course. The actions of police will only continue to reflect the will of the populace. As someone pointed out yesterday, African Americans were technically given the right to vote in the 1860s, but weren't really allowed to vote freely until the mid 1970's across the country because local patches of the population didn't want them to.
It's silly to try and boil it down to a single reason, like guns, or drugs, or poverty. Racism and disproportionate justice existed in America long before rap music and cornrows and baggy pants and affirmative action were a thing. There was never a time where America was NOT racist, where suddenly an explosion of blacks on the scene made them racist.
If you believe that the general population, politicians, and police are made up of a small amount of racists, a large amount of moderates, and a small amount of progressives, the American moderate has failed repeatedly to reign in the will of the American racist. At every level, he/she has turned either a cold shoulder to the plight of the downtrodden, or given a blind eye to the abuses of the exploiters in their midst.
Jeff Roorda is a member of the Missouri House of Representatives who fancies himself a Senator one day, and is supported my Missouri's own governor. Given his well-documented history of covering up police corruption and openly advocating the obfuscation of police violence records, one can surmise that the people of Missouri voting for him either a) approve of police violence, b) are completely ignorant of his policies and vote for him anyway, or c) are too apathetic to vote at all.
So we're left with the very obvious conclusions that with regards to police violence against minorities, Americans either simply don't give a shit or have a majority who approve that it's the best course. The actions of police will only continue to reflect the will of the populace. As someone pointed out yesterday, African Americans were technically given the right to vote in the 1860s, but weren't really allowed to vote freely until the mid 1970's across the country because local patches of the population didn't want them to.
It's silly to try and boil it down to a single reason, like guns, or drugs, or poverty. Racism and disproportionate justice existed in America long before rap music and cornrows and baggy pants and affirmative action were a thing. There was never a time where America was NOT racist, where suddenly an explosion of blacks on the scene made them racist.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I don't imply, I state. I never stated anything about wanting an apology. I'm explaining to those who somehow missed all of high school (If you're American) where police/American racial prejudice "comes from" as in it was always here. The country was literally build on it and it's ingrained into American life/culture.
The idea that oh civil rights happened 50 years ago, now everything is equal! Is the delusion of idiots who feign intelligence (You know them as republicans). That's not how it works/worked/will ever work. Much like you can't fix 20 years of political fuckery in 8, you can't undo 280+ years of oppression/marginalization/fucketry in 50 years. It'll take just as long to undo it as it did to fuck it all up. Doubly so when you realize that during that entire time, black people in the US entered the race 50 laps behind white people. It has always been an utterly dumb, romanticized notion that 50 years of progress totes makes up for 250+ years of fuckery and it's a notion that people of privileged position tout like a platinum trumpet when they feel uncomfortable or "tried" about talking about race in the US.
And it's not like the day those Civil Rights laws were passed everything was peachy afterwards. It's not like one day before the laws were passed we had colored signs, lynchings, beatings, waterhosing, rape, murder, mass discrimination. Then the day after said laws were passed, we all held hands and sang kumba-fucking-ya and shit and everyone who was racist suddenly weren't and no longer acted in a way to continue to marginalize blacks.
Or to take it a step back further. It's not like the day after slavery was abolished, it was all peaches and roses and blacks and whites were walking down the street with each other holding hands, singing "good morning" and clicking their heels, sitting in classrooms with each other getting the same quality education as one another, working the same jobs for the same pay.
People tend to forget that slaves weren't allowed to read/be taught how to read and write nor did they earn wages. So when slavery ended...what do people think happened? Blacks threw up their caps and went out and bought land and boom equality? That the south was like "well we lost, let's build them schools and help them be equal to us!"
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