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[Socreges]

I saw it yesterday. Found it to be very direct, amusing, sad, and entertaining. Yet I am skeptical.

Moore presents a lot of facts in such a way as to insinuate conspiracies. Such as all the links between Bush and the Saudis.

Where is this "fiction"? Lies? Outright manipulations?

I understand that the movie just came out, but considering so many people are so quick to write the movie off, I'd like to know why exactly.

 

[Seth C]

The main problem is that it's one side of a story, presented with an extreme bias, in order to support an agenda. Doesn't make it less true, just makes it less trustworthy.

 

[Socreges]

The main problem is that it's one side of a story, presented with an extreme bias, in order to support an agenda. Doesn't make it less true, just makes it less trustworthy.

Absolutely. During the entire film I kept that in mind.

But from that, I am requesting more specifics. Such as, if it is not trustworthy, then surely we can identify what can't be trusted.

 

[SyNapSe]

I haven't seen it, but I was told many of his sources are other authors.. so, I'm not exactly sure what the hell that means, but this was from a pretty right wing type... I guess we have to assume author/writers aren't trustworthy from that statement.

 

[Alcibiades]

supposedly he cut out the response of one congressman (as Moore was asking if they want to sign up children to go to war) where the congressman responded gracefully and mentioned they had looked into it and even a nephew of his was being deployed, but Moore left that out, of course it wouldn't fit with his point of view of congresspeople that voted for war...

It's not so much as "making stuff up" as it is leaving out important details and taking stuff out of context (like the fact that it wasn't Bush directly who approved the Saudi/bin-Laden families return to Saudi Arabia, but Richard Clarke, who stated the background checks went through)...

I mean, I can say on camera "School sucks whenever someone calls in prank bomb threads because instruction time suffers"

now if you take then and only put up me saying "School sucks", obviously there that's not very accurate representation of the situation, but it might not serve your agenda...

For example, Moore put up footage of Bush referring to the terrorists in the Palestianian territories, but Moore didn't clarify and implied otherwise...

 

[mjq jazz bar]

What people are calling false is what should actually be considered misleading.

 

[Alcibiades]

What people are calling false is what should actually be considered misleading.

yeah, I agree...

 

[Malakhov]

Also I have seen a clip that shows when Bush first learned about the attacks on the WTC and Moore claims it took Bush like 10 minutes or so before he reacted but I remember seeing that footage after 9/11 and it didn't appear that long, a journalist came up with it I think and then Bush stood up and then answered.

 

[RedDwarf]

Also I have seen a clip that shows when Bush first learned about the attacks on the WTC and Moore claims it took Bush like 10 minutes or so before he reacted but I remember seeing that footage after 9/11 and it didn't appear that long, a journalist came up with it I think and then Bush stood up and then answered.

It was 7 or so minutes and that actually happened.

 

[sc0la]

Also I have seen a clip that shows when Bush first learned about the attacks on the WTC and Moore claims it took Bush like 10 minutes or so before he reacted but I remember seeing that footage after 9/11 and it didn't appear that long, a journalist came up with it I think and then Bush stood up and then answered.

Supposedly it was seven minutes. That would be something that would be very foolish to mistreat as just about anyone who wanted to go back and review the footage could do so. A member of his staff came up delivered the information and he sat there, then picked up a book and read it to himself while the school children sang their ABCs or something to that effect for several minutes.

I don't have an opinion on why he did that, but I do believe he sat there for that length of time. Isn't the event contained in the 9/11 report anyways?

 

[Malakhov]

Even if true why in hell is that supposed to be bad, how should he of reacted? Get up there and leave these kids and create a panic or something? I think they did the right thing in waiting until a journalist broke the story.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Even if true why in hell is that supposed to be bad, how should he of reacted? Get up there and leave these kids and create a panic or something? I think they did the right thing in waiting until a journalist broke the story.

Probably could have said I need to cut this event short.

 

[human5892]

Even if true why in hell is that supposed to be bad, how should he of reacted? Get up there and leave these kids and create a panic or something?

"Our country was just attacked! But wait...I don't want to panic these kids! Think I'll just lay here for a while. Hell, there's a Vice President too, isn't there?"

Come on. If you're the commander-in-chief of the god damned country, you get your ass into gear the second you hear that your nation is being attacked. No questions asked.

IMO, that was one of the more disturbing parts of Fahrenheit 911...just to see Bush there, staring at a children's book, while NYC was in chaos.

 

[mjq jazz bar]

He says to the class, "I'm sorry. Something has come up."

That's all.

 

[Killthee]

Here's a link with the 5 minute video and photo stills.

 

[Malakhov]

I think he reacted properly, he was probably almost as shocked as anyone else anyways and you can see on his face that he was seriously thinking and the kids in front of him nor the book in his hands even existed.

 

[sc0la]

Even if true why in hell is that supposed to be bad, how should he of reacted? Get up there and leave these kids and create a panic or something? I think they did the right thing in waiting until a journalist broke the story.

Even if true why in hell is that supposed to be good, how should he of reacted? Get up there and leave these kids, calmly informing the class that he had something important to attend to. I think they did the wrong thing in waiting until a journalist broke the story.

Like I said I don't really have firm opinion on why he did that, only Bush himself realy knows, perhaps a family confidant, but thats it. Each explanation "he was trying to project an aura of calmness and stability" or "he just didn't know wtf to do, so he picked up a childrens book and read it to himself," and others, has their own merit.

But thats for you to decide, and while Moore presents his opinion on the events you certainly don't have to agree with him, but the event did take place. And it did look disconcerning to me.

 

[Socreges]

supposedly he cut out the response of one congressman (as Moore was asking if they want to sign up children to go to war) where the congressman responded gracefully and mentioned they had looked into it and even a nephew of his was being deployed, but Moore left that out, of course it wouldn't fit with his point of view of congresspeople that voted for war...

Supposedly? Source? If true, that's shit I wish Moore didn't bother with. He always has such a strong case, but poisons it with unnecessary manipulation.

That's the type of example I'm asking for, btw.

It's not so much as "making stuff up" as it is leaving out important details and taking stuff out of context (like the fact that it wasn't Bush directly who approved the Saudi/bin-Laden families return to Saudi Arabia, but Richard Clarke, who stated the background checks went through)...

He never stated who exactly let the Saudis out. He didn't need to. The fact remained that it was largely a choice by the administration. Not as if Bush would have objected.

Even if true why in hell is that supposed to be bad, how should he of reacted? Get up there and leave these kids and create a panic or something? I think they did the right thing in waiting until a journalist broke the story.

We've done this debate to death, but why not one more time for you.

He went into the classroom having heard of the first attack. At that point they didn't know what exactly had happened. Then you see his advisor inform him that a second plane had hit [you can see that he inferred from that they were under attack]. Under those circumstances, I think it would be appropriate and entirely necessary for Bush to excuse himself.

 

[Santo]

Bush sitting in that classroom for seven minutes is not only ridiculous, but irresponsible. He IS the commander in chief of the country he WAS informed the "nation is under attack".... when you're the president of a country and your staff tells you that the country is quote unquote under attack, you don't fucking sit in a classroom reading a childrens book to yourself, you leave immediately. IMO, sercet service shoulda grabbed his ass and thrown him in the limo the second they heard that the nation was under attack, especially considering they KNEW a plane had crashed into the WTC minutes previous... it's not hard to connect one and two.

anybody that thinks the president did the right thing by sitting there, if not to "panic a classroom of 1st graders", please justify why. it irks me that anybody on this forum, or this country in general approves of such action.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I mean is there anything he could have done at that moment? No, it's irresponsible to think that he could have. However, he could have excuesed himself, at that time and started getting situational reports. Is there a VP? Yes, but the Pres was not incapacitated (well not physically incapacitated) and is/was still in charge he should have been making decisions and giving orders. One of the problems as 9/11 commision showed is that no one was quite sure who was in charge and who had the authority. That's not to say that those seven minutes would have changed a lot but, it would have been better for him to give the authority to make certian actions and remove the possibility of doubt.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Supposedly? Source? If true, that's shit I wish Moore didn't bother with. He always has such a strong case, but poisons it with unnecessary manipulation.

I heard it on NPR a few weeks back. Check there.

 

[human5892]

Supposedly? Source?

In my experience, that's about as far as you're going to get with people attempting to refute this movie. Either that, or a quote from a member of the Bush administration.

Fahrenheit 911 is receiving a lot of scrutiny from many people who don't want it to be true, and certainly I'm sure there is a technical error or two, as well as instances where Moore lets his own convictions and opinions lead the way just a little too much (the pre-attack footage of Baghdad, for example, is not at all representative of what the entire city was like before the bombs hit). But overall, I think there is no refuting just the raw footage in the movie, and the instance of Bush in the classroom is a great example of that.

 

[Santo]

I mean is there anything he could have done at that moment? No, it's irresponsible to think that he could have. However, he could have excuesed himself, at that time and started getting situational reports. Is there a VP? Yes, but the Pres was not incapacitated (well not physically incapacitated) and is/was still in charge he should have been making decisions and giving orders. One of the problems as 9/11 commision showed is that no one was quite sure who was in charge and who had the authority. That's not to say that those seven minutes would have changed a lot but, it would have been better for him to give the authority to make certian actions and remove the possibility of doubt.

He's in charge. He should've left. There's no excuse for not leaving.... maybe he could've saved the pentagon? those minutes were a time of chaos and order and direction was absolutely needed. there was SO much going on in the country that every second was incredibly valuable. those seven minutes could easily account for the president to be rushed to air force one, get briefed, and make split second decisions that would affect the entire world. yet, he sat in a classroom and read a book to himself.

 

[Socreges]

Santo, read his post again. You actually agree with Slick.

(I'll play moderator!)

I heard it on NPR a few weeks back. Check there.

NPR?

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

He's in charge. He should've left. There's no excuse for not leaving.... maybe he could've saved the pentagon? those minutes were a time of chaos and order and direction was absolutely needed. there was SO much going on in the country that every second was incredibly valuable. those seven minutes could easily account for the president to be rushed to air force one, get briefed, and make split second decisions that would affect the entire world. yet, he sat in a classroom and read a book to himself.

I agree with you. That he should have left, I'm saying I don't know if those 7 minutes would have changed anything.

 

[sc0la]

He IS the commander in chief of the country

Technically he is the President of the country, and the "Commander in Cheif" of the armed forces (which is actually a more modern convention that hasn't been present throughout our nation's history) FYI.

I would have a serious problem if Moore had received an overwhelming response of "yes" from the senators but only left in the two "no"s. I have no clue how many people he talked to that day.

 

[demon]

He's in charge. He should've left. There's no excuse for not leaving.... maybe he could've saved the pentagon? those minutes were a time of chaos and order and direction was absolutely needed. there was SO much going on in the country that every second was incredibly valuable. those seven minutes could easily account for the president to be rushed to air force one, get briefed, and make split second decisions that would affect the entire world. yet, he sat in a classroom and read a book to himself.

Oh please. There's nothing he could have done. How the fuck could he have saved the Pentagon? Run to a phone booth, change into his superhero outfit and stop the third plane? Did he even know the nature of the attacks at the time? All I ever hear was that he was told "we're under attacK" or something. If there was more he could have known, he would have been told it.

 

[shoplifter]

NPR?

Oh dear...

(assuming you're american)

 

[FnordChan]

Did he even know the nature of the attacks at the time? All I ever hear was that he was told "we're under attacK" or something. If there was more he could have known, he would have been told it.

Alternately, his staff assumed that, when told the country was under attack, Bush would have done more than just sit there. One might reasonably assume that when you tell the President the coutnry is under attack that he'd want to go find out some more information himself rather than wait for you to pass notes. I'm envisioning staffers milling in the hall outside the classroom muttering "What in the fuck is he waiting for?" to each other.

FnordChan

 

[sc0la]

NPR?

 

[Santo]

Oh please. There's nothing he could have done. How the fuck could he have saved the Pentagon? Run to a phone booth, change into his superhero outfit and stop the third plane? Did he even know the nature of the attacks at the time? All I ever hear was that he was told "we're under attacK" or something. If there was more he could have known, he would have been told it.

Ummm... let's see, in August he received reports saying "Bin Laden to Attack Inside United States" before he enters classroom he is informed "first plane crashes into WTC" his advisor comes over "nation under attack".... now, any reasonably intelligent person can figure out what is going on and I especially hope the wise-heads in washington and the CIA could quickly relate the attacks. So, in this modern world of technology, we do have things like cell phones, computers, and i'm sure the government has other highly advanced technology that would allow for the president to make a couple decisions. like, if the planes arent grounded and are headed towards the white house, or, i dont know, the pentagon, perhaps we should maybe shoot them down.

 

[FnordChan]

NPR?

National Public Radio.

FnordChan

 

[Socreges]

Oh dear...

(assuming you're american)

Just about, but no.

I've never heard of National Public Radio.

 

[Santo]

Just about, but no.

I've never heard of National Public Radio.

Maybe you need to spend some time away from GAF.

 

[Bregor]

National Public Radio is the highest quality news source in America, IMO. Practically no sensationalism or bias.

 

[Socreges]

Maybe you need to spend some time away from GAF.

That goes without saying, but I don't understand why that would then make NPR more affluent. We just don't hear about it in Canada.

 

[maharg]

Why exactly would anyone panic if the president excused himself?

NPR is more or less the American CBC Radio.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

Oh please. There's nothing he could have done. How the fuck could he have saved the Pentagon? Run to a phone booth, change into his superhero outfit and stop the third plane? Did he even know the nature of the attacks at the time? All I ever hear was that he was told "we're under attacK" or something. If there was more he could have known, he would have been told it.

Heh. That's pretty much what I envision every time somebody brings up the whole "Bush shouldn't have just sat there" argument about 9/11. It's like they expected him to immediately leap to his feet, rip his shirt open (thus exposing his "Super-Bush" costume, complete with fake muscles and rubber nipples), vault to the nearest open window and, with a heartfelt wave to the kiddies, fly off to New York or Washington or Afghanistan to battle the forces of evil, returning to the White House at sunset with Osama Bin Laden tucked under his arm.

Then he'd get a kiss on the cheek from Laura, and pose on the White House lawn for photographs that'd make the cover of every major newspaper in the country the following morning, with the headline "BUSH SOCKS OSAMA!"

 

[Ferrio]

Whether he could actually do something or not isn't the problem. The problem is that he didn't even TRY.

 

[maharg]

How, exactly, are we supposed to know what he would have done had he spent those seven minutes more productively? Seems to me, though, that the point is they could have been spent more productively, just by doing *anything*.

 

[Socreges]

Heh. That's pretty much what I envision every time somebody brings up the whole "Bush shouldn't have just sat there" argument about 9/11. It's like they expected him to immediately leap to his feet, rip his shirt open (thus exposing his "Super-Bush" costume, complete with fake muscles and rubber nipples), vault to the nearest open window and, with a heartfelt wave to the kiddies, fly off to New York or Washington or Afghanistan to battle the forces of evil, returning to the White House at sunset with Osama Bin Laden tucked under his arm.

Then he'd get a kiss on the cheek from Laura, and pose on the White House lawn for photographs that'd make the cover of every major newspaper in the country the following morning, with the headline "BUSH SOCKS OSAMA!"

Strawman is an indication of stupidity. Mind you, I am definitely not saying you are stupid. Merely implying it. *cough*

 

[Sp3eD]

Actually I thought I remember hearing reports from military people donig interviews shortly after 9/11 that if given the command, they can have F-15's in the air in route to locations within 5-10 minutes. Communication and varification of commands are vital for a person of his position in our country. Every little bit counts.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

Actually I thought I remember hearing reports from military people donig interviews shortly after 9/11 that if given the command, they can have F-15's in the air in route to locations within 5-10 minutes. Communication and varification of commands are vital for a person of his position in our country. Every little bit counts.

So 5-10 minutes of prep time (which I have doubts about, but whatever), XX minutes flight time to target (which at this point may or may not be definitively identified), and... ?? minutes for the nation's leaders to weigh options and make the grave decision to authorize shooting down a plane full of civilians. Plus delays as orders are relayed through the chain of command, conferences between command authorities, etc. etc. Is that about right?

 

[Xenon]

Do they have confirmation on what exactly was said to Bush? [edit due to lazyness] Were they waiting on more information? Maybe the guy told them they would have more info in a few minutes. The guy had told them what they knew which probably wasn't that much.


Seems to me that this is some serious reaching by those who already have strong feelings about Bush. Reminds me how the Republicans were with Clinton. Man that dude really pissed them off for some reason.

I don't have to see this film to know that its more about projecting what MM believes than showing the actual truth. He lost all his credit with me after manipulating the timeline with the NRA footage to get his point across. It just shows how far he will go to sell his version of the events. Rush does the same thing only he uses statistics while MM relies on emotional manipulation. Both play to their audience who happily lap it up.

 

[Socreges]

Do they have confirmation on what exactly was said to Bush? Was this after the second plane crashed or the first? Were they waiting on more information? IRC there was a lot of confusion in the beginning.

The second plane. Given the time, it couldn't have been anything else.

I don't have to see this film to know that its more about projecting what MM believes than showing the actual truth.

Yes, you do. If it was simply "what he believes", then I'd have gotten an actual response to my question aside from "supposedly he cut out a positive response from one congressman".

Must be hard to project yourself as so objective with that avatar, btw.

 

[Santo]

Do they have confirmation on what exactly was said to Bush? [edit due to lazyness] Were they waiting on more information? Maybe the guy told them they would have more info in a few minutes. The guy had told them what they knew which probably wasn't that much.


Seems to me that this is some serious reaching by those who already have strong feelings about Bush. Reminds me how the Republicans were with Clinton. Man that dude really pissed them off for some reason.

I don't have to see this film to know that its more about projecting what MM believes than showing the actual truth. He lost all his credit with me after manipulating the timeline with the NRA footage to get his point across. It just shows how far he will go to sell his version of the events. Rush does the same thing only he uses statistics while MM relies on emotional manipulation. Both play to their audience who happily lap it up.

IGNORANCE IS BLISS. But then again, you're a moron anyway.

 

[Suikoguy]

The way I thought of it, much like his books.
If even a small portion of the information is 100% correct, then its still VERY sad.

 

[Xenon]

Haha yeah I should change that huh.... But it really has nothing to do with this.

and no I don't. I just dont have the free time. I get all the bush hate I can ever want right here on GAFs.

 

[Xenon]

IGNORANCE IS BLISS. But then again, you're a moron anyway.

Then you must be extremely happy person. Good for you!

 

[human5892]

I don't have to see this film to know that its more about projecting what MM believes than showing the actual truth.

Okay, thanks for playing. Remember for next time that it might be a good idea to see the movie before you claim to know its level of bias.