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Where is Fahrenheit 9/11 wrong?
- Thread starter Socreges
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Spectral Glider
Member
xsarien said:
Keep using the "bomb everything" attack, it really does make you look so in vogue.
Spectral Glider
Member
The point was that after such an event, all terrorist threats should have been addressed seriously with knowledge openly shared instead of the continued pussy-footing by the FBI and CIA we did get.....and presidents who didn't seem too concerned about any of it. But I forgot, you can't enter this thread unless there's a political agenda stick in your ass. It could have been Washington, FDR or Abe Lincoln sitting there in that chair for 7 damn minutes and I still wouldn't think any different.
mjq jazz bar
Banned
The only reason Moore supports Kerry is because he sees him as the only way to get Bush out of the office.Fusebox said:
If Kerry does win, don't be surprised to see many critical things said about Kerry by Moore.
Cyan said:
And it's not even a question of what he might have done, it's an issue, largely, of principle. You're told the country's under attack, what's your first reaction? Get to battlestations, so to speak? Well, if you're Bush, it's remain where you are, look terribly confused, leaf through a book, and wait for your aides to prod you with the next instruction from the Quickstart guide at the beginning of "Being President For Dummies."
Seriously, if those of you even hinting at this being a defensible response, go see Fahrenheit 9/11. The footage is there, plain as day. Bush's reaction, or lack thereof, to wide shots of him kind of squirming around a little.
mjq jazz bar said:
I'd love to see Kerry win. It is so easy to sit back and disagree with everything the Govt. does and just say 'no' to everything.
Lets see him squirm when he's the one who has to appear strong in front of the nation, he cant just pull the troops out, wipe his hands and reset the situation can he?
Has he even hinted at his policies to change the Iraq situation?
xsarien said:
OMG he should've jumped up in the air and started holding the children in front of him as a shield.
This is what I'm talking about, you pause anywhere in your favourite movie and chances are you'll catch an actor with a stupid expression - Moore thinks if he can get enough pics of the president looking dumb then people will think the president is dumb. That's the kind of crap that undermines anything valid he might have had to say about the state of things.
Fusebox said:
This is a horribly, horribly perverse way to look at the elections process.
You would rather see the president you DISLIKE WIN the election so you can watch him FUCK THINGS UP?!?!? Your lust for democratic humiliation outweighs the need for your political beliefs to stay intact? Are you watching this entire thing through a television screen? Is this Survivor to you?
Why not spend election day watching soap operas, instead of making the soap opera election day.
chipopo, I dunno, I live in Australia mate. 
fart, nice comeback to the fact that Moore relies heavily on stupid photos of the president which are very easy to get of anybody.
As for my posts, all I've seen you talk about in this thread is goats and dave grohl, get over yourself.
fart, nice comeback to the fact that Moore relies heavily on stupid photos of the president which are very easy to get of anybody.
As for my posts, all I've seen you talk about in this thread is goats and dave grohl, get over yourself.
samus4ever
Banned
i've been out of town for a few days, but I have to say a few things about this movie. (i have not seen yet).
the part where bush was playing golf he was talking about israel/palistien events and not the war on terrorism.
The guy asked about his kids being in the iraq war and he was cut off being like a dumbass, he actually said his nephews was in the war.
The whole part about the Bin Laden family not being questioned is false. Which is proven by the 9/11 pannell.
still, I haven't seen this movie, and I was out of town when it came out, but I still want to see it to make my own judgements.
the part where bush was playing golf he was talking about israel/palistien events and not the war on terrorism.
The guy asked about his kids being in the iraq war and he was cut off being like a dumbass, he actually said his nephews was in the war.
The whole part about the Bin Laden family not being questioned is false. Which is proven by the 9/11 pannell.
still, I haven't seen this movie, and I was out of town when it came out, but I still want to see it to make my own judgements.
Lol, true Cyan, there is a quite a bit more than the average person .. but its still a valid point. Moore could be sitting there proposing alternatives if he's so clever instead of spending so much time trying to get a goofy freeze-frame.
As for his pause before leaving the classroom. It was probably quiet in there, and I know I'd need a few minutes to gather my thoughts before entering the fray after hearing news like that. It wasn't exactly a regular event that occurred.
As for his pause before leaving the classroom. It was probably quiet in there, and I know I'd need a few minutes to gather my thoughts before entering the fray after hearing news like that. It wasn't exactly a regular event that occurred.
ok its been said a 100 times it seems already and im sure even ripclawe would agree on this...WHEN YOU ARE THE PRESIDENT OF THE US AND UR TOLD "COUNTRY UNDER ATTACK...2ND TOWER HIT" U DONT JUST SIT THERE!!!!
sorry for the caps. this doesnt mean he leaps up, scares the children, or magically pushes a button to make it all better but as the president you would think the first reaction would be to tell the children sorry i have to leave and go find out more about whats happening. remember he was only told america under attack, 2nd tower hit...how did he know that was it? how did he know the attack didnt include more?
im sorry this isnt even about politics....but as the president if i am told my country is under attack i dont give a shit where im at my first reaction would be to inquire more about it cause at that point all i know is we are under attack and not whether it is over, begining, or anything else.
sorry for the caps. this doesnt mean he leaps up, scares the children, or magically pushes a button to make it all better but as the president you would think the first reaction would be to tell the children sorry i have to leave and go find out more about whats happening. remember he was only told america under attack, 2nd tower hit...how did he know that was it? how did he know the attack didnt include more?
im sorry this isnt even about politics....but as the president if i am told my country is under attack i dont give a shit where im at my first reaction would be to inquire more about it cause at that point all i know is we are under attack and not whether it is over, begining, or anything else.
samus4ever
Banned
what could he of done? Their was nothing anyone could do to tell you the truth at that time. what should he of done? everything had already happened.
mjq jazz bar
Banned
THEY WERE NOT QUESTIONED. THE FBI COULD HAVE QUESTIONED THEM, BUT DID NOT.samus4ever said:
THE FILM NEVER SAYS THE FBI WEREN'T ALLOWED TO QUESTION THE BIN LADENS.
THIS IS THE KIND OF FACT WARPING THAT TURNS PEOPLE AGAINST MOORE.
And so he should leap out of his chair and do what exactly fart?
Or are you just going to tell me to read and abuse me like all good Moore-ites do?
The man has so much responsibility, I can't see why everyone is attacking him for wanting to gather his thoughts after news like that.
xsarien?
Or are you just going to tell me to read and abuse me like all good Moore-ites do?
The man has so much responsibility, I can't see why everyone is attacking him for wanting to gather his thoughts after news like that.
Fusebox said:
xsarien?
samus4ever
Banned
my god. has any other president had that happen to him? to blame him for this is just crazy. It was going to happen no matter who was president. how would you of reacated to the first news of 9/11?
what he could have done: excuse himself, walk out of the room, get briefed, possibly give orders.
what he did: flip through my pet goat.
i really don't see the apologist line of thinking here. he did nothing at all. he did nothing while people were dying. these were people that had (not, actually) elected him to lead the country. they were dying, and he was doing nothing.
what he did: flip through my pet goat.
i really don't see the apologist line of thinking here. he did nothing at all. he did nothing while people were dying. these were people that had (not, actually) elected him to lead the country. they were dying, and he was doing nothing.
Socreges: You bring a very important question to the table.
I think the fact that it's been 3 pages and no real discussion regarding where this documentary went "wrong", but rather discussion on how his insinuations are off-base (ie. to insinuate that freezing for 7 minutes is the wrong thing to do as a President who's just heard that his country is under attack from terrorists).
I think Moore has learnt from past documentaries, and made this far more fool-proof and "unarguable".
I think the fact that it's been 3 pages and no real discussion regarding where this documentary went "wrong", but rather discussion on how his insinuations are off-base (ie. to insinuate that freezing for 7 minutes is the wrong thing to do as a President who's just heard that his country is under attack from terrorists).
I think Moore has learnt from past documentaries, and made this far more fool-proof and "unarguable".
Spectral Glider
Member
Fight for Freeform said:
Exactly.
Murphmanstudios
Banned
Do you think it's possible that had Bush got up immediately after hearing the news, Moore would have said he knew the attack was coming and Bush is so pro-war that he has been waiting for his chance to have a real reason to start bombing people?
fart said:
I've seen quoted in this thread that 3000 people died while Bush sat reading a book. If that is indeed the case, sorry, no president could save them in that 7 minutes. Considering the total amount of casualties was around 4000 people, I seriously doubt that 3000 died while Bush was figuring out wtf to do.
People died. Seven minutes wasn't going to save anyone. Surely Fahrenheit 911 has more gripping moments than Bush sitting on his ass for *gasp* 7 minutes.
Some have said, he should leave the class to save the children. Here's a clue, if he left, the terrorists wouldn't know. Him leaving only saves himself, not the children. If there was a plane headed there, him leaving won't change its destination. Now you'll turn this around and say he should have left anyway, but that wasn't what you said on page 1.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
DJ_Tet said:
who knows what would have happened had he left - but when you have the supposed COMMANDER-in-chief of your country sitting on his ass when he COULD be 'commanding' people on what to do or finding out wtf was going on, i think there's something just a little wrong.
in hindsight, the speed of how the events occured show that him leaving probably wouldn't have made a lick of difference. but we'll never know because he just fucking sat there. the fact that the administration has tried to twist events around to claim that he was 'decisive' and left immediately is also cause for concern.
I'm sure had he left immediately things would have been much better than they are now. Even libs are confident of his ability. 7 minutes of Bush are probably equivalent to 20 min of Clinton. I can't believe he just "sat there". Man, 4000 Americans would have still been alive because Bush would have figured out a way for them all to safely "jump."
The wheels were turning, and what it illuminates best is the Commander in Chief is just a figurehead. Who knew.
Everyone except for Moore and his lackeys apparently.
The wheels were turning, and what it illuminates best is the Commander in Chief is just a figurehead. Who knew.
Everyone except for Moore and his lackeys apparently.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
i'm not claiming that he's a 'figurehead'.
with benefit of hindsight, of course you can say 'well, shit, it wouldn't have made a difference anyway'
AT THE TIME, surely if you are president of a country that is 'under attack' you would get up and find out what the hell was going on - that's all i'm saying. surely his first thought should have been 'i'm going to find out what's going on' not 'i'm going to sit here and do nothing'.
he didn't know what was going on; that's the point - he should have tried to find out. i'm not suggesting some kind of right-wing 'conspiracy' or anything of the sort.
with benefit of hindsight, of course you can say 'well, shit, it wouldn't have made a difference anyway'
AT THE TIME, surely if you are president of a country that is 'under attack' you would get up and find out what the hell was going on - that's all i'm saying. surely his first thought should have been 'i'm going to find out what's going on' not 'i'm going to sit here and do nothing'.
he didn't know what was going on; that's the point - he should have tried to find out. i'm not suggesting some kind of right-wing 'conspiracy' or anything of the sort.
It is all just "one side of the story" which makes it feel ...well like you should be skeptical about the film. It is full of half-truths.
Such as the implied idea Gore won in Florida, but Bush's buddy fixed the balloting vote. The recount's with Gore winning favored Gore, recounting where he is stronger or making judgement calls on iffy punch holes.
Such as showing Bush as spending too much time on vacation when Clinton's first year or so was nothing but parties and vacations itself. Spending a lot of time at Camp David is almost tradition now.
Or the whole Bush-in-the-classroom bit. Moore swung it as our leader being clueless and indecisive. If Bush just got right up in the middle of class urgently, thus alarming the students you might see Moore portay Bush as someone who was jsut sjumping at the chance for an excuse for war. Which actually would fit better with the rest of the movie.
You got to realize that politics makes you act dumb, get upset and unreasonable. Just look at how Santo has made an ass fo himself in this thread. If you take the movie with a grain of salt then that's good. If it makes you seek out the other side to better understand then that's also good.
Such as the implied idea Gore won in Florida, but Bush's buddy fixed the balloting vote. The recount's with Gore winning favored Gore, recounting where he is stronger or making judgement calls on iffy punch holes.
Such as showing Bush as spending too much time on vacation when Clinton's first year or so was nothing but parties and vacations itself. Spending a lot of time at Camp David is almost tradition now.
Or the whole Bush-in-the-classroom bit. Moore swung it as our leader being clueless and indecisive. If Bush just got right up in the middle of class urgently, thus alarming the students you might see Moore portay Bush as someone who was jsut sjumping at the chance for an excuse for war. Which actually would fit better with the rest of the movie.
You got to realize that politics makes you act dumb, get upset and unreasonable. Just look at how Santo has made an ass fo himself in this thread. If you take the movie with a grain of salt then that's good. If it makes you seek out the other side to better understand then that's also good.
julls said:
Anyone who voted for Bush in 2000, i.e. the majority of electoral votes, were voting in a populace, not Bush himself. I, as a Bush supporter (if he'd quit passing these damn liberal taxes, beside the point at hand), knew I was voting in a cabinent, not a Rambo. I don't want Bush making the critical decisions by himself. Same goes for Kerry. No one in that situation could have done a damn thing. What's so bad about sitting there and seeing what shoe will drop next? You are acting as though his delay cost Americans their lives, when it clearly didn't, in the moment and in retrospect.
I want to know what Gore would have done? Summon the Ents?
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
DJ_Tet said:
i'm not treating this as a bush/gore thing. i'd be just as weirded out if it, for example, happened in sydney and our PM sat reading a book for almost 10 minutes to a group of schoolkids. all i'm saying is i find it concerning when the president of a country chooses the option of complete inaction when he finds out said country is under attack. having said that, i can see your point about not wanting bush to make the decisions by himself
also, just for the record, i really have issues with michael moore - i'm not one of his supporters, and i think his horribly biased slant in his books/'documentaries' does more harm to his cause than good. i haven't seen Fahrenheit 9/11 yet so i can't comment. but I'm more intrigued to watch it for how he manipulates certain events/situations that he has footage of, than the point he is trying to make..
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
etiolate said:
it's a shame that this is true :\ i'm sure micahel moore would salivate at the idea , had bush rushed out of the classroom. to me, that's not what him leaving would have suggested - but somehow i'm sure moore would find a way to twist it around
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
mjq jazz bar said:
And why should we be FOR Moore? Is he the only person telling the truth? I don't think so. I hate the guy -- I think he's an asshole who has been conclusively shown to bend the facts to stir up controversy and make his "point". After BFC, he himself even said that he is an entertainer, and that is his motivation. For me, the guy has no credibility. And even though I happen to agree that Bush is a bad president, I'm not going to change my opinion of Moore and I'm CERTAINLY not going to support him by paying to see his movies.
I also think this focusing on those 7 minutes is ludicrous. Ever hear the term "Monday morning quarterback?" Stuff happens. Even the best and brightest don't always know what to do right away in a crisis, especially one where almost everyone was struck with disbelief like the events of 9/11/01. Remember, we didn't HAVE a Homeland Security Administration at the time. The agencies were wholly independent. Lines of communication were not clear. Getting the full and correct story to the right people was difficult, which is one of the reasons the attacks were able to be carried out in the first place. We're not talking about an extensive period of time here, folks -- just a couple hours from beginning to end. Could stuff have been better? Differently? Of course! If only the quarterback had thrown to the tight end instead of handing off to the running back, they would have got the touchdown and won the game!
SteveMeister said:
Yadda yadda yadda. Moore presents enough facts to show the Bush administration's flaws. True, he cracks a few jokes and arranges the facts in a not so realistic way... but facts are facts. Love Moore or hate him, you can't get pissed at him for underlining the facts. Get over it you right-wing slime!
If it were any other president, I'd probably feel bad for them. But I don't. The Bush administration is so corrupt.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
Diablos said:
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not pissed at Moore for Fahrenheit 9/11. I haven't SEEN it. I honestly haven't read much about what inaccuracies or falsehoods or whatever are in the movie. But I DID read about all the stuff he did in BFC. I DID see his outburst at the Academy Awards, and I've read interviews with him and others. THAT is the basis of my opinion of Moore, and why I won't see any of his movies INCLUDING F911. F911 could be the most factual, award winning and influential movie ever, and I still wouldn't have any interest in supporting Moore by watching his movies.
As I've said many times -- I do not like GW Bush, and I think his administration has done terrible things for our country. I sincerely hope he is not re-elected, and that the US will be able to somehow repair the damage Bush has caused in my lifetime. I am opposed to the Bush administration. But I am ALSO opposed to Michael Moore. The two are not mutually exclusive!
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