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[kumanoki]

My friends and I had a really gread discussion last weekend. We were discussing race relations and affirmative action.

My argument boiled down to this: It is socially unacceptable for white males to have opinions on racial or gender bias. Modern white males who were raised in the social climate where everyone is taught that women are equals and race should not be a deciding factor in our lives (anyone raised in the last twenty years, really) still must bear the scrutiny of people who are not white males. White males are not allowed to have opinions on race, lest they be branded racists or apologists. They are not allowed to discuss feelings on gender without being neanderthals or feminists. There is no middle ground for white males in our society. Voicing an opinion brings down an avalanche of history on the modern white male's head, a history of war and oppression and death that is just as appalling to his sensibilities as it is to anyone else. As soon as he speaks up, he is saddled with it.

My argument is not to throw out the 'woe is me' card, because that shit don't fly. No one cares, frankly. The general consensus when it comes to a white guy's feelings about race or gender is, "So?" It is generally accepted that, for all the 'advantages' white males have over 'less fortunate' people, his opinions don't matter because he's 'the man'.

I'm not asking for an advantage. I'm not asking anyone to give me anything. I'm not asking for anything other than to be able to involve myself in frank discussion without getting looks of derision from everyone around the table.

Thoughts? Am I totally off base?

 

[gblues]

*derisive look*

(j/k)

Nathan

 

[Lemurnator]

You ever pick a white mans cotton? Any of your ancestors ever pick a white mans cotton? You ever have a baby? You given birth? No?

You ever work for a dime a day in the strawberry fields? Do you have a period?

You can always voice your feelings towards Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and Canadians in a blog nobody will read and face minimal persecution. It's not like anyone will make you sit on the back of the internet.

By that same token though, a woman of any race can't speak out publically against the fact that we (still) live in a sociaty ruled predominantly by males. A society which attends to males interests moreso than it does to females. She can't speak out without being labeled a bitch or a feminazi. Reguardless of the fucked up divorce laws and some wholey fucked up child support cases, I don't think that makes up for the fact that it's harder to live and work in the United States as a woman than it is to live in the United States as a man. Your being vocally castrated doesn't fill the pay gap between males and females. It doesn't fill the difference in social acceptablility in how men and women behave sexually, or dress. It doesn't change the fact a nigga just can't catch a cab in New York City.

 

[Deg]

Wha?

 

[Monk]

I wait for the day when a guy can go full on in a fist fight with a woman and claim "equal rights".

 

[Deleted member 4784]

Assault and battery is a right? That's news to me. :lol

 

[Monk]

Assault and battery is a right? That's news to me. :lol

Damn well should be.

 

[android]

You ever pick a white mans cotton? Any of your ancestors ever pick a white mans cotton? You ever have a baby? You given birth? No?

You ever work for a dime a day in the strawberry fields? Do you have a period?

You can always voice your feelings towards Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and Canadians in a blog nobody will read and face minimal persecution. It's not like anyone will make you sit on the back of the internet.

Have you?
What happened in the past to those who are dead is all dust. If we as a species are to move foward, we must move forward. Blaming someones ancestor for something done to your ancestor is a endless cycle.

 

[Lambtron]

You ever pick a white mans cotton? Any of your ancestors ever pick a white mans cotton? You ever have a baby? You given birth? No?

You ever work for a dime a day in the strawberry fields? Do you have a period?

I'm not out toiling in the cotton fields, but neither are you. I don't have a period, or have to give birth, but I'm "blessed" with a less aesthetically appealing body, and having to wait 20 minutes between having orgasms. There's pros and cons to being male or female. The amount of pigment in your skin shouldn't allow you special treatment.

This thread is going to get huge really fast. So I'm going to throw my hat in the ring.

The expectations put upon any race are completely ridiculous. Hey, slavery sucks. It's a shitty thing, and it shouldn't have happened. But I, personally, me, I don't have any slaves. I never have, and never will. Why am I "the man?" Should I be on the short end of the affirmative action stick because of something my parents' parents' parents' parents MAY have done? Not every white person had an ancestor who held slaves. I'm 3/8ths Irish. The Irish have been oppressed constantly. I still don't get any sort of special treatment. Shit like Affirmative Action and the like sets back race relations so much. They still point out a difference in the races, and until that is gone, there's always going to be problems. I'm a person. Whether I'm white, black, yellow, puple, male, female, transgender, it shouldn't fucking matter, I should be afforded the same opportunities as everyone else. There are real problems in this country, but programs like Affirmative Action aren't going to fix it. It's like painting over rust.

So, yeah, kumanoki, I agree with you. Now it's time to get strung up by the PC brigade for being insensitive...

 

[Lemurnator]

I'm not out toiling in the cotton fields, but neither are you. I don't have a period, or have to give birth, but I'm "blessed" with a less aesthetically appealing body, and having to wait 20 minutes between having orgasms. There's pros and cons to being male or female. The amount of pigment in your skin shouldn't allow you special treatment.

This thread is going to get huge really fast. So I'm going to throw my hat in the ring.

The expectations put upon any race are completely ridiculous. Hey, slavery sucks. It's a shitty thing, and it shouldn't have happened. But I, personally, me, I don't have any slaves. I never have, and never will. Why am I "the man?" Should I be on the short end of the affirmative action stick because of something my parents' parents' parents' parents MAY have done? Not every white person had an ancestor who held slaves. I'm 3/8ths Irish. The Irish have been oppressed constantly. I still don't get any sort of special treatment. Shit like Affirmative Action and the like sets back race relations so much. They still point out a difference in the races, and until that is gone, there's always going to be problems. I'm a person. Whether I'm white, black, yellow, puple, male, female, transgender, it shouldn't fucking matter, I should be afforded the same opportunities as everyone else. There are real problems in this country, but programs like Affirmative Action aren't going to fix it. It's like painting over rust.

So, yeah, kumanoki, I agree with you. Now it's time to get strung up by the PC brigade for being insensitive...

Read my edited post.

 

[Lemurnator]

I don't think anyone has it easy. Everyone is oppressed in one way or another, or several. It doesn't matter race, gender, or creed. Of everyone though, nobody can convince me that white males aren't the best off of the bunch, at least in the United States.

 

[kumanoki]

By that same token though, a woman of any race can't speak out publically against the fact that we (still) live in a sociaty ruled predominantly by males. A society which attends to males interests moreso than it does to females. She can't speak out without being labeled a bitch or a feminazi. Reguardless of the ------ up divorce laws and some wholey ------ up child support cases, I don't think that makes up for the fact that it's harder to live and work in the United States as a woman than it is to live in the United States as a man. Your being vocally castrated doesn't fill the pay gap between males and females. It doesn't fill the difference in social acceptablility in how men and women behave sexually, or dress. It doesn't change the fact a ----- just can't catch a cab in New York City.

That is an interesting point you bring up. And to a certain extent you are right. I have no power to change the injustices women face. You got any ideas on how to fix that? However, it is socially acceptable, almost expected, for females to bring up the inequality issue.

Your being vocally castrated doesn't fill the pay gap between males and females.

All you are saying here is that my voice doesn't count because the system isn't fair.

 

[Sriram]

Lemurnator: You have somehow managed to completely miss the points of the thread. Yes usually the white man has it the easiest but that doesnt mean he cant have an opinion without being lumped with some other white guys.

 

[kumanoki]

I don't think anyone has it easy. Everyone is oppressed in one way or another, or several. It doesn't matter race, gender, or creed. Of everyone though, nobody can convince me that white males aren't the best off of the bunch, at least in the United States.

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I would say white males do have the most power in the United States. However, I'm not getting any 'benefits for da man' presents in my mailbox. I feel I'm on par with everyone else in the race and gender discussion. I'd just like to be able to discuss it without having my race and gender thrown back in my face like a dirty towel.

 

[demi]

I'm "blessed" with a less aesthetically appealing body, and having to wait 20 minutes between having orgasms.

HOO MOMMA BRING IT HOME

 

[android]

Read my edited post.

It doesn't change in the ignorance of the post. Your generalization about white men are as bad as the ones minorities have to deal with. My family is from Sweden and Germany and all had come to North America and most to Canada around the turn of the century to about 1925. But I guess in your eyes that makes me a decendant of slave owners or a nazi. Never mind that they were all poor farmers, who had to eke a living out toiling in the fields. Today people are being sold into sex slavery, being worked to the bone in sweatshops, dying of hunger and thirst. But I guess for you it is easier to fix the problems of the past than confront the future. Do I think minorities have it more difficult in the US. Yes. Is there still work to be done? Yep. Does using the pains of the past as a crutch help to advance the welfare of the community. Absolutly not.
PS. women are not a minority.

 

[Lambtron]

HOO MOMMA BRING IT HOME

THERE'S LOTS OF OTHER DUDES FOR YOU MAN! PROBABLY WITH TIGHTER ASSES! CHAIRMAN LMAO AGREES!

 

[Crandle]

There's a (white, middle-class) teacher at my school who believes opposition to programs like affirmative action is inherently racist; this view is shared by a fair number of students she's taught. So when I try to debate one of them about the merits of a pure meritocracy it...doesn't go very well.

She doesn't seem to have realized there's a flaw in calling objections to, say, race-based hiring prejudiced, but then ethno-Marxists aren't often noted for their ironclad logic.

 

[BobbyRobby]

I have a good affirmative action themed question. Would a rational person rather:

A. 6000 equally, objectively great scientists graduate from college in a year. They are all white males

or,

B. 5000 equally, objectively great scientists graduate from college in a year. They are 50% male, 50% female, and broken down by race proportional to the population.

I'm not saying this happens with affirmative action in place, just wondering your answers.

 

[demi]

THERE'S LOTS OF OTHER DUDES FOR YOU MAN! PROBABLY WITH TIGHTER ASSES! CHAIRMAN LMAO AGREES!

GENERAL AMBASSADOR LOL SAYS OK WITH YOU AND AGREES TO COLLABORATE WITH YOUR TIGHTLY LIPPED SEALED PROPOSAL OF HOT AROUSAL WITH CHINGCHANG MOMMA KABLOW

 

[Socreges]

I think your argument is often the case, but not always. It depends on the group of people. I have an unusually multi-cultural group of friends (plus a white, homogenized group on the side ), and we often have open, frank discussions and I don't feel like I'm at any disadvantage. I make my opinions known as much as the next person and never feel like I'm not being taken seriously since I'm white.

- I often speak to Muslims about my feelings on their religion/people/etc. But it's fine because I'm tactful about it.
- I've spoken to blacks about the word "n*gger" (and have found that I can't use it, ever, under any circumstances) and told them on how political correctness has gotten to the point where I, as a white male, am sometimes concerned that they will think I am discriminating against them
- Have walked the fine, dangerous line between an Indian and Pakistani

etc.

Not to suggest that where I live is racially harmonious...

I have a good affirmative action themed question. Would a rational person rather:

A. 6000 equally, objectively great scientists graduate from college in a year. They are all white males

or,

B. 5000 equally, objectively great scientists graduate from college in a year. They are 50% male, 50% female, and broken down by race proportional to the population.

I'm not saying this happens with affirmative action in place, just wondering your answers.

A.

But in reality, isn't it more like this:*

A. No affirmative action. Since people are racially prejudiced, some unqualified white people are hired while some qualified minorities are not. Scientists fill 90% of overall potential.

B. Affirmative action. Since affirmative action overcompensates for racial prejudice, some unqualified minorities are hired while some qualified whites are not. Scientists fill 90% of overall potential.

C. Society is blind to race. The best people for the job are always hired. Scientists fill 100% of overall potential.

But we don't have C. So do we choose A or B?

* assumes that prejudice against whites is insignificant in the greater scheme of things

 

[kablooey]

I don't know...I'm in favor of affirmative action. How many people can truly say they've been affected by it? In most cases, at least going from the evidence I've seen, the people who are adversely affected by it are people that wouldn't really deserve the job/university position in the first place, aside from the fact that they were white...

Affirmative action isn't as bad as many make it out to be, and although it shouldn't be seen as a permanent solution to racism, etc., in the short-term it'll help out people to get jobs that wouldn't have had a shot before.

As for the concept that whites can't express their opinion...well, I think that's really just a minor effect. All these people who say there should be "White Heritage Month" or whatever, are completely missing the point. Their opinions are already disproportionately heard in the mainstream, and it's time others had a shot at some recognition.

 

[way more]

I'm not asking for an advantage. I'm not asking anyone to give me anything.

Well you sure as hell have one, whether wanted or not a undeserved privilege has been granted to you.

 

[Heezzi]

THIS THREAD IS CRACKA TALK, CRACKA

 

[android]

:lol

 

[spliced]

I think it's mostly race, I don't really feel I have to hold back as much my opinions of women. But people seem very serious about race and one wrong comment and you are branded a racist.

 

[kumanoki]

Well you sure as hell have one, whether wanted or not a undeserved privilege has been granted to you.

Like I said, I haven't been getting my 'da man' checks in the mail. By whom have I been granted? Society? If anything, our society is more focused on raising up minorities to an 'equal' level than handing out goodies to white guys. The good ol' boy system? I guess you'd have to be a good ol' boy first. And what of a white man who denies his 'undeserved privilege'? Does he not still bear the brunt of society's blame simply by being white and male?

 

[Blackie]

I somewhat agree with you original poster guy. Is seems less acceptable in general for a white guy to air his grievances and edgy views on race and gender in public then for other colored guys and women. That never stops my white friends, though, they're loud as fuck about their racism/sexism. Hopefully this indicates that the next generation of white guys will be just as free to voice their race/gender opinions as anyone else.

 

[kumanoki]

Our society, now more than ever, is skewed with the opinion that the white male 'undeserved priviledge' is so heinous that white males should have no advantages at all. I am not saying that minorities don't have it hard, because they do. I'm not saying women don't have it hard, because they do. I'm saying, if a white male succeeds at something, his achievements are easily undercut by the concept of priviledges being handed to him, or the idea of him walking on the backs of minorities to reach his goal, which in most cases is simply not true.

It's the same type of mentality that makes a successful black man an 'Uncle Tom' or a 'Cosby'. You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

 

[masud]

But you rule the world. Isn't that a fair trade off?

 

[Socreges]

But you rule the world. Isn't that a fair trade off?

kumanoki rules the world??

 

[kumanoki]

Aw, mods, can I PLEASE get 'rules the world' as my tag?

 

[Socreges]

You rule the world. Do it yourself.

Better yet, get a black man to do it for you.

 

[AntoneM]

becuase most of the power of the world is in the control of a few white men, does not mean all white men are in on it.

 

[Heezzi]

Ruling the world is hard, cracka. Looks like you need some trainin.

 

[kumanoki]

You rule the world. Do it yourself.

Better yet, get a black man to do it for you.

Seriously, does GAF have any black mods?

 

[masud]

becuase most of the power of the world is in the control of a few white men, does not mean all white men are in on it.

And just because some delusional white guys think that all the women and brown people are out to get them doesn’t make it true.

 

[hXc_thugg]

And just because some delusional white guys think that all the women and brown people are out to get them doesn’t make it true.

Yeah, that's totally what his original post said. Good retort!

 

[Socreges]

Seriously, does GAF have any black mods?

A couple.

The work of affirmative action, I'd wager!

 

[kumanoki]

A couple.

The work of affirmative action, I'd wager!

Hey, whatever. Good for them. Can they get me the 'rules the world' tag?

Meh. If not, the nega-tag I have will be fine.

 

[masud]

Yeah, that's totally what his original post said. Good retort!

I know that I was being facetious because I don't think this arguement is worth having. I thought that was clear.

 

[kumanoki]

I know that I was being facetious because I don't think this arguement is worth having. I thought that was clear.

Why do you feel this argument isn't worth having?

 

[hXc_thugg]

I know that I was being facetious because I don't think this arguement is worth having. I thought that was clear.

Then why did you post anything at all in this topic?

 

[Mandark]

Your line about getting a check in the mail is disingenuous.

If your problem (many people being dismissive of your opinion) is an intangible problem with societal mores, why should your advantages be different?

Seriously, does GAF have any black mods?

As far as I know, just bishoptl, BlackAce, and Hitokage.

And Orin.

 

[masud]

Then why did you post anything at all in this topic?

Good point. I'll bow out, but keep fighting the good fight. Who knows maybe one day things will be better for the white man.

 

[kumanoki]

Your line about getting a check in the mail is disingenuous.

If your problem (many people being dismissive of your opinion) is an intangible problem with societal mores, why should your advantages be different?

My advantages? What advantages? My line about the check is not disingenuous because I haven't gotten anything for just being white. If anything, no one gives a shit. No one takes the dessert off my check for me being white. There are no secret whitey parties I'm invited to that you're not. I was raised lower middle class in southwest Georgia. Everyone was scraping by to make ends meet. I know what racism looks like, and I know what it does to people. The 'priviledges' people keep talking about are just as bullshit to me as they are to anyone else.

I'll never be able to make people understand that because, just by being white and male, society says I'm always going to be part of the problem.

 

[kumanoki]

Good point. I'll bow out, but keep fighting the good fight. Who knows maybe one day things will be better for the white man.

You soooo make my point for me. Thanks.

 

[hXc_thugg]

Good point. I'll bow out, but keep fighting the good fight. Who knows maybe one day things will be better for the white man.

The ethnic group I identify with has a holiday on March 17th, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Mandark]

You claim that society has afforded you a disadvantage because of your status as a white male. This disadvantage is not legal, financial, physical, or tangible.

You also claim that society has not afforded you any advantages. As evidence, you list several financial or otherwise tangible advantages that you could have been afforded, but weren't.

Do you see how you are using two different standards there?

 

[RevenantKioku]

You claim that society has afforded you a disadvantage because of your status as a white male. This disadvantage is not legal, financial, physical, or tangible.

You also claim that society has not afforded you any advantages. As evidence, you list several financial or otherwise tangible advantages that you could have been afforded, but weren't.

Do you see how you are using two different standards there?

I'm not seeing how that matters.
He's saying he's getting a disadvantage, which in turn is argued for with advantages that he is claiming to never see.