Support NeoGAF

[Sage00]

Please tell this to my Korean family. Tell them to fuck off that they dare think they are American. Do you not see your western perspective?

I don't think you understood what I meant at all.
America does not have a race-based concept of being American borne out of homogeneity. China does. China, Korea, Japan and most countries like them have special places in their society for natives, halfs, returnees and foreigners. You don't get to move between them.

 

[Fast Forward]

Meh, this is, in part, why I like Star Trek so much. I wish we could move beyond National pride, and move onto pride for the planet Earth. Pride for the human race.

Plus, I'll be honest. I want warp drive.

 

[MHWilliams]

If you look at his whole article, his main argument is that Chinese was not a race-based concept in the past, when China was considered "strong". This is how there were multicultural cities and how Mongolians and Manchurians minorities ruled as Chinese emperors.

He is not making an Argument B, his point is that B results from Argument A. If the concept of Chinese is not tied to race, that should mean more open immigration and participation in government. Your concept of American is not the opposite side at all--if American was tied to a concept of a specific race, than a foreign native could not become an American simply by moving to the US (and they definitely cannot participate in government).

Once again, you miss my point.

He has a concept of what Chinese is. He wishes that others would align with his concept of what Chinese is - which in his case carries certain cultural signifiers. I'm saying the push of his personal cultural signifiers of what it means to be Chinese undercuts his argument. He himself has tied his concept of "Chinese" to specific ideas, many of which could be considered to have come from a specific ethnic group of people within China. And then is unhappy when others may have a different view.

This is why I say Argument A is one against people and perception. "I do X cultural things, you should see me as Chinese." becomes "I speak English. I fish and hunt. I own many guns. I sing the National Anthem. People should see me as American." That's an incorrect argument. That you do those things is almost immaterial.

"I have been here in China. I have gone through the naturalization process. I care about the well-being of this country. I observe the laws of this government. I should be seen as Chinese." This is a correct argument. And it's a different one from the argument above. You can conflate the two, but they are not the same.

Would another way to say it ,MHWililams, is 'what does it mean to be Chinese?'.

In short, yes. Posed directly to the author in this case.

---

Alas, I must sleep. Perhaps I shall continue this tomorrow evening if it's still around.

 

[Mr. Mister]

I don't think you understood what I meant at all.
America does not have a race-based concept of being American borne out of homogeneity. China does. China, Korea, Japan and most countries like them have special places in their society for natives, halfs, returnees and foreigners. You don't get to move between them.

Huh. What's the right answer then? American needs better distinctions? That's weird.

Also most other places "like them". Lol.

 

[Dead Man]

Maybe we could've had that conversation but I see that you've chosen to be condescending instead, so okay.

I think you might be interpreting that post in a way that it was not meant.

 

[Syriel]

I guess he doesn't feel like he's worshiped or something.

Glass ceiling for minorities is a thing.

The fuck is this shit?

This guy is troll. There's no way this is true. He fooled the WSJ, because this shit can't be real.

Nationality is not ethnicity. He'll never be Han, but he can certainly be Chinese.

Or would you accept someone telling you that you can never be American because of your ethnicity?

As China becomes a larger and larger player on the world stage, its own racial issues will become visible, just as America's have in the past. It's part of growing as a country.

China has equality in its governing documents, so what is wrong with calling out discrimination when it occurs? You're looking at it from the perspective of a minority in America. He's looking at it from the perspective of a minority in China.

 

[Sage00]

But this is wrong and should be changed.

That's your opinion and it may be how your country acts. The people of those countries can respectfully disagree and they have no obligation to be reciprocal. You can't force them to bend to you or anyone else's rules or standards. That is the definition of imperialism.

Nationality is not ethnicity. He'll never be Han, but he can certainly be Chinese.

Or would you accept someone telling you that you can never be American because of your ethnicity

Look at this post. The anger that someone else will not surrender to you their identity, as if you should be able to have it all if you so choose. Simply because you're western and you let other people have your title that they don't want or care about? The height of entitlement.

 

[Rmagnus]

That's your opinion and it may be how your country acts. The people of those countries can respectfully disagree and they have no obligation to be reciprocal. You can't force them to bend to you or anyone else's rules or standards. That is the definition of imperialism.

Well wasn't that the whole idea of what the great Britian tired to do? Somehow they always know better.

 

[wandering]

Glass ceiling for minorities is a thing.



Nationality is not ethnicity. He'll never be Han, but he can certainly be Chinese.

Or would you accept someone telling you that you can never be American because of your ethnicity?

As China becomes a larger and larger player on the world stage, its own racial issues will become visible, just as America's have in the past. It's part of growing as a country.

China has equality in its governing documents, so what is wrong with calling out discrimination when it occurs? You're looking at it from the perspective of a minority in America. He's looking at it from the perspective of a minority in China.

backslashbunny is pointing out the absurdity of his statement about wearing traditional Chinese clothing as a barometer of his "Chineseness". MHWilliams is making good points above and on the previous page: the issue is not with his assertion that China ought to move past a notion of nationality as tied to ethnicity, the issue is that the thrust of his initial point is driven by a weird claim that he ought to be considered Chinese because he's so "good" at his particular interpretation of Chinese culture.

 

[Qvoth]

Nationality is not ethnicity. He'll never be Han, but he can certainly be Chinese.

Or would you accept someone telling you that you can never be American because of your ethnicity?

this doesn't really make sense imo
america and china are 2 different countries
different countries have different cultures, different views for the world, it's only natural they would have different immigration policies

 

[Mr. Mister]

That's your opinion and it may be how your country acts. The people of those countries can respectfully disagree and they have no obligation to be reciprocal. You can't force them to bend to you or anyone else's rules or standards. That is the definition of imperialism.

Cool. Then I guess we all agree in a terrible way?

 

[Hypron]

That's your opinion and it may be how your country acts. The people of those countries can respectfully disagree and they have no obligation to be reciprocal. You can't force them to bend to you or anyone else's rules or standards. That is the definition of imperialism.

Of course no one can force them to do anything, we're just offering our opinions here. As an immigrant myself I believe everyone has something to gain from accepting and interacting with a diverse set of people from different backgrounds as themselves. Othering them for their entire lives is not productive.

 

[Finaika]

What's weaboo for Chinese things?

Weibo.

 

[Principate]

That's your opinion and it may be how your country acts. The people of those countries can respectfully disagree and they have no obligation to be reciprocal. You can't force them to bend to you or anyone else's rules or standards. That is the definition of imperialism.

The people of a country are not a monilitg and never have been. Western countries only started to consider people like this guy part of their identity after decades of struggle by people like this guy. Look at African Americans in the u.s. how long until they were granted full citizen ship and they were there since the country had founded similar examples exist all over.

Frankly your position seems naive amndill thought. Do you not think a substantial amount of citizens of these countries such as western nations still do not consider people of certain races part of their national identity.

America the supposed bastion of this argument elected a president that wanted to bar Mexicans entry into the country via a walk. Called most Mexicans rapists. Won almost half of the voting public.

The "public" never accept a you some of most do maybe most but that's often a case by case basis.

If people in the past followed argument every country would be as ethnically homogeneous as possible.

 

[Sage00]

Of course no one can force them to do anything, we're just offering our opinions here. As an immigrant myself I believe everyone has something to gain from accepting and interacting with a diverse set of people from different backgrounds as themselves. Othering them for their entire lives is not productive.

From one immigrant to another I think the idea of being accepting towards immigration is very complex and very much open to debate, but something I'll always side on being generally a net positive. A very different issue from viewing said immigrants as a member of the native people though, which is by no means a prerequisite of good immigration policy.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

guys my wife wanted to take our wedding pictures in traditional Japanese dress years ago and I said yes cuz I knew it would look awesome.

did I fuck up? i am reading this guys article and starting to doubt myself.

 

[Ratrat]

guys my wife wanted to take our wedding pictures in traditional Japanese dress years ago and I said yes cuz I knew it would look awesome.

did I fuck up? i am reading this guys article and starting to doubt myself.

As a Japanese person I think its awesome and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

This is assuming its authentic and not some mockery cosplay.

 

[Zelenogorsk]

lol China now has its own Debito Arudou

guys my wife wanted to take our wedding pictures in traditional Japanese dress years ago and I said yes cuz I knew it would look awesome.

did I fuck up? i am reading this guys article and starting to doubt myself.

It depends. Were there Naruto wall scrolls in the background?

 

[Sianos]

Treating immigrants poorly based on their heritage is wrong as a general principle.

However, the evidence that he is a dean at a prodigious university and his proclamation that he is "more Chinese than natives of China" suggest that any derision is directed towards him as an individual once he opens his mouth. This is not an example of an immigrant being treated poorly because of their heritage.

On another note, it is true that immigrants are not natives as a result of having different experiences from natives. I think I'm just predisposed to react negatively to that statement being expressed because how in the context of racism in the United States I only hear it expressed in those terms as a precursor to throwing out stereotypes against minority immigrants. Merely saying "immigrants are not natives" is not a racist statement, but because it is so often used as a stepping stone to racism in my own culture I've come to conflate it in situations where that intent was not meant. That is the danger of not being aware of connotative associations clouding the mind.

(Still gonna figuratively side eye the fuck out of any Republican when they use the phrase "Real American")

 

[m3k]

lol fantastic

 

[BreezyLimbo]

In short, yes. Posed directly to the author in this case.

Mhm, yeah. And to the author that means...wearing traditional garb? Studying Chinese philosophy? Following that Philosophy for how you lead your life? That others say he's more Chinese than the 'Chinese' and therefore he is doing it right?

Like...if we take the Authors point of view as an answer to 'what it means to be Chinese'....it doesn't make him Chinese, really. It makes him attuned to anothers customs. It's essentially this, but literally:

Being Chinese...being Korean, being German, being whatever...it's more than moving to another land assimilating. It's growing up in that area. It's having been raised there. This is true for anyone moving elsewhere. Whether it's a Chinese person moving to America, or an American moving to China, they both will always be considered foreigners. Whether it's through their broken speech or their look, they will always be considered different. Their children will have an easier time of course, being born in their new country. It'll still be difficult, however. But being a nationality, being a part of a culture is much, much more than just moving to another area. It's something that you gain through growing up in it. Yes, you can come to learn of the customs, and to appreciate the culture, and even participate in it, but it requires more to actually be accepted by those whose lands you come upon, something that can only be gained by living their since the start of your life.

For example, if I choose to move to Europe tomorrow and live in say, France, I'll never 'be' french. I can gain citizenship, I can learn the language, I can learn the customs, and I can blend into it, but I will never be French, because my core will always be American, if that makes sense.

 

[Sianos]

Mhm, yeah. And to the author that means...wearing traditional garb? Studying Chinese philosophy? Following that Philosophy for how you lead your life? That others say he's more Chinese than the 'Chinese' and therefore he is doing it right?

Like...if we take the Authors point of view as an answer to 'what it means to be Chinese'....it doesn't make him Chinese, really. It makes him attuned to anothers customs. It's essentially this, but literally:

Pointing to that guy in the first image and saying "you're not really Japanese" is communicating the thought "stop exoticizing someone else's culture as your aesthetic and respect people of other cultures as human beings".

This is not what Republicans mean when they say non-white immigrants are "not Real Americans".

The issue is that two diametrically opposed perspectives are being communicated using the same words. I think it's an imprecision of language issue.

Terms like cultural appropriation are good for this reason. I think that conveys the idea meant to be expressed much better than saying someone isn't a real _____.

 

[Zelenogorsk]

lol that Kenichi Smith pasta always remind me of this classic:

 

[Maledict]

Maybe everyone can be Chinese when China stops cracking down on non/Han groups, refused to achnlowledge even the existence of many, many ethnic groups in China, and stops with its policies of forceable relocation of minority groups in favour of Han people's.

What an utterly fucking stupid, ignorant article.

 

[Magni]

Not gonna waste time on the guy from the OP as others have already mentioned how stupid his "more Chinese than the Chinese" thing is, but he does raise a valid point on ethnicity vs nationality vs culture.

People move more than they used to. We used to live in a monocultural world, now we have an ever-increasing number of biculturals and pluriculturals. Both our language(s) and our culture(s) need to to evolve to take that into account.

I was born in the US to a French family. I grew up bicultural, spending roughly half my childhood in both countries. Three more countries later, I now live in Japan. My primary language at home with my wife is a Spanish-Japanese hybrid. What am I?

For cities, it's a lot easier. Once you know how to get around without looking like a tourist, you're part of the city. I was a Parisian for three years of high school, a New Yorker for three years after university, and now a Tokyoite. But for countries, it's still a lot harder.

In France, I'm American, in the US I'm French, and elsewhere I'm a question mark.

fake edit: as to what I consider myself, I feel just about equally French and American, and while I would never call myself Norwegian, Chilean, or Japanese (the three other countries I have lived in), I do consider those three to be a small part of who I am today, culturally.

 

[BennyBlanco]

If you lived somewhere for 20 years, you would probably identify as that nationality. Makes sense.

Where you lose me is the "traditional chinese clothing". This would be like somebody showing up to a meeting in the US in cowboy garb.

 

[Sianos]

Being Chinese...being Korean, being German, being whatever...it's more than moving to another land assimilating. It's growing up in that area. It's having been raised there. This is true for anyone moving elsewhere. Whether it's a Chinese person moving to America, or an American moving to China, they both will always be considered foreigners. Whether it's through their broken speech or their look, they will always be considered different. Their children will have an easier time of course, being born in their new country. It'll still be difficult, however. But being a nationality, being a part of a culture is much, much more than just moving to another area. It's something that you gain through growing up in it. Yes, you can come to learn of the customs, and to appreciate the culture, and even participate in it, but it requires more to actually be accepted by those whose lands you come upon, something that can only be gained by living their since the start of your life.

For example, if I choose to move to Europe tomorrow and live in say, France, I'll never 'be' french. I can gain citizenship, I can learn the language, I can learn the customs, and I can blend into it, but I will never be French, because my core will always be American, if that makes sense.

I agree with this sentiment. However, I think it is unacceptable to treat someone poorly because they are a foreigner. Treat someone poorly for being an asshole as an individual. Not because of their ancestry.

Being derisive people who are learning a new language is especially rude in my opinion. Conjures up images of white people in the United States screaming that minorities need to SPEAK AMERICAN and mockingly imitating their accents. Of course, I'm sure we both think that's wrong.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I agree with this sentiment. However, I think it is unacceptable to treat someone poorly because they are a foreigner. Treat someone poorly for being an asshole as an individual. Not because of their ancestry.

Being derisive people who are learning a new language is especially rude in my opinion. Conjures up images of white people in the United States screaming that minorities need to SPEAK AMERICAN and mockingly imitating their accents. Of course, I'm sure we both think that's wrong.

Sure. That's the dream, treating everyone fairly.

But people born of the same nationality can't even treat each other right. It's a pipe dream, unfortunately.

 

[GG-Duo]

Did the article talk about how China doesn't recognize dual citizenships? There's been cases where emigrants' children are considered "Chinese" when they travel into China and do not accept them as visitors, just as a returner.

In other words, they also lose their other countries' diplomatic protections. This is why I have considered renouncing my Hong Kong citizenship and just hold Canadian.

 

[G.ZZZ]

No, I'm not baffled by that. I don't know if I should feel miffed that you chose the most easily comprehensible possible thing for me to be baffled by!

Look at the post I was responding to, and the post that he was responding to and maybe it'll make more sense:



That's what I'm baffled by; that people don't seem to completely misunderstanding the argument that he's making, which is that China needs to make the kind of changes mdubs talked about in his post:



And the litmus test for the success of that project would be the perception of immigrants like the author that they are "viewed as a Chinese not just in my own mind but in the minds of my fellow Chinese."

And as I pointed out in my post, because of China's demographic issues (in the next 30 years, they are going from ~1.4 billion with ~100 million old people to 1.3 billion with 329 million old people, with only 1.6 workers per retiree in a country, followed by a demographic collapse in which their population drops by ~400 million to just around 1 billion.), they are going to need to attract immigrants. How are they going to do that?

No offense but all the "we need immigrants in 30 years" is extremely overblown.
In most western countries, young people have record unemployement already now. How is it helping to get more young people that do not work? The system is not working as it has always been and to expect it will in 30 years is just being myopic right now.

 

[Sianos]

On the first example, yes. If someone moved to China and wants to be a Chinese citizen, they're Chinese and honestly should be treated that way if they want. In all likelihood, people will see them as white or foreign, and it won't go away for generations. That sucks and that attitude should change. I agree with the author on this point.

But reducing "being" Chinese to ... wearing traditional garb and studying a single kind of Chinese religion, is ridiculous. I am not going to immigrate to Japan, put on a kimono to a business meeting, read about samurai, and use that to prove I am more Japanese than other Japanese people. While the author has a legitimate point, this part just sounds like he's fetishizing a culture.

I understand where this guy is coming from because I do understand the stupid ideas some Chinese people hold about Chinese purity. That you're not "really" Chinese unless you're Chinese by blood. Even my own parents express this idea - one of my friends, whose family considers themselves China as they immigrated from there, was not considered "pure" Chinese by my parents, all because "originally" their grandparents were from Vietnam. It didn't make any sense to me. There's also the idea that "mixed blood" Chinese people aren't the same as those who are not mixed, even if you're mixed with other Asians. There's all sorts of insane and frankly downright racist ideas that revolve about Chinese blood, and that's not even getting into the whole where were you born thing. So yes, I personally think those ideas should stop, and that in general we shouldn't gatekeep sincere people who want to join our group (this applies for all things). However, I am definitely skeptical of what this particular guy is trying to say about being Chinese when his example includes being the only person to wear "traditional Chinese clothing" to meetings. Like... what.

This guy is absolutely a ridiculous fool who's just crying because people have rightfully called him out on treating the cultural heritage of China as a costume.

My view is that with increased globalization from people continue to move around the world and carrying latency free video calls with new friends across oceans we'll see both a general increase in tolerance by the next generations and at the same time an uprising by those who grew up with a schemata for the world built on a foundation of racism.

I do worry what impact further medical control over the human body will have on sociocultural norms once it expands. I support this conceptually from the perspective of enabling gender expression - and of course because of the positive health benefits - but combined with disparities of wealth it's going to create some severe problems.

 

[Kinokou]

But say, if he had a canadian wife and they have a child, we would call that child chinese since, as I understood the situation, this guy now has a chinese passport and so would the child?

I'm kind of used to starting to call people Norwegian if they have a Norwegian passport (I'm kind of using passport as shorthand for Statsborgerskap, which I think would be permanent residency in English but not quite sure EDIT: Citizenship is what statsborgerskap is), So I kind of don't get the debate as I would for sure think of this person as Norwegian if he wrote this from Norway.

Edit: So I might have misunderstood what I did read in this thread by being confused by the phrase permanent residency.

 

[Principate]

No offense but all the "we need immigrants in 30 years" is extremely overblown.
In most western countries, young people have record unemployement already now. How is it helping to get more young people that do not work? The system is not working as it has always been and to expect it will in 30 years is just being myopic right now.

Eh you seem not to realise where a lot of these immigrants are working. Young people by and large in a lot of western countries tend to opt for university level education. They're not working in care homes, warehouses, cleaning, nursing, factories and the like long term. They did not get into tens of thousands of debt to do those jobs. They do not want those jobs. But those jobs help the economy and welfare and need to be done none the less. Look at the massive shortfall of nursing position applications since Britain voted to leave the EU.

 

[Syriel]

That's your opinion and it may be how your country acts. The people of those countries can respectfully disagree and they have no obligation to be reciprocal. You can't force them to bend to you or anyone else's rules or standards. That is the definition of imperialism.

Look at this post. The anger that someone else will not surrender to you their identity, as if you should be able to have it all if you so choose. Simply because you're western and you let other people have your title that they don't want or care about? The height of entitlement.

This reads like something straight out a Trump speech about immigrants.

Believing that things such as racism, slavery, etc. are immoral and cannot be excused by "culture" is not imperialism or entitlement. It is simply the difference between right and wrong.

Following your logic things like FGM should be accepted because they are part of another country's culture and no one should call it out as wrong.

Did you miss the absurdity of what I was replying to, or do you legitimately see nothing wrong with it?

What I saw was an account of how the author felt that no matter what he did, he was always treated as an "other" in his home. The wording wasn't the best, but it sounded much like the stories I've heard over the years from people talking about how they have learned to drop their accent when speaking English, made an effort to get familiar with American sports, etc., but no matter how great the effort to fit in, they're still seen as "second best" and not "good enough."

It is a kind of discrimination that is both insidious and very real, and it still happens in the US.

Your response seemed to focus on one little aspect of his story and completely discounted the rest of it.

I understand where this guy is coming from because I do understand the stupid ideas some Chinese people hold about Chinese purity. That you're not "really" Chinese unless you're Chinese by blood. Even my own parents express this idea - one of my friends, whose family considers themselves China as they immigrated from there, was not considered "pure" Chinese by my parents, all because "originally" their grandparents were from Vietnam. It didn't make any sense to me. There's also the idea that "mixed blood" Chinese people aren't the same as those who are not mixed, even if you're mixed with other Asians. There's all sorts of insane and frankly downright racist ideas that revolve about Chinese blood, and that's not even getting into the whole where were you born thing. So yes, I personally think those ideas should stop, and that in general we shouldn't gatekeep sincere people who want to join our group (this applies for all things).

Now this I agree with. From your initial response, I thought you were supporting the idea that the only way to be Chinese was to be Han and essentially agreeing with Sage00.

 

[Shanks D Zoro]

guys my wife wanted to take our wedding pictures in traditional Japanese dress years ago and I said yes cuz I knew it would look awesome.

did I fuck up? i am reading this guys article and starting to doubt myself.

No, it is a sign of respect for her culture. Same as how non-Japanese sumos wear the traditional dress in their public life.

I live in Korea and many non-Koreans who marry Koreans have a photo of them in traditional hanboks. However, in Korea, just like in China, nobody goes around wearing that in daily life.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

As a Japanese person I think its awesome and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

This is assuming its authentic and not some mockery cosplay.

Whew. It was authentic. I had a nice rental Hakama and such but my wife was wearing a family heirloom kimono.

lol China now has its own Debito Arudou



It depends. Were there Naruto wall scrolls in the background?

No, but I think I still have a Trigun wallscroll somewhere in my closet. Maybe.

Do you use this as a way to prove to others how you're more "Japanese" than other people in Japan? If yes, yes. If no, no.

Nah, I'm good on that front. I just gotta show off my impeccable knowledge of the Gundam franchise and they usually concede defeat.

 

[Shanks D Zoro]

As someone who has lived in Korea for many years, I have often wondered about this. You are ultimately at the mercy of that country, not matter how much you protest. Not every country on this planet subscribe to western definitions. Some countries welcome the idea, others don't. Korea is a country that still looks unfavourably on people of Korean heritage born abroad.

 

[numble]

Once again, you miss my point.

He has a concept of what Chinese is. He wishes that others would align with his concept of what Chinese is - which in his case carries certain cultural signifiers. I'm saying the push of his personal cultural signifiers of what it means to be Chinese undercuts his argument. He himself has tied his concept of "Chinese" to specific ideas, many of which could be considered to have come from a specific ethnic group of people within China. And then is unhappy when others may have a different view.

This is why I say Argument A is one against people and perception. "I do X cultural things, you should see me as Chinese." becomes "I speak English. I fish and hunt. I own many guns. I sing the National Anthem. People should see me as American." That's an incorrect argument. That you do those things is almost immaterial.

"I have been here in China. I have gone through the naturalization process. I care about the well-being of this country. I observe the laws of this government. I should be seen as Chinese." This is a correct argument. And it's a different one from the argument above. You can conflate the two, but they are not the same.



In short, yes. Posed directly to the author in this case.

---

Alas, I must sleep. Perhaps I shall continue this tomorrow evening if it's still around.

No, he acknowledges that the current concept of Chinese is race-based. You are harping on one of his paragraphs where he explains why the current concept is not based on language, culture, or legal concepts of nationality.

The real obstacle to popular acceptance is the assumption that Chineseness is a racial category.
..
It was in the wake of these events that a race-based conception of Chinese identity took hold. Leading reformers of the day, such as the scholar and political thinker Kang Youwei, traveled the world and came to the pessimistic conclusion that different races were engaged in a deadly struggle for survival. They saw Chinese identity as the legitimate racial basis for a nation-state that could take its place against other similarly constituted nations.

That legacy still shapes attitudes today.

He argues that Chinese meant different things in the past, not tied to the Han ethnicity:

As the historian Yuri Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem has noted, the dominant elite culture in ancient China emphasized cultural belonging, not race or ethnicity, as the most important trait for citizenship. Chinese people were those who adhered to the common ritual norms of the Zhou dynasty (1046-256 B.C.). One could learn to be Chinese.


During much of its history, particularly the eras of prosperity and glory, China was an open society that welcomed foreigners. The Tang dynasty (A.D. 618-907) is a classic example. The capital Chang’an was a multicultural urban center with nearly a million residents and drew ambitious migrants from around the world. Its greatest generals were Turks, Koreans and Sogdians (an ancient Iranian civilization). Arab scholars could participate in the imperial examinations. Li Bai, its most famous poet, was perhaps of Central Asian stock.

His argument is to move away from the race-based conception of Chinese. It certainly isn't an argument for Zhou dynasty culture, Xi'an culture or Central Asian poetry to be the basis of Chinese culture.

 

[HappyBivouac]

Rambling thoughts incoming.

He's not wrong, per se, in that in a perfect world nobody would ever be treated as an outsider to any community based on appearance or ethnicity alone. However, I hope I can be forgiven for saying that, having lived as an American in Asia- the majority of my time being in China-for almost 5 years now, I read this and immediately I know his type. Constantly flaunts his understanding of China's "rich culture and history," dresses in cheap touristy costume versions of old imperial clothing, dissociates from and even looks down upon other westerners in China. Generally very obnoxious and cringey to be around, for both westerners and locals alike. Gets really upset when locals speak English to him, demanding to be regarded as a fellow Chinese. I've met people like this and they tend to have a chip on their shoulder and generally not be very nice. I can't necessarily assume all of that about this guy, but if it quacks like a duck...

I know identity is important to a lot of people, but in this case I can't see why people like this guy want it so badly. Understand that you're coming to a culture that has been extremely homogeneous for thousands of years. Yes, there are minority groups among the Chinese, and the dominant ethnicity has changed a few times, but as a westerner you're still a far cry from what has been the norm for millenia. Not only that, but this guy definitely knows how important heritage and family lineage are in this culture, so to come in with no family ties to Han Chinese and say "how do you do, fellow Chinese?" Just won't be taken seriously. You're talking about wanting to be accepted as part of a culture while trying to change an integral part of it. Like it or not, call it outdated thinking or whatever, but to most Chinese, being Chinese is in one's blood. I agree that this is ultimately a bad thing for social progress around the world, but you're not gonna change that notion for 1.6 billion people with a whiny, ego-driven, and largely self-serving opinion piece.

Again, I personally can't fathom giving a shit about this, but I've met quite a few guys who do. It's odd to me that someone would go to a country where they'll obviously stand out in a crowd and stay for so long if they're the type to be sensitive about it. I personally never gave a shit whether I'm thought of as a Chinese or American or goofy looking big nosed laowai or whatever. I'm not bothered by the weird stares I get in public or the random "hello!" or people taking my picture. I don't see it as patronizing when people tell me my Chinese is good, and it doesn't bother me when people go out of their way to speak English to me.

I might be missing the part of the human brain that makes people really want to fit in to a predefined identity, because I can't figure out why it matters. Either way, I'm not sure walking around with a chip on your shoulder in a goofy costume is the best way to achieve it.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Nationality is not ethnicity. He'll never be Han, but he can certainly be Chinese.

To get a real chinese ID as a foreigner is almost impossible.
This guy sounds like a piece of work and really like a chinese weeb. Seriously? Wearing traditional chinese clothing at conferences, when everyone else wears suits?

. Constantly flaunts his understanding of China's "rich culture and history," dresses in cheap touristy costume versions of old imperial clothing, dissociates from and even looks down upon other westerners in China. Generally very obnoxious and cringey to be around, for both westerners and locals alike.it.

Seriously...
Wearing traditional chinese clothing at conferences. It doesnt actually seem like he knows China.

However, in Korea, just like in China, nobody goes around wearing that in daily life.

It depends. A lot of the really old generation like to walk around in some traditional costumes, especially in non Tier A cities.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Eh you seem not to realise where a lot of these immigrants are working. Young people by and large in a lot of western countries tend to opt for university level education. They're not working in care homes, warehouses, cleaning, nursing, factories and the like long term. They did not get into tens of thousands of debt to do those jobs. They do not want those jobs. But those jobs help the economy and welfare and need to be done none the less. Look at the massive shortfall of nursing position applications since Britain voted to leave the EU.

You're talking about the US where university is an investment and people have basically no worker's rights. I'm talking about EU where universities are free and people routinely graduate again at later ages for employment purpose (like i and many people i know did, by graduating in a sanitary degree. 20% or more of people taking said degrees have already a degree).
When you hit 40% unemployment rate and live under the poverty line you'd love to do those jobs. In Italy, we have routinely 10k+ people doing massive job selection contest for 100 places or less. Those are safe paying stable jobs, basically a dream for everyone born in the 80' and later. And nursing has always been an extremely popular university choice for everyone.

I can't find many arcticles on this in english, but this one on wired is pretty telling on what do young people face today:

10000 people for 14 places in the police force
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/michele-borzoni-open-competitive-examinations/

A recent case of 10000 people for about 100 nursing jobs, but in italian:
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/17_...20-11e7-99cd-8ba21567bad4.shtml?refresh_ce-cp

Those are relatively common occurrences down here. Like, the only actual job right now are slave-pay grade because of this much competition and unemployment. The solution isn't to take in more immigrants to drive wages down and create a slave class. The solution is to have actual redistribution of wealth fucking works again.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

If he's the only one wearing traditional clothes, maybe he doesn't really understand modern chinese culture after all.

I love the idea of him looking around and shouting "STOP BEING CHINESE WRONG!"

 

[Jinroh]

He might be missing the point about cultural differences between Asia and western countries in general. We've had some strong immigration (especially among ourselves) and shifted our identity concepts from ethnicity to what's on our passport, mostly.

It's not the case in Asia. Take Japan who hires foreign workers of japanese ethnicity from Brazil. It's just comparing oranges to apples.

I've read similar articles about people living in Japan who are frustrated that locals try to talk to them in english. It's a justified frustration but acting like a weirdo who dresses in traditional local clothes isn't going to do much about it.

Also I'm not even sure some Chinese nationals like the Uyghurs are considered like "real" chinese in their own country.

 

[Dreamgazer]

Being Chinese...being Korean, being German, being whatever...it's more than moving to another land assimilating. It's growing up in that area. It's having been raised there. This is true for anyone moving elsewhere. Whether it's a Chinese person moving to America, or an American moving to China, they both will always be considered foreigners. Whether it's through their broken speech or their look, they will always be considered different. Their children will have an easier time of course, being born in their new country. It'll still be difficult, however. But being a nationality, being a part of a culture is much, much more than just moving to another area. It's something that you gain through growing up in it. Yes, you can come to learn of the customs, and to appreciate the culture, and even participate in it, but it requires more to actually be accepted by those whose lands you come upon, something that can only be gained by living their since the start of your life.

For example, if I choose to move to Europe tomorrow and live in say, France, I'll never 'be' french. I can gain citizenship, I can learn the language, I can learn the customs, and I can blend into it, but I will never be French, because my core will always be American, if that makes sense.

I understand what you're getting at. However, what often bothers those of us that identify as "multicultural" is the fact that people think they have the ability/right to determine what our "core" is.

I was born and raised in America from age 1-4, then raised in Asia from age 5-14, then educated in America from age 15-present.

At age 4, am I American?
At age 13, am I Asian?
At my current age, am I American at the "core" again?

Absence of a further discussion or personality information, people will simply judge me base on whatever arbitrary bias they have.

"You're American, you can't speak about Asian politics."
"You're a FOB, you wouldn't understand."

*shrug*

 

[Kinyou]

I mean, he does have some weird views, but the general idea isn't wrong. If someone from China has lived for 20 years in Germany, speaks the language, has a passport etc. you'd be kind of an asshole to not consider that person German.

 

[Doc_Drop]

I can certainly empathise with his issue. My brother moved to Taiwan in his late 20s, has learnt the language, has married a Taiwanese local and has been living there for years. If he stays there will he ever not be considered a foreigner? I don't know.

Problem for the fella writing the article is he's probably facing a lack of acceptance is that he's fetishizing the culture, seems oblivious to this, and is likely facing resistance because of this

 

[Ethranes]

I feel it should be said that this isn't a Chinese thing, that person living in canada that has never been to China, doesn't speak Chinese but has yellow skin, will always have to put up with people saying "No but where are you really from"

The issue is that we all do this to different races, it's not a China VS the world thing, as much as people wish it was.

 

[Baseface]

Reading the OP

https://youtu.be/_etl_qkelX0

 

[Magni]

I feel it should be said that this isn't a Chinese thing, that person living in canada that has never been to China, doesn't speak Chinese but has yellow skin, will always have to put up with people saying "No but where are you really from"

The issue is that we all do this to different races, it's not a China VS the world thing, as much as people wish it was.

This happens everywhere, but not to the same degree everywhere.

Very broadly speaking, this is more of an issue in Asia than it is in Europe, and more of an issue in Europe than it is in North America. (and of course, there are differences within these blocks, and within individual countries, etc).

 

[Monocle]

Seems like the author is conflating ethnicity with culture.

Generally speaking though, if you've thoroughly integrated with a culture you weren't born into, I don't see why you shouldn't be accepted as part of it.