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Why aren't evangelical Christians openly blamed for Trump?
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RodanCeros
Member
Trump is, as far as I can tell, the farthest thing from a true Christian. So are many of his supporters. Unfortunately many of them are too uneducated to notice they have been bamboozled and manipulated.
If you want to blame someone, blame the puppetmasters, not the puppets.
If you want to blame someone, blame the puppetmasters, not the puppets.
The ones that vote for Republicans knowingly, they are all going to hell if there's one.
Heaven will be a shit place anyway if it's full of these people, Hell might be a better alternative.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
- The only heaven or hell is the one we make.
- Being an evangelical has nothing to do with what the bible says.
- Evangelicals vote Republican.
Melkezadek
Member
Kind of unrelated, but if I was still a believer in scripture, I don't know how it wouldn't be obvious that he is the/an anti-Christ. There is nothing Christ-like about him and yet many followers are flocking to him. Many will be deceived.
I feel like this has to be discussion among those denominations that preach end times gospels. (Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc) Curious to know the dialogue going on within those churches.
I feel like this has to be discussion among those denominations that preach end times gospels. (Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc) Curious to know the dialogue going on within those churches.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Like 10% of black evangelicals vote for Republicans >_>
The anti-Christ would be way better at pretending to be Christian than Trump is, that's one of the main parts of the anti-Christ myth IIRC. Trump's performance about caring about religion is one of the worst I've seen from any public figure.
Secret Fawful
Member
I openly blame them to their faces.
It's abortion. It's always abortion. I know people who hated Trump but will never, ever, ever vote for someone who supports abortion.
The fact that Republicans can't and won't reverse Roe v Wade but will constantly promise to do so means that evangelicals will always line up behind them because it's a fight that won't ever go away.
The fact that Republicans can't and won't reverse Roe v Wade but will constantly promise to do so means that evangelicals will always line up behind them because it's a fight that won't ever go away.
One word: abortion. It's the single biggest reason why most Catholics vote, so it's not surprising Trump won a majority there.
I was telling people before the election.. if the people in my life that I know (Women age 40+) that call themselves christians have any say... its 100% about abortion. And they would vote for Trump.. no matter how obvious it was he was a piece of shit as a human and would not even consider stepping foot in a church unless he planned to buy it and flatten it one day.
They saw Hillary as a baby killer... and thats it.. thats all that mattered to them. When you consider the supreme court as part of this debate.
They saw Hillary as a baby killer... and thats it.. thats all that mattered to them. When you consider the supreme court as part of this debate.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
The United States is a white/christian-supremacist society. If you want it to be something else, you need to take over its institutions on some other basis.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Lots of white evangelicals voted for Bill Clinton who was the most pro abortion rights president in a real long time back when he was elected.
(It's about Islam).
lol not all christians think the same
it's why there are hundreds of different denominations within Protestantism and loads more "non-denominational" churches
every time a christian disagrees with their church, they run out and make up their own new one
Melkezadek
Member
I'm not sure if that's necessarily true. I feel like it would be too obvious if that were the case. The "Christians" who are in power are dead set on bringing about the end of the world (second coming of Christ) by emboldening Israel. Obviously, people like Netanyahu aren't motivated by these delusions, but for many of these evangelicals, that is their goal. All the while, these "Christians" who are in power are persecuting others abroad and here in the States.
Like I said, I don't believe any of this stuff anymore, but if I still did, this would be driving me nuts, as an end times believer.
Do we know how they voted in the primaries? I just mean of all the fucking options, why him?
tearsintherain
Member
There is one major reason why Trump won among republican voters. Look at the NYT exit polls:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html
"Best description of vote" for Trump voters:
42%: I strongly favor my candidate (53% Hillary)
51%: I dislike the other candidate
There ya go. 51% of Trump voters voted for Trump because they didn't want to vote for Hillary.
Democrats lost because Hillary was their candidate. Can spin it a million different ways but end of the day that is the reason. There are some tweaks dems need to do for 2018 and 2020 but the biggest would be, putting up a candidate more people want to vote for.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html
"Best description of vote" for Trump voters:
42%: I strongly favor my candidate (53% Hillary)
51%: I dislike the other candidate
There ya go. 51% of Trump voters voted for Trump because they didn't want to vote for Hillary.
Democrats lost because Hillary was their candidate. Can spin it a million different ways but end of the day that is the reason. There are some tweaks dems need to do for 2018 and 2020 but the biggest would be, putting up a candidate more people want to vote for.
Melkezadek
Member
I'm curious as well. As someone who grew up in a black evangelical church, the politics were quite different than what is mainstream.
Because she was a women.
Seriously, the Bible lays it out that man serves God.
Woman serve man, and God.
For men to ruled over by women would be against God.
American Christian women for get their freedom comes from the Constitution, not the God of the Bible.
It will take years for GAF to finally admit this but we're simply not read I guess ...
afternoon delight
Member
Enosh
Member
Gordon Shumway
Banned
To be fair, they..ummm..🤔
Typically when people are talking about who to "blame" for something like this, they're not trying to work out, like, who you would first bring up in order to explain the result to a reanimated George Washington. They're not interested in a complete explanation of the outcome. Instead, they're looking to understand why something unexpected happened. Or maybe they're just trying to figure out what could have happened differently in order to achieve a different result. The three of these are very different questions.
Yes, if you want to explain the election result to someone who has zero familiarity with US politics, you've got to explain that there are two political parties. You probably want to give a brief history of why our party coalitions look the way they do, going back in some detail to at least the Civil Rights Movement. The Religious Right and its move from defending racial segregation on religious freedom grounds to defending anti-LGBT discrimination and opposing abortion on religious freedom grounds is going to be a very important part of this story. And while not that many people today are very familiar with the history here, everyone basically knows that white evangelical Christians tend to be hypocritical dicks. Everyone already expected them to vote for Trump despite their problems with Bill Clinton, etc. Honestly, what most people probably should be more aware of is that there are significant numbers of white evangelical Christians who aren't dicks.
Because everyone already expected them to vote for Trump, they're not an interesting part of an explanation for Trump. If I look out my second-floor window and see you walking below, and then I drop a baseball on your head, you might ask: "Why?" You are not looking for an explanation involving gravity, even though in some sense that's the most important thing going on.
So people might focus instead on voters that they didn't expect to vote for Trump. This is an explanation aimed at filling the gaps in our understanding. We knew he'd get 40% of the vote because of groups like white evangelicals, but what actually put Trump over the top?
Or they focus on people who they feel should have known better, like third party voters or people who stayed home or whatever. The idea here is more that you expect to be opposed by your enemies, but not by people who are on your side. If you're fighting a war and the enemy succeeds in winning a big battle because some of your soldiers who were supposed to be there felt like taking a nap instead, you're going to blame those soldiers. You're going to be angrier at them than at the enemy.
Yes, if you want to explain the election result to someone who has zero familiarity with US politics, you've got to explain that there are two political parties. You probably want to give a brief history of why our party coalitions look the way they do, going back in some detail to at least the Civil Rights Movement. The Religious Right and its move from defending racial segregation on religious freedom grounds to defending anti-LGBT discrimination and opposing abortion on religious freedom grounds is going to be a very important part of this story. And while not that many people today are very familiar with the history here, everyone basically knows that white evangelical Christians tend to be hypocritical dicks. Everyone already expected them to vote for Trump despite their problems with Bill Clinton, etc. Honestly, what most people probably should be more aware of is that there are significant numbers of white evangelical Christians who aren't dicks.
Because everyone already expected them to vote for Trump, they're not an interesting part of an explanation for Trump. If I look out my second-floor window and see you walking below, and then I drop a baseball on your head, you might ask: "Why?" You are not looking for an explanation involving gravity, even though in some sense that's the most important thing going on.
So people might focus instead on voters that they didn't expect to vote for Trump. This is an explanation aimed at filling the gaps in our understanding. We knew he'd get 40% of the vote because of groups like white evangelicals, but what actually put Trump over the top?
Or they focus on people who they feel should have known better, like third party voters or people who stayed home or whatever. The idea here is more that you expect to be opposed by your enemies, but not by people who are on your side. If you're fighting a war and the enemy succeeds in winning a big battle because some of your soldiers who were supposed to be there felt like taking a nap instead, you're going to blame those soldiers. You're going to be angrier at them than at the enemy.
univariate
Banned
Yeah those damn Mormons and Amish are definitely extremists!
The narcissism in the answer is breathtaking. Donald is his own god.
Secret Fawful
Member
Most of the Christian fathers I've ever met or known have been overwhelmingly controlling and abusive toward their wives, daughters, and other people's wives and daughters for "disobeying God's law". Christianity hates women.
And many of those same abused women, even after liberating themselves from those men, still voted for Trump or believe in toxic bullshit. Christianity makes women hate themselves.
Christianity sucks.
God Dayumm
Banned
Christians have always been blamed for voting republican, and rightly so. All their anti-abortion, anti-LGBT pandering is because that is exactly what Christian fundamentalists want from the party.
It's just that Nazi is the catch word nowadays, so evangelicals have taken a break from the spotlight. But yes, they are still to blame, and they don't actually care about the beliefs of their politicians as long as they are republicans. That is called dogma and it manifests in all aspects of their lives, not just religion.
It's just that Nazi is the catch word nowadays, so evangelicals have taken a break from the spotlight. But yes, they are still to blame, and they don't actually care about the beliefs of their politicians as long as they are republicans. That is called dogma and it manifests in all aspects of their lives, not just religion.
I mean sure, put the blame where you see it, but we're all responsible for this in my eyes. He's a product of the culture we've built and we can play the blame game all we want, but what matters right now are those that will resist and those that won't. And yeah I'm a Christian, no I didn't vote for him, yes there's probably more I could have done in the long run to keep him out of office, but I too felt helpless as it was happening and I was pretty outspoken about it.
Do you have a lot of "friends" that hate you? I mean I can see why, but I'm just curious.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
So many good insights in this post. Awesome stuff.
What's so bizarre though is that the liberals looking to blame evangelicals or third parties or apathetic voters or whatever is that they're so assured they have the correct political analysis. For starters, they don't consider the point you made about evangelicals. But they're also not able to see actual, legitimate opposition outside of that right-wing framework. They can't imagine that there's a faction to their left, for example that sees *them* as the enemy.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
Huh? I blame them all the time. They aren't really all that different from "radical Islam".
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
He isn't religious, so he doesn't get associated with them.
Actually people didn't expect that, at least not the the degree of support he received. People actually expected his support from evangelicals to be lower, at least in comparison to more "moral" presidential candidates (i.e. all the other R candidates).
A reduced turnout would at least indicate some of these people had a modicum of the principles they claimed to have.
Melkezadek
Member
Very much like Islamists. A marriage of politics and fundamentalism.
Nastrodamous
Member
because white people are never responsible for their actions. Its somebody elses fault.
It was a joke. I do have Christian friends but not the type I would categorize as evangelicals.
Yep.
Blaming people who were going to vote for the man because he wears an R on his chest isn't the issue. The issue is what Dems can do to to change peoples ways of thinking. Blaming people is probably not the route you want to take
First off, what planet are you living on? They're blamed all the time.
Secondly, the reason the white people thing is brought up so often is because it's actually worth talking about. Evangelicals voted Trump because of course they did. They're basically algorithms: in goes information, filter it through their bullshit, and out pops an answer. They have to vote republican because pro-life, or traditional marriage, or religious (christian) freedom or whatever else justification they use.
But 'White People' aren't some kind of organisation. They're don't share anything beyond skin pigments. A white person can be anything they want, and the data shows that what many want is Trump. So it's worth looking at why that is. A persons skin colour should not affect their politics, and so when it does it's worth asking why (although the reasons in this case are pretty damn obvious).
Secondly, the reason the white people thing is brought up so often is because it's actually worth talking about. Evangelicals voted Trump because of course they did. They're basically algorithms: in goes information, filter it through their bullshit, and out pops an answer. They have to vote republican because pro-life, or traditional marriage, or religious (christian) freedom or whatever else justification they use.
But 'White People' aren't some kind of organisation. They're don't share anything beyond skin pigments. A white person can be anything they want, and the data shows that what many want is Trump. So it's worth looking at why that is. A persons skin colour should not affect their politics, and so when it does it's worth asking why (although the reasons in this case are pretty damn obvious).
Turnip Truck
Member
I appreciate you making this clarifying statement. As a white, politically moderate, deeply devoted Christian male who fully supported and voted for Hillary Clinton, minored in biology with a heavy concentration in genetics and evolution, loves physics, majored in Asian studies with a genuine appreciation for the scholars of the Islamic world who kept knowledge alive during the European dark ages, and who happily engages with people of other cultures, languages and faiths, I find these stereotypes applied across the board to Christians to be unfortunate. Unfortunately, we do seem to live in a world where stereotypes are applied with a broad brush.
Just as not every Muslim is not a terrorist, not every Christian is uneducated, anti-science, or xenophobic.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
So much for the stereotype of jewish people being greedy when not voting for the guy that is essentially saying "I'mma remove all regulations and taxes so you can become filthy rich".
Nobody expected that though because, as Gotchaye said, evangelical Christians are a known factor. Everybody already knows they're hypocrites who will vote for anyone who says he'll get rid of abortion.
I think most evangelicals and Christians in general did not want trump, but felt it was the lesser evil or still in their better interest overall than Hillary. I suspect most evangelicals would have preferred a Cruz or Carson ticket. Also Pence as VP, who does seem genuine in his faith, went a long way in helping them swallow the bitter trump pill.
In the primary, yes, and IIRC the white evangelical vote was discussed a lot during the primary. I took the question to be about blame for the outcome of the general election. I mean, sure, he wouldn't have won the general election if he hadn't won the primary, but this is again one of those things that everyone already knows.
hammysaurusrex
Member
They are blamed, but I think I understand where you're coming from -
The reason they don't get quite the same level of attention is because they are already a known quantity. They cannot be convinced to vote in a way that promotes a free and open society. They wanted the government to become a Christian Taliban and they got what they wanted.
People tend to focus more on the voter who voted for Trump because they thought he was going to fix corruption or "shake things up" - these voters, though they showed profoundly poor judgment and reasoning, are a group that can most likely be shown the error of the ways since Trump's decisions have a high probability of impacting their lives negatively in a demonstrable manner. So that's where critics of the administration are going to frame the issue.
In contrast, you aren't going to convince a Christian that voted for Trump to see the irony of electing what may be unequivocally the least Christ-like figure in politics imaginable. They did not reason themselves into this position, and they will not be reasoned out.
The reason they don't get quite the same level of attention is because they are already a known quantity. They cannot be convinced to vote in a way that promotes a free and open society. They wanted the government to become a Christian Taliban and they got what they wanted.
People tend to focus more on the voter who voted for Trump because they thought he was going to fix corruption or "shake things up" - these voters, though they showed profoundly poor judgment and reasoning, are a group that can most likely be shown the error of the ways since Trump's decisions have a high probability of impacting their lives negatively in a demonstrable manner. So that's where critics of the administration are going to frame the issue.
In contrast, you aren't going to convince a Christian that voted for Trump to see the irony of electing what may be unequivocally the least Christ-like figure in politics imaginable. They did not reason themselves into this position, and they will not be reasoned out.
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