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Why Do People Still Assume Games Aren't Mainstream?

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
After reading a few recent threads here and this month's "Final Word" in EGM, I find it fascinating that the prevailing assumption among most gamers (or at least gamers who discuss gaming) is that games aren't mainstream. The debate appears to still be fixated on how to facilitate games' entry into the mainstream (e.g., Revolution controller, games aimed at women, etc.), but I'd like to shift the discussion a step past that and argue that games are very clearly in the mainstream, and an increasingly prevalent (and dominant) form of entertainment in our society on the same level as sports, Hollywood movies, pop music etc. (I'd also argue that the fact that the ways in which each of these are mainstream differ does not mean that they aren't mainstream). I feel like I'm still in 1992 reading about how the new Barbie titles are going to make games burst into the mainstream.

Some basic facts and their significance (I'm focusing on the U.S. since it's easiest for me to pull that data, but suffice it to say most of my points would apply to nearly any developed country):

- The average age of gamers is 29, and even traditional media sources are recognizing not only that games "aren't just for kids anymore!" but that the primary audience for games is now people in their 20's and 30's. I'm 25 and that may inform my intuition that a big reason for the increasing average age of gamers is that those of us who grew up with the NES, SNES, and Genesis as part of our everyday lives have taken our entertainment preferences into adulthood and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Simply put, games have always been "mainstream" for us in the sense that they've always been a major influence in our environments (school, etc.).

- 248 million games were sold in 2004. Clearly, numbers-wise, the games industry is gargantuan. But the numbers really just support the notion that games are a big part of the majority of households in the U.S. According to the ESA, 75%(!) of American heads of households play computer and video games. That number seems a bit high to me, but not exorbitantly so. For literally millions of people, the release of Madden is almost a national holiday. Relating back to the first point, as the NES Generation starts raising more and more children, those kids will be exposed to games and games will likely increase in influence even more. Most of us just played games of our own volition and bugged our parents to get us a couple for our birthdays, etc., which they grudgingly did, but that won't be the case (or at least the rule) for long, if it even still is.

-43% of gamers are women. Now that figure does seem exorbitant. I would put the figure at least twenty points lower. In fact, I'm even willing to admit that the vast majority of gamers are men, but still argue that that mere fact is not dispositive on the issue of whether games are mainstream. This argument is probably the most common one brought up in the "games aren't mainstream" discussions. NFL statistics say that around 40% of the leagues fans are women, and I will take that similarly as bullshit, but even assuming, say, 5% of NFL fans are women (probably low), does that mean that the NFL isn't mainstream? You'd be hard-pressed to find three or four more "mainstream" areas of culture than professional sports. That doesn't mean that game publishers or industry critics should just pack it up and concede that games are for the boys. Unlike the NFL and most professional sports which have more inherent appeal to men, games, like books, music, and movies, have the ability to appeal to men and women alike and I hope that publishers make increased efforts to reach out to that audience (caveat: in non-patronizing/lame ways). Still, even conceding that games are as male-centered as pro football (they're not), they're still mainstream.

-Yes, there are "hardcore" gamers. It seems that most people assuming that games fall outside of the mainstream fixate on the notion that there are so many people (like most people on GA) who are hardcore gamers and that the "mainstream" will never be able to accept such hardcore nerdish lunacy. But the fact that there are hardcore gamers doesn't mean that games aren't mainstream. For every person who knows every combo in every SNK/Capcom fighting game released, there are a hundred others who buy Burnout, Halo, or whatever looks cool on the shelf and play it maybe a few hours a month. There are also "hardcore" music fans who only listen to music most people have never even heard of in their lives, and "harcore" film buffs who have memorized the scripts of hundreds of movies, but no one would argue that either industry falls outside of the mainstream as a result; the argument seems preposterous.

Can games become more mainstream? Of course, but so can every other industry everyone presumes to already be mainstream. Particularly in the case of appealing to women, there is a lot of ground still to be made up, but let's stop pretending that games are still niche as that was a good discussion 15 years ago, but now we're well past that point.
 
I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore.

I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore.


I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore.
 
Gaming became mainstream with the Playstation One. If you disagree, well...I really don't know what to say. Keep going on thinking you are special for playing video games I suppose.
 
Games are mainstream. I wish they weren't, then probably we wouldn't get games like 50 cent bulletproof.
 
Tony HoTT said:
I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore. I still don't understand why people don't think games are mainstream. I mean there are around and stuff and people like to play them they are just different and not hardcore.

Next time, maybe you should try to read your sentence before hitting Ctrl+C a bunch of times.
 
AstroLad said:
Next time, maybe you should try to read your sentence before hitting Ctrl+C a bunch of times.
:lol

As for the original topic... because they're "videogames". They won't be really mainstream until the older population of people die off (ie those in "charge") and we become the old fogies.

GAF members in charge... Jesus..
 
Playing games has definitly gone mainstream, but there are a variety of games and game types, that, just like movies, range from mainstream to niche. For instance, Madden Football is clearly mainstream, with tons of people playing it who never play another game all year. On the opposite end is something like Katamari Damacy which is a blast to play, but is completely off the radar for most gamers.

I believe we'll continue to see game playing become more and more mainstream, lets just hope that has it does so, that we don't lose some of those fun little niche titles that we all enjoy so much, and that continue to innovate.
 
raYne said:
:lol

As for the original topic... because they're "videogames". They won't be really mainstream until the older population of people die off (ie those in "charge") and we become the old fogies.

GAF members in charge... Jesus..

I've never heard the age argument before but it's an interesting angle. Do old people listen to pop music? Almost by definition they don't, but clearly 98 Degrees is mainstream (yes!). I do agree though that as the influence of the pre-Nintendo/Atari generation wanes games will become even more influential.
 
siege said:
Gaming became mainstream with the Playstation One. If you disagree, well...I really don't know what to say. Keep going on thinking you are special for playing video games I suppose.

Gaming became mainstream with Pong.
 
You never heard the "you don't understand 'cause you're old" or the "they never had this stuff when you were growing up" arguments before?

They're used to explain everything: Music, style, games, electronics etc
 
raYne said:
You never heard the "you don't understand 'cause you're old" or the "they never had this stuff when you were growing up" arguments before?

They're used to explain everything: Music, style, games, electronics etc

No, I was specifically referring to the argument that games aren't mainstream because old people don't like them, just general gripes about "you crazy kids," yes. ;)
 
They just arent seen as socially acceptable yet. They are seen as 'geeky' hobbies, or childest, by most females over the age of 21.
 
My cousin wants a GBA for Christmas, not s SP, not a Micro just the original one as thatÂ’s all he knows. My other cousin want a PS2 to replace a broken one, he does not know the slim line exists. One is 13 the other 9 there is no mainstream gamers there is just mainstream consumers.
 
Well alot of people need gaming to be a niche industry to support their argument that gaming as a whole could collapse at any moment unless a certain company comes out and saves us all.

And because if gaming were mainstream and an accepted form of entertainment that millions enjoy immensely, that would mean that developers are still creating great games along with the crap ones just like always, which as we have learned from this board is incorrect. Because if this board has taught us anything it's that the last great game was created in '91.

Is what we need is for some company to come out with a system that will take gaming to the masses and get all the women and senior citizens playing. But who could do such a thing?
 
Those figures include stuff like Popcap and yahoo parlor games, though. That's where they get the 43% female number.
 
Games are mainstream in the same way pornography is mainstream. It's a multibillion dollar industry, but no one talks about it much.
 
shuri said:
They just arent seen as socially acceptable yet. They are seen as 'geeky' hobbies, or childest, by most females over the age of 21.

See, I don't understand why "most females over the age of 21" are the only group that can determine whether something has achieved mainstream acceptance. I also don't think that it's necessarily true anymore; I think (and this is all totally anecdotal of course) that most women in their 20s now just associate games with something their bfs or brothers play, and waste way too much time on, especially around Madden release time, just like how most of them probably view NFL football. Just think that most womens' bfs play games, and very few of those are particularly "geeky" or obsessed with gaming. Rather, they're just regular guys who like to play sports and fighting games with their buddies. I think your observation was historically true, and I wouldn't claim that it's totally vanished, but it's much less prevalent now.
 
AstroLad said:
Great catch. I'm glad I didn't copy that sentence 30 times. That would have been embarassing.

I expect you to point out every spelling error in everyone's post from now on. You gotta be consistent with this shit.

What should be embarassing is posting a retarded fuckin essay nobody gives a shit about. You should be writing about why gamers, publishers, and developers think there should be more growth in the industry.

P.S.

You sound like you need a wedgie.
 
Any1 said:
Well alot of people need gaming to be a niche industry to support their argument that gaming as a whole could collapse at any moment unless a certain company comes out and saves us all.

And because if gaming were mainstream and an accepted form of entertainment that millions enjoy immensely, that would mean that developers are still creating great games along with the crap ones just like always, which as we have learned from this board is incorrect. Because if this board has taught us anything it's that the last great game was created in '91.

Is what we need is for some company to come out with a system that will take gaming to the masses and get all the women and senior citizens playing. But who could do such a thing?

Definitely. "Games aren't mainstream" is often just support for:

- Games need a savior (someone who will bring gaming from its dark corners into the elusive "mainstream").

- Game controls are too hard (games aren't mainstream because no one can figure out how to use L2 so only hardcore freaks can play games).

- Games need to be more original, this branching out to reach more gamers (I actually agree with this, but I don't think that means that games aren't mainstream).

Tony HoTT said:
I expect you to point out every spelling error in everyone's post from now on. You gotta be consistent with this shit.

What should be embarassing is posting a retarded fuckin essay nobody gives a shit about. You should be writing about why gamers, publishers, and developers think there should be more growth in the industry.

P.S.

You sound like you need a wedgie.

I'll just stick to my current practice and point out errors whenever someone posts like a fucking idiot who thinks he's funny by copying shit a hundred times and adding nothing to a thread, but thanks for the advice.

If it's true that "no one gives a shit" then "no one" would be posting here discussing the issue. If you don't give shit, then don't post in here, no one asked you too, and though we'll miss your great insights, we'll survive..

P.S.

I take back the thing about you just thinking you're funny, you really are very funny.

Sincerely,


AstroLad
Enclosures
 
Hmm. Would you say comics or "graphic novels" are mainstream?
 
Servizio said:
Hmm. Would you say comics or "graphic novels" are mainstream?

Funny you should mention that, as I've read a few articles saying that games are at a crossroads similar to where comics were 10-15 years ago, specifically noting that they don't want games to go in the direction of comics. I don't really know much about how pervasive comics are (which I suppose supports the argument that they're not very pervasive), but it does seem like they're much more niche than video games. Walk through a dorm, and you'll find that almost every room has a console, but I highly doubt the reach of comics is as broad, so just off the top of my head I would probably say "no," though I'm sure someone could make a decent argument for why they are mainstream (especially with the recent popularity of superhero movies), though then we'd really have to nail down what "mainstream" specifically means, which I freely admit I didn't do in my original post.
 
AstroLad said:
then we'd really have to nail down what "mainstream" specifically means, which I freely admit I didn't do in my original post.
So this entire time we've been talking about absolutely nothing?

Are you related to Dr. Gakman?
 
AstroLad said:
Next time, maybe you should try to read your sentence before hitting Ctrl+C a bunch of times.


Ctrl+C? What the hell does that do?




*presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v**presses Ctrl+v*....
 
Tony HoTT said:
So this entire time we've been talking about absolutely nothing?

Are you related to Dr. Gakman?

Wow, where'd the sudden interest in the debate come from? It's heartening.

No, I didn't go into the semantics in my first post because I didn't feel it was necessary (I don't feel video games are a "close" case where we need to analyze the gray areas of the definition, like comics, for example) and I didn't want you to cry even more about how my post is an "essay."

Are there any other minor points related to this issue that you'd like to see me cover now that you apparently have such an interest?
 
AstroLad said:
Next time, maybe you should try to read your sentence before hitting Ctrl+C a bunch of times.

I believe the poster hit ctrl+c twice, and ctrl+v a bunch of times.

Ctrl+c on the one sentence. Then ctrl+v a few times.
Then ctrl+c on the paragraph, then ctrl+v a couple more times.

Anyway

Games are mainstream.
I too, wish they weren't.

I find the majority of the industry to be pure crap now.

I sure as hell will be playing old nes and snes games on revolution much more than I'll be playing "next gen" games on any of the next gen platforms.
 
AstroLad said:
Great catch. I'm glad I didn't copy that sentence 30 times. That would have been embarassing.
waffle.gif
:lol :lol :lol
 
They aren't mainstream. Many people will get annoyed if you start playing a game while they are over your house. Its not something that everyone enjoys such as watching tv or listening to the radio.
 
Gahiggidy said:
They aren't mainstream. Many people will get annoyed if you start playing a game while they are over your house. Its not something that everyone enjoys such as watching tv or listening to the radio.

I don't quite understand what the criterion is here. That "everyone" enjoys it? Clearly there are tons(certainly "many") of people that hate pop music and TV, and that will look at you with death stares if you come over to their houses, plop down on the couch, and turn on a football game. Does that mean that those things aren't mainstream?

I do appreciate that, e.g., TV may have broader appeal, but if something has to be as broadly popular as TV to be considered "mainstream," then almost nothing is mainstream (certainly some things nearly everyone would agree to be mainstream wouldn't meet that test). I agree with the point you seem to be making that something has to have relatively pervasive popularity (mmm...alliteralicious) but I don't think we can use the "do many people get annoyed?" test to make that assessment. If anything, things that are mainstream annoy people more because they're everywhere. I think a reasonable test is just look at the numbers- average age, sales, % of homes with consoles, etc. and all those seem to support video games-as-mainstream.
 
AstroLad said:
I don't quite understand what the criterion is here.
Again, for the same reason pornography, another multibillion dollar industry, isn't considered mainstream.

You may have a large collection, and enjoy it immensely, but that doesn't mean you want others to know you like it.
 
SKOPE said:
Again, for the same reason pornography, another multibillion dollar industry, isn't considered mainstream.

You may have a large collection, and enjoy it immensely, but that doesn't mean you want others to know you like it.

Good try on the analogy, but it's overreaching a bit (unless you're really insecure about gaming). Guys always talk about how they're about to kick someone's ass in Madden or Soul Calibur or some other multi-million-selling phenomenon without any of the sort of shame or secrecy with which they would discuss, say, how they're gonna jerk off to porn later that day (well, they may discuss the latter ironically).

Maybe some people are embarassed by having a really large game collection (I've only got about 30 games with me here, though I wouldn't really care if it was 300 unless they were all 3DO titles or something) or being obsessed with gaming, but again this is conflating the discussion of whether gaming is mainstream with whether hardcore gaming is accepted by the mainstream. I think the former is true while the latter isn't.

I don't discount your point completely, there may still be some stigma left to video games, particularly in certain contexts. For example, I wouldn't tell the partner at a law firm that I kick ass at Winning Eleven, but I probably wouldn't tell him about the great show I watched on Comedy Central last night either. Yet I think in most social situations, it's relatively acceptable (or at least not shameful) to discuss, e.g., kicking someone's ass in Tekken. It may not be particularly commonplace, and I certainly can't say I do it that often, but then again there are tons of other mainstream things I don't really bring up in most social situations. The shame you allude to refers to "hardcore" behavior, which people probably do find "nerdy," but they'd probably (justifiably) find that someone with similarly obsessive behavior relating to music or movies is also "nerdy" or "weird," so I don't think it necessarily proves the point of games not being mainstream, but again it's a highly contextual and personal thing and maybe you've had experiences that would justify that conclusion that I just haven't had.
 
Gahiggidy said:
They aren't mainstream. Many people will get annoyed if you start playing a game while they are over your house. Its not something that everyone enjoys such as watching tv or listening to the radio.


Nah, this doesn't mean it's not mainstream but more that there is still very bad prejudices against gamers that's all.
 
The way I see it, videogames have mainstream *awareness*. People now generally are aware that games are here, another common form of entertanment like television and movies, and that adults (at least, yound adults) play them. A small number of people who are the sort to stay locked into narrow mindframes still see them as children's toys, but they're now the minority.

The trick is that games are not mainstream *as an activity*. What Nintendo is claiming with the Revolution stuff, essentially, is the YES everybody knows about videogames now... but what do they know about games exactly? They "know" that videogames are esoteric, unfriendly interactive things that are for teens and younger geeky people who are obsessed with all that computer-like stuff and can make it work.

Almost everybody from 8 to 80 feels comfortable watching movies, listening to music, whatever; the exact style may vary due to taste and age ranges but the basic thing is universal. Whether they're on to something or not, Nintendo (for example) is pondering how to bridge the gap between videogames and more universal forms of entertainment.
 
Videogames in general are mainstream. That is, certain genres of videogames have mainstream acceptance. Your sports games, your gtas, your halos etc. Which is why the hardcore nerds on this board like to treat anyone who enjoys those games like bastard retarded stepchildren.

But some stuff will pretty much always be considered nerdy- it's really content, not a general blanket statement of "videogames are mainstream". Some are, some aren't. Madden is, Katamari Damacy isn't. GTA is, Animal Crossing isn't. Halo is, ICO isn't.
 
Kaijima said:
The way I see it, videogames have mainstream *awareness*. People now generally are aware that games are here, another common form of entertanment like television and movies, and that adults (at least, yound adults) play them. A small number of people who are the sort to stay locked into narrow mindframes still see them as children's toys, but they're now the minority.

The trick is that games are not mainstream *as an activity*. What Nintendo is claiming with the Revolution stuff, essentially, is the YES everybody knows about videogames now... but what do they know about games exactly? They "know" that videogames are esoteric, unfriendly interactive things that are for teens and younger geeky people who are obsessed with all that computer-like stuff and can make it work.

Almost everybody from 8 to 80 feels comfortable watching movies, listening to music, whatever; the exact style may vary due to taste and age ranges but the basic thing is universal. Whether they're on to something or not, Nintendo (for example) is pondering how to bridge the gap between videogames and more universal forms of entertainment.

I just don't think that gap exists, not everyone feels comfortable watching sports, and probably fewer people feel comfortable playing sports, but they're still both unquestionably mainstream. Still, good point.
 
AstroLad said:
Good try on the analogy, but it's overreaching a bit (unless you're really insecure about gaming). Guys always talk about how they're about to kick someone's ass in Madden or Soul Calibur or some other multi-million-selling phenomenon without any of the sort of shame or secrecy with which they would discuss, say, how they're gonna jerk off to porn later that day (well, they may discuss the latter ironically).
Have you seen the way many video game characters are dressed these days? Heck, Ivy and Voldo from the Soul Calibur series look like they're involved in creepy alternative lifestyles.

Seriously, the stigma is not nearly as strong, but it is there. Video games are still seen by many as things for kids and nerds who live with their parents.
 
Kaijima said:
The way I see it, videogames have mainstream *awareness*. People now generally are aware that games are here, another common form of entertanment like television and movies, and that adults (at least, yound adults) play them. A small number of people who are the sort to stay locked into narrow mindframes still see them as children's toys, but they're now the minority.

The trick is that games are not mainstream *as an activity*. What Nintendo is claiming with the Revolution stuff, essentially, is the YES everybody knows about videogames now... but what do they know about games exactly? They "know" that videogames are esoteric, unfriendly interactive things that are for teens and younger geeky people who are obsessed with all that computer-like stuff and can make it work.

Almost everybody from 8 to 80 feels comfortable watching movies, listening to music, whatever; the exact style may vary due to taste and age ranges but the basic thing is universal. Whether they're on to something or not, Nintendo (for example) is pondering how to bridge the gap between videogames and more universal forms of entertainment.
I have to agree with this. imho the impact of games in our society is quite limited, it has nowhere near the same impact or appeal as movies, television, music or other "mainstream" forms of entertainment.
 
The annual SSB:M tournament in my household, which includes myself (20 years old) my father (51) my brother (27) and brother-in-law (30), says games are mainstream. My 23 year old sister loves Wario Ware and managed to systematically beat all my records for crying out loud. My mom still has me plug in the NES so she can play Kid Icarus and can still own me in Tetris on her Palm Pilot. I don't have a single friend who doesn't own a gaming console or games on their PC. Halo night at my house isn't terribly uncommon and spans from 16 year olds still in high school to my 51 year old attorney father. Basically, the majority of people I know or am related to game, and I daresay we're all pretty average. So yeah, gaming is mainstream.

Now, I'm also of a different breed than my family and many of my friends in that I'll sit around playing games for hours on end, by myself. I'm not the hardcorest of gamers, but it's been something I've done for the past 17 years or so, and I'm not quitting any time soon.
 
Until as many people play games as watch movies, the medium WILL NEVER BE mainstream.

It'sa niche medium. The niche has just shifted demographics a bit. And now it's purportedly leveling off in America, growing in Europe, and shrinking in Japan.

There's very little you can point to about the gaming industry to call it "mainstream" in any traditional sense of the world. Interactive entertainment is anything but a pervasive medium.
 
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