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[KeithMars]

So you only play games where you are "immortal" and can't "lose" against the AI??

 

[clarky]

The difference is that most people only play one or two GaaS games for a very long time, regardless of how much publishers release. Peoples time is limited, we can't keep up with dailys in dozens of service games.
So for every success like Ark Raiders, there are many failures, because the market can only support a limited number of GaaS games at the time.

Isn't this exactly the same for single player titles?

For every exp33 there are dozens of failures.

 

[Fabieter]

This leads to a super competitive market that rewards the strong. The only way to thrive is by doing something different than your competitors. See: ARC Raiders.

The other market represents that of a fruit fly. You release, absorb your month or two of good sales, then you enter the desert again building the next game. It's anti competitive because your market is constantly thirsty for their next hit.

Yeah true and failed games costing hundreds of millions without any return at all. The "sp games are dead" people always claim the roi sucks for non gaas games but dont mention that only a handful of gaas games succeed like big times.

Nobody likes to believe they're the victim of conditioning, but we've absolutely been conditioned to ignore the fundamental flaw of passive story in videogames.

So do you think mp games are believable?

We accept weird design decisions all around.

Isn't this exactly the same for single player titles?

How so?

 

[clarky]

Yeah true and failed games costing hundreds of millions without any return at all. The "sp games are dead" people always claim the roi sucks for non gaas games but dont mention that only a handful of gaas games succeed like big times.




So do you think mp games are believable?

We accept weird design decisions all around.



How so?

Sorry i edited.

For every Every exp33 there are dozens of failures.

 

[Fabieter]

Sorry i edited.

For every Every exp33 there are dozens of failures.

Ofc there is also sp failing but i mostly see the argument that sp games aint worth it anymore which is weird when most service games fail too. We have deeper problems in the industry.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Yeah true and failed games costing hundreds of millions without any return at all. The "sp games are dead" people always claim the roi sucks for non gaas games but dont mention that only a handful of gaas games succeed like big times.

I have no problem admitting that GAAS is riskier. But the presence of risk has still led to absurd growth over the last 10 years.

Safety has lead to stagnation and recession in story based single player.

GAAS will continue to grow as it marures away from competitive "sports" design into "heroes journey", environmental design.

So do you think mp games are believable?

They connect to the player in a more direct, believable way.

We are the avatar in multi-player.
In story based games we are only sometimes the avatar.

 

[clarky]

Ofc there is also sp failing but i mostly see the argument that sp games aint worth it anymore which is weird when most service games fail too. We have deeper problems in the industry.

Same argument across the industry like you say. You can see why the publishers gamble on gaas though the ROI is far larger than traditional games.

SP games aren't failing but the cost a hell of a lot more to produce than they used to.

 

[Fabieter]

have no problem admitting that GAAS is riskier. But the presence of risk has still led to absurd growth over the last 10 years.

Safety has lead to stagnation and recession in story based single player.

GAAS will continue to grow as it marures away from competitive "sports" design into "heroes journey", environmental design.

Yeah i bet solo players will love to play more and more pvpve games with tons of fetch quest in the future.

Its growing because they find more and more waya to rip people off.

They connect to the player in a more direct, believable way.

We are the avatar in multi-player.
In story based games we are only sometimes the avatar.

What? I never felt connected to any service game avatar besides maybe stuff like ff14 which i mostly played for the story .

clarky like you said there is room for both. I play service games myself( they should all be f2p though)

But there's always this implication between the lines that single-player games are a thing of the past, and that publishers should stop investing in them, which is strange. Service game fans seem to believe that all players will eventually become live service players, but that simply isn't going to happen.

 

[clarky]

Its growing because they find more and more waya to rip people off.

Again same can be said across the industry. MTX in Assassin's Creed, £70 games etc etc.

Keep mentioning it but Arc Raiders is £40 and I've not spent a penny in game and had the best time since Halo CE. Zero grind.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Yeah i bet solo players will love to play more and more pvpve games with tons of fetch quest in the future.

Its growing because they find more and more waya to rip people off.

Partly, but it's also growing in large part because the gameplay loops are appealing to a wider and wider audience. I've never seen so many single player gamers try, and love, a multi-player game like ARC Raiders in my life. PvP design that caters to PvE is the next great frontier in gaming.

The era of Street Fighter, Unreal Tournament, and StarCraft is over.

What? I never felt connected to any service game avatar besides maybe stuff like ff14 which i mostly played for the story .

You are not representative of the market. If these two models are competing with one another, then they're fighting over the border areas.

Most gamers are not 100% sp / mp and 0% sp / mp. Most gamers have enjoyed both game types.

 

[Paasei]

How is coop in dungeons and RAIDs in WoW all about making each others experiences as annoying as possible???

Coop is different category. If you play online but only with a select bunch of people, there's no social aspect in a MMO.

What is social about a dungeon where nobody says a word to each other? If something goes wrong nothing is said and someone just instantly leaves the group.

Inside your own guild is all fun and games, but then you'd have to exclusively be playing with them.

90+% of WoW content, for example, can be played alone.

Might as well not play an online game then. Another reason why the social aspect non existent

 

[RickMasters]

People are idiots. I tried that Microsoft team based game bleeding edge and nobody did the objective. Everyone just wants pvp. Basically the only multiplayer worth a shit is when the only objective is to get kills. Nobody wants to actually do objectives.

Also just being able to pick up and play with quick resume anytime for single player is goat

I completely agree. Every once in a while you cross paths with some smart players who are objective focused but most of the time it's just headless chickens running around getting shot.

 

[Fabieter]

Again same can be said across the industry. MTX in Assassin's Creed, £70 games etc etc.

Keep mentioning it but Arc Raiders is £40 and I've not spent a penny in game and had the best time since Halo CE. Zero grind.

Both anecdotal but there is no arguing that service games are way worse with ripping their players off.

I have also tried ark raiders and while the gameplay is engaging, i fucking hate those fetch quests.

Partly, but it's also growing in large part because the gameplay loops are appealing to a wider and wider audience. I've never seen so many single player gamers try, and love, a multi-player game like ARC Raiders in my life. PvP design that caters to PvE is the next great frontier in gaming.

The era of Street Fighter, Unreal Tournament, and StarCraft is over.

Our group tried it also, there was alot of hype. Its an okay game and definitely the last extraction game we played.

You are not representative of the market. If these two models are competing with one another, then they're fighting over the border areas.

Most gamers are not 100% sp / mp and 0% sp / mp. Most gamers have enjoyed both game types.

Yeah i dont play 100% sp either. Its a weird cluture fight for some people.
I just said thats its weird to feel more connected to a multiplayer avatar. I doubt you have numbers which say people play it for that reason.

 

[clarky]

Yeah i bet solo players will love to play more and more pvpve games with tons of fetch quest in the future.

Its growing because they find more and more waya to rip people off.




What? I never felt connected to any service game avatar besides maybe stuff like ff14 which i mostly played for the story .

clarky like you said there is room for both. I play service games myself( they should all be f2p though)

But there's always this implication between the lines that single-player games are a thing of the past, and that publishers should stop investing in them, which is strange. Service game fans seem to believe that all players will eventually become live service players, but that simply isn't going to happen.

Theres only one person that says that and its you know who.

Same can be said on the other side of the coin though for the folks who claim all GAAS and MP games are trash. Theres room for all types of games.

 

[Fabieter]

Theres only one person that says that and its you know who.

Same can be said on the other side of the coin though for the folks who claim all GAAS and MP games are trash. Theres room for all types of games.

I preferred gen 7 for this reason you bought a package of both.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Might as well not play an online game then.

Eh?? What if I just want to do non group quests and leveling??

 

[DaciaJC]

Mods.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Both anecdotal but there is no arguing that service games are way worse with ripping their players off.

I'd argue charging 70 dollars up front and having a 30% completion rate for a 30 hour game is an exponentially worse rip off.

I have also tried ark raiders and while the gameplay is engaging, i fucking hate those fetch quests.

Again, growth is about moving borders, not about capturing the capital overnight. Just because you don't like ARC Raiders doesn't mean it isn't inspiring a wave of game design as we speak.

Yeah i dont play 100% sp either. Its a weird cluture fight for some people.
I just said thats its weird to feel more connected to a multiplayer avatar. I doubt you have numbers which say people play it for that reason.

Well, we are controlling the avatar. Connection and "immersion" are one in the same.

 

[Tg89]

I wouldn't say I prefer single player games, the three games I've spent the most time with are Diablo II, World of Warcraft and Counter Strike. Those are all games that I adore and that consumed me at various points in my life.

I think that's what it comes down to though, time. Multiplayer games generally require disproportionately more time than single player ones. When I was deep into games like WoW, D2 and CS I was pretty much only playing those games. They also potentially require you to play to more of a schedule if you want to play with friends or do things like raid in an MMO. Because of that, playing single player games requires me to play a larger variety of games in a more convenient way.

I still play multiplayer games but I'm also way more choosey with the ones I do play because of the time investment.

 

[Fabieter]

I'd argue charging 70 dollars up front and having a 30% completion rate for a 30 hour game is an exponentially worse rip off.

Thats nothing compared to the service whales which also not play the game extensively enough to make thousands of dollars worth it for a single game.

Again, growth is about moving borders, not about capturing the capital overnight. Just because you don't like ARC Raiders doesn't mean it isn't inspiring a wave of game design as we speak.

Cant wait for more fetch quest in future gaas games. It was definitely the last b2p service game i ever play. Not worth paying for a f2p game though.

Well, we are controlling the avatar. Connection and "immersion" are one in the same.

Not exclusively. I don't have any problem feeling connected to actors in a movie, so passive storytelling isn't an issue for me. As long as the character isn't portrayed differently in cutscenes than in gameplay, I don't care. That is bad writing, and I agree with that criticism,but it's not the majority of games being released.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Ironic as the first video game ever is multiplayer.


Or, ironically, Pong/Tennis for two.

That's why he sent the flood/games crash

 

[Knight of the Round]

The "no pause button" in souls games is a semantics argument because in those games you can just stand still and you're perfectly fine as long as you killed the mob.

Eh, not really. In Demon's Souls and DS 1-2, you can kill the mob, go to take a piss and come back to find your character at 0 souls in a bonfire, because he was killed by an invader while you were taking a piss.

Unless you play offline.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Thats nothing compared to the service whales which also not play the game extensively enough to make thousands of dollars worth it for a single game.

True. Live Service games rip off a small number of whales to a large degree. Story based games rip off 70% of their customers to a smaller degree. There's abuse in both fields.

Cant wait for more fetch quest in future gaas games. It was definitely the last b2p service game i ever play. Not worth paying for a f2p game though.

What if I told you the poorly designed fetch quests in first generation Extraction Shooters (like ARC Raiders) will improve during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation Extraction Shooters?

From Jumping Flash (PS1) to Astro Bot (PS5). Extraction will improve considerably over the next 10+ years.

Not exclusively. I don't have any problem feeling connected to actors in a movie, so passive storytelling isn't an issue for me. As long as the character isn't portrayed differently in cutscenes than in gameplay, I don't care. That is bad writing, and I agree with that criticism,but it's not the majority of games being released.

I think you've been conditioned (we all have) to accept the fact that story based games have two seperate protagonists, the main character and the player. Passive Mediums like film and TV don't struggle with that dilemma. Neither does multi-player.

But again, this competition between the two game types isn't won or lost based on our individual preferences.

 

[Sansnom]

Single player games aren't a never ending grind. They give you a sense of accomplishment when you finish a story. You're not stuck dealing with SBMM, EOMM, or whatever twisted, engagement driven algorithms that exist solely to keep you hooked.

 

[diffusionx]

I don't even know if I "prefer" singleplayer games, historically online FPS, RTS, fighting, MMO, were games I played a lot. But I do shy away from the grind of modern MP games and just choose not to engage with it because it is basically a fruitless pursuit. It's all so transparently designed to keep you paying and playing and it's becoming increasing cynical and I just don't want to get involved with that. Then you get something like Destiny where people spend hundreds of hours to get the Sun Rifle of Enlightenment and then a month later a new drop comes that is better then people start the grind again, like yea no I'm out. It's just a bunch of bits and bytes.

 

[rodrigolfp]

You're not stuck dealing with SBMM, EOMM, or whatever twisted, engagement driven algorithms that exist solely to keep you hooked.

So play games that have servers/lobbies to choose??

 

[Fabieter]

From Jumping Flash (PS1) to Astro Bot (PS5). Extraction will improve considerably over the next 10+ years.

Yeah from chrono trigger to final fantasy 16 the story for sure got better and better.

I highly doubt they will bother with better quest design and writing.

But again, this competition between the two game types isn't won or lost based on our individual preferences.

Of cause not but if you get your will i will look for a new hobby. I like some service games for a few hours every now and then but exclusivly hell no. I will just drop out.

 

[cireza]

Maybe I am but not on purpose because I can't imagine having 100% of control on how I consume my games.

So you can pause Dark Souls games??

I think you are being a contrarian on purpose.

Congratulations on citing the only game you can't pause, which is by the way totally dumb. Even without the pause, I can still put down the controller or go back to the dash which in the end pauses the game.

Now move on with your life and stop annoying me with your dumb answers.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Yeah from chrono trigger to final fantasy 16 the story for sure got better and better.

I highly doubt they will bother with better quest design and writing.

I would say the improvement of questions design is an inevitability. It's one of the frequent criticisms you see of ARC Raiders.

You're right about the writing but multi-player is about the dialogue generated by the player, not a script.

Of cause not but if you get your will i will look for a new hobby. I like some service games for a few hours every now and then but exclusivly hell no. I will just drop out.

Single player isn't going to die. It's boarders will continue to shrink though. ARC Raiders represents a new thread, not an end point in genre design.

 

[Major Insano]

I find single-player games way more immersive and escapist. I do still enjoy multi-player games, but prefer co-op pve a lot more these days over pvp.
I find it embarrassing to be a tryhard at competitive games now I'm a boomer.
That's just me though

 

[Paasei]

Eh?? What if I just want to do non group quests and leveling??

The part of your reply on my reasoning why I no longer play online games was mostly oriented toward the social aspect. And now you are talking about not grouping.... What?
The point of my reply about my reasoning was why I do NOT want to play online games anymore. Not me replying with reasons what is possible to avoid or not having to deal with the things I do not like about online games.

 

[Puscifer]

People are idiots. I tried that Microsoft team based game bleeding edge and nobody did the objective. Everyone just wants pvp. Basically the only multiplayer worth a shit is when the only objective is to get kills. Nobody wants to actually do objectives.

Also just being able to pick up and play with quick resume anytime for single player is goat

This thread got bumped but man did this bring me back to the days of bots in Unreal and Quake. Max out the difficulty where it was basically reading your inputs and ganging up on you and it was a blast. Never have to worry about teammates, the bots knew their job and they did it.

 

[rodrigolfp]

The part of your reply on my reasoning why I no longer play online games was mostly oriented toward the social aspect. And now you are talking about not grouping.... What?
The point of my reply about my reasoning was why I do NOT want to play online games anymore. Not me replying with reasons what is possible to avoid or not having to deal with the things I do not like about online games.

Good for you but what you choose to do doesn't exclude the option to play alone 90% of the game.

 

[Sansnom]

So play games that have servers/lobbies to choose??

That doesn't change what I said before that.

 

[rodrigolfp]

That doesn't change what I said before that.

Eh?? That's why I didn't quoted the part before.

 

[Paasei]

Good for you but what you choose to do doesn't exclude the option to play alone 90% of the game.

It's not a solution, either.

 

[rodrigolfp]

It's not a solution, either.

Solution for what?? Where is the problem??

 

[yurinka]

You do know that it's OK to just... go somewhere else on the map.
Even Team Cherry encourages their players to go explore elsewhere in order to get better and stronger.
There's literally no one except for yourself forcing you to bash your head against any given challenge causing you trouble.

This is why I skip most competitive MP games and focus on SP and PvE.

Not sure why you equate grind to MP games only.

I didn't, I equated it to master a game.

In my case playing in console, having a tv with low lag (LG C5 2025), good hardware (PS5) and great internet connection (playing wired with a good LAN cable, fiber symmetrical 1Gb connection using a properly configured relatively recent wifi7 capable router) I'm not limited by the hardware or the connection.

So to get really good in a game it's just a matter of spending thousands of hours to learn the game very well and unlock the best stuff.

 

[Paasei]

Solution for what?? Where is the problem??

Social aspect - hardly existent. The social aspect is all about making each others experience as annoying as possible. So the social aspect to me is like: What social aspect?

For the entirety of this fucking part of my first post in this thread that you reacted to.

 

[rodrigolfp]

For the entirety of this fucking part of my first post in this thread that you reacted to.

And you still didn't respond my question. How the hell the social in dungeons and RAIDS are about making others experiences as annoying as possible and not the exactly opposed to that?? I don't know you but all the interactions I do with players are for the dungeons to be better played/experienced.

 

[Paasei]

And you still didn't respond my question. How the hell the social in dungeons and RAIDS are about making others experiences as annoying as possible and not the exactly opposed to that?? I don't know you but all the interactions I do with players are for the dungeons to be better played/experienced.

Coop is different category. If you play online but only with a select bunch of people, there's no social aspect in a MMO.

What is social about a dungeon where nobody says a word to each other? If something goes wrong nothing is said and someone just instantly leaves the group.

Inside your own guild is all fun and games, but then you'd have to exclusively be playing with them.

Might as well not play an online game then. Another reason why the social aspect non existent

I did.

 

[rodrigolfp]

What is social about a dungeon where nobody says a word to each other? If something goes wrong nothing is said and someone just instantly leaves the group.

And you are missing the big part where the entire gameplay in cooperation to beat the dungeons are not only ALSO social interaction as it is the most important interaction in games. Interaction is not only words.

 

[yurinka]

This is the future of multi-player.

PvE centric classes that innoculate you against the PvP players while still placing you in the same lobby with them.

The future should be to acknowledge many players don't want to play multiplayer and that proper single player modes should be implemented in all games.

Or at least, implement PvE only modes.

And in the PvP modes, to implement a properly designed ELO based matchmaking system for ranked modes that only matches you to people of a (really) very similar skill, as some games like Street Fighter 6 or Heartstone successfully did, while tons of other ones miserably failed.

And well, to make sure the game has an option to mute the other players, and allow the basic communication with a couple button presses in a similar way of how Helldivers 2 does it to mark an objective, say 'follow me', 'hold on', 'thank you', 'gg' etc. Having predefined messages also helps the game localize them, taking down the language barrier and shitty mic issues in MP, and also as filter to insults/toxic stuff/etc.

So you only play games where you are "immortal" and can't "lose" against the AI??

Obviously not. I completed games like Bloodborne or the whole Mega Man series, but normally prefer chill games.

 

[Paasei]

And you are missing the big part where the entire gameplay in cooperation to beat the dungeons are not only ALSO social interaction as it is the most important interaction in games. Interaction is not only words.

No I'm not and no it isn't social to group up, be quiet the entire time and leaving when something unfortunately goes wrong.

Imagine being in a football team only cause you want to win games and don't care (enough) about the others in your team to never talk to them. Some social life.

 

[Fabieter]

would say the improvement of questions design is an inevitability. It's one of the frequent criticisms you see of ARC Raiders.

Wad the same for wow 20 years ago and the needle barley moved as far as mmo design goes. Its possible but i doubt it.

The fetch quests are basically like battle pass task from fornite which are still lame to this day.

Single player isn't going to die. It's boarders will continue to shrink though. ARC Raiders represents a new thread, not an end point in genre design.

Cant wait for march for the next evolution haha.

 

[rodrigolfp]

No I'm not and no it isn't social to group up, be quiet the entire time and leaving when something unfortunately goes wrong.

Imagine being in a football team only cause you want to win games and don't care (enough) about the others in your team to never talk to them. Some social life.

It is, you like or not. May be poor interaction, but still is. That is why stuff like "Looking for RAID" is a thing.

Obviously not

So it is masochism to die against players in "equal terms" but it is not to die against NPCs that 1 or 2 hit kills you vs him having to take 100 hits do die??

 

[Paasei]

It is, you like or not. May be poor interaction, but still is. That is why stuff like "Looking for RAID" is a thing.

It really isn't, but that is - sadly to say - where our opinion differ. The main reason for me to play multiplayer games would be to interact with other players. As in talking while playing, meeting other people. If I don't do any of it, they are essentially bots but more clever. A means to an end. And the reason that this kind of behaviour is encouraged by in this specific case Blizzard and WoW (by random grp finders), is exactly the reason why I quit playing.

 

[yurinka]

So it is masochism to die against players in "equal terms" but it is not to die against NPCs that 1 or 2 hit kills you vs him having to take 100 hits do die??

You can go check a dictionary to see what masochism (and sadistic) means. And then apply it to badly designed matchmaking in MP games that fail to match you with people of your same skill, often resulting on experiences that only masochist or sadistic people enjoy.

Outside matchmaking, in terms of game design difficulty can be controlled way better in single player games (and in which in most cases players can edit in the game settings to have easy, normal or hard difficulty), so this is why in general they normally have a better balanced experience than MP games.

 

[clarky]

This is why I skip most competitive MP games and focus on SP and PvE.


I didn't, I equated it to master a game.

In my case playing in console, having a tv with low lag (LG C5 2025), good hardware (PS5) and great internet connection (playing wired with a good LAN cable, fiber symmetrical 1Gb connection using a properly configured relatively recent wifi7 capable router) I'm not limited by the hardware or the connection.

So to get really good in a game it's just a matter of spending thousands of hours to learn the game very well and unlock the best stuff.

Total bullshit.

You said you don't want to grind and have a life. Being good at a MP game doesn't involve grinding.

 

[Polaris]

This is why I skip most competitive MP games and focus on SP and PvE.

Same.