Support NeoGAF

[borghe]

This is not a thread on actually pirating the PSP nor doing anything illegal. This isn't even really about theories on pirating it. The only real question posed in this thread is the one in the subject.

So, first where this comes from. After doing so thinking, it occured to me that this unit will probably be pirated by the end of this year. Taking all of the experience from the last 2 generations of systems, combined with multiple points of attack (WiFi proxy, executables from saves, etc), along with the fact that the largest UMD can fit uncompressed on the current largest memory stick and even if the stick isn't as fast as the UMD now, eventually fast enough sticks will probably exist. I won't go anymore into the specifics, but you get the point. The system WILL be pirated.

Now I'm just an everyday gamer who really has never pirated much of anything in the way of consoles. So it really is never even the 20th thing on my mind when thinking about them (though I did mod my XBox for XBMC). And yet I deduced this. So I HAVE to believe that some tech, or some manager at Sony knows the exact saem thing. It isn't a matter of if, it is only a matter of when.

So my question (to expand on the one in the topic) is why did sony give potential pirates so many opportunities? Why give them so many places to look for flaws?

Many have said that Sony wanted the PS2 to be pirated. That Sony in fact didn't want the PS1 to be pirated, but felt that the piratability of that console (is that even a word?) lead to the console's success with its installed base (yeah, real conspiracy stuff here, but humor me). And the same conspiracy theorists feel that's why sony kept virtually the exact same method of portection on the PS2. Stave off piracy for a while, but then when it occurs reap the benefits of a huge install base. So if these are true (who knows if they are?), would it make sense to think that's why Sony left the PSP so apparently wide open? I don't think it is far fetched to say that piracy has helped the GBA's install base numbers. Is Sony hoping for the same thing with the PSP?

I'm just shooting things around here. I don't necessarily think that Sony wants the system to be pirated, but like many others feel it is odd that they created so many obvious points for people to look into. I also find it interesting given their equally interesting past two game systems.

anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Gattsu25]

can't run executables off the MS

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

They didn't, really. We.. I mean pirates.. will have to forge our own.

 

[pcostabel]

can't run executables off the MS

Yes you can, but they have to be digitally signed.

 

[borghe]

can't run executables off the MS

this is not true at all. Sony has already given demonstrations of running exe's off of the MS. Now not being able to run unsigned exe's I can believe, but the GCN and XBox are both capable of running unsigned exe's even though they are not supposed to.

 

[borghe]

They didn't, really. We.. I mean pirates.. will have to forge our own.

but they did.. that's what I am saying. You have potential network exploits, ala GCN. You have potential save game exploits, ala XBox. I mean obviously Sony didn't put these things in there expressly to be hacked, but the fact remains they are hackable. So the question is, how closely will Sony monitor what their licensees are doing to prevent possible holes?

 

[chinch]

if it is overtly piratable - i don't know if this is even true - then this was obviously by design.

did hacking help the PS... abso-f'in-lutely. but so did many other things like bad sega launch price/titles, nintendo without cd, etc. those helped more than pirating

they probably felt the UMD discs won't be easily replicated and downloading one game per memory card is not convenient nor sellable. For example, you could sell copied PS game CDs in stores. now if they start selling UMD writers...

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

but they did.. that's what I am saying. You have potential network exploits, ala GCN. You have potential save game exploits, ala XBox. I mean obviously Sony didn't put these things in there expressly to be hacked, but the fact remains they are hackable. So the question is, how closely will Sony monitor what their licensees are doing to prevent possible holes?

....and you don't believe every system in existance does not have the same vulnerabilities?

I think Sony's encryption and security handles the job fine, so far. The PS2 was cracked even before release, so the PSP is doing better.

 

[dark10x]

Does the memory stick use some sort of encryption that has yet to be cracked?

 

[Nerevar]

I think Sony's encryption and security handles the job fine, so far. The PS2 was cracked even before release, so the PSP is doing better.

I seriously doubt the encryption on the .exe's are going to be cracked. Almost all console "hacks" are derived from exploiting holes in the system (adding modchips to run unsigned code, taking advantage of a bug in loading a save game to load unisgned code into memory, etc.). If people were cracking the encryption on the executable files we would be able to simply burn games to DVD directly from a download to play them. As long as Sony was smart about limiting potential exploits, they should be fine. Hardly any "conspiracy" there.

Does the memory stick use some sort of encryption that has yet to be cracked?

The executable files have to be digitally signed to be loaded up by the OS. So while the memory stick itself isn't "secure", the files on it have to be officially signed by Sony to run.

 

[Jared Goodwin]

Taking all of the experience from the last 2 generations of systems, combined with multiple points of attack (WiFi proxy, executables from saves, etc), along with the fact that the largest UMD can fit uncompressed on the current largest memory stick and even if the stick isn't as fast as the UMD now, eventually fast enough sticks will probably exist.

Not necessarily arguing with the rest, but the speed limitation is a limitation of the PSP, not the sticks. High Speed MS Duos can't use their high-speed parallel mode with the PSP, as it doesn't support it, and it seems unlikely that any other speed improvements could be implemented purely on the MS side.

Otherwise, agreed, with some caveats. Are the PSP games encrypted? How hard is it to get arbitrary code to execute from the MS? These things aren't answered yet.

In any case, it's not nearly as hackable as the GBA.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Does the memory stick use some sort of encryption that has yet to be cracked?

Like Microsoft's Xbox, you can only run signed code. However, unlike the Xbox, you cannot execute code period, signed or unsigned, via the memstick. Right now, the best we can come up with is a buffer overflow.

Also different from the Xbox: No leaked PSP dev kit. Security on these is tight. Microsoft learned their lesson, and Sony took that as an example.

You won't see any game dev kits on Ebay for a loooong time, kids.

 

[Culex]

Does the memory stick use some sort of encryption that has yet to be cracked?

I believe so. I might be wrong, but the Magic Gate and Memory Stick cards didn't use to have encryption, but there's been a DRM on them since last year.

 

[borghe]

no, the memory stick is just a normal FAT filesystem. executables have to be signed to be run from the memory stick, but there are ways around that in theory (aka XBox and GCN).

in response to TAS - technically no. Aside from the PS2, both other systems needed entirely new ways devised to get into them. Sony has possibly saved hackers the trouble though by giving both methods (redirectable networking and executable files from read write storage) and by using off the shelf storage that is currently large enough to handle their media.

Next gen will be interesting I think because of the lessons learned this gen. I am just wondering if Sony took those lessons into account or if the system will really be as relatively easy to break into as it looks (timewise that is). I am then wondering if it is, if Sony did that deliberately to potentially boost sales (pirated systems do sell more than unpiratable systems. fact.)

 

[borghe]

you cannot execute code period, signed or unsigned, via the memstick.

I am going to look but I know sony was demoing downloadable demos and stuff running from the memstick.. or at least downloaded programs... unless they were downloading programs to system memory and running them from there, they had to be going to the memstick.

 

[Cloudy]

Why is the PSP so obviously piratable?

So Sony can sell memory sticks. They hold the patent on those and make money off any brand sold IIRC...

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I am going to look but I know sony was demoing downloadable demos and stuff running from the memstick.. or at least downloaded programs... unless they were downloading programs to system memory and running them from there, they had to be going to the memstick.

Couldn't be demo units with firmware revision that allows signed memstick code to play, could it?

I think many people are looking for ways to get into the PSP's firmware already.

So Sony can sell memory sticks. They hold the patent on those and make money off any brand sold IIRC...

I believe Sandisk does....

 

[VNZ]

Wasn't that fake firmware upgrade (that rendered a legion of PSP's unusable some months ago) in fact an executable that ran from memorystick?

 

[Jared Goodwin]

I believe Sandisk does....

SanDisk and Lexar both licensed the Memory Stick, but they pay a royalty to Sony for each one they sell.

 

[drohne]

i'm glad sony haven't crippled the unit's functionality in order to deter piracy. there are legitimate applications for memory stick executables -- demos, system updates, perhaps browser software. it's something the psp can do and should be allowed to do, even thought it might be exploited somewhere down the line. i'm surprised by how "open" the psp is...i didn't think we'd be able to watch movies from memory stick, as this largely moots umd movies.

the conspiracy theory that some console manufacturers permit or encourage piracy is basically silly, particularly when those manufacturers rely on software sales to offset hardware losses. i think it comes down to the belief that if other companies are beating nintendo, then they must be cheating somehow.

 

[borghe]

huh? First, who is beating Nintendo? Second, the GBA is MEGA-piratable. Third, you are way oversimplifying the whole licensing cost aspect.

Sony does offset costs through software licensing. However piracy doesn't hurt sony licensing, it hurts the software publishers. Publishers pay their licensing costs based on what they manufacture, not what they sell. Also, with high installed bases, it makes the system more attractive to develop for. That means a minimum print run for a game and a guaranteed licensing fee for Sony.

Look at it this way. User A pirates game B. The publisher loses out on the sale of game B. However they already paid sony the licensing fee for game B. The piracy will hurt sony on the next game from the publisher possibly, but on the other hand if the game still sells well, then it probably won't.

 

[drohne]

beating. present participle. sony are in the process of beating nintendo.

and i'm glad you agree that piracy ultimately cuts the revenue a hardware manufacturer receives from licensing fees.

 

[Jared Goodwin]

Look at it this way. User A pirates game B. The publisher loses out on the sale of game B. However they already paid sony the licensing fee for game B. The piracy will hurt sony on the next game from the publisher possibly, but on the other hand if the game still sells well, then it probably won't.

If I recall correctly, Sony gets per-sale fees on PS2 and PSP games. Even if they don't, Sony is the only vendor for UMD disks and UMD authoring, so they have a vested interest in everyone's PSP games.

(Edit for clarity.)

 

[Nerevar]

Sony does offset costs through software licensing. However piracy doesn't hurt sony licensing, it hurts the software publishers. Publishers pay their licensing costs based on what they manufacture, not what they sell. Also, with high installed bases, it makes the system more attractive to develop for. That means a minimum print run for a game and a guaranteed licensing fee for Sony.

I really don't think this is correct ... I was under the impression that 3rd parties pay a per-title-sold licensing fee (i.e., a percentage of the $50 you pay on a game goes to Sony).

 

[borghe]

If I recall correctly, Sony gets per-sale fees on PS2 and PSP games. Even if they don't, Sony is the only vendor for UMD disks and UMD authoring, so they have a vested interest in everyone's PSP games.

(Edit for clarity.)

I sure thought that the licensing fee was tied into the manufacturing. if someone could clairfy with proof, that would be spanking. Either way, sony still sees profit on manufacturing which definitely happens pre-sale.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I sure thought that the licensing fee was tied into the manufacturing. if someone could clairfy with proof, that would be spanking. Either way, sony still sees profit on manufacturing which definitely happens pre-sale.

I've asked this before and never gotten a clear answer.

Back in the NES days, it certainly was tied to manufacturing. Nowadays, I don't know.

 

[Lord Error]

Like Microsoft's Xbox, you can only run signed code. However, unlike the Xbox, you cannot execute code period, signed or unsigned, via the memstick.

Then what did I do just the other day running their official executable file with firmware update, right off the memory stick?

 

[borghe]

Then what did I do just the other day running their official executable file with firmware update, right off the memory stick?

guess that clears up that question.

 

[FitzOfRage]

Not sure if anything would be different for the PSP, but this is from the US PS2 licensing agreement.

http://contracts.corporate.findlaw.com/agreements/bam/p2.license.2000.04.01.html

Publisher shall pay SCEA, either directly or
through its designee, a per title royalty in United States dollars for each
Unit of the Licensed Products manufactured

 

[chespace]

Thank god the PSP is exploitable.

Makes the system that much better.

 

[bjork]

if it is overtly piratable - i don't know if this is even true - then this was obviously by design.

For serious.

When an architect puts a backdoor on a house, do you not use it? </kutaragi>

 

[borghe]

Publisher shall pay SCEA, either directly or
through its designee, a per title royalty in United States dollars for each
Unit of the Licensed Products manufactured

that is really what I thought. the purpose behind doing per title manufactured and not sold is this. if it is per title sold, the publisher can run off 1 jillion copies of a title (that is one order higher than a frillion ) and pay nothing but manufacturing and distribution on the units. they just let them sit on store shelves forever and ever and pay sony royalties as they come in. In the meantime, you end up with stock sitting on the shelves and warehouses of titles that won't move (see Atari 2600).

By forcing the publishers to pay on titles manufactured, it helps curb publishers printing up ridiculous amounts of copies that will sit there forever and Sony (or whoever) never seeing any money on it.

I know Nintendo still does this. Knew Sony started that way, and am sure MS does it that way also. With the other people saying Sony didn't I got a little worried/confused.

So taking this back on topic, Sony thus loses very little so to speak from third party piracy. They still see per title manufactured licensing fees, manufacturing costs (in the case of UMDs), and unless a title is crippled from piracy (which I don't think has happened yet) it probably won't affect the next manufacturing order/print run on the publishers next game.

It's the publishers who take it directly on the chin from piracy, not sony (or MS or Nintendo).

 

[Jared Goodwin]

It's the publishers who take it directly on the chin from piracy, not sony (or MS or Nintendo).

Nevermind that Sony is one of the biggest publishers.

 

[borghe]

nm

 

[Jared Goodwin]

nm

 

[slayn]

software piracy prevention only serves to keep honest people honest. People are going to find a way to pirate your stuff. Attempting to stop these people just ends up hurting you and your legitimate customers.

All any company really needs to do is just make it hard enough that someone that buy's their games won't suddenly decide its easier to pirate it. All the psp really needs is some sort of minimal security so that there are more steps involved than just download a game to your memory stick and play, which I assume they do.

 

[Fafalada]

I don't necessarily think that Sony wants the system to be pirated, but like many others feel it is odd that they created so many obvious points for people to look into. I also find it interesting given their equally interesting past two game systems.

I don't get this argument at all. Are you saying that system should be made with no network capability, no high capacity flash media etc. because those features open doors for pirates to look into?
Whee, let's make all our PCs offline-only again too, should kill the piracy big time :\

Seriously though - if you worked on the machine you'd know it's a heck of a lot more restricted due to "security requirements" then any other console out there. Sometimes to the point of restrictions making no sense, but I'm not about to go into that now.

The system WILL be pirated.

Well "duh" - even GC got pirated, inspite of the stupidly complicated and clumsy procedure people have to go through to do it. The real question that should be asked is - will there be mainstream piracy venues or not.

 

[slayn]

Also, as for the sony wanting piracy discussion, they most certainly do. It helps them. Probably a lot. Thats not to say they want full blown piracy, they need a balance. The most beneficial piracy level for sony is one in which what I said above is true. Enough security so as not to add to the 'piracy userbase' but weak enough that pirates can flock to your system.

basically you have two userbases. Legit and Pirates. Legit get you your money but you get more games on your system for legit+pirates being high, not just legit. So basically you want to maximize your legit userbase while not severely cutting into your piracy userbase.

I think ninetendo was stupid to make it as anti pirate as it is.

 

[Jared Goodwin]

Also, as for the sony wanting piracy discussion, they most certainly do. It helps them. Probably a lot. Thats not to say they want full blown piracy, they need a balance. The most beneficial piracy level for sony is one in which what I said above is true. Enough security so as not to add to the 'piracy userbase' but weak enough that pirates can flock to your system.

basically you have two userbases. Legit and Pirates. Legit get you your money but you get more games on your system for legit+pirates being high, not just legit. So basically you want to maximize your legit userbase while not severely cutting into your piracy userbase.

I think ninetendo was stupid to make it as anti pirate as it is.

Not really seeing the benefit of a piracy userbase, here.

Other than bragging about installed numbers, I guess.

 

[shuri]

It's "easy" for the end user since he only had to install a modchip / run something, but all the research and in depth knowledge that was required behind the scene was pretty hard to attain, and thats not even mentionning how the special equipement and analysers required to trace system calls and whatsnot.

I dont think that a simple dns redirect is really a hack or a breaktrought :lol

 

[vireland]

can't run executables off the MS

Wrong answer. Anyone who's run the 1.5 firmware upgrade on Japanese PSPs knows this. The file you download shows up on the menu and you RUN it. Works just like a BIOS flash program on a PC.

 

[borghe]

if you worked on the machine you'd know it's a heck of a lot more restricted due to "security requirements" then any other console out there. Sometimes to the point of restrictions making no sense, but I'm not about to go into that now.

are you with a PSP deveolper? this is the kind of thing I was wondering.

Not really seeing the benefit of a piracy userbase, here.

Other than bragging about installed numbers, I guess.

Install base is worth a lot more than bragging rights. Install base generally follows game sales which generally dictate a good portion of the decision making process when deciding what system to release games for. And the GameboyNext supposedly being announced this year and much more in line with the PSP (than the DS at least) install base is arguably everything

naked shuriken - I was in no way referring to the DNS hack. I have been programming since first learning AREXX on the Amiga. Needless to say many years. I understand the difference between a DNS/proxy rewrite and actually bypassing or faking private key checks and using bufferoverruns to stick code in executable memory space. I was referring to potential exploits such as using buffer overruns in hacked game saves, intercepting client server requests in an online game, etc. all of the stuff that is already done on other systems.

anyway, I don't want this thread to turn into how it can be done (BAN!) or if it will be done (duh).. just curious as to if sony put much security behind already obvious points of entry, and if not, how much would that lend itself to the theorists around the net.

 

[xavean1]

You need to understand what type of piracy Sony (and Nintendo / MS for that matter) want to prevent. Its not running hacked software on their consoles, its not even copying games and putting them on Memory Stick. They want to prevent bootleg copies being sold, because these actually cut into their sales. If someone downloads and game to Memory Stick, its a bit different that some person actually going out to buy their game but ending up getting a bootleg.

 

[iapetus]

no, the memory stick is just a normal FAT filesystem.

VFAT, technically, but what's a V between filing systems?

 

[Apharmd Battler]

Thank god the PSP is exploitable.

Makes the system that much better.

True indeed. I wasn't even thiking of picking one up for a LONG time. But I keep seeing all these cool exploits and hacks, it makes me want to rush out and get one ASAP. My buddy has one and I've been avoiding him like the plague becuase I know I'll break doen and buy one <curses under breath>.

 

[slayn]

Not really seeing the benefit of a piracy userbase, here.

Other than bragging about installed numbers, I guess.

because pirates still have to buy the console. Giving you a higher install base. Making you look like the 'winner' vs your competitors, thus making more third parties make gmaes for your system, thus giving you more money and making your user base become even larger.

absurd example:
say 80% of initial ps2 owners were pirates. Then in fact they were doing quite horribly. But pirates jumped on and inflated the userbase numbers to make it look successful. And because it looked successful, third parties then made it a success.

I can't really see anyway to argue against that if you assume my retarded 80% statistic. What can be argued, is how big that % actually is, and how significant of an inpact it has. I doubt theres any way to prove either side, but I personally believe it to be significant enough that all console makers should want a healthy amount of piracy on their system.

I also think its hard to argue that having a small amount of piracy has a net negative effect. Widespread bootlegs do, of course, but having a small online community that bought the system and download games? I in no way buy that being a bad thing from the console maker's point of view.

hardware makers have always benefitted from piracy. Because then you still need their hardware for it. Its a little trickier in gaming because the hardware makers are software makers as well. And I don't believe the negatives from the software side completely negate the positives from the hardware side. I think a console maker should attempt to find a balance that they are happy with.

edit: and I in no way think sony 'won' because of piracy. I think people under-estimate its contribution to sony's success by a significant amount, but even then it was still a small contributer amongst a host of much larger issues.

 

[Gattsu25]

Wrong answer. Anyone who's run the 1.5 firmware upgrade on Japanese PSPs knows this. The file you download shows up on the menu and you RUN it. Works just like a BIOS flash program on a PC.

whoo...looks like I should have said homebrew but either way, only degitally signed software can be executed and only Sony knows the key. Unless some people decide to go crazy and correctly guess/crack the key you won't be seeing any homebrew executables on the MS

in regards to piracy: you can't run executables off the MS

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

If I can only have a good port of Mame (doesn't even need to do games past 1991 or so) I will be happy.

 

[borghe]

in regards to piracy: you can't run executables off the MS

kind of like how you can't run unsigned executables off of the xbox, right? ;P

just because the default UI is incapable of doing this doesn't mean there isn't a potential overrun exploit where there is no signature checking.

anywho.. good conversation folks. That is a good point on different kinds of piracy and wanting to stop certain kinds. though suprnova at it's peak saw something like 4000 simultaneous downloads of popular ps2 games.. certainly sony has to balk at that to a degree, even if it is mainly worried about bootlegs.

 

[bridegur]

Get SNES and Genesis and maybe N64/PSX/DC running on one and I'll get another.