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[legend166]

Sony was also aggressive with PS2. They invested quite a bit into the Emotion Engine. And it panned out for them spectacularly.

From what I recall, they were aggressive with the PSX as well, and that panned out for them specatcularly as well.

The PSP I think made them a decent chunk of change as well.

So really, Sony being aggressive only hurt them with the PS3.

And I maintain that what ran up the costs of the PS3 so much was the blu ray drive, which was several hundreds of dollars when the PS3 launched.

Blu Ray wasn't a technological neccesity to push the hardware. Sony could have easily pushed the hardware and made money.

The Xbox 360 made Microsoft a decent amount of money. It was the original Xbox that was a money pit for them. Sony could have followed in MS's footsteps with the PS3 to deliver a console that both nets them profit and pushes hardware.

I don't understand what your definition of aggressive means.

Microsoft were aggressive. They sunk billions of dollars and paid off anyone and everyone to try and get a foothold into the market.

Sony weren't aggressive with the PS1. They were smart. They made a lot of smart decisions. They basically saw all the major mistakes Nintendo were making, and fixed them.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Can't believe you have so much difficulty reading.

I was quite clear, that maybe blu ray was a net negative, but unless and until someone can post data on blu ray revenues to back that up, it's merely speculation.

That chart ignores every sector other than gaming, when the whole reason the PS3 lost so much money was the crazy expensive blu ray drive they included with it at launch, and the revenues for that don't show up in the gaming division.

Jesus H Christ.

Me and others have just given you the royalty rates for Blu-Ray, which isn't even Sony's format and they aren't even the largest stake-holder. So those very small royalty amounts are made even smaller when they get to Sony.

Now instead of Googling meaningless factoids, whip out your calculator and work out how many drives and discs would have to be sold to make up a fraction of the 5 BILLION Sony lost.

Then can we go back to the subject of this thread which you constantly derail from the comfort of your fantasy land.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Legend, aggressive in pushing technology is what I mean. The PS1 pushed technology, in particular 3D graphics well before anyone else. The PS2 was quite advanced considering when it first came out. Sony has always pushed technology. With the PS3, it didn't work out for them, but it has worked out for them repeatedly in the past.

He just seems to have problems with seeing the bigger picture, and then gets caught up on Googling isolated things to try and support his viewpoint while ignoring everything else. Cue constant thread derailments.

PS3 was a catastrophic mistake business-wise, that would have taken down smaller companies or led to a swift exit from making consoles like Sega.

Microsoft also bled money, but that was their plan to buy their way into an industry and control content-delivery which was more important to them than games. For Sony to throw away their previous dominance of the industry and wipe out all their profits while doing so can only be seen as utterly disastrous.

Again, way to completely ignore what I actually posted.

All I asked was some data on blu ray revenue to back up the claim that it will never recoup the loss from PS3.

That chart ignores every sector other than gaming, when the whole reason the PS3 lost so much money was the crazy expensive blu ray drive they included with it at launch, and the revenues for that don't show up in the gaming division.

At this point, no one even knows how long it will take before blu ray dies as a format. I see no reason to believe that Blu Ray is about to die anytime soon, and it has consistently grown every single year like clockwork. Blu Ray could be netting Sony revenue for many decades, well past this console generation.

As someone posted earlier, Sony is currently making about 80 million an year on blu ray disk licensing fees. That may seem like chump change but that depends on how long the format actually lasts.

If blu ray sticks around for a decade, and continues to grow as it has been for many years now, then it's quite likely Sony would make billions off of the format before it dies.

And those are the disk licensing fees alone, not players.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Again, way to completely ignore what I actually posted.

All I asked was some data on blu ray revenue to back up the claim that it will never recoup the loss from PS3.

That chart ignores every sector other than gaming, when the whole reason the PS3 lost so much money was the crazy expensive blu ray drive they included with it at launch, and the revenues for that don't show up in the gaming division.

At this point, no one even knows how long it will take before blu ray dies as a format. Blu Ray could be netting Sony revenue for many decades, well past this console generation.

As someone posted, Sony is making about 80 million an year on blu ray disk licensing fees. That may seem like chump change but that depends on how long the format actually lasts.

If blu ray sticks around for a decade, and continues to grow as it has been for many years now, then it's quite likely they could make billions off of the format before it dies.

And those are the disk licensing fees alone, not players.

We'd already given it you, you idiot! And yes, that is personal because this is getting incredibly annoying.

You argue for the sake of arguing, constantly, in threads nothing about the subject matter, and don't see the bigger picture or often what other people are even posting. Just strange posts of sentence, line break, sentence, line break, saying the same things over and over and over again.

Like a monkey with a miniature cymbal.

 

[legend166]

Can't believe you have so much difficulty reading.

I was quite clear, that maybe blu ray was a net negative, but unless and until someone can post data on blu ray revenues to back that up, it's merely speculation.

That chart ignores every sector other than gaming, when the whole reason the PS3 lost so much money was the crazy expensive blu ray drive they included with it at launch, and the revenues for that don't show up in the gaming division.

I've given you reasonable, educated guesses based on known facts (licence costs) about what Blu-Ray might make Sony, with some crazy numbers. Let's say over the life of the format they sell:

500 million players (10 million sold in the US last year) @ $3 a piece to Sony: $1.5 Billion

10 billion discs @ 3c a piece to Sony: $300 million

That's a grand total of $1.8 billion. Over a period of what, 10 years?

Nintendo, in a pretty poor year for them, just made a touch over $2 billion in the last FY.

Now, was it worth it?

 

[Stephen Colbert]

legend16, thank you for posting actual data. That's all I was asking for. Some data to backup the rampant claims.

I don't know how long blu ray will last as a format. Neither do you. It could easily last another decade or two, or it could die sometime this decade.

Until we actually know that, we still can't judge whether it was worth it to sink a few billion into winning the format war.

We'd already given it you, you idiot! And yes, that is personal because this is getting incredibly annoying.

You argue for the sake of arguing, constantly, in threads nothing about the subject matter, and don't see the bigger picture or often what other people are even posting. Just strange posts of sentence, line break, sentence, line break, saying the same things over and over and over again.

Like a monkey with a miniature cymbal.

You seem incapable of making an argument without resorting to insults. Pretty sad actually.

All I asked was for some actual data.

What exactly have you given?

Any sign that blu ray is fading away?

Any sign that blu ray is going to die or be replaced anytime this decade?

No, then exactly on what basis are you claiming that Sony will never recoup the initial investment in making the format a success?

 

[richman555]

Sony was also aggressive with PS2. They invested quite a bit into the Emotion Engine. And it panned out for them spectacularly.

While this is true, the main reason PS2 panned out so well was the financial demise of SEGA. If not for that, it was going to be a dog fight for that generation.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

That's a grand total of $1.8 billion. Over a period of what, 10 years?

And all of those assumptions are massively, horrendously generous to Sony.

 

[DECK'ARD]

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Selling tens of millions of blu ray every year doesn't seem bad at all.

#Completely OT#

The licensing fee for a Blu-Ray disc is $0.11 cents (£0.05) as of 2009 end.

In 2010 the top five selling Blu-Ray films came in under 25 million units:

Avatar, 8m
Iron Man 2, 4.5m
Beauty and the Beast, 4m
Toy Story 3, 4m
Inception, 2.7m

The Digital Entertainment Group Europe (DEGE) announced that 342m DVDs sold in 2010, over ten times the amount of Blu-Ray discs.

So at best 34m x £0.05 = £1.5m

The 1.5m is then distributed to Sony, Philips and Panasonic and other patent holders.

That is chump change.

 

[Christine]

One thing to remember about Blu Ray is that although it is in fact seeing fairly rapid sales growth, this is primarily at the expense of DVD. Disc sales (Blu Ray + DVD) are on a consistent decline.

Remember that Sony is also a DVD Forum member. They get a larger relative share of Blu Ray royalties, but they've essentially just cut themselves a bigger piece of a shrinking pie.

 

[J-Rock]

Um... can we talk about Nintendo and Cafe? Damn guys. This thread will be locked in a week if you keep this up.

 

[Jinfash]

#Completely OT#

The licensing fee for a Blu-Ray disc is $0.11 cents (£0.05) as of 2009 end.

In 2010 the top five selling Blu-Ray films came in under 25 million units:

Avatar, 8m
Iron Man 2, 4.5m
Beauty and the Beast, 4m
Toy Story 3, 4m
Inception, 2.7m

The Digital Entertainment Group Europe (DEGE) announced that 342m DVDs sold in 2010, over ten times the amount of Blu-Ray discs.

So at best 34m x £0.05 = £1.5m

The 1.5m is then distributed to Sony, Philips and Panasonic and other patent holders.

That is chump change.

Even if the gains are minuscule, who's to say it won't recoup the losses in the next decade or so since it's not showing any sign of decline atm?

 

[Stephen Colbert]

.

So at best 34m x £0.05 = £1.5m

The 1.5m is then distributed to Sony, Philips and Panasonic and other patent holders.

That is chump change.

Your numbers seem to be wrong.

The last number I remember reading as far as BluRay royalties for Sony goes was about $80 million for an entire year(?)

So yeah, if my memory doesn't suck, that's total chump change.

I acknowledge that isn't enough to recoup the costs for now.

But again, until we know how long blu ray lasts as a format, we don't know how much Sony will make off the format in the long term.

It took DVDs a decade to see widespread adoption into just about every house.

For now, blu ray growth has actually outpaced dvd growth, with no signs of slowing down, or being replaced by a new format.

So again, it's premature to determine how much money Sony will make from winning the format war.

 

[Kard8p3]

So how about that project cafe?

 

[DECK'ARD]

http://i.imgur.com/DNodX.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

I may be joining you in that nice peaceful place at this rate.

Trouble is you still have the wreckage of derailed threads to navigate, and the painful sight of other people beating their heads against walls.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Um... can we talk about Nintendo and Cafe? Damn guys. This thread will be locked in a week if you keep this up.

Agree, sorry for the continued derail.

 

[HYDE]

Um... can we talk about Nintendo and Cafe? Damn guys. This thread will be locked in a week if you keep this up.

Seriously nothing worse than watching two grown men fight like a couple of grade schoolers.
How old are we guys, can we not chat without insults. This thread is supposed to be fun and full of hype, quit party-poopin'.

 

[Jinfash]

And how long did it take for DVD to get to the place it is right now. Well over a decade.

If you really think the numbers will change exponentially in the next 5 to 10 years, to the point where Sony's measly royalties recoup some of the losses they took with Bluray, then you have to face your drug addiction problem.

 

[Vic]

Well, Sony is already aggressive with the NGP.

Fortunately MS and Sony are not like Nintendo.

I see neither of them launching systems with state-of-art specs in 2014-13 like they did this generation.

Microsoft probably won't try to faceoff directly the Playstation platform as they did with the PS2 & PS3. The Playstation platform is no considerable threat to Microsoft anymore. If they launch a new platform, their goals will be revenue & profit orientated before anything else.

To this day, Sony's Playstation business haven't stopped bleeding losses ever since the PSP & PS3 launched. Sony Corporation as a whole is in a bad shape, especially when you consider that it was the Playstation business that provided them a big part of their revenues & profits the past decades. It is impossible for Sony to bear high-costs for their upcoming home console like they did with the PS2 & PS3. The NGP should give us an insight about which direction Sony will take in the future.

 

[HYDE]

If you really think the numbers will change exponentially in the next 5 to 10 years, to the point where Sony's measly royalties recoup some of the losses they took with Bluray, then you have to face your drug addiction problem.

Please don't bait you-know-who anymore.

On a side note, did you know my middle name's Eugene?

I hope Stream has all of it's previous systems (except wii) on the virtual console.

 

[abstract alien]

I know its extremely premature, but I want to see how they handle Mario with the information we have been given about the controller. Galaxy was both a refreshing game idea and also a very clear sign that a mostly traditional game could be done to great effect on the wiimote. Curious if it will take that sort of route, or if Nintendo will try to revolutionize the genre in some fashion with whatever they have planned.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Can someone post a ridiculous mock-up or something?

Anything!

 

[Stephen Colbert]

If you really think the numbers will change exponentially in the next 5 to 10 years, to the point where Sony's measly royalties recoup some of the losses they took with Bluray, then you have to face your drug addiction problem.

Why resort to insults? Because you can't argue based on historical data.

Yes right now, sony is making 80 million or so an year on blu ray disk royalty fees.

But blu ray are still early in their lives. Their growth has consistently outpaced dvds.

Give it a few years before claiming that Sony will never recoup the investment. If blu rays continue outpacing dvds for a little bit longer then Sony will easily recoup it and then some.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I know its extremely premature, but I want to see how they handle Mario with the information we have been given about the controller. Galaxy was both a refreshing game idea and also a very clear sign that a mostly traditional game could be done to great effect on the wiimote. Curious if it will take that sort of route, or if Nintendo will try to revolutionize the genre in some fashion with whatever they have planned.

Well Mario 3DS looks like being the obvious Mario 64+Galaxy hybrid, and shall be GLORIOUS.

I'd imagine Super Streaming Mario Bros. will end up multiplayer focussed, whether 2D or 3D.

 

[HYDE]

I know its extremely premature, but I want to see how they handle Mario with the information we have been given about the controller. Galaxy was both a refreshing game idea and also a very clear sign that a mostly traditional game could be done to great effect on the wiimote. Curious if it will take that sort of route, or if Nintendo will try to revolutionize the genre in some fashion with whatever they have planned.

What if it panned an additional camera behind Mario, and let you experience plumber's crack in true 1080p high definition at 240hz.

Being serious, it would be cool if he entered houses and things went side scrolling on the controller's screen (kind of like Four Sword Adventures). 3d big screen 2d little screen.

 

[BoilersFan23]

Sony was also aggressive with PS2. They invested quite a bit into the Emotion Engine. And it panned out for them spectacularly.

From what I recall, they were aggressive with the PSX as well, and that panned out for them specatcularly as well.

The PSP I think made them a decent chunk of change as well.

So really, Sony being aggressive only hurt them with the PS3.

And I maintain that what ran up the costs of the PS3 so much was the blu ray drive, which was several hundreds of dollars when the PS3 launched.

Blu Ray wasn't a technological neccesity to push the hardware. Sony could have easily pushed the hardware and made money.

The Xbox 360 made Microsoft a decent amount of money. It was the original Xbox that was a money pit for them, but the Xbox 360 was very profitable for Microsoft. Sony could have followed in MS's footsteps with the PS3 to deliver a console that both nets them profit and pushes hardware.

You'd be surprised to hear that adding a blu-ray drive only added $100 to PS3 manufacturing costs. Even if PS3 lacked blu-ray, the pricetag would have still been the same (because they were losing $240 to $300 on every console sold. Main motherboard alone was around $500). They decided to eat up the cost of including blu-ray because they saw it paying off in the end, which it did.

 

[jman2050]

Your numbers seem to be wrong.

My number is way way more likely to be wrong than his number.

So you can stop quoting me now since my posts no longer welecively support your argument.

 

[JaseC]

Looks like Gaming just got its own Blu-ray OT.

Also, I just remembered that I still haven't watched Fire Walk With Me on BD.

 

[molekiller]

Found it:

 

[J-Rock]

They won't stop. We have no fresh rumors. It's over.

 

[Kandinsky]

Well, Sony is already aggressive with the NGP.

Fortunately MS and Sony are not like Nintendo.

They try to, tho.

:/

 

[watershed]

Seriously nothing worse than watching two grown men fight like a couple of grade schoolers.
How old are we guys, can we not chat without insults. This thread is supposed to be fun and full of hype, quit party-poopin'.

You're making the assumption that they're grown men....not so sure about that one. jk
But back to the cafe, have we cleared up whether the screen is 6" or much smaller like the IGN quote from today seemed to be read as saying? Because if you think about it the mock up IGN did in the first place with the classic controler pro is exactly what they described in their newest article: a standard controller with an ipod touch horizontally placed in the middle. I think the possibilities for that are a far cry from the much more interesting possibilities of a much larger 6" screen. Personally I wouldn't want to stream an hd game that can be played on a beautiful 42" hd tv onto an ipod touch. But I think the french site has been consistent with the 6" screen description and the mock up they point to is much closer to a tablet with "handles" type controller so I'm gonna go with them.

 

[legend166]

If you think Blu-Rays will last for 20 years, or be more popular than DVDs, there's not point having this argument. Might as well say the PS3 will last another 10 years and eventually sell 1 billion console and make Sony a trillion dollars.

 

[HYDE]

They won't stop. We have no fresh rumors. It's over.

I'm sorry Link but the Princess is in another castle.

 

[DECK'ARD]

If you think Blu-Rays will last for 20 years, or be more popular than DVDs, there's not point having this argument. Might as well say the PS3 will last another 10 years and eventually sell 1 billion console and make Sony a trillion dollars.

 

[Kenka]

I didn't know that PowerPC was still in production.

What are actually the odds of having a Llano CPU inside the Wii ? What are the best competitors in this size/consumption/raw calculating power segment ? Could Renesas for example be a contender as well ?

GPU-wise, I guess that future iterations of PowerVR can also easily rival with Xenos and beyond ? It's just too bad we don't know if it'll take in account DirectX 11 or the latest OpenGL.

 

[neoanarch]

Bluray will never be more popular than DVD.

Digital delivery will make sure of that.

 

[Freezie KO]

It's almost as if Nintendo made that Zelda animation for specific use as a bail out gif in this thread.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Your numbers seem to be wrong.

Those numbers are from the DEGE, they couldn't be any more accurate.

 

[HYDE]

I didn't know that PowerPC was still in production.

What are actually the odds of having a Llano CPU inside the Wii ? What are the best competitors in this size/consumption/raw calculating power segment ? Could Renesas for example be a contender as well ?

GPU-wise, I guess that future iterations of PowerVR can also easily rival with Xenos and beyond ?

No, to infinity and beyond!

 

[dwu8991]

Bluray will never be more popular than DVD.

Digital delivery will make sure of that.

Unless you want 1080P gaming with 3 hours of FMV, then blu -ray is a no goer.

 

[DECK'ARD]

It's almost as if Nintendo made that Zelda animation for specific use as a bail out gif in this thread.

It would have gone down well last night as well.

Let's keep it on stand-by for tomorrow ...

 

[Log4Girlz]

Ok, minimum acceptable specs time:

Heavily tweaked 4770 GPU
1 GB RAM (perhaps 256-512 MB of modern 1TSRAM)
Blu-Ray drive
at least 64 GB storage

Future-proofed specs

Heavily tweaked 4850 GPU
2 GB RAM (perhaps 1 GB of 1TSRAM)
Blu Ray Drive
at least 256 GB storage

 

[Net_Wrecker]

They won't stop. We have no fresh rumors. It's over.

I love the animation on that jump. If only Link's animations in gameplay could be that fluid.

 

[Kenka]

No, to infinity and beyond!

Don't take the risk to get banned now, you may miss E3.

Seriously though, gaming @ 1080p with a GPU those consumption is low enough to allow to be squeezed it in a portable may be a reality in 2012. By that time, how the F will care about R700 ? It would be both more expensive and less powerful.

Ok, minimum acceptable specs time:

Heavily tweaked 4770 GPU
1 GB RAM (perhaps 256-512 MB of modern 1TSRAM)
Blu-Ray drive
at least 64 GB storage

Future-proofed specs

Heavily tweaked 4850 GPU
2 GB RAM (perhaps 1 GB of 1TSRAM)
Blu Ray Drive
at least 256 GB storage

I don't agree on everything. The RAM may very well be high-quality as you wrote it but I seriously doubt all of this 4xxx AMD series GPU talk. We have Tegra, PowerVR and Loongson everywhere. If Nintendo goes the efficiency way, they are way better/cheaper options than a discounted desktop dual-GPU.

 

[jercruz]

Ok, minimum acceptable specs time:

Heavily tweaked 4770 GPU
1 GB RAM (perhaps 256-512 MB of modern 1TSRAM)
Blu-Ray drive
at least 64 GB storage

Future-proofed specs

Heavily tweaked 4850 GPU
2 GB RAM (perhaps 1 GB of 1TSRAM)
Blu Ray Drive
at least 256 GB storage

as long as it can run UE3 engine used for 360/PS3 games, i'm confident we'll get some pretty games. i'm actually waiting Epic's announcement or excuse whether their engine is Cafe-bound.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

Lets talk about game ideas instead of responding to his epoch-defining fuckwittery.

Kirby Eats the World
-----------------------
+ Screentroller acts as Kirby's stomach. He eats stuff on screen, and you tap it in his stomach for him to spit it back out into the world.
+ Open level design, light build-craft mechanics.

Dark Souls Omega
----------------------
+ Revamped version of the upcoming game.
+ Screentroller acts as summoning stone, collaborate with friends to summon a spirit that links 4-5 players into a world and lets them take on an area togther.

Mario
-------
+ Overhead map on the Screentroller lets you draw additional platforms with single touches.
+ Buy these platforms with Play Coins earned across console or 3DS
+ Use the Screentroller as a AR device with symbols on the television to navigate puzzle sequences.

 

[HYDE]

I love the animation on that jump. If only Link's animations in gameplay could be that fluid.

What would be even better, Link being able to jump.
Link's Awakening will always make the others feel akward.
I absolutely hate the automated jump that has been in place since A Link to the Past.

Imagine the ability to jump off a cliff, and then use the dual clawshots. We could forget Bionic Commando ever existed. Scratch that, Nintendo will read the second half and keep out the ability to jump. Better yet, imagine jumping off a cliff and then gliding with something like Roc's paraglider(cape).

 

[abstract alien]

Well Mario 3DS looks like being the obvious Mario 64+Galaxy hybrid, and shall be GLORIOUS.

I'd imagine Super Streaming Mario Bros. will end up multiplayer focussed, whether 2D or 3D.

What if it panned an additional camera behind Mario, and let you experience plumber's crack in true 1080p high definition at 240hz.

Being serious, it would be cool if he entered houses and things went side scrolling on the controller's screen (kind of like Four Sword Adventures). 3d big screen 2d little screen.

I'm no Miyamoto, but I can't really think of a way a more traditional Mario could benefit from streaming and a touch screen controller. There could be little touches, such as maybe doing some AR stuff to reveal hidden block on screen, maybe an additional dynamic viewpoint on the controller as you joked about, and such.

Maybe they will give him another weapon like FluDD(or how ever the hell it was spelled), that integrates the control design and the gameplay. Then again, Nintendo said they usually build there controllers off of gameplay ideas and mechanics they would want to use, so they probably had something in mind before they came up with the controller.

I love the animation on that jump. If only Link's animations in gameplay could be that fluid.

Seriously. I did a double take when I saw it and for a moment, thought it was a different game.