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[ugoo18]

In any case it looks like the Grinder was switched from FPS to a top down action shooter.... more of an XBLA or PSN class of title.

That was only for the PS360 versions, the Wii version remained as an FPS.

 

[Steph_E.]

Hi, everyone I’m yet another newbie. I’ve been lurking since E3 last year and read every post in the WUSTs (I need to get a life).

My introduction to gaming was on a Sinclair ZX81 (that gives away my age), followed by the Sinclair Spectrum, Atari ST and then PC. The only console I have ever owned is the Wii, which I bought solely due to motion control. Since the Wii is my only console I naturally wanted all multiplat games to come to it, and the same goes for the Wii U, which I will be buying day 1. This gen I have bought about 30 games for the Wii, and about 70% are 3rd party games, so I’m guessing that probably makes me a bit of a oddity.

I was looking forward to this year’s E3 but ended up spending all E3 week in hospital following a heart attack - and that was before I had seen the Wii U’s re-reveal. Like so many people I was disappointed with Nintendo’s conference, adding the lack of games like COD to the already known no-shows such as RE6, and Tombraider did not bode well for the Wii U. But gradually my mood has changed, and despite the notable absentees, there will be a good and wide choice of games. AC3, Darksiders, Batman, ZombiU, Pikmin, Nintendoland, Aliens CM, Lego City, ME3 and Rabbids. will probably all end up in my collection, and that is 10 games just from the ones already announced for the launch period.

Now I have a question, if you’ll bear with me a bit. Reading between the lines on Iwata’s reply to question 9 of the recent Q&A, I don’t think Nintendo want to include a Wii remote and nunchuk. However, I do think they intend to include a game with the Wii U. Now, Nintendo surely cannot presume every Wii U purchaser owns a Wii, so if Nintendoland is the game to be included in the package, then I think they have to include a Wii remote, otherwise a large part of the game is unplayable. So I think no remote = no Nintendoland. My question is: do you think Nintendo may have an as yet unannounced system selling concept mega-game playable on the pad only which they intend to include in the Wii U package, saving its announcement for the actual launch blowout?

 

[RadiantScene]

Are people seriously hyping HVS games again?

And no, Nintendo doesn't have to publish their games.

I will never, ever trust another HVS product again. Not a chance.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Sorry mate, missed the bold. Yeah, well that's how it sounds. if the ps3 has to be developed alongside for its CPU environment, WiiU is being deved alongside for its GPGPU environment, so why mention weak CPU comparison?

Wouldn't their 'creative solution' just be to use GPGPU processing, DSP and I/O chips ??

that's what it sounds like to me.

 

[lostinblue]

Well, that's pretty on the record official. Not even like the Cell where you can shift things to different cores! He makes it sound like a piece of shit basically!!

Has to be taken like a grain of salt.

Cell and Xenon are not good cpu's by desktop/laptop measures and yet this generation was optimized around them; this console can flunk a little at running code "as is" meant for them but be way more efficient running code meant for it, it's too soon to tell, I suspect ports aren't gonna make it justice though, since it's unlikely that whetstone performance is gonna be on par with PS3/X360; dhrystone's performance on the other hand...

It's certainly no powerhouse, but I find it hard not to tump over them in it's own game.

 

[10k]

Hi, everyone I’m yet another newbie. I’ve been lurking since E3 last year and read every post in the WUSTs (I need to get a life).

My introduction to gaming was on a Sinclair ZX81 (that gives away my age), followed by the Sinclair Spectrum, Atari ST and then PC. The only console I have ever owned is the Wii, which I bought solely due to motion control. Since the Wii is my only console I naturally wanted all multiplat games to come to it, and the same goes for the Wii U, which I will be buying day 1. This gen I have bought about 30 games for the Wii, and about 70% are 3rd party games, so I’m guessing that probably makes me a bit of a oddity.

I was looking forward to this year’s E3 but ended up spending all E3 week in hospital following a heart attack - and that was before I had seen the Wii U’s re-reveal. Like so many people I was disappointed with Nintendo’s conference, adding the lack of games like COD to the already known no-shows such as RE6, and Tombraider did not bode well for the Wii U. But gradually my mood has changed, and despite the notable absentees, there will be a good and wide choice of games. AC3, Darksiders, Batman, ZombiU, Pikmin, Nintendoland, Aliens CM, Lego City, ME3 and Rabbids. will probably all end up in my collection, and that is 10 games just from the ones already announced for the launch period.

Now I have a question, if you’ll bear with me a bit. Reading between the lines on Iwata’s reply to question 9 of the recent Q&A, I don’t think Nintendo want to include a Wii remote and nunchuk. However, I do think they intend to include a game with the Wii U. Now, Nintendo surely cannot presume every Wii U purchaser owns a Wii, so if Nintendoland is the game to be included in the package, then I think they have to include a Wii remote, otherwise a large part of the game is unplayable. So I think no remote = no Nintendoland. My question is: do you think Nintendo may have an as yet unannounced system selling concept mega-game playable on the pad only which they intend to include in the Wii U package, saving its announcement for the actual launch blowout?

I....I don't even know what those are.....How old are you? How young am I? Have I missed so much to life? What is the meaning of life? Am I an ignorant gamer.

I will never, ever trust another HVS product again. Not a chance.

This^ Conduit was an overhyped game that released during a slow summer of 2009 and had Matt Cassamisina licking HVS's balls especially with the 8.6/10 score lol.

Conduit 2 was awful. I played it for an hour and then traded it in.

For the consumers and for themselves. Nintendo doesn't want to take a loss on hardware. I can appreciate them wanting to "play it safe" as far as their business model goes. It's refreshingly non-suicidal!

Pshh, playing it safe and non-suicidal

GO BIG OR GO HOME!

Spoiler

Naw I agree with you haha. It's what's kept Nintendo afloat and profitable for years and it's worked pretty well so far.

 

[blu]

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/...processing-speed-low-compared-to-360-ps3.html

A fighter taxing the cpu is a tad unusual. Unless they do sw-based skinning or some kind of RTT post-processing. Regardless, chances are their sound middleware most likely has room for dsp-ization, so that could be something they might be currently catching up on.

Hi, everyone I’m yet another newbie. I’ve been lurking since E3 last year and read every post in the WUSTs (I need to get a life).

My introduction to gaming was on a Sinclair ZX81 (that gives away my age), followed by the Sinclair Spectrum, Atari ST and then PC.

That's way preferable than your name giving away your age ; )

 

[USC-fan]

Has to be taken like a grain of salt.

Cell and Xenon are not good cpu's by desktop/laptop measures and yet this generation was optimized around them; this console can flunk a little at running code "as is" meant for them but be way more efficient running code meant for it, it's too soon to tell, I suspect ports aren't gonna make it justice though, since it's unlikely that whetstone performance is gonna be on par with PS3/X360; dhrystone's performance on the other hand...

It's certainly no powerhouse, but I find it hard not to tump over them in it's own game.

That is not true, these are from 2005. Tri-core design and cell were beyond most desktop CPU for gaming. Even today going by the report even the wiiu cpu cannot match these designs.

At that time desktop dual core cpu just started coming out.

In a close system you are only has good as your weakest link. With the future console from sony and MS it only going to get worst on this cpu issue. We had many dev state the cpu is and will be a problem. The funny thing we have been so focus on the gpu side that we almost ignore the cpu.

Sources said graphical quality "won't be a problem" on Nintendo's new console, but a drop in CPU horsepower compared to 360 and PS3 could see Wii U lag behind in areas such as complicated physics and AI.

"We're still working on dev machines but there have definitely been some issues [in porting PS3/360 games]," our source said. "It's not actually a problem getting things up and running because the architecture is pretty conventional, but there are constraints with stuff like physics and AI processing because the hardware isn't quite as capable."

The same source concluded, bluntly: "I suppose you don't need sophisticated physics to make a Mario game."

http://www.computerandvideogames.co...-as-good-as-ps3-but-its-still-not-as-capable/

The one good thing out of this is the wiiu should be very very low cost hardware. I see then hitting that $250 price point or less without a game.

 

[Effect]

For the consumers and for themselves. Nintendo doesn't want to take a loss on hardware. I can appreciate them wanting to "play it safe" as far as their business model goes. It's refreshingly non-suicidal!

Which is understandable and something I really appreciate. However how much more would it cost for the processor to run faster so it at the very least matches the PS3/360 if it's the case of it being a touch weaker. They are said to be purposefully slowing it down, so it's not like they have to put in something new that would be expensive? Why handicap that part of the system when you know the competition won't or hasn't even with their current systems?

 

[Trevelyan9999]

I think the one thing to keep in mind is that the Wii U CPU is based on something new/custom and just because it's clocked a little lower than 5-6 year old CPU's doesn't mean it's less efficient.

This argument can go back to the GPGPU discussion.......taking grunt off the CPU. We also know that physics/AI will work really good on the Wii U after seeing the newest Havok engine and effects being adopted for the system.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

I think the one thing to keep in mind is that the Wii U CPU is based on something new/custom and just because it's clocked a little lower than 5-6 year old CPU's doesn't mean it's less efficient.

This argument can go back to the GPGPU discussion.......taking grunt off the CPU. We also know that physics/AI will work really good on the Wii U after seeing the newest Havok engine and effects being adopted for the system.

Exactly

 

[brainpann]

The leaked early dev kit document hinted that the system will have up to 1.5GB of system RAM, but Ideaman has recently stated that some companies were told by Nintendo that the retail version will have 2GBs.

Not sure I am following you. Yes, the Wii U will ship with 2GB ram but only 1.5GB will be accessible with 512MB reserved for OS. Hence 3GB being available in devkits. If this has changed and 2GB are supposedly available for devs, I wont complain.

 

[MadeInBeats]

I think the one thing to keep in mind is that the Wii U CPU is based on something new/custom and just because it's clocked a little lower than 5-6 year old CPU's doesn't mean it's less efficient.

This argument can go back to the GPGPU discussion.......taking grunt off the CPU. We also know that physics/AI will work really good on the Wii U after seeing the newest Havok engine and effects being adopted for the system.

But the point is, why are devs commenting on the weak CPU in the first place and talking about 'creative' solutions. Can harnessing GPGPU, DSP, I/O really be called 'creative'?? Isn't that just called a standard practice for the hardware.

I don't know, maybe reading too much into it, the translation. It's not exactly detail rich.

 

[Steph_E.]

I....I don't even know what those are.....How old are you? How young am I? Have I missed so much to life? What is the meaning of life? Am I an ignorant gamer.

The Sinclair ZX81 was a computer designed by Sir Clive Sinclair and released in 1981. It produced a black and white display only, and did not output sound at all. Programs were loaded from cassettes (and people complain about current hardware!). He produced the Sinclair Spectrum in 1982, which did have colour and sound. The Atari ST computer was released in 1985. I am 53, so I would bet I have a few years more gaming experience than most people on here!

As to your other questions:
No idea, but probably a bit younger than me. Yes, undoubtedly. 42.

 

[brainpann]

How many anonymous dev complained about the CPU? At this point, I can't honestly remember. Wasn't it only like 1 or 2? Those complaints could have been for a few reasons. I find it very hard to believe that Nintendo would use a weaker cpu than what is in current gen consoles.However, I do not find it hard to believe that Nintendo would use a cpu that is very efficient and not much more powerful than what is available on current gen platforms.

 

[lostinblue]

Abstract analysis.


PS3/X360:

3.2 GHz
POWER5 architecture (efficiency 2 DMIPS/MHz)
In-Order-Execution
2-way SMT
~32-Stage pipeline
1 MB L2 cache


Wii U:

x.x GHz (no freaking idea)
POWER7 architecture (efficiency 2.15 DMIPS/MHz?)
Out-of-Order-Execution (pretty much confirmed?)
No SMT (?)
~17-Stage pipeline (?)
3 MB L2 cache


Now, this generation had to do lot's of SMT (multithreading) because they couldn't do out-of-order execution so they had to branch out to other cores. This CPU, if out-of-order but without multithreading is another kind of beast altogether; flunking in SMT optimized code will be quite normal.

As for reasons to leave it out:

ARM states that it is considerably better to double your silicon area and stick two cores on, than it is to go for a more complex single core with SMT support, their reasoning being that a well-designed multi-core system, while bigger, will actually use less power. They claim up to 46% savings in energy over an SMT solution with four threads.

Also, moving an application to two threads on a single SMT-enabled core will increase cache-thrashing by 42%, whereas it will decrease by 37% when moving to two cores.

Source: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1037948/arm-fan-hyperthreading

Out-of-Order means more consumption than in-order execution, as does SMT as opposed to no SMT. Now, power consumption was certainly an issue with current gen, as they went with 2-way, not 4-way and they chose to leave out-of-order out. So it's all a matter of balancing, I suspect Nintendo's balancing to be very different from Sony/Microsoft because of how they effectively hampered general purpose performance on their cpu's with PS3/X360

Picking from the rumors we had with the wii u they're making exact oposite choices, some of them are clearly motivated by power issues (and heat) as SMT can have a 15 to 30% gain on performance; others seem to be valuing more what a regular cpu should be able to do (out-of-order being instrumental in that). On a side note: Current gen cpu's are a pain in the arse like the aforementioned cache trashing issue mentioned in the quote above, their in-order-execution nature means that there isn't dynamic branch prediction or cache miss prediction (that reaches 5% on PS3/X360) that crashes the whole pipeline and takes cycles to clean out.

In short, this gen hasn't been optimized with good cpu's in mind, it has been optimized for cpu's with crap general purpose performance, in-order-execution, lots of fillrate/FPU performance and written in a multithreaded yet not cpu branch-intensive way while being plagued by inconsistent performance (cache miss and other issues).

Dropping code in there meant for that kind of architecture will not run miraculously better; in fact the lack of SMT (if true) can certainly hurt it. Doesn't mean it's less powerful just yet though.

 

[Hoodbury]

Now I have a question, if you’ll bear with me a bit. Reading between the lines on Iwata’s reply to question 9 of the recent Q&A, I don’t think Nintendo want to include a Wii remote and nunchuk. However, I do think they intend to include a game with the Wii U. Now, Nintendo surely cannot presume every Wii U purchaser owns a Wii, so if Nintendoland is the game to be included in the package, then I think they have to include a Wii remote, otherwise a large part of the game is unplayable. So I think no remote = no Nintendoland. My question is: do you think Nintendo may have an as yet unannounced system selling concept mega-game playable on the pad only which they intend to include in the Wii U package, saving its announcement for the actual launch blowout?

I think we need to be careful when listening to Iwata when he talks about distribution. NoA seems to always do things a bit different than what Japan does when it comes to what is bundled and stuff like that.

When it comes to speculating what will be in the box, I think we need to focus on what Reggie says, not Iwata.

And if I remember correctly, at some off site E3 Q&A session, Reggie said something along the lines of they really want NintendoLand to be in as many houses as they can.

To me, that sounds like either as a pack-in game or some type of other bundle, maybe similar to what Wii-Play was.

Wasn't Wii-Sports a standalone game in Japan and not bundled with the Wii box? We need Reggie to talk some more. Hear more about NoA plans, as Japan could be totally different.

 

[lostinblue]

That is not true, these are from 2005. Tri-core design and cell were beyond most desktop CPU for gaming. Even today going by the report even the wiiu cpu cannot match these designs.

Hahahah. No.

They would take a beating out of a pretty much everything out there in general purpose, hence why before PS3 launch everyone was expecting AMD and Intel to follow it's design... And they didn't; why would they? What this gen did with CPU's has been totally ignored by everyone out there (taking the ill-fated Larabee aside; which your friend Carmack was kinda puzzled about).

The Cell favoured Floating point performance in spite of general purpose one, because Sony had their head up their arse (they actually considered going for a second CELL cpu and discard a GPU altogether) and IBM wanted to do a GFlop beast for their super-computers. X360? X360 took the Cell's PPE and triple-cored it, it's still shit in general purpose.

At that time desktop dual core cpu just started coming out.

For the masses sure (actually just before X360 was out), but you've had dual core designs out there for years by then; just kinda expensive.

In a close system you are only has good as your weakest link. With the future console from sony and MS it only going to get worst on this cpu issue. We had many dev state the cpu is and will be a problem. The funny thing we have been so focus on the gpu side that we almost ignore the cpu.

Probably (I shivered when reading "in a close system" btw, though you were gonna double somethings performance again ). Probably the only reason we're considering this CPU weak is because it doesn't behave like this generation's crappy cpu's.

Not to say it's a powerhouse. It's certainly not.

The one good thing out of this is the wiiu should be very very low cost hardware. I see then hitting that $250 price point or less without a game.

I'm betting $300 with or without software included. Don't forget it's more powerful to 2012 than what the wii was to 2006; and of course, the controller.

 

[jkou]

"As far as graphical processing and such, it's not much of an issue. But as far as the CPU goes, the clock is kinda low.

"I guess they're trying to keep power consumption down so we have to come up with creative ways to get around that and that's taking a little bit of time."

When asked whether it was lower than that of the Xbox 360 or PS3, he replied: "Maybe a little bit.


"For example on PS3 it was kind of difficult at first, but if you made good use of the different cores, you could split up the processing tasks and you could achieve very good effects. But this is kind of a different issue than that."

Before the above statement turns into "OMG WiiU worse than PS360 lol" :
CPU frequency =/= CPU performance (that only works in CPUs of the same family eg. Core i7 sandy bridge vs another Core i7 sandy bridge, etc. )
In general, I agree with blu, seems like they are used to splitting jobs to different cores on PS3's Cell (threads? on X360) and with the WiiU they need to efficiently do that and also use other chipsets for specific jobs since the CPU seems to have a different architecture. Unless a leak happens/someone gets a WiiU tears it down, i don't think we will be able to deduce the architecture/performance from comments like the above one.

 

[MadeInBeats]

Abstract analysis.


PS3/X360:

3.2 GHz
POWER5 architecture (efficiency 2 DMIPS/MHz)
In-Order-Execution
2-way SMT
~32-Stage pipeline
1 MB L2 cache


Wii U:

x.x GHz (no freaking idea)
POWER7 architecture (efficiency 2.15 DMIPS/MHz?)
Out-of-Order-Execution (pretty much confirmed?)
No SMT (?)
~17-Stage pipeline (?)
3 MB L2 cache


Now, this generation had to do lot's of SMT (multithreading) because they couldn't do out-of-order execution so they had to branch out to other cores. This CPU, if out-of-order but without multithreading is another kind of beast altogether; flunking in SMT optimized code will be quite normal.

As for reasons to leave it out:

Source: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1037948/arm-fan-hyperthreading

Out-of-Order means more consumption than in-order execution, as does SMT as opposed to no SMT. Now, power consumption was certainly an issue with current gen, as they went with 2-way, not 4-way and they chose to leave in-order out. So it's all a matter of balancing, I suspect Nintendo's balancing to be very different from Sony/Microsoft because of how they effectively hampered general purpose performance on their cpu's with PS3/X360

Picking from the rumors we had with the wii u they're making exact oposite choices, some of them are clearly motivated by power issues (and heat) as SMT can have a 15 to 30% gain on performance; others seem to be valuing more what a regular cpu should be able to do (out-of-order being instrumental in that). On a side note: Current gen cpu's are a pain in the arse like the aforementioned cache trashing issue mentioned in the quote above, their in-order-execution nature means that there isn't dynamic branch prediction or cache miss prediction (that reaches 5% on PS3/X360) that crashes the whole pipeline and takes cycles to clean out.

In short, this gen hasn't been optimized with good cpu's in mind, it has been optimized for cpu's with crap general purpose performance, in-order-execution, lots of fillrate/FPU performance and written in a multithreaded yet not cpu branch-intensive way while being plagued by inconsistent performance (cache miss and other issues).

Dropping code in there meant for that kind of architecture will not run miraculously better; in fact the lack of SMT (if true) can certainly hurt it. Doesn't mean it's less powerful just yet though.

The OoE efficient CPU posts are interesting and encouraging, but my question still remains: why did the Tekken producer feel the need to mention an issue with CPU performance? Why not just not mention it, and apply the supposed efficient tech architecture of the WiiU?

 

[Berg]

My question is: do you think Nintendo may have an as yet unannounced system selling concept mega-game playable on the pad only which they intend to include in the Wii U package, saving its announcement for the actual launch blowout?

I'm starting to think nintendo will include a U-shop gift card, maybe like 1000 point or $10. This will get people to go online and take advantage of the online shop.

 

[tkscz]

About the case size and keeping things cool though; what about this PS3 super slim? WiiU looks pretty phat to me, and they can only manage clock speeds 'maybe slightly lower' than 360? What?

Not exactly much detail in the interview, but if the GPGPU is meant to off-load the weak CPU, and the game is being developed alongside, ie, not a port, why mention they are having to come up with creative solutions to a weak CPU... Just doesn't add up.

Wouldn't using to GPGPU to program be a creative way around the CPU? This will be the first console with a GPGPU, so that would be something new.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

I think the one thing to keep in mind is that the Wii U CPU is based on something new/custom and just because it's clocked a little lower than 5-6 year old CPU's doesn't mean it's less efficient.

There's no way to spin this, it's terrible. There's also no more "why are we trusting anonymous devs?!?" excuse, the Tekken guy just outright publicly said it. Lower clocked than 2005 hardware (not "5-6" years old, but 7). Saying it might be more efficient doesn't make sense based on what he said, that they have to use creative solutions just to get it up to par. If it was more efficient and had some custom magic in it he wouldn't have said that. This is the Wii all over again.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Iwata has already addressed this issue.

While existing platforms have engines that development teams have tuned and optimized for six to seven years after their respective launches, the Wii U is a new platform that has slightly different architecture and, since development teams have only just begun development on software for it, they are only at the halfway point to utilizing its full potential,” Iwata said.

Link

 

[10k]

I....I don't even know what those are.....How old are you? How young am I? Have I missed so much to life? What is the meaning of life? Am I an ignorant gamer.

The Sinclair ZX81 was a computer designed by Sir Clive Sinclair and released in 1981. It produced a black and white display only, and did not output sound at all. Programs were loaded from cassettes (and people complain about current hardware!). He produced the Sinclair Spectrum in 1982, which did have colour and sound. The Atari ST computer was released in 1985. I am 53, so I would bet I have a few years more gaming experience than most people on here!

As to your other questions:
No idea, but probably a bit younger than me. Yes, undoubtedly. 42.

Haha, you got the digits mixed up. I'm 24 years old as of last month welcome to the boards oh Wise Sage of Nintendo

 

[Barack Lesnar]

How does that address the issue? lol

 

[Übermatik]

Sexy new(?) pic on the official FB page:

 

[lwilliams3]

The OoE efficient CPU posts are interesting and encouraging, but my question still remains: why did the Tekken producer feel the need to mention an issue with CPU performance? Why not just not mention it, and apply the supposed efficient tech architecture of the WiiU?

Tekken, as well as most console games, are designed around the 360/PS3's hardware strengths and weaknesses. Wii U is designed a bit differently, as the CPU is OOE, clocked a little lower, maybe less threads but more "lean", a lot better at general-purpose tasks, but not as good with FLOPS. It will take a bit for devs to adjust their engines to that, but not relying as much on the CPU on much for FLOPs and physics will likely be a characteristic for the other next-gen consoles as well.

 

[Fabrik]

Asymetric gameplay could bring new life to the Mario Kart franchise.

 

[snowdog1971]

Yeah, for sure. Hopefully Warner Bros. and EA don't say, "What? Batman and Mass Effect didn't sell 20 million? Eff the Wii U!"

Now, if ZombiU is a critical success, they would be realistic in wanting decent numbers. I'll be putting my money down.

For my thinking ZombiU, Rayman Legends, Assassins Creed 3 and Aliens Colonial Marines are key to the U getting continued third party support. They're the only four third party titles that aren't old ports as far as I remember. Good sales for those titles will show publishers that they can't get away with releasing half-arsed crap on the console like they did with the Wii.

I can definitely see ZombiU not only selling over 1m but also being a system seller, same goes for Lego City and Aliens Colonial Marines too.

 

[tkscz]

There's no way to spin this, it's terrible. There's also no more "why are we trusting anonymous devs?!?" excuse, the Tekken guy just outright publicly said it. Lower clocked than 2005 hardware (not "5-6" years old, but 7). Saying it might be more efficient doesn't make sense based on what he said, that they have to use creative solutions just to get it up to par. If it was more efficient and had some custom magic in it he wouldn't have said that. This is the Wii all over again.

No, no he's right. While a low clock speed is bad, architecture that handles data more efficiently, is always better than terrible architecture that's fast. A good example is the Intel i5 2500k compared to the AMD FX6100. AMD makes fast CPU's but the architecture in the Intel i5 2500k is just so much better that you could lower it's clock to 2.4GHz and it would still be better.

 

[D-e-f-]

Is their new facebook cover image. the black one takes a secondary position but it's still showing off both ... so they're really not backpedaling from the black unit. I hope they don't disappoint and really do launch in white AND black simultaneously.

 

[nordique]

I wonder if Nintendo joining with Namco-Bandai for the next Smash Bros games has anything to do with selling figurines and exploiting the NFC capabilities of the Wii U?

Even if its just collecting trophies or something small like that. It would be beneficial to consolidate efforts (development of game + potential toy line) together

Skylander's toy thing was huge.

 

[MDX]

Now I have a question, if you’ll bear with me a bit. Reading between the lines on Iwata’s reply to question 9 of the recent Q&A, I don’t think Nintendo want to include a Wii remote and nunchuk. However, I do think they intend to include a game with the Wii U. Now, Nintendo surely cannot presume every Wii U purchaser owns a Wii, so if Nintendoland is the game to be included in the package, then I think they have to include a Wii remote, otherwise a large part of the game is unplayable. So I think no remote = no Nintendoland. My question is: do you think Nintendo may have an as yet unannounced system selling concept mega-game playable on the pad only which they intend to include in the Wii U package, saving its announcement for the actual launch blowout?

I disagree, the Wii wasnt sold with multiple wiimotes, yet playing with the family and friends was promoted. I think every game shown can be played on the gamepad. But, the real fun comes with getting as many players involved. So I think this compels people to buy, if necessary, more wiimotes. Same goes for Rayman and Mario.

In other words, those that do not have extra wiimotes, have a reason to buy them.

 

[Captain Smoker]

For my thinking ZombiU, Rayman Legends, Assassins Creed 3 and Aliens Colonial Marines are key to the U getting continued third party support. They're the only four third party titles that aren't old ports as far as I remember. Good sales for those titles will show publishers that they can't get away with releasing half-arsed crap on the console like they did with the Wii.

I can definitely see ZombiU not only selling over 1m but also being a system seller, same goes for Lego City and Aliens Colonial Marines too.

Mass Effect 3, Ninja Gaiden and Batman are the only old ports. Ninja Gaiden 3 and Batman being modified versions.

Everything else is multiplatform or new.

 

[lwilliams3]

No, no he's right. While a low clock speed is bad, architecture that handles data more efficiently, is always better than terrible architecture that's fast. A good example is the Intel i5 2500k compared to the AMD FX6100. AMD makes fast CPU's but the architecture in the Intel i5 2500k is just so much better that you could lower it's clock to 2.4GHz and it would still be better.

It has been theorized that the Wii U CPU may be close in artitecture to the 476FP. They can not be clocked as high as xenon and does not support SMT, but they are OOE and are so lean that SMT wouldn't be that effective.

 

[Fourth Storm]

There's no way to spin this, it's terrible. There's also no more "why are we trusting anonymous devs?!?" excuse, the Tekken guy just outright publicly said it. Lower clocked than 2005 hardware (not "5-6" years old, but 7). Saying it might be more efficient doesn't make sense based on what he said, that they have to use creative solutions just to get it up to par. If it was more efficient and had some custom magic in it he wouldn't have said that. This is the Wii all over again.

In my eyes, the "creative solutions" comment is more damning than the information that the clock is low. It also sounds like the, "maybe, just a little" comment is covering his tracks because he fears he's already said too much. Everything is pointing to the 1-2 Ghz range.

I have to wonder what's going on in a Tekken game that is so CPU intensive. Sounds like they are confident it will turn out fine at least. I have to say, though, OoOE will not make up for all the shortcomings. From what I've read, it should be good for AI, but physics won't see much benefit, if any. Also, I think we can safely put the POWER7 speculation to rest. It's almost certain now that it was pure PR speak in reference to the 45nm process, eDRAM, and maybe some minor logic. If it was anything like a true POWER7 core, even at a low clock, we would not be hearing about these issues.

 

[D-e-f-]

I wonder if Nintendo joining with Namco-Bandai for the next Smash Bros games has anything to do with selling figurines and exploiting the NFC capabilities of the Wii U?

Even if its just collecting trophies or something small like that. It would be beneficial to consolidate efforts (development of game + potential toy line) together

Skylander's toy thing was huge.

I highly doubt that played a part in anything. They needed more people to get the game done quicker and with them having had a good history with NB and their experience with fighting games that was apparently a natural fit.

I don't think Namco Bandai Games has any involvement in Bandai's toys ventures.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

No, no he's right. While a low clock speed is bad, architecture that handles data more efficiently, is always better than terrible architecture that's fast. A good example is the Intel i5 2500k compared to the AMD FX6100. AMD makes fast CPU's but the architecture in the Intel i5 2500k is just so much better that you could lower it's clock to 2.4GHz and it would still be better.

How do we even know it runs more efficiently? Bottom line is that he wouldn't have stated they need to utilize "creative solutions" to get it up to snuff. He wouldn't have said that if what you're implying is true.

In my eyes, the "creative solutions" comment is more damning than the information that the clock is low. It also sounds like the, "maybe, just a little" comment is covering his tracks because he fears he's already said too much. Everything is pointing to the 1-2 Ghz range.

Exactly what I thought.

 

[RedSwirl]

So on the CPU clock issue, how much does the raw number actually count?

For instance, the PS3 and 360 CPUs are each clocked at 3.2GHz. My dad's last desktop was a 2004 dual core system that was also clocked at 3.2GHz. My current system is a 2007 desktop with a Q6600 which is a Quad-Core clocked at only 2.4GHz. Yet, I'm pretty sure my computer's overall performance is a lot better (aside from just the fact that it's also running an HD6850). What is that, other than the number of cores and other components?

The CPU and power. This all is a result of Nintendo wanting to keep the physical size of the console small right? I don't understand this at all. So because they refuse to clock it higher or at it's normal speed, put in an extra fan and maybe the shell a bit bigger (or is there more or something different they'd have to do?) they are going to screw themselves over in the end? I feared the Wii U might see a repeat of the Wii in terms of 3rd party support but for different reasons. Things look to be right on track for that though. I would not be surprised if Microsoft and Sony do something to their system to make downports to Nintendo all but impossible after a some time has passed. They already have the third party backing. The developers/publishers will likely keep up with the Sony/Microsoft/PC trinity once the new consoles are established and putting games on those three platforms first and foremost is to still be more cost effective then doing the extra work for Wii U.

They're probably don't want to release a $400 or $500 console like Sony and Microsoft probably will, and to some extent they're also looking at the Japanese market. Size and power draw are pretty important in Japan.

 

[Meelow]

So about the CPU, does this mean the Wii U won't be able to get PS4/720 multiplatform games in the future, or because of the much more powerful GPU it won't be a problem?.

 

[The Boat]

How do we even know it runs more efficiently? Bottom line is that he wouldn't have stated they need to utilize "creative solutions" to get it up to snuff. He wouldn't have said that if what you're implying is true.

He just said it's clocked not that it's less efficient. A change in architecture always means devs need to think differently than before.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

He just said it's clocked not that it's less efficient. A change in architecture always means devs need to think differently than before.

See the "creative solutions" point made above by me and fourth storm

 

[tkscz]

How do we even know it runs more efficiently? Bottom line is that he wouldn't have stated they need to utilize "creative solutions" to get it up to snuff. He wouldn't have said that if what you're implying is true.


Exactly what I thought.

How do you know he would've said that? The vagueness of what he said is huge, leaving room for any kind of interpretation.

See the "creative solutions" point made above by me and fourth storm

To me, "creative solutions" means that he, nor his team, knows the hardware yet, and sense the game was already programed for the 360/PS3, they have to think of a creative way to change the code asap, so the game can release at launch.

 

[lostinblue]

The OoE efficient CPU posts are interesting and encouraging, but my question still remains: why did the Tekken producer feel the need to mention an issue with CPU performance? Why not just not mention it, and apply the supposed efficient tech architecture of the WiiU?

Well if that analysis is accurate, then ports are guaranteed to suffer because they're designed for a very different solution in mind, lack of SMT is a kick in the groin.

Out-of-Order code is very branch intensive (it's part of the reason Valve was so outspoken against the CPU-tech on the console side when this generation begun), but code meant for in-order-execution won't benefit that much from out-of-order (it'll benefit a little mostly from less cache trashing and branch prediction, but that's all) on the other hand not having 2-way execution will hurt it big time, because without out-of-order it was relying heavily on multithreading. Now, multithreading is basically like having a second virtual cpu inside the cpu in an attempt to max out the rest of the cpu juice with more than just 1-way data execution; without that, in a 2-way tied software configuration, you'll instead use the other CPU cores available; meaning they could be using 2 CPU's in some capacity for what a single X360 CPU could do before; the leftover overhead will be different, yes; but hardly ideal. This wasn't really an issue on the cpu field (Pentium 4 introduced Hyperthreading, then Pentium M, Core Duo and Core 2 Duo lacked it; only 2008 with Nehalem architecture (Core i3/i5/i7) it returned, but then again PC software never assumed you had to have a multithreaded CPU; not the case here when for a whole generation that's all they had.

On the efficiency side though, I doubt Nintendo went with the offshoot CELL/PPE/Xenos architecture solution when the stage pipeline was lenghtned in order to achieve bigger clock rates (note how in 2005 there was no such thing as a Power5 CPU clocked at 3.2 GHz, anything surpassing 2.5 in a dual core config needing extreme cooling configurations on G5 Power Macs. They're probably left with a regular pipeline stage design. (I don't know exactly which, Pentium III had 10 stages, current i3/i5/i7 cpu's have 16 stages; PPC G5 had 16 stages as well; shouldn't exceed 17)

Anyway it should be quite a little more efficient; remember how initial Pentium 4 (netburst architecture) actually took a beating from Pentium III (and later AMD Athlon CPU's) to the point intel gave up on it and reverted to Pentium III pipeline (Pentium M that paved way to Core Duo architecture). The bigger pipeline stage the cpu has the worse performance per clock it'll have. One nice episode to express this was how P4 Northwood benchmarks took a beating on Prescott at the same clockrate, because due to the pipeline had been lenghtned again, making it hit the 31 stage number. Similarly, AMD Athlon xx00+ cpu series used to beat P4 while going at much lower speeds due to that.

I doubt there's something fundamentally wrong with the cpu they went with, but running code not meant for it better than the aforementioned platforms is certainly not apples to apples.

Kinda how it has been said that the MGS2 port on the Xbox suffered slowdowns because they were still running the rain particle system on the CPU. PS2's cpu was crap at cpu tasks, but all system's fillrate was there and thus it had more cpu fillrate than Xbox's Celeron could hope to achieve; doesn't mean the Xbox's cpu was worse when it came to cpu tasks. Anyway, happened before.

Why not just not mention it, and apply the supposed efficient tech architecture of the WiiU?

Most directors are not tech heads, most of the time they can only convey what engineers told them in simpler words sans technical jargon.

And an engineer won't rewrite the whole code in order for it to run more efficiently when it comes to a port; a port is a work of translating something in order for it to run, if possible they'll left as many things untouched as possible.

I wouldn't be surprised if lot's of developers are actually running audio tasks on the cpu whilst having a dedicated SPU for instance; it's never as simple as moving it to the dedicated DSP and expect it to work.

Tekken, as well as most console games, are designed around the 360/PS3's hardware strengths and weaknesses. Wii U is designed a bit differently, as the CPU is OOE, clocked a little lower, maybe less threads but more "lean", a lot better at general-purpose tasks, but not as good with FLOPS. It will take a bit for devs to adjust their engines to that, but not relying as much on the CPU on much for FLOPs and physics will likely be a characteristic for the other next-gen consoles as well.

Precisely.

 

[The Boat]

See the "creative solutions" point made above by me and fourth storm

Doesn't change my point.

 

[Meelow]

You know what's really weird.


Wii U has a “really great processor”, says Aliens: Colonial Marines director

I'm so confused...Only if he means a really great graphic processor lol.

 

[lwilliams3]

So about the CPU, does this mean the Wii U won't be able to get PS4/720 multiplatform games in the future, or because of the much more powerful GPU it won't be a problem?.

Funny enough, if the system was designed with a more general-purpose CPU + stronger GPU with good gpgpu capabilities, it may easier to handle ports from the next-gen consoles.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

To me, "creative solutions" means that he, nor his team, knows the hardware yet, and sense the game was already programed for the 360/PS3, they have to think of a creative way to change the code asap, so the game can release at launch.

Sounds like spin. He mentions it after stating the clock speed is lower, which means he was still on that negative tilt in the conversation so it's safe to assume "creative solutions" means what we said. You're taking it out of context.

 

[tkscz]

Sounds like spin. He mentions it after stating the clock speed is lower, which means he was still on that negative tilt in the conversation so it's safe to assume "creative solutions" means what we said. You're taking it out of context.

Yours sounds like spin to me.

You know what's really weird.


Wii U has a “really great processor”, says Aliens: Colonial Marines director

I'm so confused...Only if he means a really great graphic processor lol.

The release date on the WiiU version of A:CM was pushed back. I've always wondered why, but speculated that Gearbox realized that a direct port wouldn't be the best way to go by it, and decided to optimize it for the WiiU. Just my guess anyway.