Hope that with the approach of newer and more stable SDKs there'll be some general improvement.
Maybe with the usage of DSP that may be the cause of this bugs, correct me if i'm wrong.
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Wii U Community Thread
- Thread starter Metroid Hunter
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Hope that with the approach of newer and more stable SDKs there'll be some general improvement.
Maybe with the usage of DSP that may be the cause of this bugs, correct me if i'm wrong.
I would wager that's a good estimate. I'm sure there will be some launch games that don't use the DSP at all, and offload audio to the CPU like they do on 360. Hence the "discussion" we're having.
DeuceGamer
Member
I know this is a bit off topic but thought I'd let everyone know I received an email to pick out my Platinum Club Nintendo gift 
I'm sure someone will post a thread soon, but since I can't I thought I'd let all the Wii U spec peeps know
I'm sure someone will post a thread soon, but since I can't I thought I'd let all the Wii U spec peeps know
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
What kind of bugs, do you know that? I would assume they have worked out functionality and maintainability defects by now, but the truth is perhaps darker.
DeviousAngel
Member
I know this is a bit off topic but thought I'd let everyone know I received an email to pick out my Platinum Club Nintendo gift
I'm sure someone will post a thread soon, but since I can't I thought I'd let all the Wii U spec peeps know
You very late, son
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=480757&page=23
I'm new to most of this, can you explain to me why the R700 is not good at running compute shaders? I don't want anyone else to explain it, just you.
DeuceGamer
Member
Wow, I looked too and didn't see it. I think I'm missing where the search feature is on this forum.
EDIT: I see now. It was the Club Nintendo Thread. Didn't realize they posted inside that thread
So what does this mean?.
DeviousAngel
Member
Google search, surprisingly, works well most of the time
Edit: Just for clarifications purposes, neoGAF's search is always at the very top. I don't use it that often for topics, but it comes in handy when
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Apropos remind me, please, wasn't it 2.03 that introduced the linkage-breaking GHS 5.3.10?
MadeInBeats
Banned
nordique
Member
*thumbs up + beer for this man*
lostinblue
Banned
Sorry, that's the thing, we don't really know.
Have you ever thought OpenCL and GPGPU ar derived from CUDA? We don't know how optimized AMD/ATi cards are when it comes to API and drivers. Take this as an example, PC Nvidia OpenGL drivers are still better than AMD/ATi's, but that doesn't seem to have played a part on consoles. We don't know how code written specifically for these architectures behaves; ATi actually changed VLIW5 to VLIW4 not because VLIW5 was ineffective but because the 5-way overhead was almost never used so they'd rather use the silicon spared by that extra stage to be used in more stream processors. There's no telling (at least I don't know) if you have a closed platform that is 5-way if that overhead is gonna be ignored; I mean it's still there.
Closed architecture allows you to cater specifically for the platform in question; and there's not much you can't do on DirectX 10 but can do on DirectX 11, for example. (DirectX 11 is more about better/faster execution than it is about being able to do stuff you couldn't)
This is also the main difference between shader model 4 and 5.
And yes, there's a relation to GPGPU functions because it happens in the same place (stream processors), but compute shader doesn't really mean that it's now "awesome" to run general purpose code; it's like saying a cpu is good at general purpose because it's whetstone performance is good. The gpu could be crap at OpenCL and still be very respectable at SM5.0. Apples to oranges; you have to put everything into perspective unless it means exactly that; good compute shader performance doesn't mean it's good for taking over general purpose tasks from the cpu; for I don't see my cpu doing shaders; these units were first and foremost and still are, meant for graphics, not general purpose, it just happens that the expanding of it's power and functions actually opened the door to execute them in a more viable way.
Not really.
What I said is, the VLIW architecture didn't stop at R7xx and for all purposes when Nintendo was known to be using it there wasn't much difference in GFlop/watt in that architecture; even if the feature set was a little behind. Point being, putting those features in there wouldn't be that hard, as they can be backward applied on the very same architecture they were already applied. Do you even know the difference between previous shader models? I haven't read SM5 documentation but I'm guessing it's a forward evolution with more instruction slots and registers; the usual.
Those changes are like making a custom cpu with extra wide registers or something; certainly doable in a custom design.
What I said is that even if that wasn't revised for it, most of the things we're talking about are viable; after all it's not like Shader Model 5/Direct X 11 is regarded as ground breaking. It's more of a matter of optimizing for the architecture in question.
Remember how Bioshock required SM3? It was backported without much effort, the team just didn't do it, but they could easily do so, if it was for a console (closed platform) release. Point being: it'll still be a modern gpu, and thus stuff can be scaled down for it.
Call it a pre-emptive strike if you will, because unlike your reasoning I'm not gonna claim it's sm5, or how likely it is. I don't really care to make a guess so I'm covering both bases.
Being R7xx based doesn't tell us much tbh; everything excluding the GCN architecture (77xx and 79xx) can be considered R7xx based; it's not that clear cut; they were more about adding peripheral stuff and adding to what was there than changing the core.
DeviousAngel
Member
Here, you can lend mine.
This post, coupled with Sean Connery's fantastically smug expression, made me giggle like a school girl :3
With the whole Bandai-Namco developing Smash Bros. thing, didn't someone post about Nintendo trying to convince Bandai-Namco to release a new mothership Tales game on Wii U? I hope so and I hope this thing which was posted on Go Nintendo is true:
Namco Bandai considers Tales of the Abyss a success in Europe
It was paraphrased a bit, because I'm more inclined to believe that B-N just had a very limited print available in Europe.
Namco Bandai considers Tales of the Abyss a success in Europe
It was paraphrased a bit, because I'm more inclined to believe that B-N just had a very limited print available in Europe.
R700 as we know it can't produce Pikmin 3's visual effects, and here is why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRYt9pb1xCU I'll let AMD explain it to you ~4 minutes into this video.
"Our post-processing approach is to expand the input pixels, then spread the pixels to form an output image. We call this novel technique filter spreading. A direct application of filter spreading, however, is not fast enough to be used in real time, even on the fastest graphics hardware available."
"Our method, which leverages the Radeon HD 5000 series of GPUs and the features of DirectX 11, implements filter spreading using a "constant time" filter, that is, performance is the same regardless of the size of the filter. This technique gives a more visually pleasing depth-of-field effect than previous implementations seen in games, while being processable in real-time."
And here we can see Depth of field being used repeatedly through out Pikmin 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxWIvaD2XQI
DeviousAngel
Member
Cool, I hadn't seen this before. And yes it does explain why depth of field looks so natural in Pikmin 3 and even P-100.
Nice, do you have a link to the post that said the comment about Tales Wii U?, and considering Tales of Abyss sold amazingly well on 3DS that could convince Namco to put Tales on Wii U.
lostinblue
Banned
I'd bet on "no". They recently said their userbase is on PS3 and PS Vita (what? lol :|) so they won't discard them.
Source: http://jpgames.de/2012/07/our-interview-with-tales-of-producer-hideo-baba/
I'd bet either on timed exclusives that will come out with way more content on Playstation consoles a year later (every customer already expects it to do just that too after vesperia and graces; so it might as well hamper sales of any Tales exclusive in a non-sony platform) our best bet is cross platform at most.
Yes, ShockingAlberto posted in the Smash/Namco thread a few weeks ago or so that Nintendo wanted a mothership Tales game on Wii U.
Maybe now they will consider to put Tales of Xillia 2 on the Wii U.
Want!
And what @ Lostinblue's comment. I get that Tales fans in Japan are anchored to Playstation home consoles, but Vita? Come on Baba, that's a load of bull.
MadeInBeats
Banned
My MI5 standard issue one blew up a few posts back, this works just as well! Just can't use the laser beam to spook the dog any more.
That video chilled me out so much. Just feel like wondering around that meadow now, naked.
There are hardware differences between dx10.1 and dx11. We can talk about what if all day but again we have nothing saying they move from anything besides r700 feature set. The sdk leaks matching exactly. And I dont believe they need to more to more adavance feature set.
Maybe I'm missing something but Depth of field is used in x360 games like halo 3 for example.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/halo-3-lacks-depth-of-field
lostinblue
Banned
I didn't say they did. In fact it's because of responses like this that I actually covered both scenarios.
Actually, really short reply seeing I lost quite a bit of time elaborating on this. Oh well.
It's easy to see why they're anchored there.
Even if I preferred to have a Tales game on another platform I'd know by now that unless it's released alongside, if it is what they call "exclusive" it will be ported and enhanced exclusively for a playstation console within a year.
I mean, even Tales of Innocence, a Alfa System developed game for DS; it's like they have a "no game can come outside of the Playstation brand and stay there" policy (not applicable to any other manufacturer, obviously). Of course Tales fans will have Sony platforms; but then again, no palpable userbase is on the PS Vita now. PSP yeah, I bet they are, they released 8 Tales games there after all.
"We do have depth of field in the game, but right now, it's only being used (with any great visibility) in the UI [user interface] and in cinematics - because one of Halo's key functions is the idea of long distance combat,"
UI is hardly real time intensive, and is easily handled by DX9 thanks to blur. Blur effects also are not depth of field, while depth of field can be faked with blur, it's no where near as natural looking or easy to blend with foreground objects. The quotes I used in my last post are directly from AMD's own tech demo, and can be viewed directly in that video.
hmmm "because one of Halo's key functions is the idea of long distance combat," It doesnt sound like a tech problem. Sound like a game design.
Also bf3 uses depth of field. So your saying its a better depth of field that couldnt be done on only dx11 hardware. Seem like a big leap...
Here is an other video on a PS3 depth of field
http://www.ign.com/videos/2008/01/24/backbreaker-playstation-3-trailer-depth-of-field-hd
BF3 on 360: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Oj7J4G9QM (just a random video of metro) I do not see the DoF apparent in the PC version... When you die it does blur the edges of the screen? I mean maybe I'm nitpicking, but blurring has never been hard to do, and that is all that looks like, while on the PC it's clearly a depth of field effect.
While that is certainly a video of "depth of field" it's pretty clear to say that that is a barebones, slow motion (low framerate) demo, it's also an Nvidia card, which did depth of field in a completely different way than ATI if I remember correctly (before DX11 of course) the main point is AMD said itself that cards before R800, including R700, were not able to do depth of field without being HUGELY costly and was really not suitable for real time effects. Halo's team can say that they didn't use it for this reason or that, but the fact is: AMD said "here is a DX11 feature" and we clearly see that feature in Pikmin 3, in a way that is obviously not just the blur effect we were getting this generation.
lostinblue
Banned
Neither do I, but I expected you to tackle something in there seeing how stubborn you seem to be.
Regarding a lynching mob I agree you're not in a good position; I'd say justified for past assumptions and I also throw some jabs occasionally mostly because I find it tongue in cheek to do and you didn't react badly to them, but it's still not a good position to be when trying to make a point; not to say I think the core reasons for it to happen have changed because you tend to make assumptions. (also know that I didn't reply any differently than I would had it been any one else)
Then again I always agree to disagree, not a good policy to go in circles; we have that in common I guess.
As for DoF trying to steer clear of that one.
DeviousAngel
Member
Amen to this a million times.
The game is already god tier but besides the visual upgrade, just imagine what you could do with the GamePad. The obvious stuff would be real-time item selection with menu touch controls (OoT3D), some much needed decluttering (clock on the Pad, for example), gyro aiming, etc. But that's only the beginning. The bomber's notebook could be repurposed into a daily planner, where you can decide which tasks to complete in each cycle, keep track of quests, appointments, to-dos, special events, NPCs' routines, or just write notes/hints. You could even set an alarm to bring items in your planner to your attention. Other things like placing beacons (ala Skyward Sword) or drawing on the world map (Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks) also come to mind.
MM is a game that requires some forward thinking and organization. I think the reason it put off so many people at first is because, with so many things going on, things can get a little out of hand. The gamePad has the potential to lessen the stress associated with keeping track of Termina's happenings, and to encourage the player to distribute their time intelligently. Perhaps then they can find some enjoyment in this awesome game.
So yes, I think MM would be perfect on WiiU.
Trying to find a real DX11 feature that DX10.1 cards can't do is hard, and it's also hard to tell the difference between a simple blur effect and the DoF seen in the lady bug tech demo, Pikmin 3 does seem to do Depth of field all over the screen, and not just in an area, which is pretty much the only way I can spot it, when the flying bug in the pikmin video is blurred and slowly comes into focus in the center of the screen as it's moving away from it, well that to me is obviously the lady bug effect, there are plenty of other parts in the video that point it out too, dead leaves and subtle spots... It clearly doesn't look to be effecting performance either, which is another indicator that it's AMD's DX11 effect, and not the post processing effect used in older cards.
It's always been hard to point out something and clearly say THIS, THIS CAN'T BE DONE WITH DX10.1, but Depth of Field is the only one that I really know about, and Pikmin is littered with examples, and the lady bug demo is also sort of famous.
tkscz
Member
Show me DoF as Dynamic as this on the 360/PS3
No really, do it so I can pick up the game it's in.
lostinblue
Banned
Well to be fair, depth of field is fillrate intensive but can be done on pretty much any platform now. There's various kinds of techniques to achieve it though so it's not apples to oranges; kinda like noting that the motion blur this gen would be intensive for a last gen 128-bit console, but we had N64 games that used motion blur before, different kind of blur.
DoF on Pikmin 3 seems really good, and not in a tiled way. I'm certain it can be pulled elsewhere but it could be really cheap on this platform compared to PS3/X360 or more advanced. I haven't seen the AMD explanation video as I'm studying so I can't take the time to do it (I actually wanted to, but I'm drawing the line there).
Anyway doesn't mean it's using a specific hardware feature, the extra fill rate and a custom shader could probably fill in for it depending on how many resources they're willing to allocate to it.
On a sidenote The Last Story does pretty good (for the Wii) DoF considering it's 2001 architecture:
Certainly scripted, but pretty badass.
MadeInBeats
Banned
Hahaha... P-100 makes extensive use of DoF too... Apparently only looks like an XBLA game though :'(
lostinblue
Banned
P-100 looks really good up close and running actually, I was surprised the other day when I saw it.
Its being made from the ground and it really shows. Possibly my most antecipated wii-u game.
lostinblue
Banned
Heh, when reading this I was actually thinking about that boss coming into focus scene.
Yeah, the DoF looks really good, but it can be benefited by SM4 and the extra fillrate alone. would suffice to make it look better than 2005 platforms in a sustainable way.
It really is, the difference is mostly about performance; if that's in all the better reason for them to abuse it with Pikmin 3. I'm really gonna see that AMD video when I can.
More than Pikmin 3? NONSENSE!
Really though, aside from the scaled-up-Wii-game look the game is sporting. Pikmin 3, so far, looks like the perfect addition to the Pikmin series and it was exactly what I was expecting, can't wait!
EDIT: well maybe not the perfect sequel, but pretty damn close.
MadeInBeats
Banned
Was taking the Michael mate, lol, seen the Nin World videos and it clearly pulls off some nice effects. The DoF effects almost make it look like a real little model town. The things you'd think were true if you listened to some of the experts around here ;-p
Since we're on the subject of depth of field, I would like to add Lego City Undercover also employs it.
For me personally, I think Lego City Stories is the best graphically looking game seen so far... looks stunning.
You are certainly more knowledgeable about this sort of thing than I am, but I do think Pikmin 3 shows of that lady bug demo, while stuff like the above (while awesome) clearly isn't anything like it, though they roughly give the same effect. It's certainly hard to find a DX11 effect, especially with what we saw at E3 this year, but the more I watch that Pikmin video, the more it looks like the lady bug effect, as for the AMD explaination, the video I posted a few posts back does explain it and I quoted what I could, but there is more, the explaination part is short (only about 2mins, and it starts about 2 or 3 minutes in) We've heard from quite a few sources that say the GPU is 2012, and it's feature rich, even arkam said as much and he was the first dev we had that really told us what to expect out of the Wii U.
You can find it here:
http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/39686/hd-wii-games-would-look-and-play-better-on-wii-u-than-many-current-titles-dev/
Along with the quote which is amost troll bait:
Joking and consoles aside, this kind of thinking is what other developers need to learn.
Silas Lang
Member
Wow, that looked pretty awesome. Thanks for sharing! I would certainly wouldn't object to that, although I would still prefer a new installment.
Since we're on the subject of depth of field, I would like to add Lego City Undercover also employs it.
It looks very cool. I think the view on the town in the background is very good. It's definitely one of most anticipated title coming to Wii U along with P-100.
lostinblue
Banned
Yes, my point was that once one effect is regarded as popular (or necessary) it's possible to somewhat match it with less resources, or by investing lots of hardware resources on pulling it (some times both).
Kinda like Valkyrie Profile 2 pulled it on PS2 cutscenes:
Of course, as you can notice, it's tiled and not that high quality, but it works.
Virtua Tennis 4 on PS3 is also not that hot:
But the quality of the samples has a lot to do with available resources.
Of course, Pikmin 3 is miles and bounds ahead of this, so it's either up to fillrate limitations and RAM/framebuffer of the previous consoles or it really has hardware support for more advanced DoF/less pricy DoF (also: both). The later is likely, specially going by what the AMD video is supposed to be telling.
That's really good to know actually.
DaSorcerer7
Member
Wait...is this real? as in, not fan made?
GameplayWhore
Member
I know it's painful to read the comments on that website, but you have my permission to read descriptions of videos. You know, like where it is written "fake or legit leak?".
;P
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