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Wii U Community Thread
- Thread starter Metroid Hunter
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If we can get a closer look at that sticker, we can see how much power the Wii U uses. TDP. We can make somewhat more informed estimates of the hardware.
bgassassin
Member
For the latter the only logical assumption I can think of is something like that wasn't readily available I don't think it was officially announced till last May. Though my take wasn't that it would be the base, but that Wii U's GPU would be share ideas in design. Also I came across a PDF with performance info for the e6760. That little booger has a 3DMark Vantage P score of 5870 according to them. That surprised me. For comparison I found one for a 4830 and it was 6223.
When taking everything we know and have heard, it feels like Nintendo's intent with Wii U's design was to, at its base, to be able to handle PS360 ports till devs would be willing and able to depend more on the GPGPU in the future.
Speaking hypothetically I still believe the first kit used a slightly modified Xenon. The early comparison was way too much like it for me personally to believe other wise. Once the second kit came out it saw its first shift to an OoO CPU. Vigil is on record as saying there were things the did with the first kit that they couldn't do with the second kit. At this point it's plausible (and maybe even later than that) that the type of GPU Nintendo was planning to have wasn't "up to par" at this point. However Nintendo underestimated the power the CPU needed, or underestimated the dependency developers had and still currently have on the CPU. In Nintendo's mind they felt it would be ok once the GPGPU was ready. What they learned over time was that the CPU as is wasn't cutting it. By the time the fifth kit comes out, Nintendo goes through the extended tweaking phase to get the hardware up to snuff and tries to address the CPU problem. Most likely through software.
Looks like the fifth thread is where it came up. And I agree with your assessment (though for me it wouldn't be a base). And I posed in the B3D GPU thread that if we are looking at a GPGPU then maybe the way the compute tasks are handled by the GPU are what Nintendo modified. Lighting being a part of that. One thing is certain is that I don't believe it will be accomplished through compute units.
Apophis2036
Banned
Oh grow up and stop being in denial, where at E3 did you see a game for Wii U that made you say 'wow this is a real step up from the PS360', never mind say 'wow !, now this is the next generation', thats right you didn't.
Those games were Watch Dogs, Star Wars 1313, UE 4 tech demo, Crysis 3 gameplay and the FF tech demo and they were all running on super high end gaming rigs.
Expecting games on par with those on the $400 PS4 / 720 is fullish imo so to expect them on Wii U which at this point, again going on rumours / leaks is at least three times as weak as those consoles is just madness.
Im not trolling i have posted in the WUST since part 3, im just trying to keep peoples expectations in check.
Do you really think Wii U can handle triple A multi platform games until even 2014 with those specs, because i don't.
I'm not sure how they could increase the performance of the CPU through software unless, they had built in the ability to overclock or something like that in the firmware and then enabled that.
It think it will. It's just that they won't look as good.
bgassassin
Member
Well that part was looking at it from a certain perspective based on wsippel's compiler info. And more about increasing efficiency than a raw performance increase.
Same.
Apophis2036
Banned
I hope you are right for the sake of the many people who will buy Wii U as their only console and want to enjoy the big third party titles next gen.
I just don't think developers will be bothered enough to go to the trouble of down scaling everything from the rumoured up to three times more powerful PS4 / 720.
A lot of people will have a Wii U for first party games and play their third party games on either a PC, PS4 or 720.
As the third party games get further and further away from what they look and run like on the other two next gen consoles when compared to the Wii U versions as the generation progresses, the sales will continue to fall on Wii U imo and cause yet more developers to come up with excuses as to why it doesn't get ports.
Whatever happens, whether it's Winter 2012, or Winter 2013 (depending on launch price) i know i will be enjoying some amazing first party games on Wii U !
.Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
The Gamecube was $100 cheaper than the Xbox yet it could still run most games more or less on par with Xbox.
If peoples expectations are too low, don't you fear it will end up as a self-fulfilling prophecy?
What specs? We still don't know exactl;y what they are and the ones we do have a semi-firm confirmation on say it is quite capable, with 1.5-2 GB of RAM, 32MB of edram, a GPGPU chip, and a tessellation unit.
Apophis2036
Banned
Ask BG as he seems to know all the leaked specs, what is it so far BG ? -
Wii U - (rumoured price $300) -
CPU - IBM Tri Core CPU.
Ram - 1.5 - 2GB of GDDR 3 Ram.
GPU - 400 - 700 FLOP GPU.
8GB Flash Drive.
PS4 - (rumoured price $400) -
AMD 4 Core CPU.
2GB GDDR 5 Ram.
1800 FLOP GPU.
Massive HDD.
720 - (rumoured price $400) -
AMD 4 Core CPU.
AMD Dual Core CPU (for Kinect 2).
Xenon Tri Core CPU (for 360 BC).
1500 FLOP GPU.
2GB GDDR 5 Video Ram.
4GB GDDR 3 System Ram.
Massive HDD.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
JordanN
Banned
Edit: I don't know Xbox numbers but for Gamecube it had a 8 gflop gpu and 1.9 gflop cpu.
But as Bg said, you're comparing Intel with IBM which wouldn't be accurate.
bgassassin
Member
I've said it before, but effort should be the real concern when it comes to ports not power.
[
Third party games, primarily multi-plat titles will have a limit to how far they can go on the next consoles because they won't seek to push the hardware to the same level as an exclusive can and will.
Totally different architectures so the comparison itself wouldn't matter.
I hope you are right for the sake of the many people who will buy Wii U as their only console and want to enjoy the big third party titles next gen.
I just don't think developers will be bothered enough to go to the trouble of down scaling everything from the rumoured up to three times more powerful PS4 / 720.
A lot of people will have a Wii U for first party games and play their third party games on either a PC, PS4 or 720.
As the third party games get further and further away from what they look and run like on the other two next gen consoles when compared to the Wii U versions as the generation progresses, the sales will continue to fall on Wii U imo and cause yet more developers to come up with excuses as to why it doesn't get ports.
Whatever happens, whether it's Winter 2012, or Winter 2013 (depending on launch price) i know i will be enjoying some amazing first party games on Wii U !
Shit, I hope I'm right too (I do vassilate on this a bit even I have a smidgen more confidence that it will be OK) because I'm looking to be a one console man next generation and I want it a good outcome as far as third parties go. Because I have a young family that I want to introduce into gaming in the coming generation, Wii U already is a preferred platform. I also love Zelda and Metroid which are more points in its favour. But I really, really, (did I say REALLY) don't want a Wii situation again. It could very well be my last Nintendo console if it ends up that way.
Developers being bothered is out of Nintendo's hands. They can "encourage" them with financial assistance but I don't think Nintendo would be too keen on doing that for every damned port.
We don't really know how the competition will stack up and whether they are going to be so far ahead as to make downports impossible. And we won't know that for another year. Maybe sooner if MS and Sony start talking about their machine and letting devs announce their titles.
Nope. The opposite is true, if you believe the majority rumors.
Very good position to take. The ignore button is your friend and can save you a lot of unnecessary grief, in the long-run. I've been here 7 years, and still have to pull myself back in a lot of Wii U threads. Some responses just aren't worth making, as they 1) probably won't care what is "reasonable" or "logical," anyways, and 2) anonymity + internet =
http://daily-grind.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/greaterinternetfuckwadtheory.jpg
gamergirly
Member
After reading some more replies, Im beginning to wonder if MS and Sony's systems will even be what people are expecting. I don't expect them to follow Nintendo but next gen might not be the "higher level" that is being speculated.....
From what BG says, the difference will be noticeable. How people interpret that is up to them.
Bamstrokher
Banned
Welcome aboard !.
I think the power talk stems from the fact that quite a few of the regular posters on these threads want the Wii U as their only console next gen, for it to be able to run multi platform games well into 2015 it will have to be at a certain power level to be able to run even basic versions of things like Unreal Engine 4.
From what has leaked, and from what we saw at E3 this seems not to be the case at all.
That Zelda demo from E3 2011 also has a lot to answer for, people waited a whole year to see either more of that style of game or a 3D Mario, Mario Kart, Metroid, Smash Bros, F Zero, Starfox ect with those levels of HD visuals and what we got was an up ported Wii game Pikmin 3, NSMB U, Project P-100 and Zombi U.
If you're a Nintendo fan you know how it goes im afraid, i wanted Wii U to be in hardware terms a 4 core IBM CPU clocked at around 3Ghz, have 2GB's of GDDR5 Ram and have at least a 1 teraFLOP GPU with a standard controller, Pikmin 3, Starfox and F Zero for launch with the promise and trailers of Zelda, 3D Mario, Smash Bros and Metroid in 2013/14/15, i would have gladly paid £400 for it on launch day had that been the case.
You can't always get what you want tho, esp when it comes to Nintendo but i think in a strange way that is why we love them
Thanks for the welcome! I think we both are thinking along the same lines for the most part. I think Wii U will be as powerful as I need it to be, maybe a little bit moreso than some people think. I think you probably think it will fall short of where you want it to be. Time will tell which of us is right or wrong.
However, I am not under any illusions about it running the most cutting edge stuff three or four years from now. The truth is, most of the games I have played that focus on that kind of photo-realism bore me anyways. Everybody oohed and ahhed about Crysis, but I thought that game really bored me to tears. Whereas Borderlands, which had a cartoony style, suited me perfectly.
The proposition is an easy one for those people who are either on the fence or completely off of it about getting Wii U, because of it's perceived lack of grunt. Wait several years, pick one up used for really cheap. I mean if people feel like it is Soooooooo underpowered they just can't pay full price, then the solution is to wait and buy one, instead of coming to GAF and just shitting all over something that hasn't even hit the market yet and trying to make other people feel terrible.
P.S. I am not talking about you in that last paragraph
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
Found this interview by Rev3Games about Pikmin 3. In it the Nitnendo Rep confirms that they are not showing the game with Gamepad controls right now because its still be worked on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17l6L9iRnDA
In the video I noticed that the Power Brick was exposed (with the label facing up):
Also, I browsed over to this clip from an Italian outfit at one of the Euro Wii U events...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17l6L9iRnDA
In the video I noticed that the Power Brick was exposed (with the label facing up):
Also, I browsed over to this clip from an Italian outfit at one of the Euro Wii U events...
r700 support GPGPU but really it doesnt matter.
No where have anyone said anything about GPGPU. Its people reading between the lines and now only this crazy idea about GPGPU comes out because leaks about the cpu not being powerful.
A lot of wishful thinking and just building people up for disappointment. Seems like people would have learned at E3.
Wiiu doesnt need to be some beast. It will be the most powerful console out for likely 2 years. People comparing it to the next gen from ms/sony are just setting themselves up for disappointment.
No where have anyone said anything about GPGPU. Its people reading between the lines and now only this crazy idea about GPGPU comes out because leaks about the cpu not being powerful.
A lot of wishful thinking and just building people up for disappointment. Seems like people would have learned at E3.
Wiiu doesnt need to be some beast. It will be the most powerful console out for likely 2 years. People comparing it to the next gen from ms/sony are just setting themselves up for disappointment.
bgassassin
Member
It will definitely be noticeable, but if Treyarch can do this with completely out-dated hardware then there shouldn't be any real excuses when it comes to Wii U's hardware IMO based on what's known about the other two consoles.
The GPGPU rumor came from B3D.
This is irrelevant to the current discussion (but relevant to the one in the "priced 'reasonably'" thread.
I don't understand why some are really sure that a Wii Remote Plus will be packed in with the console. Maybe I'm dismissing something reasonable, but the interviews seem to support that they won't be included...
I don't understand why some are really sure that a Wii Remote Plus will be packed in with the console. Maybe I'm dismissing something reasonable, but the interviews seem to support that they won't be included...
Oh I know how it got "started" Im on beyond3d every day. Some people read things they dont understand and spin it into something its not.
"There are several reasons why people are concluding that the Wii U has a GPGPU:
1) Prophesy2k's post stated that the GPU has compute support
2) The "leaked" document of Wii U's dev kit stated "compute shader support." Other insiders has said that several pieces in this document matches the info that they have seen before.
3) The first two pieces of evidences are backed up by the anonymous developers that was complaining about the CPU. One of them even said "I suppose you don’t need sophisticated physics to make a Mario game." This info would make sense if the Wii U's GPU was suppose to handle physics instead of the CPU. If this is the case, the Wii U has a GPGPU."
The r700 has compute support / compute shader support. That doesnt mean anything.
hdd dont take much power. Someone needs to get a picture of the words on the power supply. That will tell us A LOT!
bgassassin
Member
EDIT: You're right. I misremembered it.
That still doesn't eliminate it from being a GPGPU if Nintendo intended for it to compensate for the CPU.
We know it has "gpgpu support" but that doesn't mean anything at all. By gpgpu of course that just means compute shader support which we have known about for a long time.
bgassassin
Member
Ok I'm getting confused now. So the following is a serious question. What qualifies to you as being a real GPGPU?
Considering that we have heard from multiple sources (including arkam) that the Wii U's GPU is feature rich (antonz said that it had 2012 bells and whistles) recent kotaku source said the GPU had a DX11 feature set. We can't just assume that the GPU is a R700 chip, obviously it's customized, heavily... So new compute shaders make complete sense. I would expect that they are using a lot of gpu components from their newest hardware line, and were added to the final silicon which is why devs have repeatedly been reporting improvements in dev kits as they got closer to the final kits.
Hmm. I know the difference will be noticeable, especially for those looking for the differences. But the idea of a well-put-together game on 360 v2.0 hardware being considered ugly or just "not good enough" is something I find comical, reeking of e-peen measuring contests.
In this context, I appreciate Nintendo's sense of self-preservation. They'll get to that "nit-on-an-asshair realtime rendering" level of hardware eventually.
lwilliams3
Member
You copied my post there without giving me the credit. lol
They are no real gpgpu. All modern gpus support compute shaders. Some are better at running this code. R700 is a gpgpu but that doesn't mean anything. This all been debated on beyond3d.
we had tons of leaks and none of that matches this. You can't just miss and match like this. They would move to a different core design like evergreen that been out for years. So makes no sense to start at r700.
Again more reading between the lines....
You obviously missed my response: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39276929&postcount=4304 Wii U's GPU can't be an off the shelf R700 if they support DX11... Those cards were DX10.1 so you are obviously jumping the gun here.
bgassassin
Member
So then if there are no real GPGPUs, then what are you arguing against then?
And continuing to harp on a placeholder GPU is irrelevant. Both antonz and myself passed along info that the GPU resembles more of a 2012 GPU.
They consider the Wii U close to that DX9-performance/DX11-capabilities combo
That is the quote you are basing this all on? Dx10 is the combo?
what does that mean?
They can obviously customize a GPU, the Wii U's regardless can't be a simple R700, since we have multiple sources confirming it's DX11 capable, which the R700 falls short of (obviously I would know, since I own a HD4870)
As for using an R700 in early dev kits, there are multiple reasons why a company would do that... The PS3 for instance used Geforce6 in their dev kits, and Xbox 360 chanced dramatically between early dev kits and final. What I am saying though is that early Wii U dev kits using R700s do not mean that they will end up with that GPU, obviously it's a custom chip that exceeds the R700's capabilities, so your logic is simply flawed.
As BG and I have pointed out to you multiple times, it comes from multiple sources, but yes again that quote does point to something exceeding R700's feature set. Performance btw has nothing to do with DX11, for instance my E350 is DX11 and that is an 80 shader 80GFLOPs GPU.
Ps3 and Xbox 360 changed gpu because that was the latest card out. It didn't use 4 year old design.
Please link to these sources on the dx11.
My logic is not flawed. It more wishful thinking and reading between lines.
The last leak dev docs match 100% to r700 class gpu. Not evergreen or anything else.
Dx11 tell us of the feature set not anything with performance.
Please link to these sources on the dx11.
My logic is not flawed. It more wishful thinking and reading between lines.
The last leak dev docs match 100% to r700 class gpu. Not evergreen or anything else.
Dx11 tell us of the feature set not anything with performance.
Hmm. I know the difference will be noticeable, especially for those looking for the differences. But the idea of a well-put-together game on 360 v2.0 hardware being considered ugly or just "not good enough" is something I find comical, reeking of e-peen measuring contests.
In this context, I appreciate Nintendo's sense of self-preservation. They'll get to that "nit-on-an-asshair realtime rendering" level of hardware eventually.
There's no deny that Nintendo makes hardware first and foremost for its own first party studios, if they were after this specific design to allow this specific power is because they don't feel like spending tons of money in making a cinematic Zelda (for example), they obviously take in account the budget for its games, making a monster machine is useless if itsn't used at fullest.
r700 doesn't tell us performance... maybe you just don't understand what that quote you put says... DX10 isn't a combo of DX9 performance and DX11 capabilities... That is just wrong on so many levels. DX isn't a performance mark at all, look at the GPU I pointed out (HD6310) it has 80GFLOPs, but it is a DX11 card.
lwilliams3
Member
Well, the R700 series was one of the earlier GPUs that officially supported GPGPU parts. They were not as efficient at it compared to the newer chips due to the lack of local memory for shaders and its VLIW architecture compared to GCNs. The inclusion of fast eDRAM for the Wii U's GPU can help with the first issue, and it is a giving that the GPU has been modified beyond what the base was. If the R700 is the base, the question is not "Is this a GPGPU?" but "Has AMD and Nintendo modified it to be a much more efficient GPGPU for better CPU/GPU interactions?"
bgassassin
Member
Which part?
lwilliams3
Member
bgassassin
Member
Your brain is a performance orphan like mine was a few posts ago.
bgassassin
Member
I see what you did there, but that's an insult to Chuck Brown.
nordique
Member
I just completely lost track of what you're trying to argue/what your point is
your presumptions hold less ground than the combination of guesswork and bits of knowledge bg is actually basing his claims off of, yet its perfectly fine for you to state your "factual" statements but other information presented to you has to be argued; of which you are arguing, trying to be critical of something, but I can't quite understand what you're critical of.
Its like a cyclical argument with out the rehashes...so I suppose that would make it a spiral...a spiral going in the direction of gravity...
I mean, I would love to see these "last leaked dev docs" of which I am unable to locate
How much wood would a Woodchuck Chuck if a Woodchuck could Chuck Brown.
I get back from my banning and the Wii U speculation thread is so much emptier.
I have a really random question for you guys too: Does anyone know for sure if I'll be able to use my existing sensor bar that I've been using for my Wii? It's been stuck with those included double-sided tape pieces to my TV for 2 years. I'm not sure I'll be able to cleanly take it off. :lol:
I have a really random question for you guys too: Does anyone know for sure if I'll be able to use my existing sensor bar that I've been using for my Wii? It's been stuck with those included double-sided tape pieces to my TV for 2 years. I'm not sure I'll be able to cleanly take it off. :lol:
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