Support NeoGAF

[dearodie]

More empty space. Go watch some speedruns of DKCR and you'll understand just how finely tuned their levels are.

You can only go above or below enemies/objects on a 2D level.

I liked DKCR, level design was generally fine tuned. I don't know if it would be considered more fine tuned than something like Mario galaxy level design or Mario 64, but that's not what I think you're saying.
I agree that design of either type is probably equally challenging.
What I contend with is: only being able to go above or below an object is more restrictive than being able to go above, below or around it; ergo the possibilities are larger in a 3D platformer, where there are additional permutations to account for.

 

[lamaroo]

I liked DKCR, level design was generally fine tuned. I don't know if it would be considered more fine tuned than something like Mario galaxy level design or Mario 64, but that's not what I think you're saying.
I agree that design of either type is probably equally challenging.
What I contend with is: only being able to go above or below an object is more restrictive than being able to go above, below or around it; ergo the possibilities are larger in a 3D platformer, where there are additional permutations to account for.

The limitations of a 2D plane require you to think more while creating a level imo. Players only have so many options to get through a level.

I don't think I'm doing a very good job explaining it, I'll blame it on being on mobile, but another example is, in a 3D game you can usually avoid enemies by just running around them. In a 2D platformer, you've got no other option but to go through them to get to the end, making placing objects and enemies much more crucial in a 2D game.

I'm not even sure if I'm arguing your point lol, but I do think it's harder to create good 2D levels than 3D.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

Good designed software is always time consuming, no matter if it is without a gui or with a gui, 2D or 3D etc. People without experience in programming should not try to judge how hard it was to make a game. If you don't like a game, then fine that's your good right. But downplaying work of others without the background is disgusting.

Also we don't know how much people really worked on dkctf.

And the argument that indies make a better game in shorter time is not true. The indie platformers which are as good as a Nintendo platformer like super meat boy take longer than 2 years.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Well designed software is always time consuming, no matter if it is without a gui or with a gui, 2D or 3D etc. People without experience in programming should not try to judge how hard it was to make a game. If you don't like a game, then fine that's your good right. But downplaying work of others without the background is disgusting.

Also we don't know how much people really worked on dkctf.

Exactly =). Demand is eventually what ultimately decides whether that effort was worth it or not.

 

[ozfunghi]

Good designed software is always time consuming, no matter if it is without a gui or with a gui, 2D or 3D etc. People without experience in programming should not try to judge how hard it was to make a game. If you don't like a game, then fine that's your good right. But downplaying work of others without the background is disgusting.

Also we don't know how much people really worked on dkctf.

And the argument that indies make a better game in shorter time is not true. The indie platformers which are as good as a Nintendo platformer like super meat boy take longer than 2 years.

Who made the argument that indies make better games in shorter time? Certainly not me. I said the amount of small indie studio's making 2D sidescrollers compared to full 3D world games, is indicative of one being easier to make than the other, given the same resources. Or at least that was the gist of the argument, before we got sidetracked with comparisons between DKCTF and Trine2. Which was just an example for that argument.

Also, what is just as disgusting as downplaying work of others without the background, is making assumptions about people you don't know, not having any idea or notion about what they are talking about. Making a game is more than being able to program software.

 

[stktt]

So, Tropical Freeze will probably be pretty fantastic, right?

 

[Funchameleon]

I'm not the biggest DKCR fan but I can't abide by Trine 2 looking better than DKCR or Tropical Freeze. Are you just dazzled by saturated colors regardless of application?

 

[Notorious_Roy]

So, Tropical Freeze will probably be pretty fantastic, right?

It is. I'm near the end, world 6-5, and it's absolutely amazing.

There's a lot of stuff to find and collect. Soundtrack is really good.

 

[KingSnake]

It is. I'm near the end, world 6-5, and it's absolutely amazing.

There's a lot of stuff to find and collect. Soundtrack is really good.

Is really the Gamepad screen not used at all when playing on TV?

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

So, Tropical Freeze will probably be pretty fantastic, right?

Of course!

 

[diaspora]

The game really does get much more difficult in that last 40% and then much, much harder in the second 100%. It's not a game I could get into speedrunning with as I can with NSMBU, though. It's just not as fluid or speedy on the 3DS version at least.

If a game isn't fun through 50% completion, it's not a game worth playing...

 

[Kurtofan]

If a game isn't fun through 50% completion, it's not a game worth playing...

It's fun all the way through.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

So, Tropical Freeze will probably be pretty fantastic, right?

I'm actually interested in how it will review.

That won't matter to me much but I have no idea how it will score.

Seems like a 9(possibly plus) game but I don't see it getting the praise 3D World got even though I expect Tropical Freeze to be the better game.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

It is. I'm near the end, world 6-5, and it's absolutely amazing.

There's a lot of stuff to find and collect. Soundtrack is really good.

Maybe you haven't seen it all but is the coverage already out for it spoiling the game or is that just a small sample of the craziness we have yet to see???

I remember the first game thinking I saw too much and I hadn't seen much at all but with Mario 3D World, I pretty much knew every level because I watched all the footage that was allowed before the game released.

 

[maxcriden]

If a game isn't fun through 50% completion, it's not a game worth playing...

It's fun (to me) all the way through. Fun and hard don't have to be synonymous. I'm just saying it gets a lot harder later in the game.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

That list is less than half their staff. And do we know how long all these people were involved with MK7? I mean, they did the tracks, but the engine was already running i presume. Their numbers are but a fraction of the entire staff working on the game.

Look, it doesn't matter. I'm completely underwhelmed with their output, and i'm completely bummed out they did another DKC. And even if this turns out to be the single greatest 2D platformer, it won't change the way i feel.

For a game you aren't interested in you certainly like to talk about it . As I said, compare those credits to the DKCR ones and that pretty much has all the designers, artists, and animators, along with a couple of engineers. The rest of their staff is pretty much sound guys and people who get "operations" credits. They worked on it for an entire year. Again, read the Iwata Asks.

But I guess like you said, it doesn't matter. You aren't interested in the game, so unfortunately you will just have to wait until they make something a little more up your alley.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

I liked DKCR, level design was generally fine tuned. I don't know if it would be considered more fine tuned than something like Mario galaxy level design or Mario 64, but that's not what I think you're saying.
I agree that design of either type is probably equally challenging.
What I contend with is: only being able to go above or below an object is more restrictive than being able to go above, below or around it; ergo the possibilities are larger in a 3D platformer, where there are additional permutations to account for.

Bingo. That's a huge reason why it is so difficult to make a GREAT 2D platformer. You have narrower parameters to work with. There are less options. It requires you to be even MORE creative.

It is. I'm near the end, world 6-5, and it's absolutely amazing.

There's a lot of stuff to find and collect. Soundtrack is really good.

Do you work for a reviewer? Can you let us know if there is a post-game world?

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Sorry double post.

 

[Sendou]

Sorry double post.

Make it triple

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Make it triple

I hope they don't ban me

 

[megabytecr]

It is. I'm near the end, world 6-5, and it's absolutely amazing.

There's a lot of stuff to find and collect. Soundtrack is really good.

Lucky you!! Great that it turned out great, from what I have seen it is, looking forward to it.

 

[D-e-f-]

How is it weird. You are comparing full 3D world games like MP with a "simple action based platformer" and claim both are equially hard to make. We are still talking about what Retro could have been working on instead of DKC, right? Both MP and DKC are by Retro, right? And you are still arguing that DKC isn't easier to make, right? Then i think it's funny you dismiss Trine2 as a simple game, without doing the same for DKC. I mean, you were arguing 2D platformers weren't easier to make? We were always comparing this, to something else Retro could have been working on, correct? Like Metroid Prime? And if adequate 2D games weren't easier to make, how come so many small (compared to Retro) indie devs with no money (compared to Retro) have made some fine 2D games, yet none has tried to make something like Metroid Prime?

No Man's Sky is made by procedurals. Once the basics are in place, the game makes itself. Also, please give another example. Because i can give you dozens of 2D platformers made by small indie studio's.

The Stanley Parable, Gone Home, Antichamber, Q.U.B.E., Amnesia, Dear Esther, The Forest.

You're making this all about perspective. It's not that 2D games are automatically easier and can be farted out by anyone. It's entirely about the scope of the project. Something like Trine is pretty similar to something like Q.U.B.E. - a bunch of puzzle rooms in a linear sequence. If you look at DKCR, you have a game that has to have 70-ish perfectly tuned levels for movement (for regular play and stuff like time attack mode), tons of unique background animations, scripts for level altering events, placement of collectibles, flow and unique mechanics. TF now throws even more into that with what seems to be more varied enemy types, even more stuff going on in the background, 3D camera, more playable characters and the necessary learning process for new hardware. It's very unfair to undersell the effort required just because you're not running around in three dimensional space.

I agree with the guy you're quoting. People over exaggerate DKCR's difficulty when it really isn't very hard. The few levels that are are the Temple Levels and the one extra level, but the rest of the game, even trying to get everything, isn't that hard. I only had real trouble on one level where you're running away from the bat on the barrel, and even then completing the level isn't hard, getting the G is. I find the hard mode tacked onto the game is just artificial difficulty. They had to flip the levels around and get rid of Diddy to make the game hard. The original DKC games didn't need a hard mode to be difficult, the levels were designed that way. There's nothing in DKCR that matches the difficulty of levels like Lighting Lookout, Animal Antics, Parrot Chute Panic or Poisonous Pipeline, to name a few. DKCR is difficult for Nintendo's standards now, but it wouldn't really be anything special back then. All the DKC games, along with SMBS 1, Lost Levels, 3 and SMW are much harder than the stuff Nintendo releases today.

Speaking over over exaggerating things, the original DKC games were not hard. I cringe every time I see this. Not saying they were easy like a Kirby game but them being hard is extremely weird nostalgia or something.

It's similar to how people wanna pass off ALTTP or SMW as being hard games.

So, Tropical Freeze will probably be pretty fantastic, right?

Yes indeed.

 

[jmizzal]

The Deluxe Digital Promotion is so good, I did not know they give you points for free preorder DLC, I got Batman AO yesterday and it had the preorder DLC with it, which you have to buy now, when I put in the code they gave me credit for it as if I brought it very nice.

 

[L~A]

As long as the thing you redeem a code for cost money (ie = not free forever, like Pikmin 3 DLC), doesn't matter : you'll get some points.

 

[Mockingbird]

So Nintendo Direct announcement incoming tomorrow for a Friday direct, correct? Those indy devs said there would be news of their stuff this week, so...

 

[maxcriden]

So Nintendo Direct announcement incoming tomorrow for a Friday direct, correct? Those indy devs said there would be news of their stuff this week, so...

That was for a sale, and for a news item last week for the announcement of Moon Chronicles 3DS. A direct could still happen, though.

 

[Roo]

So Nintendo Direct announcement incoming tomorrow for a Friday direct, correct? Those indy devs said there would be news of their stuff this week, so...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=758786

 

[Notorious_Roy]

Bingo. That's a huge reason why it is so difficult to make a GREAT 2D platformer. You have narrower parameters to work with. There are less options. It requires you to be even MORE creative.




Do you work for a reviewer? Can you let us know if there is a post-game world?

Yes, a Dutch gaming website. We'll have the review on 17-02, 14.00H CET. I haven't finished the game at the moment, so I don't know about the post-game just yet. Maybe after the weekend.

The normal levels themselves have tons of secrets as well. I guess there are at least two extra A and B levels in each world and even in level 1-1 I can't seem to find the last puzzle piece :lol:

Maybe you haven't seen it all but is the coverage already out for it spoiling the game or is that just a small sample of the craziness we have yet to see???

I remember the first game thinking I saw too much and I hadn't seen much at all but with Mario 3D World, I pretty much knew every level because I watched all the footage that was allowed before the game released.

I do media blackouts for games I really want to play, so I see lots of new stuff here. Just don't watch all the video's.

 

[megabytecr]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=758786

Is that just for EU? I wanted Toki Tori 2, Giana Sisters and Runner 2

edit: yes, seems to be coming to NA, probably tomorrow.

 

[Roo]

Is that just for EU? I wanted Toki Tori 2, Giana Sisters and Runner 2

afaik, yes, EU only.

 

[blu]

Not meaning to stir the argument that's been going for the past few pages one way or another, but I'll share my superficial impression nevertheless:

With some very minor, nay, unique, exceptions, it's as if somebody issued to all great nintendo studios an order to fall back to safety. The most ambitious/progressive/out-on-a-limb games I've seen by first-party studios yet are NintendoLand (some exemplary use of the platform's signature peripheral - the gamepad) and the Xenoblade sequel (by sheer scope and technology transition craftmanship). I'm not trying to downplay the new Pikmin, SM3DW or MK8, but they all seem like the next level of polish of proven formulas.

As it stands, WiiU has not had yet its Rebel Strike, Metroid Prime or, heck, Capcom's 5 (apparently not as a first-party example, but more of an example of something quirky, but ambitious and largely succeeding to stir positive response). I mean, the closest hit to such a thing has been a 2nd party effort by Platinum. On nintendo's own platform.

 

[megabytecr]

Not meaning to stir the argument that's been going for the past few pages one way or another, but I'll share my superficial impression nevertheless:

With some very minor, nay, unique, exceptions, it's as if somebody issued to all great nintendo studios an order to fall back to safety. The most ambitious/progressive/out-on-a-limb games I've seen by first-party studios yet are NintendoLand (some exemplary use of the platform's signature peripheral - the gamepad) and the Xenoblade sequel (by sheer scope and technology transition craftmanship). I'm not trying to downplay the new Pikmin, SM3DW or MK8, but they all seem like the next level of polish of proven formulas.

As it stands, WiiU has not had yet its Rebel Strike, Metroid Prime or, heck, Capcom's 5 (apparently not as a first-party example, but more of an example of something quirky, but ambitious and largely succeeding to stir positive response). I mean, the closest hit to such a thing has been a 2nd party effort by Platinum. On nintendo's own platform.

Yes, you are right. I am enjoying the hell out of the Wii U and the games in the library and coming seem great, but it is certainly missing THE GAME or GAMES. With the other consoles relying on graphics it is somewhat easy to show off the enhancements. I mean people are going crazy for a last gen definitive edition because of the graphics.

Either way, at this point, no big Publisher has shown something revolutionary, the new trend seems to be MP in living and persistant worlds. That is no excuse for Nintendo, as they chose a lower end of power with the gamepad, they have the obligation of developing a Revolutionary app. As great as Nintendo Land is, a mini game collection is not a good choice for a System Seller.

The creative ideas are flowing from the indie scene, indies are the best thing to come.

In the hardware I think Nintendo needs to compete, and if they want to add a new revolutionary hardware, that must be an addon.

 

[Mockingbird]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=758786

Oh those assholes.

 

[Richardbro]

2014 should be a great year for Wii U. Mario Kart and Smash will undoubtedly bring in fans of those games and also many people on the fence of purchasing a Wii U.

The new Zelda reveal at E3 will also bring in new hope for the system. Nintendo will definitely have their best E3 in years since they're in desperate mode now.

Not to mention when they drop the Wii U to $250, it will surprise no one when it start's selling more than its competition on a monthly basis.

A console in this day and age (when compared to 7 years ago) can't survive long term at a high price (anything above $300) when consumers can buy a phone or other related products for cheaper.

When consumers and especially parents see the Wii U at $250 and other systems priced over $350, it will be an easy decision for them.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Yes, a Dutch gaming website. We'll have the review on 17-02, 14.00H CET. I haven't finished the game at the moment, so I don't know about the post-game just yet. Maybe after the weekend.

Thanks! Let us know what you can. Is there a K level in addition to the A and B ones? K levels were the super hard temple levels in DKCR. What do you get for collecting all of the KONG letters in a world?

 

[ozfunghi]

Not meaning to stir the argument that's been going for the past few pages one way or another, but I'll share my superficial impression nevertheless:

With some very minor, nay, unique, exceptions, it's as if somebody issued to all great nintendo studios an order to fall back to safety. The most ambitious/progressive/out-on-a-limb games I've seen by first-party studios yet are NintendoLand (some exemplary use of the platform's signature peripheral - the gamepad) and the Xenoblade sequel (by sheer scope and technology transition craftmanship). I'm not trying to downplay the new Pikmin, SM3DW or MK8, but they all seem like the next level of polish of proven formulas.

As it stands, WiiU has not had yet its Rebel Strike, Metroid Prime or, heck, Capcom's 5 (apparently not as a first-party example, but more of an example of something quirky, but ambitious and largely succeeding to stir positive response). I mean, the closest hit to such a thing has been a 2nd party effort by Platinum. On nintendo's own platform.

This post somehow reads like there was more coming but you just hit the "submit" button too soon, lol.

So what are you implying? This is why the platform is in trouble? Nintendo has stuff up their sleeve? Nintendo is sabotaging their own system on purpose?

 

[ZSaberLink]

This post somehow reads like there was more coming but you just hit the "submit" button too soon, lol.

So what are you implying? This is why the platform is in trouble? Nintendo has stuff up their sleeve? Nintendo is sabotaging their own system on purpose?

Huh? I think what he says makes sense. Nintendo has made very safe games so far for the Wii U and nothing truly revolutionary in any of their franchises released thus far.

 

[ozfunghi]

Huh? I think what he says makes sense. Nintendo has made very safe games so far for the Wii U and nothing truly revolutionary in any of their franchises released thus far.

Sure, but it's not about "making sense", more like making an observation. So i agree, but is he implying something or not?

 

[Yagami_Sama]

The month is almost ending and no Nintendo Directs announcement.

Probably they will do one near the release of the new Donkey Kong, but c'mon Nintendo we need some new games to build the hype.

 

[jmizzal]

The month is almost ending and no Nintendo Directs announcement.

Probably they will do one near the release of the new Donkey Kong, but c'mon Nintendo we need some new games to build the hype.

They will def do one after the investors meeting prob next week on Feb 6th, DCKTF comes out in Japan on like Feb 14th so it should be first week of Feb.

 

[Spieler Eins]

Not meaning to stir the argument that's been going for the past few pages one way or another, but I'll share my superficial impression nevertheless:

With some very minor, nay, unique, exceptions, it's as if somebody issued to all great nintendo studios an order to fall back to safety. The most ambitious/progressive/out-on-a-limb games I've seen by first-party studios yet are NintendoLand (some exemplary use of the platform's signature peripheral - the gamepad) and the Xenoblade sequel (by sheer scope and technology transition craftmanship). I'm not trying to downplay the new Pikmin, SM3DW or MK8, but they all seem like the next level of polish of proven formulas.

As it stands, WiiU has not had yet its Rebel Strike, Metroid Prime or, heck, Capcom's 5 (apparently not as a first-party example, but more of an example of something quirky, but ambitious and largely succeeding to stir positive response). I mean, the closest hit to such a thing has been a 2nd party effort by Platinum. On nintendo's own platform.

Yes. And while the gamepad is obviously going to stay redundant (lol DK blank screen, lol MK honk, lol OffTV Play no one asked for), even games like Xeno that finally show ambition in other areas will then sadly go to waste, or rather be too late - they hopefully won't end up dying as badly as W101, but it's gonna be pretty rough regardless. When there's experiences not similarly available on other previous (or in the case of the 3DS, even current-) hardware, the WiiU will already have 2 years under it's belt with a fully grown joke stigma among more or less dedicated gaming fans, while PS4/Bone have also already long conquered the mainstream/casual awareness. For the few ambitious looking titles, I'm almost hoping for a Twilight Princess situation.

The month is almost ending and no Nintendo Directs announcement.

Probably they will do one near the release of the new Donkey Kong, but c'mon Nintendo we need some new games to build the hype.

Ten minutes of spoiling Donkey Kong, Mario Kart ,,end of spring'' release date announced - please understand, goodbye *waves hand*

 

[Draconian]

Started playing Batman Arkham Origins that I got for Christmas. It's a pretty good port. Cut scenes are a little jittery and the framerate dips sometimes, but I like having the map on the gamepad a lot so I don't have to go into the menu to see it. I also think it's neat how the gamepad is used like a telecom, so Alfred's voice talks to you on it instead of the TV. I'm interested to see how this one compares to the first two games.

 

[Yagami_Sama]

As it stands, WiiU has not had yet its Rebel Strike, Metroid Prime or, heck, Capcom's 5 (apparently not as a first-party example, but more of an example of something quirky, but ambitious and largely succeeding to stir positive response). I mean, the closest hit to such a thing has been a 2nd party effort by Platinum. On nintendo's own platform.

I totally agree with that.

Ten minutes of spoiling Donkey Kong, Mario Kart ,,end of spring'' release date announced - please understand, goodbye *waves hand*

The previous directs were like that...

I really hope something different, like the direct in which they showed Bayonneta 2. But since quite a long time ago I keep my expectations as low as I can.

 

[prag16]

Yes. And while the gamepad is obviously going to stay redundant (lol DK blank screen, lol MK honk, lol OffTV Play no one asked for), even games like Xeno that finally show ambition in other areas will then sadly go to waste, or rather be too late - they hopefully won't end up dying as badly as W101, but it's gonna be pretty rough regardless. When there's experiences not similarly available on other previous (or in the case of the 3DS, even current-) hardware, the WiiU will already have 2 years under it's belt with a fully grown joke stigma among more or less dedicated gaming fans, while PS4/Bone have also already long conquered the mainstream/casual awareness. For the few ambitious looking titles, I'm almost hoping for a Twilight Princess situation.



Ten minutes of spoiling Donkey Kong, Mario Kart ,,end of spring'' release date announced - please understand, goodbye *waves hand*

Don't worry, if games like that are sent to die on Wii U, they can always be revived on Nintendo's 3 teraflop 2016 console as DEFINITIVE EDITIONS.

And yeah... for the next direct I'm setting the expectations bar as low as I can... Date for Kart, massive spoilers for Kart/DKC, and ONE new announcement that is maybe sorta cool but mostly underwhelming.

 

[Buzzman]

Don't worry guys, more health and fitness products in 2015. They've got this.

 

[daripad]

Don't worry guys, more health and fitness products in 2015. They've got this.

Yeah, because Wii Fit U did gteat they are developing more of this lol

And another lol for Mario on May

 

[schuelma]

Don't worry guys, more health and fitness products in 2015. They've got this.

For the first time I'm considering the possibility that Nintendo really is giving up on the platform. No price drop, no new strategy. Some sort of 3rd pillar coming out next year.

I think the writing may be on the wall.

 

[jmizzal]

Don't worry guys, more health and fitness products in 2015. They've got this.

This is a 3rd pillar for casuals, it has nothing to do with WiiU or 3DS, its another revenue stream for Nintendo.

If you dont like it, ignore it

The core games are still coming

 

[maxcriden]

This is a 3rd pillar for casuals, it has nothing to do with WiiU or 3DS, its another revenue stream for Nintendo.

If you dont like it, ignore it

The core games are still coming

I don't even know if it's necessarily a game console. I don't know what the heck it's going to be. It's not clear it's a game console/system though, unless I misunderstood.

 

[D-e-f-]

I don't even know if it's necessarily a game console. I don't know what the heck it's going to be. It's not clear it's a game console/system though, unless I misunderstood.

You misunderstood. This is not a replacement for either Wii U or 3DS. This is a new thing, aimed to improve quality of life through entertainment. Whatever that means. He said it is related to games. It's an additional thing.

I don't get why there's doubt about Wii U now. One of the first things Iwata did today was reaffirming their belief in Wii U and their goal to put out improved marketing and titles that make good use of the GamePad this Holiday. It's their "highest priority" ...How does this mean they might drop the thing? That makes zero sense.